Генетичка генеалогија

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Zatvorena za pisanje odgovora.
Akay;

Бацио сам сада поглед на ТВ. Видим, у иначе поприлично доброј емисији "Балканском улицом", виђеније личности (водитељи и слично) РТС-а причају о свом пореклу.

Тако је на пример Слободан Шаренац (знаће мушки део форума ко је) пореклом из Херцеговине. Антрополошки, чист динарац. Шта мислите која је могућност да није И2 ? Чисто нешто занимљиво.

Verovatnoca da doticni gospodin nije I2a2 je manja od 0 % :) U pitanju je klasicni primer predstavnika dinarske rase.



Иначе, Кор, и мени делује поприлично пристојно текст тог нашег лика - хвала што си поставио. И да, када су та истраживања у Дагестану и да ли има нешто за наше крајеве најављено ?

Ja sam u kontaktu sa tim covekom iz Dagestana (on je doktor), Pravice istazivanje u aprilu i onda cemo da vidimo sta je sa Dargincima. Taj narod se mnogim parametrima razlikuje od Lezgina (jos jednog naroda iz Dagestana koji ima veliko prisustvo J haplogrupe). Lezgini za Dargince govore da su "kavkazki jevreji" zato sto su vrlo vicni u trgovini i radu s finansijama.

Da ja znam, kod nas se nece skoro provoditi nikakvo vece istrazivanje "na terenu" ali ce Anatolij Kljosov izvrsiti analizu vec postojecih podataka za podrucje Balkana. Prvenstveno ce se skoncentrisati na istoriju R1a-M17 i I2a2-M423 kao dva slovenska elementa. Rad po svim grupama bi bio previse zahtevan ali ce u narednoj fazi vrlo verovatno biti obuhvaceni E1b-V13 i R1b. Rad ima za cilj proveru istorijata vecine stanovnistva od Triglava do Djevdjelije i da se vidi od kuda su zapravo dosli i kome su najblizi.



Ја мислим да Хрватима то никако неће проћи. Од када је света и века што кажу, они играју такве игре. Може лако бити да им се то одбије од главу, само када би наше вуцибатине направиле добра истраживања или добиле неке паре од Ђелића/Динкића и екипе (маада слаба и преслаба вајда од тога). z:lol:

Pa i jeste stvar u tome sto ce se to na kraju odbiti od necije glave. Zato mi nije jasna kratkovidost manipulatora i smisao postupka. Da li neko zeli da zbog kratkorocnih imaginacija nanese stetu sopstvenom narodu :dontunderstand:

Када би се радило истраживање на простору који је чинио прву српску државу на Балкану (комплет Рашка, Дукља, Травунија, Босна, Паганија и Захумље) сигурно је да би И2 била најзаступљенија.

Mislim da si u pravu za sve oblasti osim Duklje.

Овде има доста података који су и овде били постављани. Ваља детаљније претражити.

- http://www.pouke.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=10445.0

hehe, naravno da ima posto je ovaj kopirao ono sto sam se ja mucio da prevodim :D


Нисам се дуго бавио овом облашћу, мало сам зарђао у овој празничној атмосфери. z:lol:

oporavljaj se i na posao. Nisi jedini koji je povukao rdju ;)
 
Што не би био у праву за Дукљу? Веће присуство Е1б1 због додира са Албанцима?

Pogrsno je vezivati E1b-V13 sa danasnjim Albancima, U pitanju je tzv. romejski element koji postoji i medju Grcima kao i juznim Italijanima.

po najnovijoj studiji odnos I2a2:E1b u CG je 1:1 s tim da je podrucje zapadne CG mnogo vise profilisano prema I2a2 znaci da je podrucje Duklje i danas vecinski E1b. Taj odnos je pre vise vekova bio jos izrazeniji.

Studije za Albaniju daju paradoksalne podatke da je na jugu Albanije mnogo vise I2a2 nego na severu ali su prezimena tih porodica poreklom sa severa, Upravo ti Albanski I2a2 moraju imati slovenske korene i jednostavno su asimilizovani u Albance posle dolaska Turaka. Isto tako je jedan deo Albanaca asimilizovan medju Srbe.
 
А какви су налази за Тесалију и Атину са околином (ако постоје)? То су била подручја великих албанских миграција крајем средњег века (Тесалија у 14. веку, Атика у 15.)

To treba traziti.
Jedno je sigurno, Albanski J2 se razlikuje od grckog. dok je grcki anadolijskog porekla, albanski je vise prikaspijskog, Vrlo, vrlo zanimljiva stvar.
 
Жељно ишчекујем та истраживања, чак и више Кљосовова него та о Даргинцима. Ипак ће то имати велики значај за нас.

Колико њему, отприлике, треба за једно такво темељно истраживање ?
 
Жељно ишчекујем та истраживања, чак и више Кљосовова него та о Даргинцима. Ипак ће то имати велики значај за нас.

Колико њему, отприлике, треба за једно такво темељно истраживање ?

Postoji dovoljno podataka koji su u slobodnom dostupu i preko kojih se moze odraditi studija te vrste, Podatke on ima ali ih treba pre svega preneti u format pogodan za obradu pa ih tek onda procesuirata kroz racunar. Ova prva faza uzima mnogo vremena posto nisu svi podaci u tzv. FTDNA formatu. Kljosov me je zamolio da mu pomognem u prebacivanju postojecih podataka u taj format a ja cu opet da zamolim sve one koji imaju dovoljno slobodnog vremena da pomognu meni da to odradimo.

Rezultat studije ce biti objavljen u AJOGG (americki zurnal geneticke genealogije) i mislim da ce biti za sada najznacajnije delo za geneticka istrazivanja vezana za istoriju juznih slovena, Kljosov ce pokusati tacno da definise podrucje od kuda su dosli juzni Sloveni (ako su) i istovremeno proveri ono sto je pisano u DAI.
 
Najveci deo, ali, ima jos nekoliko izvora:

Mavari, Sicilijanski Arapi, Sefardi, ( zapadna E) kao i direktan ulaz turske i kavkasko-čerkeske E, naravno i arapske zajedno sa njima.

M78 je glavna grana i nastala u Egiptu a iz nje je posle proistekla V-13 i to u podrucju anticke Grcke, Zapadniji delovi su pod V-65 i sirili su se iz zemalja Magreba do juzne Italije, Siicilije i Spanije. Bliskoistocni E su pod E-V65. Balkan je danas najvecim delom zaseljen sa V-13.
 
Još jedna stvar za E1b1...Dugo vremena sam vjerovao da su ukrajinski i poljski karpatski planinski narodi kao Lemko, Hutsuli, Bojki , Gorali i sl. dominantno I2a2 Dinaric, međutim to nije slučaj. U velikoj većini oni su E1b1 i svi oni imaju neku tradiciju koja ih veže za Vlahe jer ni Rumunija nije daleko. Inače ti Vlasi su mi generalno velika enigma. Gdje god ima Slavena ima i njih, a ne treba izgubiti iz vida ni da se sami Srbi pogotovo u Krajini nazivaju vlaškim sinovima ( i to više u istorijskim izvorima, najčešće pisma upućena austrijskim vladarima). Neki izvode i ime Poljaka, Leh, Ljah od vlaškog imena. Istočnoslovensko pleme Volhinjana ili Volinjana takođe. Srbi u Žumberku se pojavljuju u spisima i kao Rascijani i kao Srbi i kao Vlasi. Izgleda da su ta imena bila sasvim jednaka u tom periodu. Istovremeno niko nije nikada dokazao da su ti srednjovjekovni Vlasi ikada govorili bilo kojim romanskim dijalektom. Njihova imena i prezimena su dominantno slavenska čak i u ranom srednjem vijeku. Pitanje je dakle koji su to slovenski Vlasi potpuno drugačiji od Vlaha Rumunije i Tesalije sa kojima ni po jeziku ni po kulturi ni po genetici nemaju ništa zajedničko.
 
Taj pojam Vlaha je uistinu zakukuljen i zamumuljen. Nema verovatno te etnicke zajednice na Balkanu koja nije nazivana/prozivana tim imenom. Recimo, Srbi nazivali Dubrovcane a Dubrovcani Srbe.

Moje misljenje po tom pitanju je da su pravi-pravcati Vlasi upravo nosioci E1b i J2 (kultura "farmera"), dakle... neki stanovnici Balkana koji su nosioci romejskog jezika. Jedan deo njih je ziveo na podrucju koje su nastanjivali Sloveni i vidimo da je doslo do mesanja medju njima.

Da li si siguran da su gorepomenuti narodi vecinski E1b? :) Koliko ja znam, medju Rusinima postoji velika koncentracija E1b (oko 30%) i verovatno jedan dobar deo srpskih E1b ima svoju genezu upravo na tom podrucju.

Jos da napomenem cinjenicu da se mtDNK ovih etnickih grupa znatno razlikuje od onih u Hrvatskoj (tamo su vrskili istrazivanje) pa samim tim vrlo verovatno i od onih u Srbiji (posto opet nije znacajna razlika u mtDNK medju Srbima i Hrvatima).


P.S. ko ima malo slobodnog vremena neka se javi na PM da pomogne u formiranju tabela u ekselu. Nije tesko
 
Studije za Albaniju daju paradoksalne podatke da je na jugu Albanije mnogo vise I2a2 nego na severu ali su prezimena tih porodica poreklom sa severa, Upravo ti Albanski I2a2 moraju imati slovenske korene i jednostavno su asimilizovani u Albance posle dolaska Turaka. Isto tako je jedan deo Albanaca asimilizovan medju Srbe.

Ništa nije paradoksalno, ako imamo u vidu Anu Komninu. Onda je, čak na protiv, sve veoma jasno.
 
Који ли овај лик може бити антрополшки тип, а тек којој хпл. припада ? Сунце му жарено, што би рекли.




Иначе ово је филмски критичар који је Serbian film, вероватно свако ко имало прати дешавања у друштву зна о чему се ради, оценио као генијалан и уврстио га у топ10 филмова 2010. године. Иначе, лик је Амер из Тексаса.

Од када сам почео да читам о антропологији и генетици када год видим неког човека размишљам који је антрополошки тип и коју би хпл. могао да носи. Не препоручујем ништа слично. z:lol:


Ево неких веома интересантних коменатара на поменути филм , са ИМБД.

1. As a long time follower of Serbian events and how artists apply their talent in that country , I can tell you that deciphering this is so simple .


2. Quite simply this director hates his country and his government so much that he has come up with perhaps the most disgusting movie ever made in order to embarrass them . Hence also the title "A Serbian Film" because he wants that to be as clear as possible ; that this film is from Serbia . I also need to remind you that the government this director hates so much is a pro-western one which is associated there with a rise in crime , pedophiles and serial killers and all sorts of depravity in the media . Indeed , the fact that the Serbian government allowed this to be made and shown in Serbia is further testament to its corruption and sheer stupidity as it appeases the west's demands for "democracy" and "freedom" ( a.k.a "only money matters" ), and in the process further demonizes and damages the Serbian people .


3. That is it in a nut-shell . As for why some of you would want to watch this is beyond me . Apparently some of you think being disturbed is an artsy thing to do . Get a life people . Artists are dangerous people and some movies definitely should be banned .


Мало off topic, али мислим да неће превише шкодити.
 
Који ли овај лик може бити антрополшки тип, а тек којој хпл. припада ? Сунце му жарено, што би рекли.




Иначе ово је филмски критичар који је Serbian film, вероватно свако ко имало прати дешавања у друштву зна о чему се ради, оценио као генијалан и уврстио га у топ10 филмова 2010. године. Иначе, лик је Амер из Тексаса.

Од када сам почео да читам о антропологији и генетици када год видим неког човека размишљам који је антрополошки тип и коју би хпл. могао да носи. Не препоручујем ништа слично. z:lol:


Ево неких веома интересантних коменатара на поменути филм , са ИМБД.

1. As a long time follower of Serbian events and how artists apply their talent in that country , I can tell you that deciphering this is so simple .


2. Quite simply this director hates his country and his government so much that he has come up with perhaps the most disgusting movie ever made in order to embarrass them . Hence also the title "A Serbian Film" because he wants that to be as clear as possible ; that this film is from Serbia . I also need to remind you that the government this director hates so much is a pro-western one which is associated there with a rise in crime , pedophiles and serial killers and all sorts of depravity in the media . Indeed , the fact that the Serbian government allowed this to be made and shown in Serbia is further testament to its corruption and sheer stupidity as it appeases the west's demands for "democracy" and "freedom" ( a.k.a "only money matters" ), and in the process further demonizes and damages the Serbian people .


3. That is it in a nut-shell . As for why some of you would want to watch this is beyond me . Apparently some of you think being disturbed is an artsy thing to do . Get a life people . Artists are dangerous people and some movies definitely should be banned .


Мало off topic, али мислим да неће превише шкодити.

Amer iz Teksasa kažeš. Iz Tehasa autohton može da bude samo Mehikanac, pa ja tipujem da je ovaj dasa potomak nekog Holandeza ili Irca. Kad ne bi bio ovako zadrigo ko prasac mogao bih da se kladim da u njegovim venama teče krv Borebija odnosno antropološkog tipa bliskog Alpincima i Dinarcima. Vrlo lako može da se desi da junačina ima zapadnu I2b1 - M223 ali i normansku R1b ( koji je nastao pod velikim uticajem I1 i I2b na R1b koji se doseljavao severnom granicom Evrope) koji su se stopili upravo na području Zapadne Evrope i stvorili ovakve specimene.
 
Amer iz Teksasa kažeš. Iz Tehasa autohton može da bude samo Mehikanac, pa ja tipujem da je ovaj dasa potomak nekog Holandeza ili Irca. Kad ne bi bio ovako zadrigo ko prasac mogao bih da se kladim da u njegovim venama teče krv Borebija odnosno antropološkog tipa bliskog Alpincima i Dinarcima. Vrlo lako može da se desi da junačina ima zapadnu I2b1 - M223 ali i normansku R1b ( koji je nastao pod velikim uticajem I1 i I2b na R1b koji se doseljavao severnom granicom Evrope) koji su se stopili upravo na području Zapadne Evrope i stvorili ovakve specimene.


Ја би првенствено типовао на Р1б. Мада исто остале комбинације долазе у обзир. Ево и о коме је реч - link. Тамо има расних примерака за циркус.
 
Frekvencije R1a, R1b i E1b+J2 u Italiji:

http://2.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzJpCLLk1I/AAAAAAAAABI/IdIx2Kwz6DQ/s1600/R1a-low.png
http://1.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbvOICLLkzI/AAAAAAAAAAs/EUg7YM6EJZs/s1600/R1bFreq.png



http://4.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzM1iLLk2I/AAAAAAAAABU/RK3dJ_Xb6xw/s1600-h/Neolithic-low.png

http://4.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzM1iLLk2I/AAAAAAAAABU/RK3dJ_Xb6xw/s1600-h/Neolithic-low.png
 
Poslednja izmena:
E sad..... ide jedan (bar za mene) izuzetno interesantan post o prirodi R1b u Italiji:

Two distinct subclades of R1b have been widely observed and both are represented in the Italy DNA Project. R1b1b is most often found in Central Asia and R1b1c is most often found in Europe. Within R1b1c there are several further subdivisions recoginized in the current ISOGG tree, with the most common ones being R1b1c6, R1b1c7, R1b1c9, and R1b1c10.

R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 are defined by the SNPs S21 and S28, respectively, and both have been observed among our participants. Family Tree DNA does not currently test these two SNPs (EthnoAncestry does, along with some other important novel SNPs), but I expect they will soon. R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 are both associated with contiental Europe and the best thinking is that both originated from in the Balkans or Caucuses (though an Italian origin is, theoretically, possible as well).

R1b1c6 is most often observed in Iberia, while R1b1c7 is most often observed in Ireland. No members of the Italy DNA Project have been found to belong to either of these clades. For this reason, I am reluctant to encourage participants who are predicted to be R1b1c to undertake SNP tests until S21 and S28 (aka U106 AND U152) are included.

Few academic papers have studied the clades of R1b1c in any depth, and John McEwan and others have done an excellent job in collecting data from genealogists who have tested for these markers. I have created frequency maps based on McEwan's data, which show roughly the geographic associations of the four most common R1b1c clades.

One distinction that is potentially relevant to Italy involves a classification scheme that is different from the one used above. This is a bit arcane, but it involves the seperation of R1b1c into two different groups called ht15 and ht35. ht15 is found most in western Europe and ht35 is found most in eastern Europe and Asia. The ht15 and ht35 tests are not commercially available, and these types don't equate perfectly with the SNP-based trees that are currently used.

However one paper, by Cinnioglu et al., examined samples that were previously classified as ht35 for a number of SNPs and Y-STRs. It was found that ht35 contains an absurdly high proportion of DYS393=12. Interestingly, a quick glance at our project's results reveals that DYS393=12 is quite prevalent in Italy (especially southern Italy, as you'll see in a minute).

The vast majority of members of the common R1b1c clades have DYS393 values of 13. In Ireland, Scotland, France, and Germany the frequency of DYS393=13 among R1b folks is over 85%, whereas the frequenc of DYS393=12 is typically less than 6%.

In the Italy DNA Project, by contrast, the frequency of DYS393=12 is 28%: nearly five times as high as in western Europe.

http://3.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzVzSLLk3I/AAAAAAAAABg/TywIt0oBOEk/s1600/dys393%3D12_low.png

Looking at Italy by region using a larger data set, as the map on the right does, it becomes immediately clear that the DYS393=12 phenomenon in Italy is largely a southern one. Frequencies are fairly high in regions like Puglia, Basilicata, Calabria, and Campania.

In the north of Italy, where R1b is most prevalent, the frequency of DYS393=12 drops to levels more typical of the rest of Europe. Again, this points to the importance of gene flow from Celtic regions to the population structure of northern Italy.

How does this compare with other places?

Well, the Cinnioglu paper found that DYS393=12 reached frequencies approaching 80% in Anatolia and nearly 70% in ht35 samples which were largely collected from the Balkans and Georgia.

I also did a survey of geographical projects at FTDNA and used that data (plus a little more) to create the DYS393=12 frequency map of Europe .

http://2.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/Rb0OyyLLk5I/AAAAAAAAAB4/x0GGzLHjt6M/s1600/dys393%3D12_low.png

I found high levels of DYS393=12 among the Polish project and the Czech project, which is consistent with the notion that high levels of DYS393=12 are associated with a variant of R1b that arose in the Balkans or in Eastern Europe. I also found high levels of DYS393=12 reported in the Dniester-Carpathian region (near Moldova) in a dissertation by Alexander Varzari.

Even among projects that have expressed a great interest in ht35, like the Border Reivers group, I found the overall frequency of DYS393=12 to be quite low and not statistically different from the rest of western Europe. The background levels of DYS393=12 across Europe (about 3-6%) could represent normal diversity within haplogroups that had DYS393=13 as the founder allele or small amounts of eastern R1b that has migrated west.

All in all, the study of R1b in Italy clearly suggests that this haplogroup is associated with both western (Iberian/Celtic) and eastern (Balkan/Asian) sources. It is significantly less clear whether there is a particularly "Italian" variant lurking in all this data.
 
Koje gluposti ovdje se mogu naći!
Što se mongol zaletio boga ti !

Haplogrupa I ili po starom HG-2 je haplogrupa starosdjedioca balkana koji su se tu naselili prije 25 000 godina a inače potiče od haplogrupe J 2 koja uopšte nije semitska već je stara cijelih 50 hiljada godina mnogo prije pojave arapa i jevreja!
Prava Semitska haplogrupa je J-1 koja je karakteristična za arape i jevreje kod srba uopšte nije nađena ali je zato u obilju ima kod vas mungosa!
Drugo po ovom novom istraživanju kod srba uopšte nisu zabilježeni izvorno tursko-mongolski gen- markeri dok ih kod vas u vašem parčetu bih ima oko 7% !

Drugo dominantni genetski faktor kurganske kulture od koje potiču proto indo-evropljani je R1!
U dosadašnjim mjerenjima isti marker je zastuplen kod srba od 16% do 20% !

Iz toga dolazi zaklučak da smo mi srbi dominantno strosjedilačkog porijekla ali i da imamo dosta i slovenske krvi!
Ali pored svega srbi su jedan slovenski narod po svim svojim specifičnostima prije svega kulturnim.

Ljudi danas jednostavno ne znaju da je srbija kad je u 15 vijeku konačno pala u ruke Turcima pretrpila jedan strašni genocid!
Gotovo kompletno stasnovništvo je ili poklano ili odvedeno u roblje ili izbjeglo na sjever ili zapad!
Tek se jedan dio nižeg i srednjeg plemstva sklonio u planine današnje Crne gore muješajući se sa starosjediocima odakle je nacija ponovo stvarana u nizu doseljavanja nazad u srbiju!
Autohtono stanovništvo srbije je bilo potpuno zbrisano sa lica zemlje sa tim da se pdrazumjeva da su i u srbiji jedan mali dio stanovništva sklonio u nepristupačne predjele odakle je opet silazio dole!

Са овим се слажем!
 
E sad..... ide jedan (bar za mene) izuzetno interesantan post o prirodi R1b u Italiji:

Two distinct subclades of R1b have been widely observed and both are represented in the Italy DNA Project. R1b1b is most often found in Central Asia and R1b1c is most often found in Europe. Within R1b1c there are several further subdivisions recoginized in the current ISOGG tree, with the most common ones being R1b1c6, R1b1c7, R1b1c9, and R1b1c10.

R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 are defined by the SNPs S21 and S28, respectively, and both have been observed among our participants. Family Tree DNA does not currently test these two SNPs (EthnoAncestry does, along with some other important novel SNPs), but I expect they will soon. R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 are both associated with contiental Europe and the best thinking is that both originated from in the Balkans or Caucuses (though an Italian origin is, theoretically, possible as well).

R1b1c6 is most often observed in Iberia, while R1b1c7 is most often observed in Ireland. No members of the Italy DNA Project have been found to belong to either of these clades. For this reason, I am reluctant to encourage participants who are predicted to be R1b1c to undertake SNP tests until S21 and S28 (aka U106 AND U152) are included.

Few academic papers have studied the clades of R1b1c in any depth, and John McEwan and others have done an excellent job in collecting data from genealogists who have tested for these markers. I have created frequency maps based on McEwan's data, which show roughly the geographic associations of the four most common R1b1c clades.

One distinction that is potentially relevant to Italy involves a classification scheme that is different from the one used above. This is a bit arcane, but it involves the seperation of R1b1c into two different groups called ht15 and ht35. ht15 is found most in western Europe and ht35 is found most in eastern Europe and Asia. The ht15 and ht35 tests are not commercially available, and these types don't equate perfectly with the SNP-based trees that are currently used.

However one paper, by Cinnioglu et al., examined samples that were previously classified as ht35 for a number of SNPs and Y-STRs. It was found that ht35 contains an absurdly high proportion of DYS393=12. Interestingly, a quick glance at our project's results reveals that DYS393=12 is quite prevalent in Italy (especially southern Italy, as you'll see in a minute).

The vast majority of members of the common R1b1c clades have DYS393 values of 13. In Ireland, Scotland, France, and Germany the frequency of DYS393=13 among R1b folks is over 85%, whereas the frequenc of DYS393=12 is typically less than 6%.

In the Italy DNA Project, by contrast, the frequency of DYS393=12 is 28%: nearly five times as high as in western Europe.

http://3.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzVzSLLk3I/AAAAAAAAABg/TywIt0oBOEk/s1600/dys393%3D12_low.png

Looking at Italy by region using a larger data set, as the map on the right does, it becomes immediately clear that the DYS393=12 phenomenon in Italy is largely a southern one. Frequencies are fairly high in regions like Puglia, Basilicata, Calabria, and Campania.

In the north of Italy, where R1b is most prevalent, the frequency of DYS393=12 drops to levels more typical of the rest of Europe. Again, this points to the importance of gene flow from Celtic regions to the population structure of northern Italy.

How does this compare with other places?

Well, the Cinnioglu paper found that DYS393=12 reached frequencies approaching 80% in Anatolia and nearly 70% in ht35 samples which were largely collected from the Balkans and Georgia.

I also did a survey of geographical projects at FTDNA and used that data (plus a little more) to create the DYS393=12 frequency map of Europe .

http://2.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/Rb0OyyLLk5I/AAAAAAAAAB4/x0GGzLHjt6M/s1600/dys393%3D12_low.png

I found high levels of DYS393=12 among the Polish project and the Czech project, which is consistent with the notion that high levels of DYS393=12 are associated with a variant of R1b that arose in the Balkans or in Eastern Europe. I also found high levels of DYS393=12 reported in the Dniester-Carpathian region (near Moldova) in a dissertation by Alexander Varzari.

Even among projects that have expressed a great interest in ht35, like the Border Reivers group, I found the overall frequency of DYS393=12 to be quite low and not statistically different from the rest of western Europe. The background levels of DYS393=12 across Europe (about 3-6%) could represent normal diversity within haplogroups that had DYS393=13 as the founder allele or small amounts of eastern R1b that has migrated west.

All in all, the study of R1b in Italy clearly suggests that this haplogroup is associated with both western (Iberian/Celtic) and eastern (Balkan/Asian) sources. It is significantly less clear whether there is a particularly "Italian" variant lurking in all this data.

U prevodu šiptarsko - čerkeska posla na jugu Italije, do sada se verovalo da je južnoitalijanski a preko njega i albanski R1b ekskluzivno vezan za doseljavanje Normana na Siciliju , ali ,kao što se vidi dosta naroda je popunjeno u stvari sa Kavkaza. To je onaj dokaz koji si tražio da razgraničiš koji R1b je došao iz Evrope a koji je , u stvari deo turske invazije.
 
E sad..... ide jedan (bar za mene) izuzetno interesantan post o prirodi R1b u Italiji:

Two distinct subclades of R1b have been widely observed and both are represented in the Italy DNA Project. R1b1b is most often found in Central Asia and R1b1c is most often found in Europe. Within R1b1c there are several further subdivisions recoginized in the current ISOGG tree, with the most common ones being R1b1c6, R1b1c7, R1b1c9, and R1b1c10.

R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 are defined by the SNPs S21 and S28, respectively, and both have been observed among our participants. Family Tree DNA does not currently test these two SNPs (EthnoAncestry does, along with some other important novel SNPs), but I expect they will soon. R1b1c9 and R1b1c10 are both associated with contiental Europe and the best thinking is that both originated from in the Balkans or Caucuses (though an Italian origin is, theoretically, possible as well).

R1b1c6 is most often observed in Iberia, while R1b1c7 is most often observed in Ireland. No members of the Italy DNA Project have been found to belong to either of these clades. For this reason, I am reluctant to encourage participants who are predicted to be R1b1c to undertake SNP tests until S21 and S28 (aka U106 AND U152) are included.

Few academic papers have studied the clades of R1b1c in any depth, and John McEwan and others have done an excellent job in collecting data from genealogists who have tested for these markers. I have created frequency maps based on McEwan's data, which show roughly the geographic associations of the four most common R1b1c clades.

One distinction that is potentially relevant to Italy involves a classification scheme that is different from the one used above. This is a bit arcane, but it involves the seperation of R1b1c into two different groups called ht15 and ht35. ht15 is found most in western Europe and ht35 is found most in eastern Europe and Asia. The ht15 and ht35 tests are not commercially available, and these types don't equate perfectly with the SNP-based trees that are currently used.

However one paper, by Cinnioglu et al., examined samples that were previously classified as ht35 for a number of SNPs and Y-STRs. It was found that ht35 contains an absurdly high proportion of DYS393=12. Interestingly, a quick glance at our project's results reveals that DYS393=12 is quite prevalent in Italy (especially southern Italy, as you'll see in a minute).

The vast majority of members of the common R1b1c clades have DYS393 values of 13. In Ireland, Scotland, France, and Germany the frequency of DYS393=13 among R1b folks is over 85%, whereas the frequenc of DYS393=12 is typically less than 6%.

In the Italy DNA Project, by contrast, the frequency of DYS393=12 is 28%: nearly five times as high as in western Europe.

http://3.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbzVzSLLk3I/AAAAAAAAABg/TywIt0oBOEk/s1600/dys393%3D12_low.png

Looking at Italy by region using a larger data set, as the map on the right does, it becomes immediately clear that the DYS393=12 phenomenon in Italy is largely a southern one. Frequencies are fairly high in regions like Puglia, Basilicata, Calabria, and Campania.

In the north of Italy, where R1b is most prevalent, the frequency of DYS393=12 drops to levels more typical of the rest of Europe. Again, this points to the importance of gene flow from Celtic regions to the population structure of northern Italy.

How does this compare with other places?

Well, the Cinnioglu paper found that DYS393=12 reached frequencies approaching 80% in Anatolia and nearly 70% in ht35 samples which were largely collected from the Balkans and Georgia.

I also did a survey of geographical projects at FTDNA and used that data (plus a little more) to create the DYS393=12 frequency map of Europe .

http://2.***************/_dsGYkxd7z_E/Rb0OyyLLk5I/AAAAAAAAAB4/x0GGzLHjt6M/s1600/dys393%3D12_low.png

I found high levels of DYS393=12 among the Polish project and the Czech project, which is consistent with the notion that high levels of DYS393=12 are associated with a variant of R1b that arose in the Balkans or in Eastern Europe. I also found high levels of DYS393=12 reported in the Dniester-Carpathian region (near Moldova) in a dissertation by Alexander Varzari.

Even among projects that have expressed a great interest in ht35, like the Border Reivers group, I found the overall frequency of DYS393=12 to be quite low and not statistically different from the rest of western Europe. The background levels of DYS393=12 across Europe (about 3-6%) could represent normal diversity within haplogroups that had DYS393=13 as the founder allele or small amounts of eastern R1b that has migrated west.

All in all, the study of R1b in Italy clearly suggests that this haplogroup is associated with both western (Iberian/Celtic) and eastern (Balkan/Asian) sources. It is significantly less clear whether there is a particularly "Italian" variant lurking in all this data.

Bilo bi divno kada bismo uz svaki ovakav post dobijali i link izvornika.
 
Ovde treba razjasniti jednu stvar u vezi abreviature. Tekst koji sam kopirao je datiran na 2007 godinu i tada su jos vazlie stare oznake. Tako ovde susrecemo R1b1c koji je na gornjoj karti Evrope prikazan plavom bojom. To je u stvari tzv. Atlanski modalni haplotip koji se prostire po zapadnoj Evropi i odredjen je sledecim markerima:

DYS19 14
DYS388 12
DYS390 24
DYS391 11
DYS392 13
DYS393 13

Najvise odgovara haplogrupi R1b1b2a1a

Primetite da je na karti crvenom prikazana haplogrupa koja nosi znacenje markera DYS393 =12.
Isto tako, ta haplogrupa ima DYS461=11
 
Poslednja izmena:
stanje
Zatvorena za pisanje odgovora.

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