Slovensko nasleđe u Grčkoj

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AELarisa:
Like my grandpa's village.
It was called Nivoliani (my grandpa pronounced it as njivoljani, so i guess it is from njivo), now called "Megalovryso". The old tavern in the village still has the name Nivoliani, reminding the old name of the place and many people still call it with its old name. ;)

They also changed slavic surnames. At least those that they understood that they were slavic (our surname was not so obvious that it is slavic, so they did not change it).
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This name "smells" like Nevoljani, which would mean misfortunate people, troubled people, people in distress.
 
Mrkalj:
Well, isn't it impossible that Slavs settle in christian Eastern Roman Empire and have their pagan divinity toponym? :think: Naaah... (I'm being ironc. :mrgreen: ) Seems like someone's gonnna have to rewrite history books. And the day is coming really soon... :lol:
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The history books will not be rewritten. At least the ones of Greece.
it is very clear that they do not want the people to know the whole truth.
I was never taught the chapter of Stefan Dusan's empire for example. That chapter does not exist in the history books of Greece and many others. The Slavs are presented like nomads that came to Greece and then left. What I know is from my personal effort and because I found out that the etymology of my surname is slavic.

Mstislav:
https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/tstefanovicova-greece_e.html
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Thanks.
If you know more studies like this one, I would be pleased to read them.
 
Mrkalj:
This name "smells" like Nevoljani, which would mean misfortunate people, troubled people, people in distress.
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http://www.pollitecon.com/html/lerin-in-mourning/DOLNO-NEVOLJANI.htm

DOLNO NEVOLJANI ("LOWER MISERABLES" ;) )

40-Dolno-Nevoljani.jpg


The village Dolno Nevoljani was renamed by the Greek government to Valtonera. It is about 24 kilometres southeast from Lerin and about 10 kilometres southwest of the town of Sorovich. It is close to the lakes Vapchinsko and Zazersko, at 21 degrees 35 minutes longitude and 40 degrees 38 minutes latitude and 600 metres above sea level. Area is about 26 square kilometres.
The village borders the following settled places: to the north with the village Ljubetino, to the northeast with the village Gorno Novoselsko, to the southeast with the village Dolno Novoselsko and to the southwest it borders the village Cherkez Kjoj.
Before the start of the Greek Civil War the village had about 384 residents from differing backgrounds: Macedonians, Greeks-Prosfigi and Vlachs. They were employed in agriculture and raising livestock.

http://www.pollitecon.com/html/lerin-in-mourning/NEVOLJANI-(GORNO-NEVOLJANI).htm


GORNO NEVOLJANI (UPPPER "MISERABLES" )


NEVOLJANI (GORNO NEVOLJANI)
63-Nevoljani.jpg

The village of Nevoljani was forcibly renamed by the Greek government to Skopija. It is 2 kilometres south of Lerin on Nevoljanska Plain, which is formed by the Kula mountain to the north and Lopushnets to the south. The Nevoljanska River runs through the village. Nevoljani is at 21 degrees 25 minutes longitude and 40 degrees 45 minutes latitude and 690 metres above sea level. Area is about 4 square kilometres.
The village borders to the north with Lerin, to the east with the village Kuchkoveni, to the southeast with the village Maala, and to the west with the village Kalugeritsa.
Before the start of the Greek Civil War in 1945 there were about 1,750 residents in the village, of whom 1,375 were of Macedonian background and about 37 were Greek-Madzhiri. The residents were employed in agriculture, raising livestock, trades and other important activities.
During the Greek Civil War, the residents took little part in the organization of NOF and the armed forces of DAG. Participation was not possible because of the location of the village. The village had about 50 active fighters and during the time of the battles, 9 gave their lives and 8 patrots were shot in the Lerin prison.
They were:
1. Bishkarov Gjorgi
2. Grozdin Pavle
3. Deligochev Lazo
4. Dzolev Petse
5. Kiradzhiev Krste
6. Lazenkov Iljo
7. Lazenkov Tase
8. Luzov Vangel
9. Mazenkov Risto Tase
10. Mazenkov Risto
11. Meshkov Vasil
12. Mitsev Stefo
13. Nanov Tase
14. Nanov Petse
15. Strezov Stavre
16. Tupuliov Petse
17. Trpchev Petse
After the Greek Civil War and emigration and forced evictions, the number of residents fell significantly. The Geeek census in 1991 recorded there are 594 residents in Nevoljani.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mrkalj:
the village Kalugeritsa.
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:hahaha:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluđerica
 
AELarisa:
The history books will not be rewritten. At least the ones of Greece.
it is very clear that they do not want the people to know the whole truth.
I was never taught the chapter of Stefan Dusan's empire for example. That chapter does not exist in the history books of Greece and many others. The Slavs are presented like nomads that came to Greece and then left. What I know is from my personal effort and because I found out that the etymology of my surname is slavic.
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I can understand why it might have been necessary to downplay the Slavic heritage a century or two ago, when some in the West were bringing into question the Hellenic heritage of the modern Greeks (no doubt, you are familiar with Fallmerayer's racist theories about 'diluted blood'), and the process of consolidation of modern Greek national identity was still underway. Today, however, it hardly seems necessary. The partial Slavic origin of some of their ancestors in no way makes modern Greeks any less Greek, nor does it negate their Hellenic heritage.
 
Poslednja izmena:
haeul:
I can understand why it might have been necessary to downplay the Slavic heritage a century or two ago, when some in the West were bringing into question the Hellenic heritage of the modern Greeks (no doubt, you are familiar with Fallmerayer's racist theories about 'diluted blood'), and the process of consolidation of modern Greek national identity was still underway. Today, however, it hardly seems necessary. The partial Slavic origin of some of their ancestors in no way makes modern Greeks any less Greek, nor does it negate their Hellenic heritage.
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Well, i know that.
You should tell that to the idiots/babies that govern Greece and write the history books.
I do not think that there is any pure nation in the Balkans and Europe generally. Even ancient Greeks were not a pure nation/tribe, as maybe some people imagine today.
Fallmerayer wanted to tell the Europeans that wanted to recognize the first Greek state that all Greeks are Slavs, so "don't help them".
Germans and Austrians were strongly against the recognition of a Greek independent state.
The theory that modern Greeks are all descandants of the ancient Greeks was basically supported by those who governed the first Greek state and many of them had Albanian or Vlach/Aromanian origin. I have noticed that these people do not want to accept that their ancestors were not Greek, so they keep saying that we are all pure descendants of ancient Greeks and you are an "anti-hellen" if you say the truth. :P

I estimate that around 20% of the population of Greece must have some slavic origin. It is most dominant in Macedonia and Thrace (these Slavs are moslty related to Bulgarians) and then Thessaly (the Slavs of Thessaly are basically the same as Serbs/Croats/Bosnians).
You can see the racial map of Europe and Near East by the British historian Hammond.
It reveals the dominant race in each region at the beginning of 20th century (before the exchanges of population among balkan states and Turkey). As you can see, there is some yellow color (Serbs/Croats/Bosnians) in places of Volos, Larisa and Karditsa (this is where i come from). ;)

map1.jpg



Сребрена:
like Poljani - habitants of field/acre
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There is also a place in Larisa called Pouliana (pronounced puljana) -it has been renamed to "Kryovrysi"-.

 
AELarisa, do you perhaps remember that Austrian historian - I cannot remember his name but he was a leading Byzantine scholar, from back when Vienna was still the leading center of Byzantine studies (before Athens took over) - who had claimed that almost a majority of Greeks can track Slavic descent. He was a prominent supporter of a theory according to which the Slavic migrations had drastically changed the Greek ethnic structure to the level of almost a discontinuity. He was once in Belgrade; I think he had an argument with a Greek historian and some people didn't take his considerations quite too lightly. :D
 
Slaven777:
AELarisa, do you perhaps remember that Austrian historian - I cannot remember his name but he was a leading Byzantine scholar, from back when Vienna was still the leading center of Byzantine studies (before Athens took over) - who had claimed that almost a majority of Greeks can track Slavic descent. He was a prominent supporter of a theory according to which the Slavic migrations had drastically changed the Greek ethnic structure to the level of almost a discontinuity. He was once in Belgrade; I think he had an argument with a Greek historian and some people didn't take his considerations quite too lightly. :D
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Mmmm i don't know which one you refer to.
There have been many historians from Austria and Germany that were inspired by the Fallmerayer theory and claimed that most of Greeks are Slavs.
Even Karl Marx had said that most of Greeks are Slavs, because he also was inspired by Fallmerayer.
 
Mstislav:
Interestingly Slavs even came to the Peloponnese and Asia Minor.
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Yes, that is also true.
However the Slavs that settled in Peloponnese and Asia Minor were few compared to those that settled in central and northern parts of Greece.
There were also some few that went to Crete and some islands.
Note that the most Slavs that settled in Asia Minor were those muslim Slavs that left the Balkans after the Ottoman empire was defeated and destroyed.
 
AELarisa:
Yes, that is also true.
However the Slavs that settled in Peloponnese and Asia Minor were few compared to those that settled in central and northern parts of Greece.
There were also some few that went to Crete and some islands.
Note that the most Slavs that settled in Asia Minor were those muslim Slavs that left the Balkans after the Ottoman empire was defeated and destroyed.
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I think he had in mind the early, VII-th c. AD movements, i.e. the resettlement of Slavs by the Byzantine armies in Bythinia. Cf. Speros Vryonis, „St. Ioannicius the Great (754-846) and the «Slavs» of Bithynia“. Byzantion, Vol. 31, No. 1 (1961). (http://www.jstor.org/stable/44201834):

vryonis_slavs_bythinia.gif
 
AELarisa:
Yes, that is also true.
However the Slavs that settled in Peloponnese and Asia Minor were few compared to those that settled in central and northern parts of Greece.
There were also some few that went to Crete and some islands.
Note that the most Slavs that settled in Asia Minor were those muslim Slavs that left the Balkans after the Ottoman empire was defeated and destroyed.
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Depends how you measure the quantity. Slavs in Peloponnese (or more commonly called in the past "Morea" which is of Slavic origin denoting sea – e.g. the final point of Slavic migration) are mentioned very late. For example after the fourth crusade, the Slavs (Melingi tribe) from mountain Taygetus are the only people unconquered by the western crusaders. Laonikos Chalkokondyles writes in 15 the century there are villages in Morea that speak similar language like the one spoken in Poland and Russia. And so on..
Given the abundance of Slavic toponyms in Morea, one can actually argue that is the South with more Slavic origin than the North! The reason why it usually appears that North have more Slavs, is that in the North was much easier to maintain contact with the rest of the Slavs and hence much harder to assimilate whereas in the South they were rather isolated. Also consider that before the Turks, in the North occasionally the region would go under control of various Slavic states whereas in the South you had only the Byzantines and Western Europeans. Franks or Latins as they were called had no chance of changing the identity of local population but the Byzantines had and did.
Having said all that, even if you knew exact genetic composition and its breakdown on Slavic genes (if such thing can be defined in the first place) and other genes, it does not matter what your identity is. Identity is something in the head, something that is a construct of education, family upbringing , regional culture and so on.
 
AELarisa:
Well, i know that.
You should tell that to the idiots/babies that govern Greece and write the history books.
I do not think that there is any pure nation in the Balkans and Europe generally. Even ancient Greeks were not a pure nation/tribe, as maybe some people imagine today.
Fallmerayer wanted to tell the Europeans that wanted to recognize the first Greek state that all Greeks are Slavs, so "don't help them".
Germans and Austrians were strongly against the recognition of a Greek independent state.
The theory that modern Greeks are all descandants of the ancient Greeks was basically supported by those who governed the first Greek state and many of them had Albanian or Vlach/Aromanian origin. I have noticed that these people do not want to accept that their ancestors were not Greek, so they keep saying that we are all pure descendants of ancient Greeks and you are an "anti-hellen" if you say the truth. :P

I estimate that around 20% of the population of Greece must have some slavic origin. It is most dominant in Macedonia and Thrace (these Slavs are moslty related to Bulgarians) and then Thessaly (the Slavs of Thessaly are basically the same as Serbs/Croats/Bosnians).
You can see the racial map of Europe and Near East by the British historian Hammond.
It reveals the dominant race in each region at the beginning of 20th century (before the exchanges of population among balkan states and Turkey). As you can see, there is some yellow color (Serbs/Croats/Bosnians) in places of Volos, Larisa and Karditsa (this is where i come from). ;)
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You are perfectly correct. There are no examples of 'undiluted blood', as Fallmerayer put it, among the nations of Europe. His own nation is no exception. Moreover, there are no nations of note anywhere, in particular among those of great antiquity, which could possibly satisfy his ridiculous notions of 'blood purity' and undiluted heritage.

Indeed, one could even claim that the level of relative 'blood purity' is inversely proportional to the level of social development, given that 'purity' is primarily a hallmark of isolated tribes and other such more primitive social groups. That is to say, the most 'racially hygienic' peoples are the most 'backward' of all, which is hardly something one would aspire to.

I believe the Slavs you are referring to are those who were Hellenised over the last two centuries, but there are of course also those Slavs who absorbed much earlier. The Peloponnese in particular, as well as the area around Thessaloniki, are know to have played host to a significant Slavic presence since the 6th and 7th century. Thus, the total proportion of Greeks with partial Slavic heritage may in fact be greater, but again, that in no way brings into question their overall Hellenic identity.

P.S. That map leaves much to be desired. It shows 'Croatians' living as far east as the Serbian-Romanian border, which is an absolute joke. In the late 19th and early 20th century (the map is from 1916, if I am not mistaken), the Croatian presence was negligible even in Bosnia, let alone Serbia. Similarly, the Albanians are afforded a more than generous treatment.

On the other hand, the Serbs, who far outnumbered the Croats, are barely shown on the map. In similar fashion, the significant Greek presence in the coastal regions of the Asia Minor is completely ignored, as is clear from the map below.

Hellenism_in_the_Near_East_1918.jpg
 
Poslednja izmena:
Atentator:
Depends how you measure the quantity. Slavs in Peloponnese (or more commonly called in the past "Morea" which is of Slavic origin denoting sea – e.g. the final point of Slavic migration) are mentioned very late. For example after the fourth crusade, the Slavs (Melingi tribe) from mountain Taygetus are the only people unconquered by the western crusaders. Laonikos Chalkokondyles writes in 15 the century there are villages in Morea that speak similar language like the one spoken in Poland and Russia. And so on..
Given the abundance of Slavic toponyms in Morea, one can actually argue that is the South with more Slavic origin than the North! The reason why it usually appears that North have more Slavs, is that in the North was much easier to maintain contact with the rest of the Slavs and hence much harder to assimilate whereas in the South they were rather isolated. Also consider that before the Turks, in the North occasionally the region would go under control of various Slavic states whereas in the South you had only the Byzantines and Western Europeans. Franks or Latins as they were called had no chance of changing the identity of local population but the Byzantines had and did.
Having said all that, even if you knew exact genetic composition and its breakdown on Slavic genes (if such thing can be defined in the first place) and other genes, it does not matter what your identity is. Identity is something in the head, something that is a construct of education, family upbringing , regional culture and so on.
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The Slavs of Peloponnese were just some small communities. They survived for many centuries, but the slavic element was never renewed and finally they were all absorbed by the rest population of the Peloponnese.
The Slavs of central and northern Greece were huge numbers of people, they even formed independent slavic states or were part of greater slavic states.
And also during Ottoman and modern times, more Slavs had moved to central or northern parts of Greece. For example the Serbian refugees of WW1 to the island of Kerkyra (Corfu), many of which stayed there forever.
You can understand the difference and this is why central and northern Greece have more population of slavic origin than the Peloponnese. The most slavic surnames are found in Macedonia and Thessaly, not the Peloponnese.
 
haeul:
P.S. That map leaves much to be desired. It shows 'Croatians' living as far East as the Serbian-Romanian border, which is an absolute joke. In the late 19th and early 20th century (the map is from 1916, if I am not mistaken), the Croatian presence was negligible even in Bosnia, let alone Serbia. Similarly, the Albanians are afforded a more than generous treatment.

On the other hand, the Serbs, who far outnumbered the Croats, are barely shown on the map. In similar fashion, the significant Greek presence in the coastal regions of the Asia Minor is completely ignored, as is clear from the map below.
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Well, you understand that those maps are not at all 100% accurate. Sometimes the author makes false estimations either because he may be unaware of some facts or because he wants to make politics.
My point was that Hammond shows a southslavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.
 
AELarisa:
Well, you understand that those maps are not at all 100% accurate. Sometimes the author makes false estimations either because he may be unaware of some facts or because he wants to make politics.
My point was that Hammond shows a southslavic majority in regions of eastern Thessaly.
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Of course, and that point stands.

It's just that some here tend to take things very literally when they fit into their narrative, so I felt the need to point out the inaccuracies.
 
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