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-- Cyril Mango, verbatim from Byzantium: The Empire of New Rome:

"Was Hellenization, for example, a conscious aim of the imperial government, and if so, how was it implemented and with what success? And if it succeeded in the Middle Ages, why had it not done so in Antiquity under conditions of a more settled life and a higher civilization?

When we look at our scanty sources, we realize that the formulation of the above questions does not correspond to the Byzantine way of thinking. First of all, the very designation 'Greek', which we use so freely today to describe those Byzantines who did not belong to any alien group, is entirely absent from the literature of the period. An inhabitant of Greece south of Thessaly would have referred to himself as a Helladikos (a name already current in the sixth century AD), but he could have been a Slav as well as a 'Greek'. The same holds true of other regions whose dwellers called themselves by the names of their respective provinces, for example Paphlagonians or Thrakesians (after the Thrakesian 'theme' in western Asia Minor). Since, therefore, there was no notion of 'Greekness', it is hard to see how there could have been one of 'hellenization'.

The only passage, to my knowledge, that may imply something of the kind says that the Emperor Basil I converted the Slavonic tribes from their old religion and, 'having grecized them (graikosas), subjected them to governors according to Roman custom, honoured them with baptism, and delivered them from the oppression of their own rulers'. It has long been, however, a matter of dispute what the term 'grecized' may mean in the present context. What we do hear about, again and again, is the conversion of various peoples to Orthodox Christianity, be they Slavs or Muslim Cretans, and the setting up of an ecclesiastical organization. Here is how the Chronicle of Monembasia describes the activity of the Emperor Nicephorus I in the Peloponnese:

'He built de novo the town of Lacedaemon and settled in it a mixed population, namely Kafirs, Thrakesians, Armenians and others, gathered from different places and towns, and made it into a bishopric.'

Surely, neither the Kafirs (possibly a generic term for converts from Islam) nor the Armenians would have contributed to the hellenization of Laconia. The emperor's purpose was simply to implant a Christian population and set up a bishopric.

Equally telling is the case of the Slavs in Bithynia. We have seen that these were transplanted in very considerable numbers at the end of the seventh century and towards the middle of the eighth. Some two hundred years later, the Byzantine armament assembled in an effort to conquer Crete in 949 included a contingent of 'Slavonians who are established in Opsikion' (this being the administrative name of a part of Bithynia) placed under their own commanders. Clearly, these Slavonians still formed a distinct group. In the next century Anna Comnena refers to a village in Bithynia 'locally called Sagoudaous', presumably after the tribe of the Sagoudatai, attested in Macedonia in the seventh century. A little later the Slavonic element in Bithynia was augmented by the Emperor John II Comnenus who settled near Nicomedia a throng of Serbian captives. Serbian villages are still mentioned in those parts in the thirteenth century.

In other words, it is quite possible that the Slavs in Bithynia, or at any rate part of them, were assimilated by the Ottoman Turks, without having even become 'Greek'."


-- The Edinburgh History of the Greeks, c. 500 to 1500, by Florin Curta --> Page 288 and Page 289 quotes/summaries:

i) 'Kapheroi, Thrakesians, Armenians, and others from different places and cities' settled in Peloponnesos in the early ninth century, while Armenians 'and other rabble' came to Crete in the aftermath of the island's conquest in 961.
ii) The Kapheroi may well have been converted Arabs from the eastern frontier of the Empire.


PS:

Slavs in Tzaconia, per below.

Page 221, Footnote 124.

French:
"Philippson admettent que des installations slaves existaient a Vatika aussi, c'est-a-dire au sud de la fortresse de Tzaconie et pres de Monemvasie. Quelques noms de lieu slaves renforcent cette supposition."

English:
"Philippson admits that Slavic colonies existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some Slavic place names reinforce this supposition."

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=i_...ions slaves existaient a Vatika aussi&f=false

There is also the following testimony, which states: Ad partes Zachoniae vel Sclavoniae de Romania -- Maggior Consiglio, Deliberazioni. Zaneta, Pilosus 1287-1299, c. 361 Archives de Venise.

The Venetian Chancery continued to call the department of Monemvasia or Tzaconia Sclavonia until the fifteenth century. This denomination could have been a loan though - but we have seen that it was already circulating in the time of Saint Willibald.

Saint Willibald (723 AD) assigned to the department of Tzaconia the denomination of terra Slavinia, and this was centuries before the terms Tzaconia and Tzaconians even existed. We also have a testimony which calls Saccania sive Romania Minor (= Tzaconia OR Romania Minor).
 
Poslednja izmena:
Sorry, but the scientific facts do not agree.

Study proves Slavic DNA in Greeks of Peloponnese little

A new population genetics study proves that the presence of Slavic DNA in Greeks living the Peloponnesian peninsula was very limited. The DNA study, which was published in the magazine “European Journal of Human Genetics”, was conducted by genetics professor George Stamatogiannopoulos from Washington University in Seattle, and revealed that modern-day Peloponnesians have between 0.2% and 14% genetic make of Slavic origin. The study debunks a theory put forward by 18th century German traveler Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer in 1830 that the DNA of local population in the peninsula had all but been wiped due to constant Slavic raids in the middle ages. The study examined the DNA of 241 people throughout the Peloponnese between the ages of 70 and 90 (the oldest participant was 107 years old), whose grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. The results of the tests showed that the DNA of today’s people is closer in make-up to that of French (39-42%), Italians (85-96%) and Spanish (53-62%), while the contribution of Slavic DNA was less than 15%. The results also confirmed that people living in the areas of Mani and Tsakones differ in their genetic composition from the rest of the population in the peninsula and between themselves, with the influence of Slavic DNA being below 1%.

http://en.protothema.gr/slavic-dna-in-greeks-of-peloponnese-little-genetics-study-proves/
 
Sorry, but the scientific facts do not agree.

Study proves Slavic DNA in Greeks of Peloponnese little

A new population genetics study proves that the presence of Slavic DNA in Greeks living the Peloponnesian peninsula was very limited. The DNA study, which was published in the magazine “European Journal of Human Genetics”, was conducted by genetics professor George Stamatogiannopoulos from Washington University in Seattle, and revealed that modern-day Peloponnesians have between 0.2% and 14% genetic make of Slavic origin. The study debunks a theory put forward by 18th century German traveler Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer in 1830 that the DNA of local population in the peninsula had all but been wiped due to constant Slavic raids in the middle ages. The study examined the DNA of 241 people throughout the Peloponnese between the ages of 70 and 90 (the oldest participant was 107 years old), whose grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. The results of the tests showed that the DNA of today’s people is closer in make-up to that of French (39-42%), Italians (85-96%) and Spanish (53-62%), while the contribution of Slavic DNA was less than 15%. The results also confirmed that people living in the areas of Mani and Tsakones differ in their genetic composition from the rest of the population in the peninsula and between themselves, with the influence of Slavic DNA being below 1%.

http://en.protothema.gr/slavic-dna-in-greeks-of-peloponnese-little-genetics-study-proves/

You're preaching to the converted.
 
I give you scientific facts and you keep telling "the X writer said this".

The dialect of the Tsakones is a greek dialect and it descends from ancient dorian greek. The linguists that have studied it say this, i am not a linguist and i gave you a link about it.

The dna of the Peloponnesians is very close to Italians and Spanish people, very little (5-10%) is slavic and among the population of the Tsakones there is much less slavic dna than the rest of the Peloponnese.

But, ok, lets ignore all the scientific facts and stick to what a traveler in the Middle Ages said about the Tsakones or what Fallmerayer said. Seems good idea.
 
Back on topic.

The city of Tirnavos is close to Larisa. The name is similar to Trnovo. Most of its people have slavic surnames.



The city of Tirnavos is very famous for its carnaval.
Here people of Tirnavos celebrating the carnaval..

trnovo4.jpg


trnovo3.jpg
 
I give you scientific facts and you keep telling "the X writer said this".

The dialect of the Tsakones is a greek dialect and it descends from ancient dorian greek. The linguists that have studied it say this, i am not a linguist and i gave you a link about it.

The dna of the Peloponnesians is very close to Italians and Spanish people, very little (5-10%) is slavic and among the population of the Tsakones there is much less slavic dna than the rest of the Peloponnese.

But, ok, lets ignore all the scientific facts and stick to what a traveler in the Middle Ages said about the Tsakones or what Fallmerayer said. Seems good idea.

Preaching to the converted means that I concur with the theory and findings that the Modern Peloponnesians have little Slavic genes.

As I indicated above there were some Slavic settlements in the Vatika region, and also shared how the Venetian chancery continued to call the department of Monemvasia or Tzaconia Sclavonia until the fifteenth century, which was possibly a loan. Tzaconia was even called Romania Minor as I also mentioned. The terminology used by 'foreigners' in this specific instance could mean that they inherited/borrowed 'Sclavonia' from previous centuries.

As I argued elsewhere on this forum, I believe that some if not most of the Slavic-sounding toponyms were brought into Peloponnese by Vlachs, Arvanitovlachs, and Arvanites. I also believe -- based on sources / evidence -- (and have believed this from while back) that bulk of the Modern Peloponnesians are of Vlach and Arvanite stock which would fit quite nicely with the DNA scientific findings (Peloponnesians being closer in make-up to that of French (39-42%), Italians (85-96%) and Spanish (53-62%)). Moreover, Sathas argued long time ago that under the names of "Slavs" in Greece are actually hidden "Vlachs". I also presented some interesting arguments on this forum showing that Arvanites who settled in the Peloponnese were at least in part Albanized (in language) Romanic/Latin populations with origins from Italy.

Also, as we saw, significant numbers of eastern colonists such as Kapheroi, Thrakesians, Armenians, and others from different places and cities were settled in Laconia (and Tzaconia) in the early ninth century. This may explain why the results also confirmed that people living in the areas of Mani and Tsakones differ in their genetic composition from the rest of the population in the peninsula and between themselves.
 
The Arvanites and the Vlachs are partially Slavs. So, this explains why some slavic words were used by them.

However, it is clear that we have 3 great waves of migrations in Greece.

The first one were the Slavs (Sklaveni), then the Vlachs together with Bulgarians and then the Arvanites together with Vlachs and Slavs that lived in Albania and Macedonia. And all the Ottoman period more Slavs, Arvanites and Vlachs migrated, especially in the north. Note that the Slavs were also mixed up with other people of the Balkans before moving to Greece.

So, we cannot be very certain on how many they were and who gave the slavic toponyms, but it is clear that the majority of the toponyms were given by slavic speaking people (not necessarily all of them of some slavic race). Some others maybe were slavic words used by non slavic speaking people. This is why you have to look at the dna, not only the toponyms and historical facts.
 
Sorry, but the scientific facts do not agree.

Study proves Slavic DNA in Greeks of Peloponnese little

A new population genetics study proves that the presence of Slavic DNA in Greeks living the Peloponnesian peninsula was very limited. The DNA study, which was published in the magazine “European Journal of Human Genetics”, was conducted by genetics professor George Stamatogiannopoulos from Washington University in Seattle, and revealed that modern-day Peloponnesians have between 0.2% and 14% genetic make of Slavic origin. ...

This very study of Stamatogiannopoulos is criticised in one very popular blog - eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk. See the entry Greek confirmation bias from March 2017:

*******
A new paper at the EJHG claims that Slavic admixture in Peloponnesean Greeks averages a few per cent at best (see abstract below). However, I'd say the authors are making two potentially erroneous assumptions: 1) that Slavic invaders arrived in Greece straight from the Slavic homeland, probably located somewhere in East Central or Eastern Europe, and 2) modern-day Northern Slavs (Belarusians, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians) are accurate proxies for these ancient invaders. ...
*******
 
*******
A new paper at the EJHG claims that Slavic admixture in Peloponnesean Greeks averages a few per cent at best (see abstract below). However, I'd say the authors are making two potentially erroneous assumptions: 1) that Slavic invaders arrived in Greece straight from the Slavic homeland, probably located somewhere in East Central or Eastern Europe, and 2) modern-day Northern Slavs (Belarusians, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians) are accurate proxies for these ancient invaders. ...
*******
Both of these assumptions are clearly wrong. Here's a paper on the subject



pt4X80g.jpg
 
У прилог мојој тврдњи ево једног "уљеза". Обе речи имају корен у грчкој речи Περιβολι (башта). Треба бити опрезан јер онима који знају грчки неке од тврдњи могу да буду духовите... Међутим теснац ка Светој Гори зове се Провлака.

Vidiš, i ova reč, kod nas usvojena kao perivoj, bi mogla upućivati na slovensko poreklo ako se setimo kazivanja kolege Snoudena o tome da se njiva kaže i vlaka, verovatno zato jer njome volovi "vlače" plug.

- - - - - - - - - -

This very study of Stamatogiannopoulos is criticised in one very popular blog - eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk. See the entry Greek confirmation bias from March 2017:

*******
A new paper at the EJHG claims that Slavic admixture in Peloponnesean Greeks averages a few per cent at best (see abstract below). However, I'd say the authors are making two potentially erroneous assumptions: 1) that Slavic invaders arrived in Greece straight from the Slavic homeland, probably located somewhere in East Central or Eastern Europe, and 2) modern-day Northern Slavs (Belarusians, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians) are accurate proxies for these ancient invaders. ...
*******

Good point.
 
This very study of Stamatogiannopoulos is criticised in one very popular blog - eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk. See the entry Greek confirmation bias from March 2017:

*******
A new paper at the EJHG claims that Slavic admixture in Peloponnesean Greeks averages a few per cent at best (see abstract below). However, I'd say the authors are making two potentially erroneous assumptions: 1) that Slavic invaders arrived in Greece straight from the Slavic homeland, probably located somewhere in East Central or Eastern Europe, and 2) modern-day Northern Slavs (Belarusians, Poles, Russians and Ukrainians) are accurate proxies for these ancient invaders. ...
*******
Ok, I get your point.
However, in the Peloponnese it is rare to find someone with slavic look or a slavic surname. And very few slavic words or phrases have survived there. In the Peloponnese you can find people that still speak or understand Arvanitika (Toskian dialect of Albanian mixed up with Greek) but not slavic.

So, for example a Dinarid that had a slavic speaking ancestor, it is very difficult today to say if he has slavic ancestry, because he could also be a Vlach or an Arvanite. And even if he has a slavic surname, this could be a loan from slavic languages or a slavic toponym that was converted to a surname.

I will give you an example.
There is a place in central Greece called Kaitsa and it sounds (and must have been) a slavic toponym. Later it was abandoned and Vlachs and Albanians moved to that place. Those Vlachs - Albanians from there may have the surname Kaitsas (the guy from Kaitsa) but this doesn't mean they have any connection to Slavs. And let's say that this guy is a Dinarid. Someone who sees him and listens the surname can easily think that he is a Slav.

This is why you have to see very carefully what may be behind a slavic toponym or surname. For someone that does not know much about the history of each place and surname, it can be very easy to end up with totally false conclusions.
 
Koukourava (Kukurava).

2 places with exactly the same name.
The one is right above Volos and still appears on the maps with its original name, the other is close to Larisa and has been renamed to Amygdali (however still some locals use its old name).

1. Koukourava of Volos.

kukurava1.jpg


koukourava2.jpg


koukourava.jpg



2. Koukourava ("Amygdali") of Larisa.

kukurava2.jpg


amygdali.jpg
 
Koukourava (Kukurava).

2 places with exactly the same name.
The one is right above Volos and still appears on the maps with its original name, the other is close to Larisa and has been renamed to Amygdali (however still some locals use its old name).

1. Koukourava of Volos.[/U

2. Koukourava ("Amygdali") of Larisa.



In the particular case it is good that they changed the name. Kukurava sounds like kuca k u r a v a or whorehouse:)
 
1) The Lost Villages of Arcadia

http://arcadia.ceid.upatras.gr/arkadia/engversion/history/lostvillages.html

At the beginning of the decade of 1930 under the influence of the recent tragic historical events and under the influence of the "generation of the Thirties" (a group of poets and writters that brought fresh air in the Greek Letters ex Seferis) E. Venizelos, formed another commitee in order to rename the villages of Peloponnese. For example in 1931, the gortinian village Dragomano changed its name to Kotilio! From 1931 - 1933 all the villages of Arcadia changed their names. Every single change was published as a law of the Greek State.

What were the criteria of choosing a new name for a village? First of all the ancient Greek history of the place, IF it existed any. For Arcadia, the "Guide to Greece" of Pausanias was the only (but great) help. For some cases the identification was not difficult. It was easy to match Tsipiana to Nestani or Dragomano to Kotilio. If they hadnt such a clue they translated the turkish or slavonic name to Greek! Arachova in slavonic means nut tree so, it turned into Karyes (nut tree in ancient Greek)! Or they picked - up a name related to the Greek Orthodox Church, as Giousi to Paragitsa.

Some other examples of Arcadian villages, whose names have been changed are: Ahouria (turkish name) turned to Stadion (Tegea), (I)Braimafenti (turkish name) turned to Episkopi (Tegea), (O)Martsaousi (turkish name) turned to Akra (Tegea), Piali (turkish name) turned to Alea (Tegea), Zeli turned to Kandalos (Tegea), Kapareli turned to Manthirea (Tegea), Glanitsia turned to Migdalia (Gortinia), Bedeni turned to Skopi (near Tripolis), Bezenikos turned to Blaherna, Granitsa turned to Nymphasia, Karnesi turned to Prassino, Toposta turned to Theoktisto, Kerpini turned to Monastra, Gartzenikos turned to Elati and Glogova turned to Drakovouni.

This is the brief story of the"lost" villages!

2) "For his part, François Pouqueville evokes colonies established by refugees of Slavic and Vlach origin from northern Greece and if Slavo-Vlach etymologies are good, Tripolitsa could be one of them."

La ville fut fondée vers le xive siècle. Son nom grec de « Tripolitsa » pourrait peut-être se référer aux trois villes alors abandonnées de Mantinée, Tégée et Pallantion. Au Moyen Âge, elle apparaît sous les noms de « Dobrolica » signifiant en slave, selon les interprétations, « bon lieu » ou « ville aux chênes », de « Drobolitsa » signifiant en valaque « morcelé, fragmenté, partagé »2, de « Tripolizza » pour les génois et les vénitiens au xviie siècle, et de « Tarabolusa » pour les turcs3. De son côté, François Pouqueville évoque des colonies établies par des réfugiés d'origine slave et valaque venus du nord de la Grèce4 et si les étymologies slavo-valaques sont les bonnes, Tripolitsa pourrait être l'une d'elles.

François Pouqueville, Mémoire sur les colonies valaques établies dans les montagnes de la Grèce depuis Fienne jusque dans la Morée, Ernest Desplaces, Paris 1834, dans Louis Gabriel Michaud, « Biographie Universelle » vol. 34, sur

Mémoire sur les colonies valaques établies dans les montagnes de la Grèce
https://books.google.fr/books?id=bu...ablies dans les montagnes de la Grèce&f=false

3) Οι Βλάχοι στην Κορινθία --> The Vlachs in Corinthia (by Τρίτος Μ.)
http://ikee.lib.auth.gr/record/222443?ln=en

4) Seyed Mohamed Taghi Shariat-Panahi, Ἀρβανῖτες καί Βλάχοι στόν Καζᾶ τῆς Κορίνθου: βάση τῶν ὀθωμανικῶν ἐγγράφων (15ος-18ος αἰ.). --> Albanians and Vlachs in the Kaza of Corinth according to the Ottoman registers (15th-18th century).

Reference on page 25:
http://www.academia.edu/16774681/Θ_...ternational_Congress_of_Peloponnesian_Studies
 
Poslednja izmena:
Women of Larisa with traditional dresses from different places of Larisa.
I have seen some similar from slavic countries, but i want to hear your opinion.
Do you know any similar to those coming from slavic countries? Please say what region and country they are from.

larisa.jpg
 


In an interview for Kathimerini, Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy made the following statement:

"The situation during the 19th century was different... In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become one national body. And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age we should be under the illusion that we are descendants of Pericles."
 
The name 'Great Vlachia' was used in the period from the late 12th to early 14th century. It was likely reflective of a larger than average concentration of 'Vlach' population in Thessaly, at that time, but it should by no means be taken as proof of 'Vlachs' being the dominant group in that area. We know for a fact that both Greeks and Slavs were present in the region, and that the so-called 'Vlach uprising' of 1066 was certainly not a solely 'Vlach' affair. After all, the leader of the uprising was a Greek.

As for the comment by professor Veremis, indeed, the Greeks should not be under the illusion that they are solely the descendants of Pericles - which is to say, the Ancient Greeks. Their 'blood' is 'diluted', as is that of virtually all other nations. However, it is an indisputable fact that the modern Greeks, as a nation, partially descend from Ancient Greeks, and are their heirs, in every sense of the world (as are we all, in some ways).
 
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