Slovensko nasleđe u Grčkoj

[AELarisa]

The name 'Great Vlachia' was used in the period from the late 12th to early 14th century. It was likely reflective of a larger than average concentration of 'Vlach' population in Thessaly, at that time, but it should by no means be taken as proof of 'Vlachs' being the dominant group in that area. We know for a fact that both Greeks and Slavs were present in the region, and that the so-called 'Vlach uprising' of 1066 was certainly not a solely 'Vlach' affair. After all, the leader of the uprising was a Greek.

As for the comment by professor Veremis, indeed, the Greeks should not be under the illusion that they are solely the descendants of Pericles - which is to say, the Ancient Greeks. Their 'blood' is 'diluted', as is that of virtually all other nations. However, it is an indisputable fact that the modern Greeks, as a nation, partially descend from Ancient Greeks, and are their heirs, in every sense of the world (as are we all, in some ways).

The leader of the uprising was someone from Larisa, named Nikolitsas (similar to Nikolic).

The Vlachs are mostly in the plain and western parts of Thessaly. The Slavs dominate the eastern parts.
The Arvanites of Thessaly left it very soon and moved to the south.

Also note that the Vlachs were given many privileges by the Byzantines, so the Slavs preferred to present themselves as Vlachs. Some part of the Vlachs in Thessaly are vlachisized Slavs.

 

[haeul]

The leader of the uprising was someone from Larisa, named Nikolitsas (similar to Nikolic).

The Vlachs are mostly in the plain and western parts of Thessaly. The Slavs dominate the eastern parts.
The Arvanites of Thessaly left it very soon and moved to the south.

Also note that the Vlachs were given many privileges by the Byzantines, so the Slavs preferred to present themselves as Vlachs. Some part of the Vlachs in Thessaly are vlachisized Slavs.

That's a good point. It should be noted, however, that the Vlach privileges had to do with their position as shepherds, rather than their separate ethnic identity (using the term somewhat loosely, as we don't really know much about these Vlachs).

 

[Carlin15]

Severna Grcka, selo

 

[sokolovsky.mkd]

Severna Grcka, selo

E to su pravi "Endopi",starosedeoci Makedonije, kako su ih zvali doseljeni Grci iz Male Azije, nakon poraza od Turske i razmene stanovnistva.
Niti promena toponima, niti grciziranje imena i prezimena, jos uvek nisu doveli do celosne "homogenizacije", "grcke" Makedonije.

 

[Mrkalj]

E to su pravi "Endopi",starosedeoci Makedonije, kako su ih zvali doseljeni Grci iz Male Azije, nakon poraza od Turske i razmene stanovnistva.
Niti promena toponima, niti grciziranje imena i prezimena, jos uvek nisu doveli do celosne "homogenizacije", "grcke" Makedonije.

Stari Grci ne bi imali polise - gradove-države da svuda okolo nisu bili Sloveni.

 

[AELarisa]

Svadba je golema.

 

[Carlin15]

Stari Grci ne bi imali polise - gradove-države da svuda okolo nisu bili Sloveni.

The Twentieth Century - Volume 6 - Str. 932 i 933, god. 1879.

"We have no accurate record of the proportion of free citizens who alone constituted the true Hellenes, but they were at most a small minority among the large population of helots and of slaves. The Greek world was composed of municipal aristocracies — gentlemen who lived in the towns and owned farms at some distance, which they worked almost exclusively by slaves. These slaves were chiefly Thracians and Slavonians ; and, together with those of the towns, formed at least one-half of the population."

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=51...ves were chiefly Thracians Slavonians&f=false

 

[AELarisa]

The Twentieth Century - Volume 6 - Str. 932 i 933, god. 1879.

"We have no accurate record of the proportion of free citizens who alone constituted the true Hellenes, but they were at most a small minority among the large population of helots and of slaves. The Greek world was composed of municipal aristocracies — gentlemen who lived in the towns and owned farms at some distance, which they worked almost exclusively by slaves. These slaves were chiefly Thracians and Slavonians ; and, together with those of the towns, formed at least one-half of the population."

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=51...ves were chiefly Thracians Slavonians&f=false

Have you found anything about the slavic villages of Larisa and Volos region?
I am very interested about references on the movements of slavic populations, especially at around 1500-1600 AD.

 

[AELarisa]

Unfortunately, I have not found anything about slavophone villages of Larissa and Volos areas. These regions, and the inhabitants (modern ethnic Greeks) of these regions, are mostly of Vlach origin (of varied Vlach groups, such as Sarakatsani, Koupatsiari, Arvanitovlachs - but there are others as well). A while back I found a site that talked about the origin of the residents of Makrychori village, which is located in the regional unit of Larissa.

There were some families from slavophone villages of Macedonia that at some point settled in Makrychori:
Families from slavophone villages of Macedonia: Zisis, Korovesis, Kotsopoulos, Tourlakopoulos.

The URL was this (it no longer exists):
http://hellas.teipir.gr/thesis/larisa/makrixori/english/en_family.htm

Here is the list:

Families of Sarakatsanaioi (Hellenized Vlachs): Vovousas, Georgakis, Evagelopoulos, Katsigiannis, Kolonas, Kontokostas, Koutelodas, Mandalos (they are in Australia) Milios, Mitsigiannis, Boutos, Liapis, Nasiaras, Parlatzas, Pelekoudas, Tsiakos, Stathis, Haidarlis, Hytas.

Families of Vlachs from Zagori: Ilos, Samoladas, Photiou.

Families of Vlachs from Kokonopilos: Bekiaris, Belogias, Bourojikas, Fakas.

Families of Vlachs from Perivoli: Saiti, Andreou, Vlagas, Voulagas, Dardakoulis, Zoulfou, Karategos, Mpolias, Mourtzilas, Bellos, Nastos Naris, Palatos, Fousikas, Seligounas, Puspurikas, Poutsiakas, Rombas, Stamatis, Tikos, Teas, Topis, Sympetheris, Skribas.

Families of Vlachs from Samarina: Avelas, Agorogiannis, Vrazitikos, Gerasis, Gabetas, Gravanis, Ligouras, Lioupas, Samaras*, Sarmaniotis, Stimoniaris, Tsaknakis.

Nope, the territory i am talking about has no Vlachs and no Macedonians.
It is a place full of Slavic (Serbocroatian) toponyms and surnames, that many of them do not have any meaning in Vlach or Macedonian language.
Almost all of these villages appear for the very first time at around 16th-17th century, but i have no clue where they came from (obviously from some place inhabited by Slavs in the Balkans, but where?).
Also in some maps it is shown that it is inhabited by Serbs/Croats.

Some of the slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on.


This is the territory i am interested about:

As you can see, there are no Vlachs there. Just a few at the suburbs of Volos.

 

[Carlin15]

"Some of the slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on."

FYI - It might be incorrect to consider some of these surnames as pure Slavic names.

1) Koukouras --> Kukur(+as).

Latin cucurum: quiver.
https://mymemory.translated.net/en/Latin/English/cucurum

The same word, kukur, is found in Albanian - which V. Orel explains as, borrowed from Late Latin (cucurum), or MGk.

Page 201 below:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/117854777/Vladimir-Orel-Albanian-Etymological-Dictionary

2) Detsikas (Decko) --> Deçka.

This surname can be found in Albania.

Two examples:
i) The mayor of Dropull is Ahilea Deçka.
ii) Genti Deçka is an Albanian actor, born in Tirana.

3) Pliatsikas - Πλιάτσικας.

This surname can be found among the Vlachs of Veria (i.e. Γιάννης Πλιάτσικας - Giannis Pliatsikas).

URL:
http://www.vlahoi.gr/index.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/ekdiloseis.htm

4) Petsias.

Similar surnames (such as Petsis, Petsios) can be found among the Vlachs of Iliochori (original name Добриново / Dobrinovo). This traditional Vlach village is located in Zagori Municipality, in Epirus Greece. (It's very likely, if not certain, that these Vlachs mixed with Slavs in the (distant) past.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliochori

URL:
https://iliochori.wordpress.com/2016/02/27/επίθετα-οικογενειών-που-ζούσαν-στο-ντ/

Here are some surnames from Iliochori:
Petsis
Petsios
Raikos
Belos
Betas
Balafas
Kukuravas or Kokoravas
Papandreu
Kostika
Milios
Danikos
Polizos
Tsetsias
Karatzias

 

[AELarisa]

The addition of "almost" was merely an an act of homage, on my part, to the essential role of doubt in science. A polite nod, no more.

In reality, there really is no doubt. We can justly claim that we know, with a high degree of scientific certainty, that the Slavs in question had nothing to do with Croats. Thus, any mention of Croats within this context is entirely out of place.

Furthermore, based on all available evidence, we can also say that these Slavs had more in common with Serbs than any other population of South Slavs. It stands to reason that they should be referred to as Serbs, and that any further mention of Croats ought to be avoided.

I guess we are mostly related to Serbs.
But in some maps Serbs and Croats are shown as one race or one nation, so that is why I said both.

"Some of the slavic surnames you may find there are Garavelis (Garavelj), Kravaritis (Kravaric), Zouzoulas (Zuzul), Krikelis (Krkelj), Koutinas (Kutina), Pliatsikas or Pliatskas or Pliaskas (Pljackas/Pljaskas), Bikas, Koukouras, Petsias (pec), Tsaras (Car), Detsikas (Decko) and so on."

FYI - It might be incorrect to consider some of these surnames as pure Slavic names.

1) Koukouras --> Kukur(+as).

Latin cucurum: quiver.
https://mymemory.translated.net/en/Latin/English/cucurum

The same word, kukur, is found in Albanian - which V. Orel explains as, borrowed from Late Latin (cucurum), or MGk.

Page 201 below:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/117854777/Vladimir-Orel-Albanian-Etymological-Dictionary

2) Detsikas (Decko) --> Deçka.

This surname can be found in Albania.

Two examples:
i) The mayor of Dropull is Ahilea Deçka.
ii) Genti Deçka is an Albanian actor, born in Tirana.

3) Pliatsikas - Πλιάτσικας.

This surname can be found among the Vlachs of Veria (i.e. Γιάννης Πλιάτσικας - Giannis Pliatsikas).

URL:
http://www.vlahoi.gr/index.asp?RFRM=http://www.vlahoi.gr/ekdiloseis.htm

4) Petsias.

Similar surnames (such as Petsis, Petsios) can be found among the Vlachs of Iliochori (original name Добриново / Dobrinovo). This traditional Vlach village is located in Zagori Municipality, in Epirus Greece. (It's very likely, if not certain, that these Vlachs mixed with Slavs in the (distant) past.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliochori

URL:
https://iliochori.wordpress.com/2016/02/27/επίθετα-οικογενειών-που-ζούσαν-στο-ντ/

Here are some surnames from Iliochori:
Petsis
Petsios
Raikos
Belos
Betas
Balafas
Kukuravas or Kokoravas
Papandreu
Kostika
Milios
Danikos
Polizos
Tsetsias
Karatzias

Well, the Albanians and the Vlachs also have some people of Slavic origin. Albania was full of slavic population about 1000 years ago (before the Dacian tribes that formed the Albanian nation came to the region).
The fact that they also use some slavic names is the evidence of the presence of Slavs among them.
The eastern part of Thessaly is full of serbian toponyms and surnames, I don't think that the Albanians or the Vlachs gave them. There were very few Albanians in Thessaly and the Vlachs lived in other parts of Thessaly.
My guess is that they probably came during the Stefan Dusan era, but I have no references.

 

[AELarisa]

In addition, from the above list, the following don't strike me as evidently Slavic: Garavelis, Zouzoulas, Krikelis, Tsaras.

Then let's see some people that share those surnames (almost all -if not all- from Thessaly).

Garavelis:

Zouzoulas:

Tsaras:

The famous journalist (and relative of mine), Athina Krikeli:

And now, let's take a look at the Vlachs from Greece:

Well, honestly, I do not think that they are even close.
Maybe some Vlachs of Slavic origin could look like them.

 

[AELarisa]

The surname Pliatsikas was also said above that could be Vlach.

Let's see some people that share this surname...and not to mention that the surname is present basically in Thessaly and Macedonia.

Do they look like Vlachs?

 

[AELarisa]

Thessaly was not an empty place when the Vlachs came. There were many Slavs already settled there for centuries.
So, the "Great Vlachia" was a state of all people living in Thessaly, not only Vlachs. They did not want to be under Byzantine rule and those people some centuries later accepted the rule of Stefan Dusan.

In the eastern part of Thessaly there was a boom of slavic toponyms a few centuries ago, that of course cannot be due to the romance language speakers of Thessaly.
The Vlachs of Thessaly do not speak any slavic. They maybe have borrowed a few words, just as the greek language has, but these words are not enough to explain the many and very detailed slavic toponyms of the territory.

As about the Arvanites, they moved to the south. Very few settled in Thessaly and of course they also cannot be the reason for the slavic toponyms.

Evrytania is well known for its Vlach population. Also Epirus and especially Pindos mountains. The part of Thessaly inhabited by Vlachs is shown in the maps I posted.

 

[Сребрена]

Thessaly was not an empty place when the Vlachs came. There were many Slavs already settled there for centuries.
So, the "Great Vlachia" was a state of all people living in Thessaly, not only Vlachs. They did not want to be under Byzantine rule and those people some centuries later accepted the rule of Stefan Dusan.

I spent once a lot of time in Volos (Βόλος) . Residents of Volos told me that the name comes from the slavic word for hair.
Even in a tourist brochure of the city the same meaning (hair) was written.

 

[AELarisa]

No, that's wrong. The term Vlach is an exonym and it corresponds to the endonym Român (or Rumân). This is exactly the way the exonym Greek corresponds to the endonym Hellene. Or the way the exonym German corresponds to the endonym Deutsche. In the present country of Romania there are three major regions: Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania. All three are inhabited by Vlachs, i.e., Romanians. The name Wallachia is derived from the exonym Vlach, while Moldavia and Transylvania (= Land beyond the Forest) are geographic, like Thessaly or Peloponnesse.

The Romanians are not the only Vlachs. There are also the Armâns and the Rămărs. The Armâns or Aromuns live in Greece, Albania, Macedonia. The Rămărs live in Istria. Their second exonym is Ćići.

These three endonyms of the Vlachs -- Român, Armân and Rămăr -- are all variants of Romanus, i.e., Roman. It's a name that goes back to the Roman empire.

Some centuries ago all the citizens of Eastern Roman Empire were called Romani. The term "Greek/Hellene" meant "pagan".
The Byzantines were Romani and Byzantium was officially Romania (the name Byzantium was given by German historians 100 years after its fall).
The Turks called the Byzantines "Rum".
This is why they called the romance speakers Vlachs, because the greek speakers of the Roman Empire were Romans (Romani). Not to mention that all the noble families of Byzantium fled to Moldovlachia (as Romania of today was called by that time). And the term Vlach is slavic as far as I know.
So, the Byzantines were all Vlachs / Romanians according to you?

I spent once a lot of time in Volos (Βόλος) . Residents of Volos told me that the name comes from the slavic word for hair.
Even in a tourist brochure of the city the same meaning (hair) was written.

Really?
My dad grew up in Volos and I have relatives there.
As far as I know there are 3 possible explanations on the name of Volos.
1. Vol = Bullock.
2. God Veles / Volos.
3. Gol = naked.
Did they mean "without hair"?
That is number 3 I guess. I think they have found some text where it was written as Golos.
But I believe it's number 1. They had many cows in the valley of Volos and surnames related to it (Kravaritis, Bikas).
BTW, the mayor of Volos has the surname Beos. I think it must be from beo = white?

Many Vlacho-Romanian rulers from the middle age had Slavic names such as:

- Vlad the Impaler (Vlad is a short form of Slavic names Vladimir and Vladislav) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad

- Bogdan III the One-Eyed (Bogdan is name orf Slavic origin, it's very popular among Serbs, Ukrainians and Russians) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdan_III_the_One-Eyed

- Radu I of Wallachia (Rad means work on many Slavic languages, name Rade is very popular among Serbs and name Radek is very popular among Czechs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radu_I_of_Wallachia

- Mircea I of Wallachia (name Mircea derivated from Slavic word Mir which means peace, Slavic names Miroslav and Mirko also derivated from Mir) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_I_of_Wallachia

DEAL WITH IT!!!

In Greece you find them as surnames. Vladis, Bogdanos, Rados, Mirisklavos. All of them found in northern parts of Greece and Thessaly. Also Zlatanos, Dusas, Stogianis.

 

[haeul]

Rūmī was also used by the urban Turkish-speaking population of the Ottoman Empire. Until the mid-to-late 19th century, the term 'Turk' was only used in reference to Anatolian peasants. Using it to describe a city-dweller or, God-forbid, a member of the elite, would have been considered a grave insult.

In Greece you find them as surnames. Vladis, Bogdanos, Rados, Mirisklavos. All of them found in northern parts of Greece and Thessaly. Also Zlatanos, Dusas, Stogianis.

All these Greek names have Serbian cognates that are still in common use. Владо/a, Богдан, Радош/Раде, Мирослав, Златана, Душан, Стојан. It's quite remarkable.

 

[AELarisa]

All these Greek names have Serbian cognates that are still in common use. Владо/a, Богдан, Радош/Раде, Мирослав, Златана, Душан, Стојан. It's quite remarkable.

Actress Panagiota Vladi :

Actress Eleni Rados :

Journalist Konstantinos Bogdanos :

 

[AELarisa]

Two actors that are couple and both have slavic surnames...

Vana Rabota and Vasilis Koukouras:

 

[Mrkalj]

The Vlachs in greek texts are mentioned as invaders from the North, along with the Bulgarians.
So, I don't think their first homeland can be Albania. They later inhabited Albania, just as they did in some parts of Greece.
Albania by that time was inhabited by Slavs and descendants of Illyrians.

The Romans had moved large numbers of population from Dacia (Roman Dacia was almost completely evacuated), because there were almost always under attack and it was not easy to defend it.
So, the Vlachs are probably scuh tribes, mixed up with Thracians and others that lived in the Balkans.
And the Albanians are probably Dacians that were not completely romanized and kept their dacian language.
There are many common words (non latin and non greek) among the language of Albanians and Vlachs.

My perspective is completely different.

Dacia is part of Slavic Homeland. Romanians in Balkans are refugees from Italian peninsula as of 4th century (give or take). Scipetars (so called Albanians) came from Africa to Southern Italy, Sicily, Greece and Balkans during 11th century. According to toponyms, central Albania is Roman, and all other parts are Slavic.

Slovenski toponimi čine većinu toponima Albanije - ko bi se tome nadao? (Google maps)

- - - - - - - - - -

Da "malo" uveličamo:

- - - - - - - - - -

Velika slika slovenskih toponima prema Seliščevu (velike slike bolje je gledati izvan brauzera):

 

[AELarisa]

I'm no M. Vasmer but these names strike me as Latin / Romance terms - here are some relevant examples:

1. Verbania - Verbania is the most populous comune (municipality) and the capital city of the province of Verbano-Cusio-Ossola in the Piedmont region of northwest Italy.

2. Vervins - Vervins (French pronunciation: ​[vɛʁvɛ̃]) is a commune in the Aisne department in Hauts-de-France in northern France. Vervins was mentioned in the ancient times as Verbinum in the Antonine Itinerary.

3.
a) VERVINA - among the Romans, a long javelin, also a spit or broach.
b) VERVENA, an herb that was reckoned sacred among the Romans.

Above is from An Universal Military Dictionary, in English and French: In which are ..., By Charles James:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ir...4Q6AEIQTAF#v=onepage&q=vervena romans&f=false



I suspect that both Vérvena (Arkadia) and Kryovrysi (Verveni) have something to do with Arvanites and/or Arvanitovlachs (Vlachs) too.

LOL

Vervena, Vervitsa and similar names come from slavic word vrba. It is a tree that you find there and it is 1000% slavic . They are both (Vervena and Vervitsa) found in Arcadia, Peloponnese.
The ending is similar to Krestena (krst) in the Peloponnese.

AND
Close to Vervitsa, in Arcadia, there is a village that was called SERVIA (also mentioned as Servou, the name it has today).
Typical Vlach or Albanian name is my guess.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Σέρβου_Αρκαδίας

https://www.servou.gr/

 

[AELarisa]

River Voidomatis (vode mati), close to Konitsa (Konjica), in Epirus.

 

[haeul]

'Коњица' (Konjica) is Serbian for 'cavelry', but this town's name is probably a cognate of the toponym 'Коњиц(е)' (Konjic(e)), which can be found in a number of Slavic countries.

I'm not sure about 'Voidomatis'. The obvious etymology would be 'mother of water', but that's quite strange. I'm not aware of any such Slavic toponyms. Perhaps someone else can shed more light on it.

 

[Mstislav]

Two actors that are couple and both have slavic surnames...

Vana Rabota and Vasilis Koukouras:

Indeed, the guy is especially slavic looking. Similar features like this actor from Bosnia.

 

[Сребрена]

LOL

Vervena, Vervitsa and similar names come from slavic word vrba. It is a tree that you find there and it is 1000% slavic . They are both (Vervena and Vervitsa) found in Arcadia, Peloponnese.
The ending is similar to Krestena (krst) in the Peloponnese.

Except vrba- tree, we have similar name for plant :vrbena https://sr.wiktionary.org/sr/verbena

Stari narodi su verbenu smatrali čarobnom i svetom biljkom. Verbena, ili sporiš kako je još zovu, danas je jedna od najlepših cvetnica.
Verbena je bila sveta biljka kod Kelta, Rimljana i Egipćana, i pripisivana su joj i magična i lekovita svojstva. Rimljani su nazivali verbenom venčić od biljaka koji je korišćen u ritualne svrhe. Mešavinom vode i verbene prskalo se mesto na kome će se obavljati obred.

..today famouse as magic- antidot- plant against vampires, like in serial The Vampire Diaries

Third possible source I see, about toponims Vervena/Vervitza, could be one almost forgotenn serbian verb: "Vreviti", present today only in some dialects. It means "talking", "make conversation", so Vervena can be, in this sense, the place where conversation is going on.
Today, we use in serbian noun "vreva" as " noise, clamor " https://sr.wiktionary.org/sr/vreva

Fourth, we have very old traditional "Verbitza" day, The feast of Vrbica (Врбица), day before "Cveti" (Lazarus Saturday before Palm Sunday). On "Verbitza day" start Lazarice ritual, a procession of six or more maids, singing "lazarice song" with willow branches and small bells in hands .

The girls decorate in a colorful and rich way their hairs (usually with flower and ribbon wreaths) and go around the village singing songs and dancing,.. As they stop from house to house, the hosts would give them small presents and food for gratitude. They meet by a river and let in their wreths. It is believed that first one to take the lead belongs to the first girl to be married.Once a girl become Lazarka, she can be engaged and married.

'

I'm not sure about 'Voidomatis'. The obvious etymology would be 'mother of water', but that's quite strange. I'm not aware of any such Slavic toponyms. Perhaps someone else can shed more light on it.

Vodomatica je vodena matica, glavni tok vode=matica, rečna matica.

Rečna matica je linija koja pokazuje mesta prolaska najvećeg proticaja. To su mesta sa najvećom brzinom rečnog toka i uglavnom mesta sa najvećim dubinama. U matici reka ima najveću energiju, tako da potkopava rečno dno i obalu, odnoseći nanos, koji taloži na mestima gde energija toka postaje mala.

Molim te, Haeule, ako imaš vremena, da lepo objasniš našem sagovorniku..ja ne znam tu reč na engleskom (stream nije isto), kao što ne znam ni englesku reč za "vlas", povodom naziva Volosa.


P.S. Deo diskusije koja se odnosi striktno na Vlahe prebačen je na temu o Vlasima (Vlasi, balkanski fenomen), deo je kopiran pa postoji i tamo i ovde.