Evolucija ili kreacija?

[LazaB]

Могао би неко мало више да поведе рачуна о већем броју тролова на теми, ово почиње да личи на курсаџије. Ја разумем да ово није потфорум наука и да може ко год хоће да лупета о чему год хоће без икаквог смисла, али неки ниво озбиљности би било пожељно одржавати, не? Важе ли општа правила форума и овде или могу и ја да тролујем вернике из чисте досаде по осталим темама и износим тврдње, рецимо о Библији, које са Библијом немају никакве везе? Питам да бих био сигуран, пошто су ми неке поруке већ брисане због истих разлога.

Izuzetno dobro pitanje , nepostojanje NAJosnovnijeg znanja o biologiji i evoluciji i cak svesno trolovanje se vidi na svakoj stranici.

 

[bmaxa]

Mozes li da mi objasnis zasto delimo fosile virusa koje su nasi preci prelezali na identicnim mestima u genomu kao i simpanze kada znamo da ta vrsta virusa moze da ostavi te fosile na oko 10 miliona mesta u genomu

ovo je neistina, tako nesto se ne moze utvrditi.

 

[LazaB]

ovo je neistina, tako nesto se ne moze utvrditi.

Apsolutno dokazano i provereno vise puta u vise razlicitih laboratorija , cak su i oziveli te viruse koje su bukvalno izvukli iz genoma ljudi i simpanzi , e to je nauka.

 

[bmaxa]

Apsolutno dokazano i provereno vise puta u vise razlicitih laboratorija , cak su i oziveli te viruse koje su bukvalno izvukli iz genoma ljudi i simpanzi , e to je nauka.

Znas kako kad mi neko kaze da je zemlja ravna ploca, ja mu ne verujem pa tako ni u ovu tvoju tvrdnju. BTW, link ti ne radi...

 

[gost 422686]

Ти ладно мислиш да је "пећински човек" таксономски ранг?



Није се испоставило да је "исти као данашњи човек". Ја се стварно надам да тролујеш, јер у супротном је ово заиста тужно.

Ne trolujem već zaista tako mislim. A tužno bi bilo da mislim kao i vi.

 

[LazaB]

Znas kako kad mi neko kaze da je zemlja ravna ploca, ja mu ne verujem pa tako ni u ovu tvoju tvrdnju. BTW, link ti ne radi...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZWCMW7ZWhdlLPVJU4nDWkmyQbUqZG3wsS0FD2sKmn0/edit

Ne znam zasto nece da pusti klip , ali eto linka sa masovnim naucnim referencama , uzivaj dok citas apsolutno nepobitan dokaz da delis zajednickog pretka sa majmunima.

 

[Ateista1]

Nema sada pusti pitdaunskog čoveka. Pravi i pošteni naulnici su trebali da se pobune protiv te prevare, a ne da je masovno prihvate i da istražuju dalje. Imaš doste čkanaka i videa o tome.

A šta su uradili care?

 

[gost 422686]

Apsolutno dokazano i provereno vise puta u vise razlicitih laboratorija , cak su i oziveli te viruse koje su bukvalno izvukli iz genoma ljudi i simpanzi , e to je nauka.

Prvo nema videa, a drugo samo mantraš.

A šta su uradili care?

Prihvatili su prevaru.

 

[Ateista1]

Prvo nema videa, a drugo samo mantraš.


Prihvatili su prevaru.

Jesi ti realan?

 

[gost 422686]

Jesi ti realan?

Da i to savršeno.

 

[Ateista1]

Da i to savršeno.

Ne mogu da poverujem.

 

[bmaxa]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZWCMW7ZWhdlLPVJU4nDWkmyQbUqZG3wsS0FD2sKmn0/edit

Ne znam zasto nece da pusti klip , ali eto linka sa masovnim naucnim referencama , uzivaj dok citas apsolutno nepobitan dokaz da delis zajednickog pretka sa majmunima.

Nema teorije da su izolovali virus iz fosila, drugo to što gene imamo slične ne povlači uopšte da imamo bilo kakve veze sa njima.. ovo je još jedna podmetačina i zaključak donesen bez ikakvih dokaza... voleo bih da vidim papir i gde je objavljeno..

 

[gost 422686]

Ne mogu da poverujem.

A šta to?

 

[Kažu "strani plaćenik"]

Nema teorije da su izolovali virus iz fosila, drugo to što gene imamo slične ne povlači uopšte da imamo bilo kakve veze sa njima.. ovo je još jedna podmetačina i zaključak donesen bez ikakvih dokaza... voleo bih da vidim papir i gde je objavljeno..

И ми бисмо овде сви волели да видимо једну пишљиву референцу за макар једну глупост од гомиле које си овде испрдео на теми, па ништа, само забијеш главу у песак као по обичају и правиш се блесав.
,,А чуј, а види, а пази, а гледај..."

 

[Ateista1]

A šta to?

Ne mogu da poverujem kakvi danas imaju pravo glasa

 

[gost 422686]

Ne mogu da poverujem kakvi danas imaju pravo glasa

Isto kao i vi. To je demokratija.

 

[Ateista1]

И ми бисмо овде сви волели да видимо једну пишљиву референцу за макар једну глупост од гомиле које си овде испрдео на теми, па ништа, само забијеш главу у песак као по обичају и правиш се блесав.
,,А чуј, а види, а пази, а гледај..."

Jel ovi likovi nas zajebavavaju ili su mentalno obogaljeni?

Isto kao i vi. To je demokratija.

Jebemm ti demokratiju

 

[LazaB]

Nema teorije da su izolovali virus iz fosila, drugo to što gene imamo slične ne povlači uopšte da imamo bilo kakve veze sa njima.. ovo je još jedna podmetačina i zaključak donesen bez ikakvih dokaza... voleo bih da vidim papir i gde je objavljeno..

Nikakav virus nisu izolovali iz fosila , nego iz zivih simpanzi i zivih ljudi , i nasli su da delimo preko 90% fosila virusa koji su nasi preci prelezali na identicnim mestima u genomu , iako postoji oko 10 miliona mesta gde ti virusi mogu da ostave svoje " fosile " , cak su naucnici u laboratorijama oziveli te praistorijske viruse koje su izvukli iz naseg i simpanzinog genoma i uspeli da zaraze zive ljudske celije u laboratoriji.
Jedino objasnjenje za deljenje fosila u genomu na identicnim mestima sa simpanzama je da je nas zajednicki predak prelezao te viruse i mi smo ga nasledili , mi i simpanze , ne postoji drugo objasnjenje , cak na kraju su matematicki izracunali mogucnost slucajnosti i sve je u dokumentima.

 

[bmaxa]

И ми бисмо овде сви волели да видимо једну пишљиву референцу за макар једну глупост од гомиле које си овде испрдео на теми, па ништа, само забијеш главу у песак као по обичају и правиш се блесав.
,,А чуј, а види, а пази, а гледај..."

The theory that identical ERVs or HERVs (human endogenous retroviruses) found at a similar location in the genome of both humans and chimps, thus proving a common ancestor, has been found to be completely contrary to recent studies. Newer studies now show numerous cases of multiple identical ERV sites found in COMPLETELY UNRELATED SPECIES: sheep/fox, cat/baboon, possum/chimp, bird/cat, etc. and the list keeps growing... Statistically, we can no longer conclude these are unique situations pointing to any proof whatsoever of common descent. It is most likely that initial studies were done primarily on humans and chimps rather than other mammals and this skewed the data.
Recent discoveries show genetic sequences labeled as ERVs are MANDATORY FOR BASIC BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS WITHOUT WHICH SURVIVAL IS IMPOSSIBLE:

A partial list of mandatory functions recently discovered to be directly attributed to ERVs:
a) Large-scale regulation of our genome as a whole.
b) Direct support and regulation of our immune system.
c) Aid in the production of countless proteins mandatory for life.
d) Prevention of miscarriages.
e) Mutations within retrovirus-like sequences actually cause disease, thus proving their mandatory nature.
f) Etc., etc., etc..
The most parsimonious explanation for this is that retroviral-like elements are not ERVs but INTRINSIC genetic material that have always existed in our genome as a necessity for life, rather then leftover foreign pathological viruses.
1) How could humans and other animals survive at all without the genetic materials essential for life BEFORE they became infected by ERVs?
2) Why don't we see ERV insertions into germ cells today?
3) Why would such infections be preserved, even through apoptosis and unfavorable selection of infected organisms?
4) What made ERVs change from viral activities and acquire transcriptional abilities to create essential genes?
5) What made ERVs immediately turn into essential gene regulators upon insertion?
6) Why have ERVs - initially pathological - NEVER been proven to cause disease but have been proven to be favorable for life instead?
7) What made the identical ERV transcribe differently in humans and chimps?
Way too many hard questions for which the answers make no sense - without genetic fantasy scenarios - and more importantly, remain unproven. Ad hoc (makeshift or improvised) arguments WITHOUT POSITIVE EVIDENCE are often used in an attempt to explain away these inconsistencies and maintain an evolutionary bias.
"A clear PROOF for the existence of a HERV capable of productive replication REMAINS ELUSIVE..."
(Ref: PNAS October 5, 2004 vol. 101 no. Suppl 2 14572-14579)
“Our data reveal that the activity of endogenous retroviruses is regulated differentially and is cell type specific, SIMILAR TO NORMAL GENE REGULATION … our findings suggest that HERVs BEHAVE LIKE NORMAL CELLULAR GENES and are a permanent component of the transcriptome of a cell.” (Ref: Journal Of Virology, 1/2005)
“In short, the notion that molecules of germ cells … are in states of perpetual change is not, in our present understanding of cell biology, tenable. This doesn’t mean that “molecular change” does not occur; only that mechanisms provoking such change in germ cells are likely instantaneous and stochastic and probably OFTEN LETHAL – which WILL PRECLUDE their persistence into future generations.”
(Ref: MIT Press Journals, Fall 2006, Vol.1)
"Several ERVs appear to PROVIDE PROTECTION FROM INFECTION and are INVOLVED IN REPRODUCTION...Studies in cultured cells have shown that a protein of a HERV might have a ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN PLACENTA...Miscarriage is a serious medical problem for all mammals, including humans." (Ref: "ERVs are Required for pregnancy in Sheep", Science Daily)
"Within this locus we find two incidents of independent, multiple SINE insertion events at identical sites. These results have major repercussions for phylogenetic analyses based on SINE insertions, indicating the need for caution before interpreting shared SINE insertions as incontrovertible evidence of common ancestry..." (Ref: Genetics: An Ancient Retrovirus-like Element Contains Hot Spots for SINE Insertion)

 

[gost 422686]

Nikakav virus nisu izolovali iz fosila , nego iz zivih simpanzi i zivih ljudi , i nasli su da delimo preko 90% fosila virusa koji su nasi preci prelezali na identicnim mestima u genomu , iako postoji oko 10 miliona mesta gde ti virusi mogu da ostave svoje " fosile " , cak su naucnici u laboratorijama oziveli te praistorijske viruse koje su izvukli iz naseg i simpanzinog genoma i uspeli da zaraze zive ljudske celije u laboratoriji.
Jedino objasnjenje za deljenje fosila u genomu na identicnim mestima sa simpanzama je da je nas zajednicki predak prelezao te viruse i mi smo ga nasledili , mi i simpanze , ne postoji drugo objasnjenje , cak na kraju su matematicki izracunali mogucnost slucajnosti i sve je u dokumentima.

To i dalje nije nikakav dokaz o evoluciji.

Jel ovi likovi nas zajebavavaju ili su mentalno obogaljeni?


Jebemm ti demokratiju

A šta bi ti? Jednoumlje? Ti nisi ništa bolji od pojedinih verskih fanatika na ovom forumu.

 

[Ateista1]

Jako zanimljivo što nijednog časa nije bilo više za kreacionizam. Evolucija trijumfuje čak i na antievolucionističkom pdf-u!

 

[LazaB]

To i dalje nije nikakav dokaz o evoluciji.

Naravno , mora da smo slucajno prelezali iste viruse kao i simpanze i ti virusi ostavili oziljke na istim mestima u genomu iako imaju 10 miliona ralzicitih mesta gde mogu da ostave , da kopiram samo matemnaticke sanse za ono sto ti tvrdis
1 in

58,800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

In short, it’s impossible that this happened by chance.

Ali naravno nastavi da zabijas glavu u pesak

 

[Ateista1]

A šta bi ti? Jednoumlje?

Jedina normalna stvar. Demokratija je najveće zlo koje smeta poretku i državi.

Naravno , mora da smo slucajno prelezali iste viruse kao i simpanze i ti virusi ostavili oziljke na istim mestima u genomu iako imaju 10 miliona ralzicitih mesta gde mogu da ostave , da kopiram samo matemnaticke sanse za ono sto ti tvrdis
1 in
58,800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

In short, it’s impossible that this happened by chance.

Ali naravno nastavi da zabijas glavu u pesak

Koji je ovo broj ?

 

[Kažu "strani plaćenik"]

The theory that identical ERVs or HERVs (human endogenous retroviruses) found at a similar location in the genome of both humans and chimps, thus proving a common ancestor, has been found to be completely contrary to recent studies. Newer studies now show numerous cases of multiple identical ERV sites found in COMPLETELY UNRELATED SPECIES: sheep/fox, cat/baboon, possum/chimp, bird/cat, etc. and the list keeps growing... Statistically, we can no longer conclude these are unique situations pointing to any proof whatsoever of common descent. It is most likely that initial studies were done primarily on humans and chimps rather than other mammals and this skewed the data.
Recent discoveries show genetic sequences labeled as ERVs are MANDATORY FOR BASIC BIOLOGICAL FUNCTIONS WITHOUT WHICH SURVIVAL IS IMPOSSIBLE:

A partial list of mandatory functions recently discovered to be directly attributed to ERVs:
a) Large-scale regulation of our genome as a whole.
b) Direct support and regulation of our immune system.
c) Aid in the production of countless proteins mandatory for life.
d) Prevention of miscarriages.
e) Mutations within retrovirus-like sequences actually cause disease, thus proving their mandatory nature.
f) Etc., etc., etc..
The most parsimonious explanation for this is that retroviral-like elements are not ERVs but INTRINSIC genetic material that have always existed in our genome as a necessity for life, rather then leftover foreign pathological viruses.
1) How could humans and other animals survive at all without the genetic materials essential for life BEFORE they became infected by ERVs?
2) Why don't we see ERV insertions into germ cells today?
3) Why would such infections be preserved, even through apoptosis and unfavorable selection of infected organisms?
4) What made ERVs change from viral activities and acquire transcriptional abilities to create essential genes?
5) What made ERVs immediately turn into essential gene regulators upon insertion?
6) Why have ERVs - initially pathological - NEVER been proven to cause disease but have been proven to be favorable for life instead?
7) What made the identical ERV transcribe differently in humans and chimps?
Way too many hard questions for which the answers make no sense - without genetic fantasy scenarios - and more importantly, remain unproven. Ad hoc (makeshift or improvised) arguments WITHOUT POSITIVE EVIDENCE are often used in an attempt to explain away these inconsistencies and maintain an evolutionary bias.
"A clear PROOF for the existence of a HERV capable of productive replication REMAINS ELUSIVE..."
(Ref: PNAS October 5, 2004 vol. 101 no. Suppl 2 14572-14579)
“Our data reveal that the activity of endogenous retroviruses is regulated differentially and is cell type specific, SIMILAR TO NORMAL GENE REGULATION … our findings suggest that HERVs BEHAVE LIKE NORMAL CELLULAR GENES and are a permanent component of the transcriptome of a cell.” (Ref: Journal Of Virology, 1/2005)
“In short, the notion that molecules of germ cells … are in states of perpetual change is not, in our present understanding of cell biology, tenable. This doesn’t mean that “molecular change” does not occur; only that mechanisms provoking such change in germ cells are likely instantaneous and stochastic and probably OFTEN LETHAL – which WILL PRECLUDE their persistence into future generations.”
(Ref: MIT Press Journals, Fall 2006, Vol.1)
"Several ERVs appear to PROVIDE PROTECTION FROM INFECTION and are INVOLVED IN REPRODUCTION...Studies in cultured cells have shown that a protein of a HERV might have a ROLE IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE HUMAN PLACENTA...Miscarriage is a serious medical problem for all mammals, including humans." (Ref: "ERVs are Required for pregnancy in Sheep", Science Daily)
"Within this locus we find two incidents of independent, multiple SINE insertion events at identical sites. These results have major repercussions for phylogenetic analyses based on SINE insertions, indicating the need for caution before interpreting shared SINE insertions as incontrovertible evidence of common ancestry..." (Ref: Genetics: An Ancient Retrovirus-like Element Contains Hot Spots for SINE Insertion)

Преносиш поново текст са религијских сајтова и тиме само, изнова и изнова, доказујеш да си тотални игнорант и да појма немаш ни о чему. Јуче сам ти дао назнаку о томе шта значи навести референцу, али не вреди.

 

[bmaxa]

Naravno , mora da smo slucajno prelezali iste viruse kao i simpanze i ti virusi ostavili oziljke na istim mestima u genomu iako imaju 10 miliona ralzicitih mesta gde mogu da ostave , da kopiram samo matemnaticke sanse za ono sto ti tvrdis
1 in
58,800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

In short, it’s impossible that this happened by chance.

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