Srpsko ime u Dubrovniku

Taj Melko je možda najbolji primjer koliko smo skloni anakronizmima. Prvu polovinu je bio Hrvat, pratio ćaću, drugu polovinu je bio Srbin. Mislim da se ne može za njegovo Srbovanje govoriti baš u kontekstu Srba-katolika u Dubrovniku nego više nekakva paralela s Andrićem ili još nekim ljudima na funkcijama, npr glasoviti deda od Vesne Pusić, jer njegovo(Melkovo) srpstvo dolazi poslije te eohe, ili na samom kraju. Kasnije je tužno završio ako se ne varam, u rukama ozne.

Ono što je ovde pitanje jeste pri kakvom je stavu Čingrija bio javno u vreme izbora, 1920. godine. Nesumnjivo je on uzeo gro glasova nestranačke liste; čim napuštamo srce Dubrovnika (čak i u Gružu se to takođe primećuje) drastično padaju njeni glasovi, a u Dubrovniku je bila drugoplasirana odmah iza komunista.

Jel Vojnovići beše jedan Srbin drugi pravaš Kosta/Ivo?

Ćaća veliki Hrvat (mada mislim da nije uvek bio), jedan sin ovejani Srbenda, drugi prosrpski orijentisani Jugosloven.

Ček KPJ uzela čak 21,5%?
Narodna radikalna stranka 17,5? Ok, puno.

To je samo za sam grad, dakle gradsku srž; dubrovački centar. Bez Gruža. Ovo su podaci za Gruž:

* KPJ: 129 (38,05%)
* HZ: 54 (15,93%)
* NRS: 47 (13,86%)
* HPS: 39 (11,5%)
* JDS: 33 (9,73%)
* nestranački: 31 (9,14%)
* TS: 6 (1,77%)
UKUPNO: 339 (65,32% izašlo)

Zbrojeno, zajedno sa Gružem, to daje sledeće rezultate:
* KPJ: 357 (25,55%)
* nestranačka: 245 (17,54%)
* NRS: 232 (16,61%)
* HZ: 218 (15,6%)
* HPS: 190 (13,6%)
* JDS: 132 (9,45%)
* TS: 23 (1,65%)
UKUPNO: 1.397 (69,09%)
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ono što je ovde pitanje jeste pri kakvom je stavu Čingrija bio javno u vreme izbora, 1920. godine. Nesumnjivo je on uzeo gro glasova nestranačke liste; čim napuštamo srce Dubrovnika (čak i u Gružu se to takođe primećuje) drastično padaju njeni glasovi, a u Dubrovniku je bila drugoplasirana odmah iza komunista.



Ćaća veliki Hrvat (mada mislim da nije uvek bio), jedan sin ovejani Srbenda, drugi prosrpski orijentisani Jugosloven.



To je samo za sam grad, dakle gradsku srž; dubrovački centar. Bez Gruža. Ovo su podaci za Gruž:

* KPJ: 129 (38,05%)
* HZ: 54 (15,93%)
* NRS: 47 (13,86%)
* HPS: 39 (11,5%)
* JDS: 33 (9,73%)
* nestranački: 31 (9,14%)
* TS: 6 (1,77%)
UKUPNO: 339 (65,32% izašlo)

Zbrojeno, zajedno sa Gružem, to daje sledeće rezultate:
* KPJ: 357 (25,55%)
* nestranačka: 245 (17,54%)
* NRS: 232 (16,61%)
* HZ: 218 (15,6%)
* HPS: 190 (13,6%)
* JDS: 132 (9,45%)
* TS: 23 (1,65%)
UKUPNO: 1.397 (69,09%)

Broj glasova za NRS je velik(mada ne znam detalje njihove politike u to vrijeme, tj je li njihov birač bio unitarni Jugoslaven ili Srbin ili oboje), kao i za JDS, ali zaista frapira koliko je uzela KPJ. U ono vrijeme, na samom početku. Sada bi bilo zapravo zanimljivo vidjeti kolika je ta razlika NRS-a u odnosu na druge gradove u Dalmaciji. Preko moba mi se ne da.
 
Ono što je ovde pitanje jeste pri kakvom je stavu Čingrija bio javno u vreme izbora, 1920. godine. Nesumnjivo je on uzeo gro glasova nestranačke liste; čim napuštamo srce Dubrovnika (čak i u Gružu se to takođe primećuje) drastično padaju njeni glasovi, a u Dubrovniku je bila drugoplasirana odmah iza komunista.



Ćaća veliki Hrvat (mada mislim da nije uvek bio), jedan sin ovejani Srbenda, drugi prosrpski orijentisani Jugosloven.



To je samo za sam grad, dakle gradsku srž; dubrovački centar. Bez Gruža. Ovo su podaci za Gruž:

* KPJ: 129 (38,05%)
* HZ: 54 (15,93%)
* NRS: 47 (13,86%)
* HPS: 39 (11,5%)
* JDS: 33 (9,73%)
* nestranački: 31 (9,14%)
* TS: 6 (1,77%)
UKUPNO: 339 (65,32% izašlo)

Zbrojeno, zajedno sa Gružem, to daje sledeće rezultate:
* KPJ: 357 (25,55%)
* nestranačka: 245 (17,54%)
* NRS: 232 (16,61%)
* HZ: 218 (15,6%)
* HPS: 190 (13,6%)
* JDS: 132 (9,45%)
* TS: 23 (1,65%)
UKUPNO: 1.397 (69,09%)

Je l` si siguran da mu je caca bas toliki Hrvat?

"Кад је марта 1897 постављено у Земаљском сабору у Задру питање сједињења Далмације са Хрватском (моција дон Јурја Бианкинија), опозицију су сачињавали Срби преко вит. Кулишића, Италијани преко посланика д-ра Славија, и Дубровчани преко свога градоначелника Хрвата д-ра Пера Чингрије. Чак се др. Чингрија први дигао против тог предлога. О томе саопштавају потанко аустријски професори Хугелман и другови у доле означеној књизи. (Karl Gottlieb Hugelmann (et consortes), Das Nationalitaetenrecht des alten Oesterreichs. 1934.)

PS mozda sam se zeznuo, nisam siguran o kome se ovde radi, ocu ili sinu, mada je opet zanimljiv podatak.
 
IVAN GUNDULICH (1588-1638), known also as Giovanni Gondola, Servian poet, was born at Ragusa on the 8th of January 1588. His father, Franco Gundulich, once the Ragusan envoy to Constantinople and councillor of’ the republic, gave him an excellent education. He studied the “ humanities “ with the Jesuit, Father Muzzi, and philosophy with Father Ricasoli. After that he studied Roman law and jurisprudence in general. He was member of the Lower Council and once served as the 1 Air-dried guncotton will contain 2 % , or less of moisture.chief magistrate of the republic. He died on the 8th of December 1638. A born poet, he admired much the Italian poets of his time, from whom he made many translations into Servian. It is believed that he so translated Tasso’s Gerusalemme liberata. He is known to have written eighteen works, of which eleven were dramas, but of these only three have been fully preserved. others having perished during the great earthquake and fire in 1667. Most of those dramas were translations from the Italian, and were played, seemingly with great success, by the amateurs furnished by the noble families of Ragusa. But his greatest and justly celebrated work is an epic, entitled Osman, in twenty cantos. It is the first political epic on the Eastern Question, glorifying the victory of the Poles over Turks and Tatars in the campaign of 1621, and encouraging a league of the Christian nations, under the guidance of Vladislaus, the king of Poland, for the purpqse of driving away the Turks from Europe. The fourteenth and fifteenth cantos are lost. It is generally believed that the Ragusan government suppressed them from consideration for the Sultan, the protector of the republic, those two cantos having been violently anti-Turkish. Osman was printed for the first time in Ragusa in 1826, the two missing cantos being replaced by songs written by Pietro Sorgo (or Sorkochevich). From this edition the learned Italian, Francesco Appendini, made an Italian translation published in 1827. Since that time several other editions have been made. The best are considered to be the edition of the South Slavonic Academy in Agram (1877) and the edition published in Semlin (1889) by Professor Yovan Boshkovich. In the edition of 1844 (Agram) the last cantos, fourteen and fifteen, were replaced by very fine compositions of the Serbo-Croatian poet, Mazhuranich (Mazuranic). The complete works of Gundulich have been published in Agram, 1847, by V. Babukich and by the South Slavonic Academy of Agram in 1889. (C. M1.) GUNG’L, JOSEF (1810-1889), Hungarian composer and conductor, was born on the 1st of December 181o, at Zsambek, in Hungary. After starting life as a school-teacher, and learning the elements of music from Ofen, the school-choirmaster, he became first oboist at Graz, and, at twenty-five, bandmaster of the 4th regiment of Austrian artillery. His first composition, a Hungarian march, written in 1836, attracted some notice, and in 1843 he was able to establish an orchestra in Berlin. With this band he travelled far, even (in 1849) to America. It is worth recording that Mendelssohn’s complete Midsummer Night’s Dream music is said to have been first played by Gung’l’s band. In 1853 he became bandmaster to the 23rd Infantry Regiment at Briinn, but in 1864 he lived at Munich, and in 1876 at Frankfort, after (in 1873) having conducted with great success a series of promenade concerts at Covent Garden, London. From Frankfort Gung’l went to Weimar to live with his daughter, a well-known German opera singer and local prima donna. There he died, on the 31st of January 1889. Gung’l’s dances number over 300, perhaps the most popular being the “ Amoretten,“ „Hydropaten,“ „Casino,“ „Dreams on the Ocean“ waltzes; “ In Stiller Mitternacht “ polka, and “ Blue Violets “ mazurka. His Hungarian march was transcribed by Liszt. His music is characterized by the same.easy flowing melodies and well-marked rhythm that distinguish the dances of Strauss, to whom alone he can be ranked second in this kind of composition.

Podaci o Ivanu Gunduliću iz čuvene Enciklopedije Britanike iz 1911. Danas su neke stvari kao što ćete moći primijetiti promijenjene. (boldovano gore)
Capture.PNG
Istorija je kao i sve druge nauke podložna promjenama naravno ako dođe do novih faktografskih saznanja itd. no šta mislite, radi li se o zaista dobroj ispravci ili je politika tu imala ulogu?
 
Podaci o Ivanu Gunduliću iz čuvene Enciklopedije Britanike iz 1911. Danas su neke stvari kao što ćete moći primijetiti promijenjene. (boldovano gore)
Pogledajte prilog 750618
Istorija je kao i sve druge nauke podložna promjenama naravno ako dođe do novih faktografskih saznanja itd. no šta mislite, radi li se o zaista dobroj ispravci ili je politika tu imala ulogu?

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/00001a.htm

Kako je i kada nastala Katolička enciklopedija

Encyclopedia was begun in January, 1905. It was completed in April, 1914. For two years before the formation of a Board of Editors those who were to be its editors and publishers met together occasionally to confer about its publication. These meetings resulted in an agreement among the editors on December 8, 1904, to begin the work early the next year and in the choice of those who were to be its publishers.

The Board of Editors, five in number, was organized in January, 1905, and its membership remained the same throughout the production of the work. All the members had been engaged in editorial work before the Encyclopedia was thought of. As teachers and lecturers they had become familiar with the field of education and with the needs of Catholic literature. Through experience gained in different spheres of activity they had reached the same conclusions regarding the necessity of a Catholic Encyclopedia and the advisability of proceeding at once with its publication.

The editors were elected also as members of the Board of Directors of the publishing company which was incorporated in February, 1905, and they were given full authority in all matters affecting the nature, contents and policy of the Encyclopedia. On February 25 they signed a contract to produce The Catholic Encyclopedia. Two years were spent in studying every phase of the project, in arranging its details and in selecting the requisite methods for carrying on the work carefully and expeditiously. While a systematic procedure was thus determined upon, it by no means precluded later discussion of ways and means; the system itself required that each step should be seriously considered, and for this purpose the regular meetings of the Board were continued during the entire course of publication.

On January 11, 1905, Charles G. Herbermann, Professor of Latin and Librarian of the College of the City of New York, Edward A. Pace, then Professor of Philosophy in the Catholic University, Condé B. Pallen, Editor, Rt. Rev. Thomas J. Shahan, then Professor of Church History in the Catholic University, and John J. Wynne, S.J., Editor of The Messenger, held their first editorial meeting at the office of The Messenger, in West Sixteenth Street, New York. Between that date and April 19, 1913, they held 134 formal meetings to consider the plan, scope and progress of the work, besides having frequent informal conferences and constant intercommunication by letter.
...


Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija

link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htm
Albanija

While every other race in the Balkans, with the exception of the Western Serbs, called Hroats (Croats), went over to schism, the Roman Catholic faith remained secure in the fastnesses of northern Albania.



Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13732a.htm

Hrvatska
Since 1848 the Catholic Serbs, who are in large part subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, have been under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Bishop of Diakovo, in Slavonia. Although freedom of religion was constitutionally guaranteed by the Congress of Berlin, the position of the Catholic Church is a disadvantageous one, as the Orthodox clergy put various difficulties in the way of parochial work. In the course of the nineteenth century negotiations were several times begun for the erection of a Latin bishopric in Servia.




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04769c.htm

Hrvatska - Đakovo.

Diakovár is also the seat of a district court; in 1900 it contained 6824 inhabitants, mostly Catholics, of whom 65 per cent were Serbs and 28 per cent Germans.




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07663a.htm

Austrougarska
The name of Illyria then disappeared from history, only to acquire new significance through the modern history of Austria. Under Leopold I (1636-1705) the Serbs or Raizi, who had been established on Hungarian territory since 1690, were designated as the Illyrian nation; to provide for their protection against Magyar incursions a special office was created at the Court of Vienna, known as the Illyrian Court Deputation, which was abolished in 1777, and in 1791 enjoyed a brief revival as the "Illyrian Imperial Chancery." Napoleon united the territories on the Adriatic Sea, ceded by Austria in the Peace of Schoenbrunn, in 1809, with Croatia and Ragusa, under the title of the "Seven Illyrian Provinces," made them a part of the French empire, and placed their administration in the hands of a governor general (Marmont, Funot, and Fouqué).




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10529c.htm

Crna Gora

Montenegro has an area of 3630 sq. miles and a population of 250,000 inhabitants, of whom the great majority are of unmixed Serb stock. About 223,500 belong to the Greek Orthodox Church; 12,900 are Catholics (mostly Albanians), and about 14,000 are Mohammedans. The capital is Cetinje.




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm

Bosna i Hercegovina
According to the census of 22 April 1895, Bosnia has 1,361,868 inhabitants and Herzegovina 229,168, giving a total population of 1,591,036. The number of persons to the square mile is small (about 80), less than that in any of the other Austrian crown provinces excepting Salzburg (about 70). This average does not vary much in the six districts (five in Bosnia, one in Herzegovina). The number of persons to the square mile in these districts is as follows: Doljna Tuzla, 106; Banjaluka, 96; Bihac, 91; Serajevo, 73, Mostar (Herzegovina), 65, Travnik, 62. There are 5,388 settlements, of which only 11 have more than 5,000 inhabitants, while 4,689 contain less 500 persons. Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs. Although one in race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions: the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about 674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per cent).



Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04490a.htm
Križevci

About the year 1600 numerous Serbs emigrated from Servia and Bosnia to Croatia, where they found coreligionists, known to historians since the fourteenth century as Wallachians. The emigrants soon took the same name. Some of them were converted to Catholicism through the efforts of Dimitrovich, Latin Bishop of Agram, who granted their leader, the monk Simeon Vratania.



1.gif



Eto, ovo stavimo u naše udžbenike istorije pod izgovorom verske tolerancije prema rimikatoličkoj doktrini.

 
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/00001a.htm

Kako je i kada nastala Katolička enciklopedija

Encyclopedia was begun in January, 1905. It was completed in April, 1914. For two years before the formation of a Board of Editors those who were to be its editors and publishers met together occasionally to confer about its publication. These meetings resulted in an agreement among the editors on December 8, 1904, to begin the work early the next year and in the choice of those who were to be its publishers.

The Board of Editors, five in number, was organized in January, 1905, and its membership remained the same throughout the production of the work. All the members had been engaged in editorial work before the Encyclopedia was thought of. As teachers and lecturers they had become familiar with the field of education and with the needs of Catholic literature. Through experience gained in different spheres of activity they had reached the same conclusions regarding the necessity of a Catholic Encyclopedia and the advisability of proceeding at once with its publication.

The editors were elected also as members of the Board of Directors of the publishing company which was incorporated in February, 1905, and they were given full authority in all matters affecting the nature, contents and policy of the Encyclopedia. On February 25 they signed a contract to produce The Catholic Encyclopedia. Two years were spent in studying every phase of the project, in arranging its details and in selecting the requisite methods for carrying on the work carefully and expeditiously. While a systematic procedure was thus determined upon, it by no means precluded later discussion of ways and means; the system itself required that each step should be seriously considered, and for this purpose the regular meetings of the Board were continued during the entire course of publication.

On January 11, 1905, Charles G. Herbermann, Professor of Latin and Librarian of the College of the City of New York, Edward A. Pace, then Professor of Philosophy in the Catholic University, Condé B. Pallen, Editor, Rt. Rev. Thomas J. Shahan, then Professor of Church History in the Catholic University, and John J. Wynne, S.J., Editor of The Messenger, held their first editorial meeting at the office of The Messenger, in West Sixteenth Street, New York. Between that date and April 19, 1913, they held 134 formal meetings to consider the plan, scope and progress of the work, besides having frequent informal conferences and constant intercommunication by letter.
...


Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija

link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htm
Albanija

While every other race in the Balkans, with the exception of the Western Serbs, called Hroats (Croats), went over to schism, the Roman Catholic faith remained secure in the fastnesses of northern Albania.



Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13732a.htm

Hrvatska
Since 1848 the Catholic Serbs, who are in large part subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, have been under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Bishop of Diakovo, in Slavonia. Although freedom of religion was constitutionally guaranteed by the Congress of Berlin, the position of the Catholic Church is a disadvantageous one, as the Orthodox clergy put various difficulties in the way of parochial work. In the course of the nineteenth century negotiations were several times begun for the erection of a Latin bishopric in Servia.




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04769c.htm

Hrvatska - Đakovo.

Diakovár is also the seat of a district court; in 1900 it contained 6824 inhabitants, mostly Catholics, of whom 65 per cent were Serbs and 28 per cent Germans.




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07663a.htm

Austrougarska
The name of Illyria then disappeared from history, only to acquire new significance through the modern history of Austria. Under Leopold I (1636-1705) the Serbs or Raizi, who had been established on Hungarian territory since 1690, were designated as the Illyrian nation; to provide for their protection against Magyar incursions a special office was created at the Court of Vienna, known as the Illyrian Court Deputation, which was abolished in 1777, and in 1791 enjoyed a brief revival as the "Illyrian Imperial Chancery." Napoleon united the territories on the Adriatic Sea, ceded by Austria in the Peace of Schoenbrunn, in 1809, with Croatia and Ragusa, under the title of the "Seven Illyrian Provinces," made them a part of the French empire, and placed their administration in the hands of a governor general (Marmont, Funot, and Fouqué).




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10529c.htm

Crna Gora

Montenegro has an area of 3630 sq. miles and a population of 250,000 inhabitants, of whom the great majority are of unmixed Serb stock. About 223,500 belong to the Greek Orthodox Church; 12,900 are Catholics (mostly Albanians), and about 14,000 are Mohammedans. The capital is Cetinje.




Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02694a.htm

Bosna i Hercegovina
According to the census of 22 April 1895, Bosnia has 1,361,868 inhabitants and Herzegovina 229,168, giving a total population of 1,591,036. The number of persons to the square mile is small (about 80), less than that in any of the other Austrian crown provinces excepting Salzburg (about 70). This average does not vary much in the six districts (five in Bosnia, one in Herzegovina). The number of persons to the square mile in these districts is as follows: Doljna Tuzla, 106; Banjaluka, 96; Bihac, 91; Serajevo, 73, Mostar (Herzegovina), 65, Travnik, 62. There are 5,388 settlements, of which only 11 have more than 5,000 inhabitants, while 4,689 contain less 500 persons. Excluding some 30,000 Albanians living in the south-east, the Jews who emigrated in earlier times from Spain, a few Osmanli Turks, the merchants, officials. and Austrian troops, the rest of the population (about 98 per cent) belong to the southern Slavonic people, the Serbs. Although one in race, the people form in religious beliefs three sharply separated divisions: the Mohammedans, about 550,000 persons (35 per cent), Greek Schismatics, about 674,000 persons (43 per cent), and Catholics, about 334,000 persons (21.3 per cent).



Izvor: Katolička enciklopedija
link:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04490a.htm
Križevci

About the year 1600 numerous Serbs emigrated from Servia and Bosnia to Croatia, where they found coreligionists, known to historians since the fourteenth century as Wallachians. The emigrants soon took the same name. Some of them were converted to Catholicism through the efforts of Dimitrovich, Latin Bishop of Agram, who granted their leader, the monk Simeon Vratania.



1.gif



Eto, ovo stavimo u naše udžbenike istorije pod izgovorom verske tolerancije prema rimikatoličkoj doktrini.
Čudno ali i interesantno. Hvala Mrkalj. :ok:
 
Ništa čudno. Zvanična istorija je politička farsa.

Samo si se malo pogubio u tom da CatEn je produkt svoga doba, te da je u podjeli teritorija raznim narodima protuslovna, kako se već o kom članku radi- šo je tvoja trajna patnja...

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04510a.htm

The executive head of the Croats was the "ban" a title still in use, and he had unlimited power as leader and governor of the people. Heraclius, the Byzantine emperor, was compelled to abandon his provinces in the western part of the Balkan Peninsula. At that time the Croats occupied the following provinces: Illyricum Liburnia, Pannonia, Dalmatia, and a part of Histria, now known respectively as Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia, Istria, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their kinsmen, the Serbs, settled in Montenegro, Northern Albania, Old Servia, and the western part of the Servian Kingdom. The cities of Zara (Zadar or Jadera), Trau (Trogir or Tragurion), Spalato (Spljet), and Ragusa (Dubrovnik), on the Dalmatian coast, and the islands Veglia (Krk) and Arbe (Rab or Absorus), in the Adriatic, remained Latin in character. Elsewhere, however, the assimilative power of the Croats was stronger and the Latin race disappeared.
 
At that time the Croats occupied the following provinces: Illyricum Liburnia, Pannonia, Dalmatia, and a part of Histria, now known respectively as Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia, Istria, Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their kinsmen, the Serbs, settled in Montenegro, Northern Albania, Old Servia, and the western part of the Servian Kingdom. The cities of Zara (Zadar or Jadera), Trau (Trogir or Tragurion), Spalato (Spljet), and Ragusa (Dubrovnik), on the Dalmatian coast, and the islands Veglia (Krk) and Arbe (Rab or Absorus), in the Adriatic, remained Latin in character. Elsewhere, however, the assimilative power of the Croats was stronger and the Latin race disappeared.
Šta je ovo, čas likovnog? Kojoj boji slova daješ prioritet? :think:
 
Ne znam jesam li već pitao ovde...
Čitao u nekim hrvatskim izvorima na netu, tragajući za nekim prezimenima u Dalmaciji.

U Dubrovniku je 1245. zabeležen izvesni Domanja de Gverero (negde stoji Gvereris), sudija i savetnik. Ženski članovi porodice sa imenima Prvoslava, Draga, Desa, Dobra... Sve poudate za lokalne plemiće, recimo Volcasse (Vukassović). Rod navodno izumro 1304.

Elem, ko su ti ljudi bili? Vidi se očigledna latinizacija prezimena (našao sam brdo primera po Dalmaciji). Jesu to bili neki lokalni Sloveni, Srbi, šta...
 
Ne znam jesam li već pitao ovde...
Čitao u nekim hrvatskim izvorima na netu, tragajući za nekim prezimenima u Dalmaciji.

U Dubrovniku je 1245. zabeležen izvesni Domanja de Gverero (negde stoji Gvereris), sudija i savetnik. Ženski članovi porodice sa imenima Prvoslava, Draga, Desa, Dobra... Sve poudate za lokalne plemiće, recimo Volcasse (Vukassović). Rod navodno izumro 1304.

Elem, ko su ti ljudi bili? Vidi se očigledna latinizacija prezimena (našao sam brdo primera po Dalmaciji). Jesu to bili neki lokalni Sloveni, Srbi, šta...

""
Sažetak
Iako brojem stanovnika nevelika, Dubrovačka Republika sastavljena je od nekoliko međusobno vrlo različitih mikrocjelina. Njezin specifičan politički položaj zemlje posrednice između dviju velesila, posrednice između Istoka i Zapada, između Sredozemlja i balkanskog zaleđa, kao i njezin specifičan zemljopisni položaj i zmijoliki izgled, uvjetovao je raznolikost u gotovo svim segmentima života. Široki spektar zanimanja, od trgovine i brodarstva do ribarstva i zemljoradnje, stvorio je na tom malom prostoru raznolike mikroregije - gradske, ruralne, pomorske, stvorio je više tipova naselja, gradskih i seoskih, brdskih i primorskih, kopnenih i otočkih. U mnoštvu dubrovačkih posebnosti posebno se ističe Lastovo. Taj najudaljeniji dubrovački posjed i otok, stečen u 13. stoljeću, imao je veći stupanj autonomije od bilo kojeg drugog dubrovačkog posjeda. Preuzimajući otok, Općina dubrovačka je prisegla, kako to piše u Statutu grada Dubrovnika iz 1272. godine, da će zadržati sve njihove stare običaje, koje sami međusobno održavaju. Dubrovnik, dakle, nije uništio dotadašnju konstelaciju, nije unutar vlastita povlaštenog kruga raspodijelio lastovsku zemlju, nego je održao kontinuitet. Lastovci su postali dubrovački podanici, ali su ostali vlasnici svoje zemlje. Nisu pokmećeni, kao što se to dogodilo žiteljima kasnije stečenih posjeda na Pelješcu, u Dubrovačkom primorju i Konavlima. ""
https://www.bib.irb.hr/268917?lang=en&rad=268917
 
Načitao sam se takvih tekstova svojevremeno. Ipak me i dalje interesuje ko su bili ti ljudi poput Domanje de Gverera iz 13. veka, koji su imali ćerke Prvoslave, Dobre, Drage itd. Odakle to prezime De Gverero/Gvereris? Da li su imali neko starije, slovensko prezime?

Pošto sam pre nekoliko godina kopao o poreklu bratstva Gvera, pronašao sam neke oblike tog prezimena u Dubrovniku i Zadru. Navešću još neki primer.

Zadar, 15. vek. Grgur Gverčević (ser Georgius Guercevich) 1465. postaje prior hospitala svetog Martina. Onda, 1582. isto u Zadru zabeležen je neki Guerzo Lorenzo, a u fusnoti pored stoji samo napisano "Grgur Gverčević", bez objašnjenja na šta se konkretno misli... da li se radi o potomku? Rodbini? Teško da se radi o istoj osobi osim ako nije živeo 150+ godina. I onda, 1586. popisan je Lorenco Gverini, isto građanin Zadra. Pa to već mora bitj ista osoba kao i Lorenzo Guerzo. U svakom skučaju, šta povezuje prvobitnog Grgura Gverčevića sa tim Gverinijima? A ajmo malo dalje, 1605. u Zadru je zabeležen Frančesko Gverčević.

Da stvar bude još zakomplikovanija, 1574. se u Zadru (tačnije, u Salima ali kao građani Zadra) pojavljuje porodica Gverini, kao novodoseljena italijanska trgovačka porodica. Prvi se pominje Hilarije (Ilario) Gverini koji 1583. podiže crkvu svetom Nikoli i koja je ispisana glagoljicom. Jesu li se Italijani služili glagoljicom? Imao sam pre slike te crkve. Ime Gverini se na natpisu meni čini napisanim kao "Gveris", no dobro. Da skratim priču oko tih Gverinija koji su postali najbogatija trgovačka porodica u Hrvatskoj jer sam im izgubio trag već nakon par generacija, ali zanimljivo je da sam u italijanskim izvorima pronašao da su mletačke porodice Gverini/Gvera zapravo, dalmatinskog porekla. To piše u jednom zborniku mletačkih plemićkih porodica, a navodi se u italijanskom članku o porodici na vikipediji. Ko tu onda nije u pravu, hrvatski izvori ili italijanski? Ili je bilo više linija sa istim prezimenom?
 
Načitao sam se takvih tekstova svojevremeno. Ipak me i dalje interesuje ko su bili ti ljudi poput Domanje de Gverera iz 13. veka, koji su imali ćerke Prvoslave, Dobre, Drage itd. Odakle to prezime De Gverero/Gvereris? Da li su imali neko starije, slovensko prezime?

Pošto sam pre nekoliko godina kopao o poreklu bratstva Gvera, pronašao sam neke oblike tog prezimena u Dubrovniku i Zadru. Navešću još neki primer.

Zadar, 15. vek. Grgur Gverčević (ser Georgius Guercevich) 1465. postaje prior hospitala svetog Martina. Onda, 1582. isto u Zadru zabeležen je neki Guerzo Lorenzo, a u fusnoti pored stoji samo napisano "Grgur Gverčević", bez objašnjenja na šta se konkretno misli... da li se radi o potomku? Rodbini? Teško da se radi o istoj osobi osim ako nije živeo 150+ godina. I onda, 1586. popisan je Lorenco Gverini, isto građanin Zadra. Pa to već mora bitj ista osoba kao i Lorenzo Guerzo. U svakom skučaju, šta povezuje prvobitnog Grgura Gverčevića sa tim Gverinijima? A ajmo malo dalje, 1605. u Zadru je zabeležen Frančesko Gverčević.

Da stvar bude još zakomplikovanija, 1574. se u Zadru (tačnije, u Salima ali kao građani Zadra) pojavljuje porodica Gverini, kao novodoseljena italijanska trgovačka porodica. Prvi se pominje Hilarije (Ilario) Gverini koji 1583. podiže crkvu svetom Nikoli i koja je ispisana glagoljicom. Jesu li se Italijani služili glagoljicom? Imao sam pre slike te crkve. Ime Gverini se na natpisu meni čini napisanim kao "Gveris", no dobro. Da skratim priču oko tih Gverinija koji su postali najbogatija trgovačka porodica u Hrvatskoj jer sam im izgubio trag već nakon par generacija, ali zanimljivo je da sam u italijanskim izvorima pronašao da su mletačke porodice Gverini/Gvera zapravo, dalmatinskog porekla. To piše u jednom zborniku mletačkih plemićkih porodica, a navodi se u italijanskom članku o porodici na vikipediji. Ko tu onda nije u pravu, hrvatski izvori ili italijanski? Ili je bilo više linija sa istim prezimenom?
Možda od talijanske riječi guerra (rat) u smislu ratnik, u vojnoj službi pa se u slavenskom stanovništvu iskrivilo jer je tako lakše izgovoriti. Prostor na kome se javlja, uvijek u vezi sa Mlečanima, bi išlo tome u prilog.
 

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