Srednjovekovna Hrvatska

A šta je ono što je Fransoa Hotman objavio?
Srpska kraljevska dalmatinska loza je bila katolicka, bez ikakve sumnje sve do Stefana Prvovencanog. Medjutim taj dogadjaj, prelazak na istocne obred, je bacio senku sumnje na citavu lozu. Vatikanu je bio potreban pravi katolicki neuprljani kralj Dalmacije.
Nasli su ga u Dimitriju. Hrvatska tamo, Hrvatska amo, sta ima veze 😁
 
Srpska kraljevska dalmatinska loza je bila katolicka, bez ikakve sumnje sve do Stefana Prvovencanog. Medjutim taj dogadjaj, prelazak na istocne obred, je bacio senku sumnje na citavu lozu. Vatikanu je bio potreban pravi katolicki neuprljani kralj Dalmacije.
Nasli su ga u Dimitriju. Hrvatska tamo, Hrvatska amo, sta ima veze 😁

Evo, pošto me je mrzelo da prevodim kopirao sam lat. tekst od Baronija u prevodilac i ovako ide tekst Zvonimirove zavernice na engleskom jeziku:

"In the name of the Holy and Undivided Trinity, in the year of the Lord's Incarnation one thousand seventy-six, in the fourteenth indiction, in the month of October. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia, having been invested and established as king over the realms of the Croatians and the Dalmatians through the standard, sword, scepter, and crown in a synodal and harmonious election of the whole clergy and people in the basilica of Saint Peter in Salona by you, Lord Gebizo, who holds authority from our Lord Pope Gregory through the Apostolic See, do vow, promise, and pledge to you that I shall unchangeably fulfill all that your revered holiness commands me, specifically, that in all things, I shall observe faithfulness to the Apostolic See, and whatsoever here in the kingdom both the Apostolic See and its legates have decreed, or shall decree, I shall uphold irreversibly, cultivate justice, defend the churches, ensure the first fruits, tithes, and all church-related matters are handled, provide that bishops, priests, deacons, and subdeacons live chastely and regularly, protect the poor, widows, and orphans, destroy illicit familial unions while establishing legitimate dowries with a ring and the blessing of a priest, and not allow them to be corrupted, condemn the sale of people, and in all things conducive to a state of righteousness, as God enables, I shall show myself just. I also decree that a tribute of two hundred Byzantine coins, agreed upon by all my principalities, be paid annually to Saint Peter on the Day of the Lord's Resurrection from my granted kingdom. And that those who reign after me might continually adhere to this, I assess, strengthen, and decree this. Furthermore, I give, grant, and confirm to the Apostolic See of Saint Gregory the monastery called Vrana, with all its treasure, namely with a silver casket containing the relics of the holy body of the blessed Gregory, with two crosses, with a chalice and paten, with two golden crowns adorned with gems, with a silver text of the Gospels, and with all its movable and immovable goods, so that it always serves as a hospice for the Legates of Saint Peter, and in all things be under their authority. However, it is stipulated that no other authority shall be given, but at all times it shall belong to Saint Peter, and be defended by me and my successors, and be free and secure from all men. Whoever with audacious temerity deprives the aforementioned monastery of its designated treasure, let him hear that dreadful voice of the Judge, which the devil and his angels shall hear. Moreover, since to serve God is to reign, on behalf of blessed Peter and our Lord Pope Gregory, and those who will sit in the Apostolic See after him, I commit and commend myself to your hands, this fidelity I establish by oath. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God and the gift of the Apostolic See, from this hour henceforth will be faithful to Saint Peter and my lord Pope Gregory, and his canonically entering successors, and as he himself, or future popes or their legates, should they lose their life, or limb, or be captured, I shall neither be in counsel nor in deed with them, and any counsel trusted to me to their detriment I shall not knowingly disclose to anyone. The kingdom which through your hand, Lord Gebizo, is entrusted to me, I shall hold faithfully, and never will I withdraw its right from the Apostolic See by any means. My Lord Pope Gregory and his successors and legates, if they come into my power, I shall receive honorably, treat respectfully, release, and wherever they invite me, as I am able, I shall serve them simply. This I do there."

Objasni ti meni sada:
1) Vidiš li Salonu?
2) Vidiš li Hrvatsku?
3) Vidiš li Dalmaciju?
 
Evo, pošto me je mrzelo da prevodim kopirao sam lat. tekst od Baronija u prevodilac i ovako ide tekst Zvonimirove zavernice na engleskom jeziku:

"In the name of the Holy and Undivided Trinity, in the year of the Lord's Incarnation one thousand seventy-six, in the fourteenth indiction, in the month of October. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God Duke of Croatia and Dalmatia, having been invested and established as king over the realms of the Croatians and the Dalmatians through the standard, sword, scepter, and crown in a synodal and harmonious election of the whole clergy and people in the basilica of Saint Peter in Salona by you, Lord Gebizo, who holds authority from our Lord Pope Gregory through the Apostolic See, do vow, promise, and pledge to you that I shall unchangeably fulfill all that your revered holiness commands me, specifically, that in all things, I shall observe faithfulness to the Apostolic See, and whatsoever here in the kingdom both the Apostolic See and its legates have decreed, or shall decree, I shall uphold irreversibly, cultivate justice, defend the churches, ensure the first fruits, tithes, and all church-related matters are handled, provide that bishops, priests, deacons, and subdeacons live chastely and regularly, protect the poor, widows, and orphans, destroy illicit familial unions while establishing legitimate dowries with a ring and the blessing of a priest, and not allow them to be corrupted, condemn the sale of people, and in all things conducive to a state of righteousness, as God enables, I shall show myself just. I also decree that a tribute of two hundred Byzantine coins, agreed upon by all my principalities, be paid annually to Saint Peter on the Day of the Lord's Resurrection from my granted kingdom. And that those who reign after me might continually adhere to this, I assess, strengthen, and decree this. Furthermore, I give, grant, and confirm to the Apostolic See of Saint Gregory the monastery called Vrana, with all its treasure, namely with a silver casket containing the relics of the holy body of the blessed Gregory, with two crosses, with a chalice and paten, with two golden crowns adorned with gems, with a silver text of the Gospels, and with all its movable and immovable goods, so that it always serves as a hospice for the Legates of Saint Peter, and in all things be under their authority. However, it is stipulated that no other authority shall be given, but at all times it shall belong to Saint Peter, and be defended by me and my successors, and be free and secure from all men. Whoever with audacious temerity deprives the aforementioned monastery of its designated treasure, let him hear that dreadful voice of the Judge, which the devil and his angels shall hear. Moreover, since to serve God is to reign, on behalf of blessed Peter and our Lord Pope Gregory, and those who will sit in the Apostolic See after him, I commit and commend myself to your hands, this fidelity I establish by oath. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God and the gift of the Apostolic See, from this hour henceforth will be faithful to Saint Peter and my lord Pope Gregory, and his canonically entering successors, and as he himself, or future popes or their legates, should they lose their life, or limb, or be captured, I shall neither be in counsel nor in deed with them, and any counsel trusted to me to their detriment I shall not knowingly disclose to anyone. The kingdom which through your hand, Lord Gebizo, is entrusted to me, I shall hold faithfully, and never will I withdraw its right from the Apostolic See by any means. My Lord Pope Gregory and his successors and legates, if they come into my power, I shall receive honorably, treat respectfully, release, and wherever they invite me, as I am able, I shall serve them simply. This I do there."


Objasni ti meni sada:
1) Vidiš li Salonu?
2) Vidiš li Hrvatsku?
3) Vidiš li Dalmaciju?
Opet ti fejk postujes. A jeste neizlecivi slucajevi vi sledbenici alternative istorije. Ovo je zavjernica 😁


1724533300889.png
 
Opet ti fejk postujes. A jeste neizlecivi slucajevi vi sledbenici alternative istorije. Ovo je zavjernica 😁


Pogledajte prilog 1598384

Pa ja sam to i citirao, gore.

..hear that dreadful voice of the Judge, which the devil and his angels shall hear. Moreover, since to serve God is to reign, on behalf of blessed Peter and our Lord Pope Gregory, and those who will sit in the Apostolic See after him, I commit and commend myself to your hands, this fidelity I establish by oath. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God and the gift of the Apostolic See, from this hour henceforth will be faithful to Saint Peter and my lord Pope Gregory, and his canonically entering successors, and as he himself, or future popes or their legates, should they lose their life, or limb, or be captured, I shall neither be in counsel nor in deed with them, and any counsel trusted to me to their detriment I shall not knowingly disclose to anyone. The kingdom which through your hand, Lord Gebizo, is entrusted to me, I shall hold faithfully, and never will I withdraw its right from the Apostolic See by any means. My Lord Pope Gregory and his successors and legates, if they come into my power, I shall receive honorably, treat respectfully, release, and wherever they invite me, as I am able, I shall serve them simply. This I do there."

Jesi li nešto hteo da kažeš time, citiranjem samo poslednjih par redaka?

Je li to ona tvoja stara taktika da uzmeš rečenicu i pošto ti ne odgovara šta piše u njoj, preskočiš početak i sredinu i citiraš samo njen sami kraj, praveći se kao da u ostatku rečenice ne piše to što ti se lično ne sviđa? 🤔
 
Pa ja sam to i citirao, gore.

..hear that dreadful voice of the Judge, which the devil and his angels shall hear. Moreover, since to serve God is to reign, on behalf of blessed Peter and our Lord Pope Gregory, and those who will sit in the Apostolic See after him, I commit and commend myself to your hands, this fidelity I establish by oath. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God and the gift of the Apostolic See, from this hour henceforth will be faithful to Saint Peter and my lord Pope Gregory, and his canonically entering successors, and as he himself, or future popes or their legates, should they lose their life, or limb, or be captured, I shall neither be in counsel nor in deed with them, and any counsel trusted to me to their detriment I shall not knowingly disclose to anyone. The kingdom which through your hand, Lord Gebizo, is entrusted to me, I shall hold faithfully, and never will I withdraw its right from the Apostolic See by any means. My Lord Pope Gregory and his successors and legates, if they come into my power, I shall receive honorably, treat respectfully, release, and wherever they invite me, as I am able, I shall serve them simply. This I do there."


Jesi li nešto hteo da kažeš time, citiranjem samo poslednjih par redaka?

Je li to ona tvoja stara taktika da uzmeš rečenicu i pošto ti ne odgovara šta piše u njoj, preskočiš početak i sredinu i citiraš samo njen sami kraj, praveći se kao da u ostatku rečenice ne piše to što ti se lično ne sviđa? 🤔
Poslednji par redaka, buahahahahaha.
1724535914169.png

Pateticni Trol 😁
 
Poslednji par redaka, buahahahahaha.
Pogledajte prilog 1598395
Pateticni Trol 😁

Je li ti znaš uopšte šta tu piše? Da li možeš da citiraš, tačno, na koje reči sa te slike ili iz mog prevoda, ti ciljaš?

Mislim, stvarno, čuj, patetični trol. :roll: Ovo redovno radiš kada se ispostavi da ništa što si pisao nije tačno i ostaneš bez bukvalno ikakvih argumenata u svoju korist, pa, pošto nemaš nikakvih dokaza za svoje tvrdnje, jedino što ti ostaje jeste da se služiš sa argumentum ad hominem.

Zašto ne bi, jednom, za promenu — probao da razgovaraš, malo, i o istoriji? Šta ti vidiš tu, šta želiš da kažeš, šta su argumenti za koju tvrdnju...To što si iznad napisao, doslovno je vrhunac licemerja, zato što me nazivaš trolom, dok je ovo što ti radiš — doslovno — sama definicija trolovanja.
 
Da rekapituliramo
Pismo Grgura 7 Dimitriju kralju Rutena

1724537929054.png


Pismo Dimitrija kralja Rutena Grguru 7

1724537981797.png


Grgur i Dimitrije koriste identicnu terminologiju, pozivaju se na apostolsku crkvu, svetog Petra, itd......


Produzeno Dimitrijevo pismo koje koristi Slaven sadrži elemente kojima se rutenski kralj proglašava dalmatinsko htvatskim. Ali to je produžena zavjernica, tipa produženi Porfirogenit, produženi Toma....itd....
 
Da rekapituliramo
Pismo Grgura 7 Dimitriju kralju Rutena

Pogledajte prilog 1598403

Pismo Dimitrija kralja Rutena Grguru 7

Pogledajte prilog 1598404

Grgur i Dimitrije koriste identicnu terminologiju, pozivaju se na apostolsku crkvu, svetog Petra, itd......


Produzeno Dimitrijevo pismo koje koristi Slaven sadrži elemente kojima se rutenski kralj proglašava dalmatinsko htvatskim. Ali to je produžena zavjernica, tipa produženi Porfirogenit, produženi Toma....itd....

A je li ti možeš da objasniš iz kog si razloga tačno odsekao samo poslednje redove jednog teksta?

Mislim...ne kapiram. Ne pitam samo zato što meni nije jasno, već zato što mislim da ti nisi svestan da bukvalno niko ko čita ove tvoje objave ne kapira šta ti to pokušavaš da kažeš, tačno, i na osnovu čega.

Je li možeš probati makar da obrazložiš kakvog je značaja žmurenje na većine teksta i istrgavanje iz konteksta samo jednog delića, na samom kraju? Mislim...šta ti tačno zamišljaš, kada razmišljaš o ovim stvarima o kojima pišeš u svojoj glavi? Kako ide u ovom slučaju tvoj misaoni proces, konkretno?

Šta je to produženo? Koji je deo koji nije produžen, tačno. Kako glasi? Šta je tačno produženo, gde, kada i kako si ti precizno utvrdio navodno interpolisane segmente?

Ili, evo, da ja tebi postavim neko preciznije pitanje, u nadi da ćemo doći do barem nekakvog raščivijanja ove žestoke konfuzije u koju smo sada upali:

Grgur i Dimitrije koriste identicnu terminologiju, pozivaju se na apostolsku crkvu, svetog Petra, itd......

Je li tebi poznato da li postoji neko papsko pismo bez te terminologije? Neko u kojem Crkva nije apostolska?

Da li shvataš da pokušavaš na osnovu prilično opštih mesta da napraviš nekakve konekcije?
 
A je li ti možeš da objasniš iz kog si razloga tačno odsekao samo poslednje redove jednog teksta?

Mislim...ne kapiram. Ne pitam samo zato što meni nije jasno, već zato što mislim da ti nisi svestan da bukvalno niko ko čita ove tvoje objave ne kapira šta ti to pokušavaš da kažeš, tačno, i na osnovu čega.

Je li možeš probati makar da obrazložiš kakvog je značaja žmurenje na većine teksta i istrgavanje iz konteksta samo jednog delića, na samom kraju? Mislim...šta ti tačno zamišljaš, kada razmišljaš o ovim stvarima o kojima pišeš u svojoj glavi? Kako ide u ovom slučaju tvoj misaoni proces, konkretno?

Šta je to produženo? Koji je deo koji nije produžen, tačno. Kako glasi? Šta je tačno produženo, gde, kada i kako si ti precizno utvrdio navodno interpolisane segmente?

Ili, evo, da ja tebi postavim neko preciznije pitanje, u nadi da ćemo doći do barem nekakvog raščivijanja ove žestoke konfuzije u koju smo sada upali:



Je li tebi poznato da li postoji neko papsko pismo bez te terminologije? Neko u kojem Crkva nije apostolska?

Da li shvataš da pokušavaš na osnovu prilično opštih mesta da napraviš nekakve konekcije?
Jaki su ti argumenti
 
Jaki su ti argumenti

Mak koji moji, prićamo o tvojim argumentima.

Ti kažeš da je ovo izvorna Zvonimirova darovnica:

..hear that dreadful voice of the Judge, which the devil and his angels shall hear. Moreover, since to serve God is to reign, on behalf of blessed Peter and our Lord Pope Gregory, and those who will sit in the Apostolic See after him, I commit and commend myself to your hands, this fidelity I establish by oath. I, Demetrius, also called Suinmur, by the grace of God and the gift of the Apostolic See, from this hour henceforth will be faithful to Saint Peter and my lord Pope Gregory, and his canonically entering successors, and as he himself, or future popes or their legates, should they lose their life, or limb, or be captured, I shall neither be in counsel nor in deed with them, and any counsel trusted to me to their detriment I shall not knowingly disclose to anyone. The kingdom which through your hand, Lord Gebizo, is entrusted to me, I shall hold faithfully, and never will I withdraw its right from the Apostolic See by any means. My Lord Pope Gregory and his successors and legates, if they come into my power, I shall receive honorably, treat respectfully, release, and wherever they invite me, as I am able, I shall serve them simply. This I do there."

Hajde da vidimo, gde počinje? Pošto se radi o tekstu koji kreće u sred rečenice, pretpostavljam da ne tvrdiš da počinje, prosto, odavde.

Je li možeš da probaš da obrazložiš svoj stav? Ovako, garantujem ti van svake doze sumnje, doslovno te niko ne razume (ne ja, nego nema žive duše koja čita ove redove).
 
Samo kralj Tomislav je neusporedivo veća povijesna figura od svih Nemanjića skupa. Jedno slovo na papinu pismu Tomislavu iz tog vremena vrijedi više nego cijeli Dušanov zakonik i njegov truli femur.
Ма тебе ударила промаја. Пази, то уме да буде зезнуто.
 
Hajde da vidimo, gde počinje? Pošto se radi o tekstu koji kreće u sred rečenice, pretpostavljam da ne tvrdiš da počinje, prosto, odavde.

Je li možeš da probaš da obrazložiš svoj stav? Ovako, garantujem ti van svake doze sumnje, doslovno te niko ne razume (ne ja, nego nema žive duše koja čita ove redove).
Tip te zajebaje a ti se trudiš uvjeriti ga u nešto...
 
Pa, što se tiče Zvonimirove zavernice, već smo ovde kačili oba rukopisa u kojima je ona očuvana, a koji su i digitalizovani.

Kardinal Svetog Petra iz Vinkolija Deuzdedit je napisao krajem XI stoleća jednu kolekciju kanona (Collectio canonum) posvetivši ga papi Viktoru III (1086-1087). Tu zbirku počeo je sastavljati još za vreme pontifikata Grgura VII (1073-1085) još 1083. godine, kao sastavni deo, da se tako izrazimo, gregorijanske reforme i opšteg poduhvata koji je taj papa bio pokrenuo.

Od fol 91v rukopisa (Vat. Lat. 3833) počinje deo u kojem je upisana Zvonimirova zavernica:

zvonimirovo1-jpg.1459831


https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.lat.3833

Ovo je najstariji primer. Nastao je još za života samog kralja Dmitra Zvonimira. Rukopis je iz početka XII stoleća.
1724576029283.png


Žvrljaju alternativci, škrabaju, dopisuju.....
 
A šta si ovo citirao, inače?

Nikada ne postaviš linkove i objasniš šta kačiš; samo male sličice.
Vidiš Slavene, ja nemam politički ili poslovni interes poput tebe, jedino me zanima da dodjem što bliže istini.

Baronije se nije ni pozvao na Deuzdedita već na Honorija III, tako da ćemo njega da prečešljamo.

Ali verovatnoća da su istovremeno postojali rutenski kralj Dimitrije i dalmatinski kralj Dimitrije, pa su još bogati jedne godine komunicirali sa istim papom Grgurom 7 i jedan i drugi, nije ravna nuli, ravna je minus beskonačno. To vredja zdrav razum. I gde je tu oštra kritika i metodologija koju propagiraš stalno?
 

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