Slovensko nasleđe u Grčkoj

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Atentator:
Unlikely, because Morea, well before the Venetians. is mentioned as the name of a small bishopric in Elis during the 10th century. This is during the re-christianization period of the peninsula. Consider also that is precisely Elis region exclusively Slavic at the time, so more plausible that the term comes from the word More - sea.
https://books.google.com/books?id=e...=onepage&q=morea first mentioned Elis&f=false
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Very interesting, thank you.

Recently, there was some discussion about Slavs in Thessaly. I will soon be posting medieval (new for me) references of Slavs (Bulgarians in the texts) in Thessaly - perhaps in a different thread.
 
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Atentator:
To be fair, not all light hair/eyes are Slavic originated.. For one, significant chunk of Greece was ruled by Western European from 4rd Crusade to 15th century.
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Key term: ruled. They conquered and ruled, but there was a deep mutual hatred, and as a result, little to no intermarriage between the communities.

Your first point stands, regardless. Light hair and eye colour do not necessarily constitute proof of Slavic origin.
 
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haeul:
Key term: ruled. They conquered and ruled, but there was a deep mutual hatred, and as a result, little to no intermarriage between the communities.
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Intermarriage proof:

The Gasmouloi were the descendants of mixed "Byzantine Greek" and "Latin" (West European, most often Italian) unions during the last centuries of the Byzantine Empire. As the Gasmouloi were enrolled as marines in the Byzantine navy by Emperor Michael VIII Palaiologos (r. 1259–1261), the term eventually lost its ethnic connotations and came to be applied generally to those owing a military service from the early 14th century on.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasmouloi
 
Carlin15:
Intermarriage proof:

The Gasmouloi were the descendants of mixed "Byzantine Greek" and "Latin" (West European, most often Italian) unions during the last centuries of the Byzantine Empire. As the Gasmouloi were enrolled as marines in the Byzantine navy by Emperor Michael VIII Palaiologos (r. 1259–1261), the term eventually lost its ethnic connotations and came to be applied generally to those owing a military service from the early 14th century on.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasmouloi
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Your point is what, exactly? I clearly said "little to no". The article which you linked confirms that:

Following the Fourth Crusade, mixed unions between Greeks and Latins occurred to a very limited extent when the Latin Empire and the other Western principalities were established on Byzantine soil.
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haeul:
Your point is what, exactly? I clearly said "little to no". The article which you linked confirms that:
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You're basically wrong in your premise that because of deep mutual hatred there was little to no intermixing - which there was. Let's not get stuck on technicalities. : )

As an additional example, like Cyprus, a lot of intermixing took place as we can see from John Murray:

"...in the plains and the cities the present people of Cyprus are a race so mixed of Italian, Tatar, Syrian, and even Negro elements, as to have become a caput mortuum, whence no facts of ethnological value can be extracted."

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=ue...us&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
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Carlin15:
You're basically wrong in your premise that because of deep mutual hatred there was little to no intermixing - which there was. Let's not get stuck on technicalities. : )

As an additional example, like Cyprus, a lot of intermixing took place as we can see from John Murray:

"...in the plains and the cities the present people of Cyprus are a race so mixed of Italian, Tatar, Syrian, and even Negro elements, as to have become a caput mortuum, whence no facts of ethnological value can be extracted."

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=ue...us&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
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No, let's stick to technicalities. You quoted an article that supports my statement, and are now quoting a worthless 140-year-old literary journal that makes a passing reference to the people of Cyprus. Need I say more?
 
haeul:
Key term: ruled. They conquered and ruled, but there was a deep mutual hatred, and as a result, little to no intermarriage between the communities.

Your first point stands, regardless. Light hair and eye colour do not necessarily constitute proof of Slavic origin.
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Western Europeans have been estimated as constituting one- third of the population in the towns of central Greece in the fourteenth century, and this proportion has been accepted for Frankish Greece as a whole. Certainly they were less present in the countryside but still their number is not to be ignored.
Unless you think they were all evacuated right after destruction of various Frankish states, they must have been assimilated at some point. Of course initially, intermarriage was avoided, but scarcity of Western women, gradual absorbing into the Orthodox religion (including the Latin elite in some cases) all that contributed to removing the obstacles. In the early fourteenth century intermarriage between Westerners and Greek women is mentioned as an issue in papal letters. So by then it must have become a problem that cannot be ignored.
 
Atentator:
Western Europeans have been estimated as constituting one- third of the population in the towns of central Greece in the fourteenth century, and this proportion has been accepted for Frankish Greece as a whole. Certainly they were less present in the countryside but still their number is not to be ignored.
Unless you think they were all evacuated right after destruction of various Frankish states, they must have been assimilated at some point. Of course initially, intermarriage was avoided, but scarcity of Western women, gradual absorbing into the Orthodox religion (including the Latin elite in some cases) all that contributed to removing the obstacles. In the early fourteenth century intermarriage between Westerners and Greek women is mentioned as an issue in papal letters. So by then it must have become a problem that cannot be ignored.
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As you likely already aware, at that time, the urban population made up a mere fraction of the total population. There was certainly some intermarriage, but by no means enough to speak of a significant impact.

No, not all Westerners were evacuated, but a fair number of them died fighting, or were expelled.

And, in any case, the Western Europeans were hardly all fair-skinned and blond, so you point doesn't stand.
 
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1) URL: https://www.haaretz.com/amp/archaeo...genetically-diverged-in-middle-ages-1.5489323

Mainland Greeks Genetically Diverged From Islanders in the Middle Ages

Genetic analysis proves that following thousands of years of conquests and migrations, peoples living around the Mediterranean today share common ancestors, with one surprising outlier: Greece

The peoples living today around the Mediterranean Sea are all related, after thousands of years of intermittently attacking and loving each other, a new genetic study has unsurprisingly shown. However, the data from the international team of scientists found a startling exception: mainland Greeks, who seem to be genetically closer to Albanians than to their brethren in the Greek islands.

Different genes for different Greeks

The scientists did find the expected degree of genetic continuity extending from Sicily to Cyprus.

The scientists were not expecting to find that the people in the Greek islands appear genetically closer to southern Italians than to the people in continental Greece.

Meanwhile, the mainland Greeks, including the Peloponnese in southern Greece, had become slightly differentiated. They clustered with populations from the southern Balkans, including Kosovo and Albania.

2) URL: https://www.freeinquiry.gr/single-post.php?id=480

Modern Greece is by no means related either genetically or culturally to the ancient cosmos and the people who once occupied this land. The modern greeks are just an intermixture of balkan tribes (albanians/arvanites, slavs, wlachs) which in the process of time mingled with northern africans, armenians and other tribes of Anatolia, not to mention the francs and the venetians who were also dominantly present in this land.
 
AELarisa:
The first period of Serbian rule in Thessaly, (1348-1356)

http://ir.lib.uth.gr/bitstream/handle/11615/15457/article.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
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Little gift :poklon:

Ο πληθυσμός 654 οικισμών του ελληνικού τμήματος της Μακεδονίας το 1920 κατά θρησκεία και γλώσσα στη στατιστική του 1920 του Milojevic

milojevic_.jpg


http://www.lithoksou.net/p/o-plithy...makedonias-1920-kata-thriskeia-kai-glossa-sti

Zhensko (Kukush, Кilkis) Ginekokastron ?

_DSC0433.jpg


I found in some old travelbook that was "Woman-town" (Avret-hisar) - Zhensko/Женско- because some Slav- widow held it . I'll put this one day on the net.
https://antigoldgr.org/blog/2011/04/03/avret-hisar/

U starijim putopisima našla sam i toponim "Žensko", koji se odnosi na "Ženski grad" , potonji Avret-hisar. (i ovaj turski naziv e ustvari vulgaran prevod "ženskog" brda na kome je grad)
Postaviću jednom kad stignem.

content


Fig. 7. Gynaikokastro, Kilkis.
(Archives of N. Moutsopoulos)
http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/av/av_1_4.htm
https://books.google.rs/books?id=vG...EIQjAF#v=onepage&q=avret hisar Kilkis&f=false
https://www.gynaikokastro-kilkis.eu/en/the-area/the-region
 
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AELarisa:
Zdravo!
Kako ste?

I found out another Greek surname that probably comes from Serbian. Drulias (probably equivalent to Drlja or maybe Drljaca). My teacher in elementary school had this surname. :)
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It is mentioned in Vlach surnames in eastern Serbia as Drulić, possible connection is Moscopoli exodus from 1769 to 1821. or one of the earlier Tsintsar moves towards Wallachia.
 
Lesandar:
It is mentioned in Vlach surnames in eastern Serbia as Drulić, possible connection is Moscopoli exodus from 1769 to 1821. or one of the earlier Tsintsar moves towards Wallachia.
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In Greek it has no meaning. If it doesn't have any meaning in Vlach/Romanian language, then i guess the origin must be slavic.
Also, the Vlachs have people of slavic origin among them.
And btw i am bored seeing always someone saying that everything is connected to Vlachs. If there is a meaning in Vlach language, then i would be happy to hear it. :)
 
AELarisa:
In Greek it has no meaning. If it doesn't have any meaning in Vlach/Romanian language, then i guess the origin must be slavic.
Also, the Vlachs have people of slavic origin among them.
And btw i am bored seeing always someone saying that everything is connected to Vlachs. If there is a meaning in Vlach language, then i would be happy to hear it. :)
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I wouldn't know what is the meaning of this word, but the surname (or variations of it) can be found among Romanians (Drulea...), Macedonians and Bulgarians (Durlov, Durlovski...), etc. Perhaps it is a word of native Balkan origin, perhaps Slavic, maybe even Turkish.

Curiously, the word 'derula' can be found in Romanian and it has several meanings: 'to unroll', 'to unwind', etc. It could be pure coincidence of course.
https://translate.google.ca/?hl=en&tab=wT#ro/en/derula
https://dexonline.ro/definitie/derulare
 
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AELarisa:
In Greek it has no meaning. If it doesn't have any meaning in Vlach/Romanian language, then i guess the origin must be slavic.
Also, the Vlachs have people of slavic origin among them.
And btw i am bored seeing always someone saying that everything is connected to Vlachs. If there is a meaning in Vlach language, then i would be happy to hear it. :)
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You are right, there is a surname in Ukraine and Russia Drull - друль, with soft voice at the end. Huh, it`s source is not albanian DRU. (joke :rotf:)
 
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Solun - Soli - Solin :kafa:

The name Σαλονίκη Saloníkē is first attested in Greek in the Chronicle of the Morea (14th century), and is common in folk songs, but it must have originated earlier, as al-Idrisi called it Salunik already in the 12th century. It is the basis for the city's name in other languages: Солѹнь (Solun) in Old Church Slavonic, סלוניקה (Salonika) in Ladino, Selânik سلانیك in Ottoman Turkish and Selanik in modern Turkish, Solun or Солун in the local and neighboring South Slavic languages, Салоники (Saloníki) in Russian, and Sãrunã in Aromanian, and Salonica or Salonika in English.[SUP][22][/SUP]


Dakle, u ovu pučku etimologiju, stavljenu na pijedestal zvanične, ništa ne verujem:

The original name of the city was Θεσσαλονίκη Thessaloníkē. It was named after princess Thessalonike of Macedon, the half sister of Alexander the Great, whose name means "Thessalian victory", from Θεσσαλός 'Thessalos', and Νίκη 'victory' (Nike), honoring the Macedonian victory at the Battle of Crocus Field (353/352 BCE).
Minor variants are also found, including Θετταλονίκη Thettaloníkē,[SUP][17][/SUP][SUP][18][/SUP] Θεσσαλονίκεια Thessaloníkeia,[SUP][19][/SUP] Θεσσαλονείκη Thessaloneíkē, and Θεσσαλονικέων Thessalonikéōn.[SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP]
 
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