Slovenski toponimi čine većinu toponima Albanije - ko bi se tome nadao? (Google maps)


Buffff ! Previše!

Sa mreže skinuto , bez referenci, promenili su od 1913-1996.g, oko 4400 slovenskih toponima

Број до сада регистрованих „измењених топонима“ (у периоду 1913.-1996.) по регионима Грчке:

- Македонија (енг. Macedonia, тј. грч. Μακεδονία): 1.805;
- Пелопонез (енг. Peloponnese, тј. грч. Πελοπόννησος): 827;
- Централна Грчка (енг. Central Greece, тј. грч. Στερεά Ελλάδα): 519;
- Тесалија (енг. Thessaly, тј. грч. Θεσσαλία): 487;
- Епир (енг. Epirus, тј. грч. Ήπειρος): 454;
- Тракија (енг. Thrace, тј. грч. Θράκη): 98;
- Крит (енг. Crete, тј. грч. Κρήτη): 97;
- Егејска острва (енг. Aegean Islands, тј. грч. Νησιά Αιγαίου): 79;
- Јонска острва (енг. Ionian Islands, тј. грч. Ιόνια νησιά): 47.
Opet sa neta skinuto:


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''Немогуће је рећи када су тачно Словени у Грчкој почели да се осећају Ромејима. У неким областима, нпр. Хелади, овај процес је текао врло брзо, док је у другим (Пелопонез, Македонија) био веома спор, па чак и до данас није потпуно окончан.''[Т. Живковић, Јужни Словени, 258]
У Епиру су се, иначе, трагови словенства одржали све негде до XV века, о чему сведоче и тамошњи многобројни словенски топоними.

Вајунити се такође не могу просторно прецизно лоцирати. На основу неколико топонима који недвосмислено асоцирају на њихово име (као нпр. Вајунитија), претпоставља се да су обитавали у Епиру, северно од залива Арта и у околини данашње Јањине.

Велегезити су, према записима у Чудима св. Димиtрија, настањивали источну Тесалију, око залива Волос.

... у плодном Солунском пољу западно од града живе Сагудати и Дрогувити; нека од њихових села су потпуно словенска, док су друга мешовита, словенско-ромејска; нека су под управом града (тј. солунског стратега), док нека плаћају данак Бугарима.. Т. Живковић, Јужни Словени, 248.

Dobar rad
http://www.arhivnis.co.rs/cirilica/idelatnost/br 3/cslovenskisavet.htm
 
Poslednja izmena:
http://translate.google.com/#sr|sq| Сребро
Ali priznaj da si bila porazhena sa S.Novakovicem

Pristojan je rečnik, teşekkür ederim, ali htela sam da saznam pridev.
Gjiro+kaster nećeš da nam objasniš namerno? Iz turskog je, zatoz:mrgreen:
Iste su kuće tamo (sa kamenim krovom) kao kod srpskog Zavojskog jezera, takav teren valjda, isti srpski narod živeo i tu i tamo.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._panorama.jpg/800px-Gjirokaster,_panorama.jpg
http://www.pressonline.rs/sr/vesti/regioni/story/64881/ČUVARI+KAMENOG+SELA.html
http://www.klubputnika.com/photo/kameni-krov-stara-planina?xg_source=activity
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/13835369

Novaković nije popisao bas sva mala mesta, ko je smeo da putuje u ona vremena tamo ? Mečki na rupu!?
Propustio je ovo slatko mestasce, bliže Sarandi (opet turski koren naziva naselje) nego Đirokastru (Srebrogradu?)
Od Sarande je 25 km, nedaleko su Bodrište i Pepela , kao i Bistrice

Lütfen:zelenko2:

Zervati.jpg
Houses_in_Zervati.jpg


koje ima vinjagu ispred svake kuće, manastir i nekoliko crkvi (SvPetke,Sv.Dimitrija, Sv Nikole) .
Naziv mu je sa grčkim v
ZERVATI

U mom prethodnom postu vidi se i promenjen grčki naziv
zervatikodsarande.jpg
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kao i da u njemu nijednog Albanca 1913.g. a ima 158 pravoslavaca


Slike sela "Zervati" ,also known as Zervat
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Zervati
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/26832386
http://www.tripmondo.com/albania/qarku-i-gjirokastres/zervat/picture-gallery-of-zervat/
http://www.tripmondo.com/albania/qarku-i-gjirokastres/zervat/#

Istorijat sela "Zervati" na grčkom
http://www.zervati.gr/hist/index.html#_Toc90794020

Poseban "zervatski" dijalekt
http://www.zervati.gr/lex/p3.html

Zervat na mapi
39.91° N and 20.28° E.
http://travelingluck.com/Europe/Albania/Gjirokastër/_363199_Zervat.html#local_map
http://www.behindcity.com/explore/albania/gjirokaster/zervati/
http://www.mapmonde.org/europe/albania/qarku-i-gjirokastres/zervat-3082113/

Jos neki linkovi
http://iguide.travel/Sarandë/Nearby_Destinations#/Photos
http://www.slideshare.net/madopol/your-file-christian-saints-of-albania-by-robert-elsiepdf

P.S.
I, gle još šta čudesni gugl povezuje "s onu strana ilirskog tropolja":
na istoj longitudi je i grčki ZERVAT
Zervata is located in Kefallinia, Greece. 38.2167° N 20.65° E.
http://nona.net/features/map/placedetail.744682/Zerváta/
Places with similiar names to Zerváta, Greece ::
Servotá (GR) // Sirvidai (LT) // Zervat (AL) // Cerovi Do (BA) // Serveto (ES) // Siravato (MG) //
 
Poslednja izmena:
Kako onda Car Dushan =proglashen i za Cara Arbanasa , znajuci da je on od doba pre dolaska osmanlije na Balkanu :think:

z:cry:
Nigde i nikad nije pomenuto da je Car Dušan kralj nekog zasebnog "albanskog naroda"..nego samo teritorije koja se naziva Arbanon ,Alvanija i slično, znači koristi se "romejski izraz istočnog tipa" da objasni srpski izraz RABAN.

Napr, ovaj izvor:
samoteritorijaalvanaija.jpg


Sličnu stvar pamtimo i sa "vladarima i knezovima Hrvatske", zemlje Hrvatske u kojoj Hrvata "ni od korova".....gde je, opet, termin upotrebljen u teritorijalnom smislu, a ni do dana današnjeg niko nije raspetljao ko su ti "etnički Hrvati" , naravno, kad se izuzmu teorije o Belim Ogurima ili avarskom etničkom "štoku".

Jasno je, kroz Dušanov zakonik, napr.da se doseljeni Arnavudi ( kažu da to znači na turskom "oni koji se nisu vratili". verovatno u postojbinu kavkasku) imaju status male etničke grupe, kao napr. danasnje nacionalne manjine ....pa imaju i povlastice (bas kao Romi danas u demokratskoj republici Srbiji)..njima je porez manji.

A još, iz 1308.g postoji zapis koji kaže da ti isti isti Arnavudi žive kao nomadi, u šatorimaz;)
U ovom istom zborniku 75-76 imate referncu.


Zato car Dušan uvodi malo reda, kad se već muvaju tu. da ih nauči redu..odredjuje im zakonske kazne ako sa stadima koje čuvaju utrčavaju u naseljena mesta..a raspisuje im i simbolični "PDV"..ista je referenca kao i gore..
To se danas može uporediti sa Romima koji ne plaćaju PDV kad prodaju robu po vašarima ili pijačnim tezgama, i ne izdaju nikad i nikome fiskalne račune..žive u "cigan-mahalama" kao što su Arnavudi u Rabanu živeli u fisovima po katunima..........a verujem da će se pronaći , u 19.v. napr i neki dokument koji Romima zabranjuje ulazak sa mečkama u naseljena mesta.., da moja paralela bude ubedljivija.
Takve vladarske ili vladine mere su neophodne kad se na civilizovanu teritoriju ušunjaju i nastane primitivci.

Koja su to druga slovenska plemena , a da nisu Srbi , na tom prostoru ?
Da lib i neko moga da mi opise srednjevekovnog Arbanasa (pre dolaska Turaka), ne verujem da su genetski istovetni delu danasnjih(mozda gresim) .
Pogotovo ove koji se spominju na severu Albanije
Meni nije jasno zasto su Arbanasi imali slovenska imena ???


Руски конзул Јастребов, добар познавалац Арбанаса, сматрао је да се прави арбанашки тип може наћи у племенској структури северне Албаније
(Рач, Пулат, Никај, Мертури), јер сви они који сада говоре арбанашки нису по пореклу Арбанаси, него су то пословењени или романизовани Дарданци, Трибали, Скордисци и други; прави Арбанас je ситан и мршав и имао je у себи нечег феничанског или циганског.[26] Арбанаси северно од реке Шкумбе су брахицефали а јужно од реке долихоцефали, дакле биолошки различити типови.[27]
Код одређивања положаја Алванона и праваца првих спуштања са планина заборављају се изричити наводи византијских извора и подела Арбанаса на Геге и Тоске од искона.
Првобитни историјски Арбанаси били би, дакле, Геге, чији говор представља старији развојни стадиј арбанашког језика...

Bogumil Hraban,
http://www.rastko.rs/rastko-al/zbornik1990/bhrabak-sirenje.php

A "Gege" (verovatno s u se gegali, po autohtoničarima) su sa GEGHAMA (Gegačkih) planina,

Geghama-mountains.10.jpg
image032.gif

Armenian: Գեղամա լեռնաշղթա (Gyeghama lyernashxt'a), ruski:Гега́мский хребе́т , ranije Ахманган
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geghama_mountains

Još od tih "gega" toponima, opet iz Armenie kavkaske
tvrdjava Geghi Berd, Keghi Berd or Kegh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakavaberd

Naselje Nor Geghi, Armenian: Նոր Գեղի, also Romanized as Nor Gekhi; formerly, Chatkran and Bazmavan
http://www.weather-forecast.com/locationmaps/Nor-Geghi.10.jpg

Oblast Keghi (Khorzen, Geghi),- the westernmost district of Historic Armenia (today it is in Turkey)
Reka Geghi
http://www.alltravels.com/armenia/all-regions/kajaran/photos/current-photo-36166893
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/36166893

itd..

ALEKSANDAR LOMA
ALBANO-CAUCASICA PASTORALIA


Ovo sam bas pre neku nedelju gledao po Albaniji uz caj onako bezveze i malo se i zacudio :D
VLADO,
šta si gledao? O Zervatima?
 
Poslednja izmena:
z:cry:
Nigde i nikad nije pomenuto da je Car Dušan kralj nekog zasebnog "albanskog naroda"..nego samo teritorije koja se naziva Arbanon ,Alvanija i slično, znači koristi se "romejski izraz istočnog tipa" da objasni srpski izraz RABAN.

Napr, ovaj izvor:
samoteritorijaalvanaija.jpg

Ne znam koliko je autentično, ali u Dušanovom zakoniku stoji car Arbanasa odnosno 'Arbanasima'.
 
Ne znam koliko je autentično, ali u Dušanovom zakoniku stoji car Arbanasa odnosno 'Arbanasima'.

Цитат?

Знам само да је строго забрањивао насељавање Власима и Арбанасима као и да су плаћали дупли порез. Да је тако као што кажеш ( у Законику једна и друга групација су увек заједно) он би се титулисао као цар Влаха и Арбанаса, и што је најважније: ДА ЈЕ ИСТИНА да су они наследници Ромеја, односно да су неки фактор, сигурно би их унео у своју титулу, јер му је циљ био да буде Свети Римски Цар. Овако, остаје чињеница да се према њима односио исто као и Византија, били су оно што јесу, лутајући кавкаски сточари.
 
Ne znam koliko je autentično, ali u Dušanovom zakoniku stoji car Arbanasa odnosno 'Arbanasima'.

Naravno da ima i Dušanovih titula đe se pominju Arvaniti ili Arbanasi:

"V Hrista Boga blagoverni car Vsem Srbljem i Grkom, i Stranama blgarskim i vsemu Disou, Pomorju, Frugiže i Arvanitom – milostiju i pomočiju božieju samodržavni car", a u jednoj povelji iz 1348. godine on je titulisan kao "Car i samodržac Srbljem, Grkom, Blgarom i Arbanasom"

Međutim Srebrna je u pravu (djelimično) - ovdje su u pitanju teritorije bez obtira što su iskazane etnonimičnim nazivima - u titulama vladara je uvijek riječ o teritorijama. A te teritorije, to jest najveći dio njih, su upravo dobile ime po etnicitetima, odnosno srednjovjekovnim narodima.

Ali se Arbanasi pojavljuju u poveljama srpskih vladara i to baš kao etnicitet.
 
Naravno da ima i Dušanovih titula đe se pominju Arvaniti ili Arbanasi:

"V Hrista Boga blagoverni car Vsem Srbljem i Grkom, i Stranama blgarskim i vsemu Disou, Pomorju, Frugiže i Arvanitom – milostiju i pomočiju božieju samodržavni car", a u jednoj povelji iz 1348. godine on je titulisan kao "Car i samodržac Srbljem, Grkom, Blgarom i Arbanasom"

Međutim Srebrna je u pravu (djelimično) - ovdje su u pitanju teritorije bez obzira što su iskazane etnonimičnim nazivima - u titulama vladara je uvijek riječ o teritorijama. A te teritorije, to jest najveći dio njih, su upravo dobile ime po etnicitetima, odnosno srednjovjekovnim narodima.

Ali se Arbanasi pojavljuju u poveljama srpskih vladara i to baš kao etnicitet.

Dok čekamo da Slaven pronadje neku fotografiju sa titulama car Dušana, ja se pitam kako mi "prevodimo" sopstveni termin napisan na način tuđeg jezika.
Stavila sam onaj
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4375/samoteritorijaalvanaija.jpg
da je "vizantizam" Alvanija odredjivao teritoriju u Dušanovoj tituli..i da se termin upotrebljava tek od sredine 14.veka..(vreme šatora, znači)

Kako se mi ponašamo danas, napr. sa rečima koje završavaju na s u tuđim jezicima, napr ako je neko "King of Tunis" da li je kralj Tunisa (teritorija) ili Tunižana,Tunišanaca,Tunisa (etniciteta)..i slično (King of Marakas je kralj zemlje Marakas ili ljudi-Marakasa,Marakasana) (King of Belgia je kralj Belgije. teritorije ili ljudi Belgijanaca-, ako ima takvih) ?
Ovi Tunižani imali bi korelaciju u terminu "Arbanasin" koju navodi St.Novaković ,kao prevod od prevoda, tako ja razumem ovaj problem.

Kazino, ako sam te dobro razumela
Ali se Arbanasi pojavljuju u poveljama srpskih vladara i to baš kao etnicitet.
Kako bi danas opissali nekog vladara koji uparvlja teritorijom od Jadrana do Crnog i Egejskog mora? Isto bi morali da nabrojimo neke odrednice..titula bi bila mnogo dugačka.. ali sigurna sam da bi prednost svako dao teritorijalnom kriterijumu..

..tu uvek postoji mogućnost (posebno u vreme Cara dušana) da se pod Arbanasima/Rabanašima mislilo na srpski etnicitet, odnosno na one koji su naseljavali rabanski (tomorski) prostor u vreme bar od vremena oca Sv. Jovana Vladimira pa nadalje...kao da danas kažemo "oni Durmitorci" ili "oni staroplaninci" ili "oni fruškogorci", .
Ti si video da se baš misli na Geghe?Ove koji su do 14.veka živeli nomadski, po šatorima?
Neverovatno je da se to misli: kao kad bi danas (zbog holandskih kampera na Palićkom jezeru) govorili da Vojvodinu nastanjuju Holandasi.
Za ovaj deo Rabana/Arbanije (od Škumbe do Vojuše samo, sa Beratom-Beogradom kao centrom) stari autori pišu da je tu živelo slovensko pleme Vojnića..dok su u Tesaliji napr Velegostići..

Dušan je naprimer postavio svog rođaka da vlada Rabanom..Nemanja je taj deo smatrao "dedovinom"..granice teritorije svJovana Vladimira nisu jasne niti njegovog oca Petrislava..jer Vladimiru, posle ropstva kod Samuila, isti VRAĆA oduzete teritorije .... izvući ću vam ovih dana iz literature koju imam koliko se zadužbina pamti iz tog prenemanjićkog doba...dok čitam ja se zgražavam koliko je stvari pokriveno mrakom i nepomenuto..napr
ovo sada tražim, u okolini Korče/Gorice..otprilike oko 970.g.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6406/petrislavotacvladimirov.jpg
 
Poslednja izmena:
Dok čekamo da Slaven pronadje neku fotografiju sa titulama car Dušana, ja se pitam kako mi "prevodimo" sopstveni termin napisan na način tuđeg jezika.
Stavila sam onaj
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4375/samoteritorijaalvanaija.jpg
da je "vizantizam" Alvanija odredjivao teritoriju u Dušanovoj tituli..i da se termin upotrebljava tek od sredine 14.veka..(vreme šatora, znači)

Kako se mi ponašamo danas, napr. sa rečima koje završavaju na s u tuđim jezicima, napr ako je neko "King of Tunis" da li je kralj Tunisa (teritorija) ili Tunižana,Tunišanaca,Tunisa (etniciteta)..i slično (King of Marakas je kralj zemlje Marakas ili ljudi-Marakasa,Marakasana) (King of Belgia je kralj Belgije. teritorije ili ljudi Belgijanaca-, ako ima takvih) ?
Ovi Tunižani imali bi korelaciju u terminu "Arbanasin" koju navodi St.Novaković ,kao prevod od prevoda, tako ja razumem ovaj problem.

Kazino, ako sam te dobro razumela
Ali se Arbanasi pojavljuju u poveljama srpskih vladara i to baš kao etnicitet.
Kako bi danas opissali nekog vladara koji uparvlja teritorijom od Jadrana do Crnog i Egejskog mora? Isto bi morali da nabrojimo neke odrednice..titula bi bila mnogo dugačka.. ali sigurna sam da bi prednost svako dao teritorijalnom kriterijumu..

..tu uvek postoji mogućnost (posebno u vreme Cara dušana) da se pod Arbanasima/Rabanašima mislilo na srpski etnicitet, odnosno na one koji su naseljavali rabanski (tomorski) prostor u vreme bar od vremena oca Sv. Jovana Vladimira pa nadalje...kao da danas kažemo "oni Durmitorci" ili "oni staroplaninci" ili "oni fruškogorci", .
Ti si video da se baš misli na Geghe?Ove koji su do 14.veka živeli nomadski, po šatorima?
Neverovatno je da se to misli: kao kad bi danas (zbog holandskih kampera na Palićkom jezeru) govorili da Vojvodinu nastanjuju Holandasi.
Za ovaj deo Rabana/Arbanije (od Škumbe do Vojuše samo, sa Beratom-Beogradom kao centrom) stari autori pišu da je tu živelo slovensko pleme Vojnića..dok su u Tesaliji napr Velegostići..

Dušan je naprimer postavio svog rođaka da vlada Rabanom..Nemanja je taj deo smatrao "dedovinom"..granice teritorije svJovana Vladimira nisu jasne niti njegovog oca Petrislava..jer Vladimiru, posle ropstva kod Samuila, isti VRAĆA oduzete teritorije .... izvući ću vam ovih dana iz literature koju imam koliko se zadužbina pamti iz tog prenemanjićkog doba...dok čitam ja se zgražavam koliko je stvari pokriveno mrakom i nepomenuto..napr
ovo sada tražim, u okolini Korče/Gorice..otprilike oko 970.g.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6406/petrislavotacvladimirov.jpg

Srebrna, upravo sam to i rekao - u titulama vladara Arvanitom ili Arbanasom je zapravo Albanija. A taj pojam Nemanjići nabrajaju kao teritoriju tek pošto je Albanija postala regnum (1272) čijim djelom vladaju. Kao što je Srbljem u titulama uvijek Srbija, Blgarom je Bugarska itd. Srednjovjekovni vladari uvijek nabrajaju teritorije - tada nema nacionalizma XIX vijeka da se pretenduje da se svi svoji sunarodnici okupe u jednu nacionalnu državu.
Međutim kada se u srednjovjekovnim poveljama spominju Arbanasi riječ je o etnicitetu i to je više nego jasno. Naravno da tu nije riječ o Srbima jer što bi Jelena Anžujska ili Milutin spominjali pored Srba Arbanase - i to ne na teritoriji Albanije, već u Zeti? Što bi ih spominjali statuti primorskih gradova uz Srbe i Latine? I nisu svi Albanci bili stočari - to je bila većina njih. Dio će postati niži feudalci, dio će prodrijeti u gradove - za sve Arbanase neće važiti isti zakoni.
 
Srebrna, upravo sam to i rekao - u titulama vladara Arvanitom ili Arbanasom je zapravo Albanija. A taj pojam Nemanjići nabrajaju kao teritoriju tek pošto je Albanija postala regnum (1272) čijim djelom vladaju.
Знаш, ових дана сам баш много читала о тој "Албанији" па ми се чини исправнији, да у титулама та територија одговара само старом делу - Рабан, а не данашњим границама Алабаније. Можда си и ти исто мислио, него, за сваки случај да нагласим.
Ја реагујем (не директно на твој пређашњи пост него уопште, на целу ту проблематику) због тога да се не схвати погрешно, да само зато што се у титули помиње област Алванија, то значи да је била попуњена Шћипетарима у 14.веку. Биће оних који ће то да извлаче отуда.

Моје лично мишљење је да се у титули Душановој подразумева под "Србска" територија од западне Босне до реке Искар у дан.Бугарско, а на југу до линије Охрид-Елбасан ("Старе Србије"..)..а под "Арбанаси" територија да се мисли само на Томоришку област (нови Епир) или Рабан.

Управо сам извукла из књиге Стојана Новаковића Балканска питања неколико делића који појашњавају титуле наших владара, па погледајте сви
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casinoroyalsrpskezemlje.jpg


casinorojaltitula.jpg


Још
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4024/casinoroyalgranicesrbai.jpg



I nisu svi Albanci bili stočari - to je bila većina njih. Dio će postati niži feudalci, dio će prodrijeti u gradove - za sve Arbanase neće važiti isti zakoni.
Неоспорно..како време пролази..

Međutim kada se u srednjovjekovnim poveljama spominju Arbanasi riječ je o etnicitetu i to je više nego jasno. Naravno da tu nije riječ o Srbima jer što bi Jelena Anžujska ili Milutin spominjali pored Srba Arbanase - i to ne na teritoriji Albanije, već u Zeti? Što bi ih spominjali statuti primorskih gradova uz Srbe i Latine?

И може да буде тако а и не мора.
Стеван Стојановића су звали Мокрањац по месту одакле је дошао у Београд..има у прошлости данашње Румуније неки Васил Арбанас..верујем да је досељеник са територије око Белграда рабанашког, а не Шћипетар. У Истамбул је у 16.веку исељено много Београђана (из "Сингидунума") али то им није етницитет.
Осетљива су та тумачења, као напр. још гори пример:територија Бугарске где у средњем веку срећеш три главне врсте народа:блгаре, мешавину блгарско-словенских племена и чисте Србе. Св.Јован Рилски напр. је био од српског етноса, али пошто је планина Рила данас у саставу Бугарске неретко га сматрају Бугарином.
Истина је такође то што кажеш да је термин "нације" био у средњем веку другачији .
Имам поверења да ћеш да схватиш зашто ситничарим, не зато што теби лично оспоравам неки навод, него зато што има превише погрешних интерпретација о свему и свачему.
 
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One of the problems with the Slavic toponyms in the Balkans is that the isogloss dividing the South Slavic language into two groups, the Bulgarian on the one side and Serbo-Croat, Slovenian on the other side, form this very odd shape, because the Western branch dents the Eastern. Dialects which are spoken in West Bulgaria (Belogradchik and Trn) and North Macedonia (Kumanovo, Tetovo, Skopska Crna Gora, Kriva Palanka, Kratovo and Ovce Pole) actually belong to the Western Branch, because they have typical West South Slavic characteristics like tj that became soft k and dj that became a soft g, as well as “u” change for the original Slav “ǫ” or “u” for the word “in”, instead of “v” which is used in Bulgarian, as well as “njega” instead of “nego” and “mi” instead of “nie”.

the dialects of Trъn, Belgoradchik and Breznica in Bulgaria (+ Knjazhevac, Pirot, Leskovac and Vranje) are regarded by the Bulgarian dialectology as transitional, i.e. exhibiting mixed features. You listed some of the Serbian ones, here is the Bulgarian view.

On the other hand, archaic toponyms testify that East South Slavic dialects were spoken in South Kosovo and Metohija and as far as Pirot, where West South Slavic dialects are spoken now, which shows that Slavs speaking Western Dialects migrated into this region. The prominent Serbian Linguist Pavle Ivic explained this problem and the fact that the West/East isogloss forms an unexpected geographical shape, as a consequence of a long divide between the two branches of the South Slavic ethnos, who were separated by Vlachs and Albanians that lived in that area, for the first couple of centuries after the Slavs settled in the Balkans; professor Ivic goes on to say, that once the Vlachs migrated to Romania and elsewhere, and the Albanians to Albania, Slavs speaking Western dialects moved into this area, and thus this “dent” was formed.

what I have read from Bulgarian side (Gavriil Zanetov, Anastas Ishirkov) is that they regard the Morava valey being depopulated 200-300 years ago, after the Austro-Ottoman wars and local uprisings and migrations in the XVII-XVIII cc. The old inhabitants moved to the Austrian lands. So new people came to area later, from the west, south and east, and what the Bulgarian historiography claims as "Bulgarian" are the migrants who came from Macedonia and Western Bulgaria. But almost all villages were mixed, with people arriving from everywhere, so this way a new, mixed dialect was formed.

But West/East isogloss divide has no impact on National or Ethnic conciseness, because the speakers of the Western dialects both in Macedonia (at least the Egzarhists until 1945) and in West Bulgarian, as well as the South Slavs east of the Juzna Morava (which some use to call B’lgarska Morava) until they were integrated into the Serbian state during the second half of the 19th century, regarded themselves as B’lgari.

you are right, but this was the situation in pre-modern times. In the era of modern national states in the Balkans what you get is that almost all Orthodox Christians in: Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece started identifying as: Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians and Greeks, regardless of their ethnic affiliations and history.

One also has to keep in mind that the Early Serb principality bordered Bulgaria in the 9th century near the town of Ras, close to today’s Novi Pazar, West South Slavic dialects were already spoken by the Slavic tribes on the Bulgarian/Eastern side of that border;

how do you know that, are there real data? Didn't tsar Simeon resettle the Serb people within the borders of Bulgaria according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus?

as the early Serb state expanded towards the East, into the region of Ras, Ibar and Toplica, as well as Lepenica (todays Sumadija), and Kosovo, during the 11th and 12th century, the local South Slav population stopped calling themselves B’lgari, a name which was imposed on them by the Slavicised Turk-Bulgars during the 10th century, with the name Srb.

I don't think the process worked like that in medieval times. Provided they were Christian, the local population, Slav or not, would identify themselves as 1. Christians first, and 2. as subjects to a certain state/kingdom, and 3. as belonging to a certain tribe. If the people of Ras, Ibar, Toplica, Lepenica in X-XI c. identified as Bulgarians/Serbians/Martians, whatever... (are there any data really?) it would have been not because of some Slavicised Bulgars/Slavicised Serbs/Croats, etc. of time bygone, but because there were Christianised/were members of a certain church.

On the other hand this process was never achieved in other South Slavic regions that the Medieval Serb state controlled, like Macedonia and the region east of the Juzna Morava, where the local South Slavic population continued to use the Bulgarian ethnonym, regardless of the dialect which they spoke, Western or Eastern.

The penetration of the Serb state to the south/Macedonia in the XIII-XIV cc. would never lead to changing the identity of the local population as these lands had old, established church structures. The identity of the "original" Bulgars from a millennium or half a millennium ago was not important whatsoever.

Despite this, Bulgarian historians hold that the Eastern South Slavs in symbiosis with the Proto-Bulgars became Bulgarians, although this is false, because both branches of the South Slavs under Bulgar rule became the Superstratum of the Bulgarian ethnos.

? at some point medieval Bulgaria extended to the Adriatic (somewhere to the north of Drach), but nobody claims that the Slavs there became Bulgarians. The standard view of the Bulgarian historiography is:
- that the "Eastern South Slavic" initially occupied large areas - Dacia, Moesia, Thracia, Macedonia and further to the south in Greece,
- but in many of these areas the Slavs were Romanised/Hellenised. Add Albanised if you like.
- So only these areas that were long enough under Bulgarian rule/Bulgarian church were the areas where the Bulgarian ethnos developed.

Bulgarian historians tend to propagate an ancient ethnic division between the Serbs and the Bulgarian Slavs, on the basis of this isogloss, but at the same time they don’t take into account that fact that the Eastern South Slavs were more closer to their Western South Slavs kin, in language, origin, race, beliefs and culture, then they were to the Turkic non-Indo-European Bulgars.

It would be better to leave the old Bulgars alone. They may have been Indo-European or not, doesn't matter. We know very little about them and even less about the old Serbs or Croats, so it is better not speculate.

how were the migrating Vlachs, who settled the territories of today’s Romania between most probably 11th and 13th century, able to assimilate a compact Bulgarian-Slav population in such a short period of time?

First, Magyars, Uzes, Pechenegs devastated Wallachia much more than the areas to the south of Danube. Then the Cumans came to rule in Wallachia in the XIII c. Plus, the anti-Orhodox policies of Hungary in the XIV c. led to a migration of Vlahs from Zagore/Transylvania. It was a gradual process and Slavic was still in use till XIV-XV cc. in the court.
 
the dialects of Trъn, Belgoradchik and Breznica in Bulgaria (+ Knjazhevac, Pirot, Leskovac and Vranje) are regarded by the Bulgarian dialectology as transitional, i.e. exhibiting mixed features. You listed some of the Serbian ones, here is the Bulgarian view.

The Serbian features in those dialects which I mentioned, according to the Serbian Linguist Pavle Ivic, are older than the East South Slavic ones, which infiltrated into those dialects, after the two dialects groups entered a longer period of closer linguistic contact. The old differences, the West/East isogloss probably dates back to the period before the Slavs migrated to the Balkans; those Slavs who lived on the territory of today’s Romania spoke the Eastern dialect, and those who lived in Pannonia spoke the Western Dialect, prior to the Balkan migration. Although this initial isogloss had no impact whatsoever on the ability of these South Slavs communicate and understand each other’s dialect (one has to remember that even West Slavs in 9th Century Moravia were able to understand Church Slavonic which was based on a South Slavic dialect, its Eastern variant).

what I have read from Bulgarian side (Gavriil Zanetov, Anastas Ishirkov) is that they regard the Morava valey being depopulated 200-300 years ago, after the Austro-Ottoman wars and local uprisings and migrations in the XVII-XVIII cc. The old inhabitants moved to the Austrian lands. So new people came to area later, from the west, south and east, and what the Bulgarian historiography claims as "Bulgarian" are the migrants who came from Macedonia and Western Bulgaria. But almost all villages were mixed, with people arriving from everywhere, so this way a new, mixed dialect was formed.

It is true that the South Morava valley was depopulated, as well as the Branicevo region, part of the Timok region (Negotinska Krajina, Kljuc, Crna Reka), but some of the original population did remain in the Morava valley, notably in the Svrljig region where the old Morava valley dialect is spoken, as well as the entire South Timok/Torlacki/Shopski (Knjazevac, Pirot, Caribrod) region were the Timok dialect is spoken (the same dialect that is spoken in Belogradchik and Trn). On the Other hand, on the eastern side of the South Morava and along the river itself, the Prizren-East Kosovo dialect is spoken (as well as in Nis, Leskovac and Vranje), it’s this region of the Morava valley that has been mainly repopulated by Serbs from East Kosovo.

you are right, but this was the situation in pre-modern times. In the era of modern national states in the Balkans what you get is that almost all Orthodox Christians in: Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece started identifying as: Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians and Greeks, regardless of their ethnic affiliations and history.

This is partially true, take Greece for example, the local Slavic population in Greek Macedonia either indentified as Bulgarian or as Slavophone Greeks, depending on what church they followed; the Arvanites became entirely integrated into the Greek nation, and the vast majority of Vlachs, apart from those who went to Romanian sponsored schools.

how do you know that, are there real data? Didn't tsar Simeon resettle the Serb people within the borders of Bulgaria according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus?

Well its logical that Western South Slavic dialects were spoken east of the early Bulgarian border during the 9th century (Serbia never controlled the region of Belogradchik, and yet the Bulgarian population in that region speaks the Western dialect), but these Western South Slavs did not belong to the old Serb tribe, they called themselves Moravians, after the Morava river. Perhaps some early Serbs tribes were resettled by the Bulgarian state, but there were already Western South Slavs living there (it’s very unlikely that those resettled old Serbs expanded all the way to Belogradchik and Trn, otherwise the Slavs in those two regions would regard themselves as Serbs and not as Bulgarians).

I don't think the process worked like that in medieval times. Provided they were Christian, the local population, Slav or not, would identify themselves as 1. Christians first, and 2. as subjects to a certain state/kingdom, and 3. as belonging to a certain tribe. If the people of Ras, Ibar, Toplica, Lepenica in X-XI c. identified as Bulgarians/Serbians/Martians, whatever... (are there any data really?) it would have been not because of some Slavicised Bulgars/Slavicised Serbs/Croats, etc. of time bygone, but because there were Christianised/were members of a certain church.

I think that language was also very important, in terms of ethnic identification (remember the word “iazik” in old Slavic also denoted people or ethnos). When the Slavs settled the Balkans, some of them already had tribal names (Serbs, Croats, Berziti, Severci) while other tribes named themselves after a certain river or a geographical location (Moravci, Strumljani, Rinhini, Neretljani, Zahumljani). Those Slavs also had a collective name which they used, when referring to other Slavic speaking tribes, which was “Sloveni”, with the meaning “people who speak our language”, while the Germans are “Nemci” because they are “Nemi”, silent, people whose language is unintelligible. During the 10th century the collective Slavic ethnonym “Sloveni”, was replaced by the Slavs who lived under the Bulgarian State (apart from the Serbs who preserved their identity), by the political name “Blgari”, and the various Slavic tribal names went into disuse- although some survived as ethnographic names, like the ethnographic name “Brsjaci- derived from the Berzit tribal name” in West Macedonia.

The penetration of the Serb state to the south/Macedonia in the XIII-XIV cc. would never lead to changing the identity of the local population as these lands had old, established church structures. The identity of the "original" Bulgars from a millennium or half a millennium ago was not important whatsoever.

The Northern part of Macedonia came under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchy of Pec during the Medieval period, and after the restoration of the Pec Patriarchy by Makarije Sokolovic through the effort of Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic; during both periods, the Serbian Patriarchs also referred to Bulgarians in their title, as Patriarchs of Serbs and Bulgarians (this fact has been used by Bulgarian historians to state that the Serbian Patriarchs acknowledged the Bulgarian ethnic character of West Macedonia and Morava Valley, but I don’t know if this interpretation is true).
 
? at some point medieval Bulgaria extended to the Adriatic (somewhere to the north of Drach), but nobody claims that the Slavs there became Bulgarians. The standard view of the Bulgarian historiography is:
- that the "Eastern South Slavic" initially occupied large areas - Dacia, Moesia, Thracia, Macedonia and further to the south in Greece,
- but in many of these areas the Slavs were Romanised/Hellenised. Add Albanised if you like.
- So only these areas that were long enough under Bulgarian rule/Bulgarian church were the areas where the Bulgarian ethnos developed.


The Slavs in today’s South Albania were initially integrated into the Bulgarian Nation (they spoke the Eastern dialect of South Slavic), but they were Albanianised- the eminent Serbian historian Sima Cirkovic wrote an article on the Albanianisation of those Slavs, as well as other Serbian historians, like Bogumil Hrabak.
The Slavs in Greece, with the exception of Macedonia and Thrace, and North Thessaly, were Hellenised after the reconquest of Greece, during the reign of Emperor Nikifor the first(who’s head eventually became the drinking cup of Khan Krum!), but some Slavic speaking people were still present in the Peloponnese, when the Turks invaded that region- the Serb historian Tibor Zivkovic wrote a Book on this topic- Juzni Sloveni pod Vizantijskom vlascu .

It would be better to leave the old Bulgars alone. They may have been Indo-European or not, doesn't matter. We know very little about them and even less about the old Serbs or Croats, so it is better not speculate.

The old Serbs and Croats were definitely Slavs, or possibly a Slavicised ethnos, but certainly Slavic speaking tribes, upon their arrival in the 7th century; other Slavic tribes in Bohemia and today’s Sorbs also carry this ethnonym, as well as the Slavic White Croats in Poland and Red Croats in Ukraine. I think there is strong linguistic and anthropological evidence (Bulgar skeletons with Mongoloid features) to backup the theory of the Bulgars Turkic origin. The Indo-Iranian or Indo-European theory about the origin of the Bulgars is purely political in my view, because of “Tursko Robstvo” (no one wants to admit that the Turkish invaders were the cousins of the people who established the Bulgarian state) and that they were an “Asiatic Horde”, as European Historiography refers to those ethnic groups.

First, Magyars, Uzes, Pechenegs devastated Wallachia much more than the areas to the south of Danube. Then the Cumans came to rule in Wallachia in the XIII c. Plus, the anti-Orhodox policies of Hungary in the XIV c. led to a migration of Vlahs from Zagore/Transylvania. It was a gradual process and Slavic was still in use till XIV-XV cc. in the court.

I agree- I always speculated that the nomadic tribes caused devastation, which resulted in a population decline; I suspect that the Slavs in Transylvania were Magyarised, because the Vlachs were not present in those territories upon the arrival of the Magyars- otherwise the Magyars would have adopted Romanian toponyms and hidronyms, but they didn’t. Genetics also confirms to an extent that today’s Romanians are partly Slavic, although some Romanian nationalists don’t like this.
 
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Možda sam, Korisniče, greškom "kvotovala" neki Vasilov citat umesto tvog, ali znaćeš razliku.



The Slavs in today’s South Albania were initially integrated into the Bulgarian Nation (they spoke the Eastern dialect of South Slavic), but they were Albanianised- the eminent Serbian historian Sima Cirkovic wrote an article on the Albanianisation of those Slavs, as well as other Serbian historians, like Bogumil Hrabak.

??
We saw those articles in author's original language.I don't remember any quote like yours.
So, be kind to send here link with this translation which we could compare with original text.

The Slavs in Greece, with the exception of Macedonia and Thrace, and North Thessaly, were Hellenised after the reconquest of Greece,
I had always have that same question about Greeks..from where they came?


he dialects of Trъn, Belgoradchik and Breznica in Bulgaria (+ Knjazhevac, Pirot, Leskovac and Vranje) are regarded by the Bulgarian dialectology as transitional, i.e. exhibiting mixed features.
.

It must be normall and expected in all senses because you talk about same people- Serbs.
You surely know that Trъn, Belgoradchik , Breznica, Sofia (Sredetz) and almost all west Bulgaria is area with serbian population. In time of bulgarian king Ferdinand Maximilian Karl Leopold Maria von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha, this serbian people are gifted to russian project , known today as Bulgaria.

It's strange coincidence that I wrote about these Serbs here yesterday .You can add some details from there to your assertive investigations.

 
Poslednja izmena:
The Serbian features in those dialects which I mentioned, according to the Serbian Linguist Pavle Ivic, are older than the East South Slavic ones, which infiltrated into those dialects, after the two dialects groups entered a longer period of closer linguistic contact. The old differences, the West/East isogloss probably dates back to the period before the Slavs migrated to the Balkans; those Slavs who lived on the territory of today’s Romania spoke the Eastern dialect, and those who lived in Pannonia spoke the Western Dialect, prior to the Balkan migration.

yes, the u reflex of ѫ (рука, пут, мука) may be old. I am not quite sure whether it would date to before the migrations -
richards_11.jpg


The scheme of "the innovative /u/ reflex" as an areal feature is from the relatively recent dissertation of R. Richards, "Common Slavic's Pannonian Dialect as Viewed through Old Hungarian". Anyway, this is the only exclusively Serbian-type trait in the transitional dialects. Contrary to what was postulated by Belic , the reflexes of *tj and *dj are not quite the ћ and ђ. This was refuted by Selishchev in his study of the Slavic dialects in Macedonia as a whole (Очерки по македонской диалектологии, 1918) and on the Polog/Tetovo and on the language of Kiril Pejchinovich (Полог и его болгарское население. Исторические, этнографические и диалектологические очерки северо-западной Македонии, 1929). A summary of the Bulgarian view on the transitional dialect is in this blog, which also contains more essays on Morava.

It is true that the South Morava valley was depopulated, as well as the Branicevo region, part of the Timok region (Negotinska Krajina, Kljuc, Crna Reka), but some of the original population did remain in the Morava valley, notably in the Svrljig region where the old Morava valley dialect is spoken, as well as the entire South Timok/Torlacki/Shopski (Knjazevac, Pirot, Caribrod) region were the Timok dialect is spoken (the same dialect that is spoken in Belogradchik and Trn). On the Other hand, on the eastern side of the South Morava and along the river itself, the Prizren-East Kosovo dialect is spoken (as well as in Nis, Leskovac and Vranje), it’s this region of the Morava valley that has been mainly repopulated by Serbs from East Kosovo.

Well its logical that Western South Slavic dialects were spoken east of the early Bulgarian border during the 9th century (Serbia never controlled the region of Belogradchik, and yet the Bulgarian population in that region speaks the Western dialect), but these Western South Slavs did not belong to the old Serb tribe, they called themselves Moravians, after the Morava river. Perhaps some early Serbs tribes were resettled by the Bulgarian state, but there were already Western South Slavs living there (it’s very unlikely that those resettled old Serbs expanded all the way to Belogradchik and Trn, otherwise the Slavs in those two regions would regard themselves as Serbs and not as Bulgarians).

I see problems with locating Western South Slavic so much to the east. As discussed already, the older Slavic toponymy preserved in the Vlah areas in Negotinsko, Pozharevachko and in Albanian areas in southern Kossovo show Eastern South Slavic features. And now if we look at the map of the earliest Slavic penetration in the Balkans (in Vl. Georgiev, The genesis of the Balkan Peoples) we see that the Timok valley and the area between Nish, Sofia and Skopje was most densely penetrated:
vg_map2.jpg

So are we to assume that there were both Eastern and Western South Slavic tribes crammed and living side by side in this area?

I think that language was also very important, in terms of ethnic identification (remember the word “iazik” in old Slavic also denoted people or ethnos). When the Slavs settled the Balkans, some of them already had tribal names (Serbs, Croats, Berziti, Severci) while other tribes named themselves after a certain river or a geographical location (Moravci, Strumljani, Rinhini, Neretljani, Zahumljani). Those Slavs also had a collective name which they used, when referring to other Slavic speaking tribes, which was “Sloveni”, with the meaning “people who speak our language”,

this was initially a Byzantine construct. It was the Byzantines, including the work of Cyrillus&Methodius, who created the construct called "Sloveni". The Slavic-speaking tribes had no idea of their common origins, no myths of a common ancestor, etc. The idea of common "Slavdom" became initially popular amongst the Slavs under Byzantine influence, but just a century or two later it was patriotically reversed, was turned upside down in each separate country. Thus, the translators of the Byzantine chronicles in mediaval Bulgaria routinely translated the Greek σκλαβηνοι as "блъгари". The same in Russia where the idea that all Slavic speakers are some king of Russians was entertained till the 19th c. and something similar in Serbia - see below ...

while the Germans are “Nemci” because they are “Nemi”, silent, people whose language is unintelligible. During the 10th century the collective Slavic ethnonym “Sloveni”, was replaced by the Slavs who lived under the Bulgarian State (apart from the Serbs who preserved their identity), by the political name “Blgari”, and the various Slavic tribal names went into disuse- although some survived as ethnographic names, like the ethnographic name “Brsjaci- derived from the Berzit tribal name” in West Macedonia.

... this is exactly what I was talking about. Why do you think that the "Srbi" of the XII-XIII cc. were not a political construct, similar to "Blgari"? It is not about "Serbs preserving their identity" but about the amalgamation of various groups, Slavic or not, to form a state, a people. A single tribe, even as "purely Slavic" (a myth!) as the Serb one, cannot create a state, a fully fledged state with its organisational structures.
 
The old Serbs and Croats were definitely Slavs, or possibly a Slavicised ethnos, but certainly Slavic speaking tribes, upon their arrival in the 7th century; other Slavic tribes in Bohemia and today’s Sorbs also carry this ethnonym, as well as the Slavic White Croats in Poland and Red Croats in Ukraine.

Are there data on the Serb, Croat l-s from the 7th c.? No. There are just some names and they point to the opposite. The names of the Croatian rulers/nobles till ~800 AD are probably not Slavic, according to one new Russian book on White Croatia I was reading recently.

I think there is strong linguistic and anthropological evidence (Bulgar skeletons with Mongoloid features) to backup the theory of the Bulgars Turkic origin. The Indo-Iranian or Indo-European theory about the origin of the Bulgars is purely political in my view, because of “Tursko Robstvo” (no one wants to admit that the Turkish invaders were the cousins of the people who established the Bulgarian state) and that they were an “Asiatic Horde”, as European Historiography refers to those ethnic groups.

the Bulgars were predominantly brachycranic Europoids, with occasional Mongoloid admixtures. This is well established from the necropolises because they buried their dead (on the other side, the Slavs practised cremation and we know considerably less about their physical type). Some European historiography may have referred to them as an "Asiatic horde" but there are no such references in the mediaeval Roman, Byzantine chronicles. In fact, there is no reference to them as "Turks". Your argument about “Tursko Robstvo” I think doesn't hold - nobody postulated a link with the Ottoman Turks (who from a different, Oghuz branch, then the supposed "Turko-Bulgars").
 
Знаш, ових дана сам баш много читала о тој "Албанији" па ми се чини исправнији, да у титулама та територија одговара само старом делу - Рабан, а не данашњим границама Алабаније. Можда си и ти исто мислио, него, за сваки случај да нагласим.
Ја реагујем (не директно на твој пређашњи пост него уопште, на целу ту проблематику) због тога да се не схвати погрешно, да само зато што се у титули помиње област Алванија, то значи да је била попуњена Шћипетарима у 14.веку. Биће оних који ће то да извлаче отуда.

Моје лично мишљење је да се у титули Душановој подразумева под "Србска" територија од западне Босне до реке Искар у дан.Бугарско, а на југу до линије Охрид-Елбасан ("Старе Србије"..)..а под "Арбанаси" територија да се мисли само на Томоришку област (нови Епир) или Рабан.

Управо сам извукла из књиге Стојана Новаковића Балканска питања неколико делића који појашњавају титуле наших владара, па погледајте сви
.
casinoroyalsrpskezemlje.jpg


casinorojaltitula.jpg


Још
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4024/casinoroyalgranicesrbai.jpg

Kada mislim na teritoriju Albanije mislio sam na teritoriju anžujskog kraljevstva Albanije (što ne znači da su u toj Albaniji živjeli samo Albanci, baš kao ni što u tadašnjoj Srbiji ili Vizantiji nisu živjeli isključivo Srbi ili Grci), a ono je otprilike izgledalo ovako u svom zenitu (slika je sa wikipedije, pa se ograđujem ukoliko je djelom netačna):

478px-Kingdom_of_Albania.png

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Albania

Sa ove mape se vidi da je ovaj regnum Albaniae obuhvatao djelom i sjever današnje Albanije, a ne samo jug. Da je to tako svjedoči nam titula Jelene Anžujske na crkvi Svetog Srđa i Vakha na Bojani iz 1288. godine đe se ona titulisala i kao kraljica Albanije (Helene regine Servie, Dyoklie, Albanie, Chilmie, Dalmatie et maritime regionis) – sam Sveti Srđ nije bio u Albaniji već u Diokliji iz iste titule, ali znači da je tada Milutin već držao i dio anžujske sjeverne Albanije ispod Drima – nju je osvojio 1284. godine poslije Sicilijanskog večernja (1282.) kada dolazi do slabljenja Anžujske vlasti u Albaniji; 1296. Milutin je zauzeo tada već vizntijski Drač.
Međutim prva Albanija prije ovog anžujskog regnuma je zapravo kneževina Arbanon na sjeveru današnje Albanije kojom su vladali albanski feudalci Progoni, a od kojih je Nemanja oteo Pilat. Evo približno njene teritorije (s tim što ja sumnjam da se ovaj Arbnum baš spuštao do mora):

478px-Principality_of_Arb%C3%ABr_%2811th-12th_century_AD%29.png
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arb%C3%ABr

Epir je u titulama cara Dušana odvojen od Albanije – on se u pojedinim njegovim tiulama javlja pod pojmom Despotat (“car Srbljem i Grkom i Blgarom i Despotatou i Pomoriju”), a najčešće je uklopljen u Dis (zapadna strana) ili eventualno Pomorje – “Stefan car vsih srpskih i grčkih i zapadnoj stran rekuže Alvaniji i Pomoriju i velikom Disou”. Ovih kombinacija ima još u Dušanovim titulama. Sve ove titule su uzete iz vizantijske carske nomenklature.

Pod pojmom Srbije Dušan nije obuhvatao prostor od zapadne Bosne – prosto jer i nije vladao njim. I ne što Bosnom nije vladao on, već njom nije vladao nijedan Nemanjić. Istina pred rat sa Stjepanom Strjepanom Kotromanićem, Dušan će u svoju titulu dodati Bosnu 1350. godine u povelji o stonskom dohotku koju dodjeljuje manastiru Svetog Arhanđela Mihajila u Jerusalimu (car Stefan Srbljem, Grkom, Bosni, Arbaniji i Zapadne strane). Tu se vidi da Bosnu ne smatra Srbijom. A uostalom kada Tvrtko zavlada dijelom Srbije uz pomoću koje će i doći do kraljevske krune, on će u svojim titulama uvijek razlikovati Srbiju (Srbljem) od Bosne.

Srebrna nisi u pravu ni da je Makedonija u Dušanovim titulama potpadala pod Srbiju, naravno tu nije u pravu ni Novaković koji je bio jedan od najagilnijih zagovornika širenja Srbije na jug, pa je tim tadašnjim planovima morao dati izvjestan istorijski legitimitet. Obrati pažnju:

„U velikoj darovnoj povelji Hilandaru 1348. g. Dušan jasno razlikuje dva dela svoje države: ’Srblje i Romaniju’. Tačan popis metohija u toj povelji daje nam mogućnost da vidimo, koje oblasti spadaju u jedan a koje u drugi deo. Uz srpsku zemlju se ubrajaju: Plav, Zeta, Morava, Pilot, Lipljan, Prizren, Polog. U Romaniju spadaju: Prosek, Štip, Bregalnica, Struma, Strumica, Ser, Redina. Izgleda da i skopska oblast spada u Romaniju ... Ista se podela spominje još i u međunarodnom ugovoru s Dubrovnikom 20. septembra 1349. g. Tu se svuda strogo razlikuje ’zemlja careva i kraljeva’, ’trgovi carevi i kraljevi’, ’vlastelin carev i kraljev’ i svaki podanik carev i kraljev. Vidimo čak iz jedne povelje iz 1353. g. da kralj Uroš kao kralj ’vsem Srbljem’ potvrđuje iste godine darovnicu svog oca manastiru Sv. Arhanđela, verovatno jer se objekt darovnice nalazi u ’Srpskoj zemlji’.“
(Vladimir Ćorović „Istorija Srba“, Podgorica, 2005, str. 236.)

A ko je živio u Skoplju i okolini vidi se u povelji kralja Milutina manastiru Svetog Đorđa Skoropostižnog kod Skoplja iz 1300. godine - tu se spominju ovim redom: Grci, Blgari, Srblji, Latini, Arbanasi i Vlasi.

Prema tome Srbija je u Nemanjićkim titulama prije proglašenje carstva bila oblast otprilike između današnje Bosne i Makedonije, a poslije proglašenja carstva u nju će se ubrajati i kraljevske “pomorske zemlje” – Duklja, Travunija, Zahumlje i Dalmacija (primorski gradovi nekadašnje vizantijske teme Dalmacije).
 
Poslednja izmena:
„U velikoj darovnoj povelji Hilandaru 1348. g. Dušan jasno razlikuje dva dela svoje države: ’Srblje i Romaniju’. Tačan popis metohija u toj povelji daje nam mogućnost da vidimo, koje oblasti spadaju u jedan a koje u drugi deo. Uz srpsku zemlju se ubrajaju: Plav, Zeta, Morava, Pilot, Lipljan, Prizren, Polog. U Romaniju spadaju: Prosek, Štip, Bregalnica, Struma, Strumica, Ser, Redina. Izgleda da i skopska oblast spada u Romaniju ...

yes, Polog (Upper and Lower, i.e. Tetovo & Gostivar) was in the "Serbian land" but Skopje and Vranje - in the "Roman land". This is the map according to Hristo Matanov (1986):

hm_karta2.jpg

Сърбия (сръбска земя) и Романия (гръцка земя) според грамотата на манастира Хилендар от 1348 г.
 
Цитат?

Знам само да је строго забрањивао насељавање Власима и Арбанасима као и да су плаћали дупли порез. Да је тако као што кажеш ( у Законику једна и друга групација су увек заједно) он би се титулисао као цар Влаха и Арбанаса, и што је најважније: ДА ЈЕ ИСТИНА да су они наследници Ромеја, односно да су неки фактор, сигурно би их унео у своју титулу, јер му је циљ био да буде Свети Римски Цар. Овако, остаје чињеница да се према њима односио исто као и Византија, били су оно што јесу, лутајући кавкаски сточари.

Pokušaću da nabavim citat, ako me neko drugi ne prestigne; ali car Dušan nesumnjivo spominje Arbanase u svojoj tituli, mislim da je neko (Tandoori?) već i postavio na forumu.

Arbanasi se spominju, tako da to može samo loše ići u kontekst tvog argumenta.
 
Pokušaću da nabavim citat, ako me neko drugi ne prestigne; ali car Dušan nesumnjivo spominje Arbanase u svojoj tituli, mislim da je neko (Tandoori?) već i postavio na forumu.

Arbanasi se spominju, tako da to može samo loše ići u kontekst tvog argumenta.



Da li ti razumeš prvo sebe, pa onda druge? Rekao si
Ne znam koliko je autentično, ali u Dušanovom zakoniku stoji car Arbanasa odnosno 'Arbanasima'.
Ja kažem, daj mi taj citat iz Zakonika. Nije sporno da se Arbanasi pominju, pobogu, pa već 250 godina žive na tlu Balkana u Dušanovo vreme, ali su neinstitucionalni remetilački faktor te se Dušan tako i odnosi prema njima.
 
Da li ti razumeš prvo sebe, pa onda druge? Rekao si Ja kažem, daj mi taj citat iz Zakonika. Nije sporno da se Arbanasi pominju, pobogu, pa već 250 godina žive na tlu Balkana u Dušanovo vreme, ali su neinstitucionalni remetilački faktor te se Dušan tako i odnosi prema njima.

Da, razumijem; spominje negdje između Grka i Pomorja valjda u tituli; obećavam da ću potražiti i postaviti, nije mi pri ruci (no kako je prepis docniji u pitanju, moguće je da je kasnije ubačeno; u originalnim Dušanovima titulima u poveljama zaista nema Arbanasa).
 

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