Thucydides
Gost
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Naucnici kazu da se Grci u dekadenciji nisu mijesali sa stranim stanovnistvom, dok Rimljani vec jesu, i sa crncima.
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Just go to minute / start at 5:00. Prof. Glykatzi states that Thessaly was called Megali Vlachia. Why Megali Vlachia? Well, because of Vlachs - who are a separate ethnicity (φυλή), etc.
Once again, this is being openly discussed on Greek TV.
Poslednja izmena od moderatora:
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
- Poruka
- 5.024
Right, but are you aware that Vlachs are actually Serbs? Ask Mrkalj.
In the 21st volume (published in Bonn in 1840 under the supervision of Immanuel Bekker), texts of Ephraim (late 13th - first half of the 14th century) are found. In verse 7674, Ephraim describes the inhabitants of Illyria as Albanians. More importantly, in verses 7671-7674 we find the following:
In Latin:
……THESSALIAM OCCUPAVIT CUM ACHAIA,
ET MACEDONIAM CUM THRACIAE PARTICULA,
DALMATIAM ACQUISIVIT CUM EPIDAURO,
ILLYRI TRACTOS MONTICOLAS ALBANOS
Verses 7671-7674 in Greek are:
……χρατεΐ Θεσσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιδάμνω
Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς
https://athens.indymedia.org/post/271457/
Крушево - EXCURSION IN KROUSOVO. [THE NEWS OF PELLA MACEDONIA.
Minute 5:17 - 7:40
Minute 5:17 - 7:40
Poslednja izmena:
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
- Poruka
- 5.024
Ie, limba armãneascã. (Да, цинцарски језик).
Unrelated comment (I recently read it), but it is interesting that in the Sardinian language the word for 'language' is limba, while the word for 'water' is 'abba'.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Re...VAhUo94MKHejiCYAQ6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_language
Labio-velars become plain labials (limba versus lingua, "language" and abba versus acua, "water").
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
- Poruka
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Yes, these are natural variations caused by phonetic laws. It doesn't mean that the Vlachs are particularly related to the Sardinians.
I agree with you.
Anyway, I will add below (it deals about the history/language of the ancient Greek people) comments/refutation by John Chadwick of V. Georgiev's thesis and arguments regarding the lingustic evidence as far as the arrival of the Greeks in Greece is concerned.
As I'm not a linguist I am simply sharing Chadwick's interesting rebuttal with my own comment that the linguists/experts themselves disagree on many major, but also minor points. What follows below is one simple example. It is a book I found and purchased in a used bookstore and it is titled "Bronze Age Migrations in the Aegean, Archaeological and lingustic problems in Greek prehistory - Proceedings of the First International Colloquium on Aegean Prehistory....." published in 1974 (in U.S.A.) by Noyes Press.
On page 243 the entirety of V. I. Georgiev's paper can be found which is titled "The arrival of the Greeks in Greece: the lingustic evidence". On page 254 starts the Discussion part where the responses/thoughts are given, first of John Chadwick and second of Ivan Pudic (of Univ. of Belgrade). [Unrelated but interesting that on page 259 there is a short paper by Ivan Pudic himself, titled "Indo-European mythology in the Bronze Age" which is less than 3 pages in total. His short article starts as follows The greatest god of Greeks, Illyrians, Macedonians, Romans, Germans and Indians was the same, a god of the light: Zeus, Deipatyros, Ziu, Diespater, Tyr, Dyaus.... I may share the article at some point later on.]
I went off on a tangent...... Going back to John Chadwick, here is a very short reply/criticism of Georgiev's approach and conclusions, only a few sentences:
Professor Georgiev believes in the existence of one or more Indo-European idioms which are not preserved in any texts, but may (in his opinion) be reconstructed from the place-names and loan-words that they contributed to Greek. How risky such a procedure is may be tested by applying it to situations where the underlying language is known: we might for instance try to reconstruct the basic phonology of Hindu from Anglo-Indian loan-words. I once amused myself and others by proving that the pre-Columbian language of North America was an Indo-European idiom, on the basis of etymologies of American load-words in English. This method has been justly and devastatingly criticized by D. A. Hester. I am not willing to accept a single one of Professor Georgiev's Indo-European etymologies of place-names, because in no case can we independently determine the meaning of the name.
Anyway, I will add below (it deals about the history/language of the ancient Greek people) comments/refutation by John Chadwick of V. Georgiev's thesis and arguments regarding the lingustic evidence as far as the arrival of the Greeks in Greece is concerned.
As I'm not a linguist I am simply sharing Chadwick's interesting rebuttal with my own comment that the linguists/experts themselves disagree on many major, but also minor points. What follows below is one simple example. It is a book I found and purchased in a used bookstore and it is titled "Bronze Age Migrations in the Aegean, Archaeological and lingustic problems in Greek prehistory - Proceedings of the First International Colloquium on Aegean Prehistory....." published in 1974 (in U.S.A.) by Noyes Press.
On page 243 the entirety of V. I. Georgiev's paper can be found which is titled "The arrival of the Greeks in Greece: the lingustic evidence". On page 254 starts the Discussion part where the responses/thoughts are given, first of John Chadwick and second of Ivan Pudic (of Univ. of Belgrade). [Unrelated but interesting that on page 259 there is a short paper by Ivan Pudic himself, titled "Indo-European mythology in the Bronze Age" which is less than 3 pages in total. His short article starts as follows The greatest god of Greeks, Illyrians, Macedonians, Romans, Germans and Indians was the same, a god of the light: Zeus, Deipatyros, Ziu, Diespater, Tyr, Dyaus.... I may share the article at some point later on.]
I went off on a tangent...... Going back to John Chadwick, here is a very short reply/criticism of Georgiev's approach and conclusions, only a few sentences:
Professor Georgiev believes in the existence of one or more Indo-European idioms which are not preserved in any texts, but may (in his opinion) be reconstructed from the place-names and loan-words that they contributed to Greek. How risky such a procedure is may be tested by applying it to situations where the underlying language is known: we might for instance try to reconstruct the basic phonology of Hindu from Anglo-Indian loan-words. I once amused myself and others by proving that the pre-Columbian language of North America was an Indo-European idiom, on the basis of etymologies of American load-words in English. This method has been justly and devastatingly criticized by D. A. Hester. I am not willing to accept a single one of Professor Georgiev's Indo-European etymologies of place-names, because in no case can we independently determine the meaning of the name.
Poslednja izmena:
Τελικά τον πιο καθοριστικό ρόλο στη δημιουργία μια νέα εθνικής ταυτότητας, θα τον παίξει η γλώσσα. Η εκπαίδευση θα γίνει η μεγάλη δύναμη του ελληνικού κράτους, ο πραγματικός κατακτητής. «Έλληνας είναι όποιος μετέχει της Ελληνικής Παιδείας».
Ultimately, the most decisive role in creating a new national identity will be the language. Education will become the great power of the Greek state, the real conqueror. "Greek is anyone who participates in Greek Education".
Ultimately, the most decisive role in creating a new national identity will be the language. Education will become the great power of the Greek state, the real conqueror. "Greek is anyone who participates in Greek Education".
Sanovnik
Buduća legenda
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- 37.562
Волео би да пронађем по нето занимљиво на овој теми... али овој је тема на енглеском и на грчком, на желост.
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
This myth required excavators on the Acropolis during the 19th century to erase Ottoman traces and purify the site as the crucible of classicism. The Erechtheion had been a harem, the Parthenon a mosque. “But Greek archaeology has always been a kind of fantasy,” Antonis Liakos, a leading Greek historian, noted the other day. The repatriation argument, relying on claims of historical integrity, itself distorts history.
URL:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
This myth required excavators on the Acropolis during the 19th century to erase Ottoman traces and purify the site as the crucible of classicism. The Erechtheion had been a harem, the Parthenon a mosque. “But Greek archaeology has always been a kind of fantasy,” Antonis Liakos, a leading Greek historian, noted the other day. The repatriation argument, relying on claims of historical integrity, itself distorts history.
URL:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=4&pagewanted=all
1916 Parnassos magazine article upset that soldiers in Greek army speak to one another in Albanian - a ovo je jos 1916. god. 
Waren die peloponnesischen Melinger Vlachen?, Johann Benos
URL:
http://www.rutzen-verlag.de/publikationen/thetis2.html
Here is a summary from the article:
- The landscape of the Messenian part of Taygetos was called until recently EMVLACHINA.
- Chalkokondylis called the Taygetos residents 'Valaken', i.e. Vlachs, who spoke a similar language as the "Dacians".
- Melingi, the indomitable tribe of Taygetos and Parnon mountains could initially not be defeated by the crusaders.
- A much more substantive evidence of the Vlach origins of Melingi deliver the toponyms. Just where the Melingi settled, there also are the most Vlach place names: names of villages, hamlets and of localities - which can be delivered neither from the Slavic, nor Turkish, nor Albanian, nor Greek. The Vlach-Melingi place names can be found on the west side of Taygetos, Outer Mani in Western Messenia and in South Lakonia (West of Gythion).
- Typical examples are two villages today Orini Melingu and Chimerini Melingu, formerly called, Melingu and Melingitika Kaliwia, which are near the small town of Astros, Arcadia - very close to Tzakonia.
- Nikon Metanoite, year 965 AD, called the residents of Taygetos Myrmidons.
- G. Phrantzes also referred to the Melingi, as Myrmidons: "I traveled the country of Myrmidons in Epidauros (meaning Epidauros Limera at Monemvasia), Maleas (the peninsula) and Tanarion (Taygetos and Mani peninsula)".
- Evliya Celebi, year 1668/1669, states as follows: "...and in Mani (as he emphasizes), an unfamiliar language is spoken, neither Greek or Albanian in origin."
- As further evidence for the Vlach lineage of Melingi are the numerous Vlach surnames of Maniates - especially from Outer Mani, the ancient home of Melingi: Burikos (Buriku), Ventikos (Ventiku), Dimarogas, Pambukis, Tukaliaunas, Chamodrakas.
- Benos also cites the Greek investigator Katsanis (who wrote the book titled "Koutsovlachika kai Tsakonika" -- "Vlach and Tsakonian"). His finding is startling, as Katsanis states the following:
"Similarities in LEXICAL level between Tsakonian and Vlach were a remarkable fact, but not inexplicable and incomprehensible. In present case, however, we observe similarities and equalities that over the lexical level go out and capture both the PHONETIC and the MORPHOLOGIC".
Original screenshots of a few pages of the article. Enjoy.
URL:
http://www.rutzen-verlag.de/publikationen/thetis2.html
Here is a summary from the article:
- The landscape of the Messenian part of Taygetos was called until recently EMVLACHINA.
- Chalkokondylis called the Taygetos residents 'Valaken', i.e. Vlachs, who spoke a similar language as the "Dacians".
- Melingi, the indomitable tribe of Taygetos and Parnon mountains could initially not be defeated by the crusaders.
- A much more substantive evidence of the Vlach origins of Melingi deliver the toponyms. Just where the Melingi settled, there also are the most Vlach place names: names of villages, hamlets and of localities - which can be delivered neither from the Slavic, nor Turkish, nor Albanian, nor Greek. The Vlach-Melingi place names can be found on the west side of Taygetos, Outer Mani in Western Messenia and in South Lakonia (West of Gythion).
- Typical examples are two villages today Orini Melingu and Chimerini Melingu, formerly called, Melingu and Melingitika Kaliwia, which are near the small town of Astros, Arcadia - very close to Tzakonia.
- Nikon Metanoite, year 965 AD, called the residents of Taygetos Myrmidons.
- G. Phrantzes also referred to the Melingi, as Myrmidons: "I traveled the country of Myrmidons in Epidauros (meaning Epidauros Limera at Monemvasia), Maleas (the peninsula) and Tanarion (Taygetos and Mani peninsula)".
- Evliya Celebi, year 1668/1669, states as follows: "...and in Mani (as he emphasizes), an unfamiliar language is spoken, neither Greek or Albanian in origin."
- As further evidence for the Vlach lineage of Melingi are the numerous Vlach surnames of Maniates - especially from Outer Mani, the ancient home of Melingi: Burikos (Buriku), Ventikos (Ventiku), Dimarogas, Pambukis, Tukaliaunas, Chamodrakas.
- Benos also cites the Greek investigator Katsanis (who wrote the book titled "Koutsovlachika kai Tsakonika" -- "Vlach and Tsakonian"). His finding is startling, as Katsanis states the following:
"Similarities in LEXICAL level between Tsakonian and Vlach were a remarkable fact, but not inexplicable and incomprehensible. In present case, however, we observe similarities and equalities that over the lexical level go out and capture both the PHONETIC and the MORPHOLOGIC".
Original screenshots of a few pages of the article. Enjoy.
Konstantin Veliki
Buduća legenda
- Poruka
- 28.842
Naucnici iz grckog stormfronta izgleda.
- " Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese.."
- " Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs.."
- "... the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians..."
- "... the Guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek Revolution Vlachs and Albanians, etc, etc..."
- "... numerous Vlach villages in Arcadia.. in Achaia."
- " Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs.."
- "... the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians..."
- "... the Guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek Revolution Vlachs and Albanians, etc, etc..."
- "... numerous Vlach villages in Arcadia.. in Achaia."
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
- Poruka
- 5.024
None of this is surprising if you believe in the Romanization of the autochthonous population during the 8th centuries of Roman Empire here, and the survival of Romance languages well into the recent past.
Until 1885, the population of Attica and Boeotia (with the sole exception of the inhabitants of Thebes, Athens, Megara and Karystos) spoke only Albanian. Most of the population of Thebes and Athens that was not of Albanian origin was of Catalan, Italian, or French origin, and there is proof aplenty to be found in the relevant literature.
While it is not possible accurately to determine the population of Catalan Athens, a reasonable estimate would range from nine to eleven thousand persons, of whom perhaps fewer than three thousand were Catalan. Rubio has estimated that the total number of Catalans, spread over the whole of Attica and Beoetia, did not exceed five or six thousand persons, still a rather significant number at that time.
In short, there is no doubt whatsoever - historically and factually speaking - that the modern ethnic Greeks of Attica and Boeotia regions are mainly of ethnic Albanian stock, with significant admixture of Arvanitovlachs, some Catalans, but also Italians and French.
Sources: Vasileios Laourdas and George Nakratzas.
While it is not possible accurately to determine the population of Catalan Athens, a reasonable estimate would range from nine to eleven thousand persons, of whom perhaps fewer than three thousand were Catalan. Rubio has estimated that the total number of Catalans, spread over the whole of Attica and Beoetia, did not exceed five or six thousand persons, still a rather significant number at that time.
In short, there is no doubt whatsoever - historically and factually speaking - that the modern ethnic Greeks of Attica and Boeotia regions are mainly of ethnic Albanian stock, with significant admixture of Arvanitovlachs, some Catalans, but also Italians and French.
Sources: Vasileios Laourdas and George Nakratzas.
Indigenous population of Greece --> 'Vlachs'
haeul
Poznat
- Poruka
- 9.528
Шћиптара једва да је било и у Шћипнији, а камоли на Атици и у Виптији. Не бламирај се Карлин.
"Током осмог векова"? Не бламирај се Влахче.
Poslednja izmena:
1) Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer:
a) "Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day."
b) "Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes."
c) "The warriors of Pyrrhus, Teuta and Gentius spoke the tongue that is now used by Miaoulis and Contouriotis and the inhabitants of Boeotia, Hydra, Attica and a good part of the Morea [Peloponnese] today. It is closer to the dialect of the people we now call the Vlachs, that are simply the remainder of an ancient people who, before the destructive expansion of Greece and Rome and the devastating migrations and invasions of the Scythes and Celts, inhabited the territory of Thessaly and the interior mountains of the Illyrian triangle."
URL:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_Fallmerayer/index.html
2) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians; Thessaly in those of Vlachs and Anatolians, introduced from Konia about the tenth century; and Macedonia, north of Vistritza, in those of a blend of Slav with Bulgar mixed further with Vlach and Anatolian elements."
3) "Days in Attica", Ellen Sophia Bosanquet (published in 1914): According to this source, the Vlachs lived in a mountain range in the Athens area (Hymettus).
4) Laonikos Chalkokondyles - VOL. 1 Book 6 - Page 65 speaking about Albanians, starting from north, down to Achaia: "The territory that extends down to Achaia is inhabited by Arabaioi, who are Albanian men..."
5) Epirus, Thessaly and Attico-Boeotia confirm the (ethnic) discontinuity between ancient and modern Greece.
Taken from:
Ο ΦΑΛΜΕΡΑΫΕΡ ΚΑΙ ΝΕΟΤΕΡΑ ΣΤΟΙΧΕΙΑ ΓΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΕΘΝΙΚΗ ΚΑΤΑΓΩΓΗ ΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ (ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ, ΘΕΣΣΑΛΙΑ ΚΑΙ Η ΑΤΤΙΚΟΒΟΙΩΤΙΑ), by Φίλιππας Κυρίτσης
URL:
http://www.academia.edu/8066812/Ο_Φ...ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ_ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ_ΘΕΣΣΑΛΙΑ_ΚΑΙ_Η_ΑΤΤΙΚΟΒΟΙΩΤΙΑ_
6) "Until 1885, the population of Attica and Boeotia (with the sole exception of the inhabitants of Thebes, Athens, Megara and Karystos) spoke only Albanian. Most of the population of Thebes and Athens that was not of Albanian origin was of Catalan, Italian, or French origin, and there is proof aplenty to be found in the relevant literature."
PAGE 271 here: https://makedonika.files.wordpress....-greeks-bulgarians-and-turks-by-nakratzas.pdf
a) "Unfortunately for the friends of ancient Greek cause, gentle folk they may be, though not particularly astute, the inhabitants of the Academy of Plato and of all of Attica, of Boeotia, Megara, Corinth, Argolis, Hydra, Spetzia, Phlius and the interior of the Morea, have preserved the customs, language and clothing of their native land to the present day."
b) "Several years later, the adventuresome Castellan of Corinth gained control over most of the lands of the Parea that were plunged into war and subject to Sicilian influence, and spread Albanian colonies to Attica and Boeotia where this people still resides pure and unmixed with others. With the exception of some villages in Boeotia and the cities of Thebes and Athens where the population during the last uprising was a mixture of people from all regions, Albanian blood is dominant and is most prevalent in the lower classes."
c) "The warriors of Pyrrhus, Teuta and Gentius spoke the tongue that is now used by Miaoulis and Contouriotis and the inhabitants of Boeotia, Hydra, Attica and a good part of the Morea [Peloponnese] today. It is closer to the dialect of the people we now call the Vlachs, that are simply the remainder of an ancient people who, before the destructive expansion of Greece and Rome and the devastating migrations and invasions of the Scythes and Celts, inhabited the territory of Thessaly and the interior mountains of the Illyrian triangle."
URL:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_Fallmerayer/index.html
2) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians; Thessaly in those of Vlachs and Anatolians, introduced from Konia about the tenth century; and Macedonia, north of Vistritza, in those of a blend of Slav with Bulgar mixed further with Vlach and Anatolian elements."
3) "Days in Attica", Ellen Sophia Bosanquet (published in 1914): According to this source, the Vlachs lived in a mountain range in the Athens area (Hymettus).
4) Laonikos Chalkokondyles - VOL. 1 Book 6 - Page 65 speaking about Albanians, starting from north, down to Achaia: "The territory that extends down to Achaia is inhabited by Arabaioi, who are Albanian men..."
5) Epirus, Thessaly and Attico-Boeotia confirm the (ethnic) discontinuity between ancient and modern Greece.
Taken from:
Ο ΦΑΛΜΕΡΑΫΕΡ ΚΑΙ ΝΕΟΤΕΡΑ ΣΤΟΙΧΕΙΑ ΓΙΑ ΤΗΝ ΕΘΝΙΚΗ ΚΑΤΑΓΩΓΗ ΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ (ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ, ΘΕΣΣΑΛΙΑ ΚΑΙ Η ΑΤΤΙΚΟΒΟΙΩΤΙΑ), by Φίλιππας Κυρίτσης
URL:
http://www.academia.edu/8066812/Ο_Φ...ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ_ΗΠΕΙΡΟΣ_ΘΕΣΣΑΛΙΑ_ΚΑΙ_Η_ΑΤΤΙΚΟΒΟΙΩΤΙΑ_
6) "Until 1885, the population of Attica and Boeotia (with the sole exception of the inhabitants of Thebes, Athens, Megara and Karystos) spoke only Albanian. Most of the population of Thebes and Athens that was not of Albanian origin was of Catalan, Italian, or French origin, and there is proof aplenty to be found in the relevant literature."
PAGE 271 here: https://makedonika.files.wordpress....-greeks-bulgarians-and-turks-by-nakratzas.pdf
Poslednja izmena:
haeul
Poznat
- Poruka
- 9.528
Опскурни извори од мало значаја.
Лепо спавај
Лепо спавај
ΚΑΛΗΝΥΧΤΑ 1) Edmond About, "Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day"
"Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations..........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra.
2) "When King Otto of Greece came in Greece in 1830, he hardly heard anyone speak in Greek and so he asked: "Where are the Greeks in Athens?" His court looked at each other and answered: "There are no Greeks, but do not be troubled because this Albanian population will always be faithful to your monarchy".
Zaharias Papantoniou, "King Otto"
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
- Poruka
- 5.024
Само неки велики мислилац, као што си ти, се вата за типфелере.
haeul
Poznat
- Poruka
- 9.528
Да ти ниси осетио потребу да се опет глупираш, не бих се хватао. Имак поштовања према члановима форума који не разумеју енглески.
Узгред, такав типфелер је немогућ. У питању је грешка која је последица незнања.
