Генетичка генеалогија

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stanje
Zatvorena za pisanje odgovora.
Još uvek smo na nivou da možemo da nekako grupišemo savremene populacije po poreklu, po muškoj liniji.
Put u prošlost je neizvestan i u sveri nagađanja.
Da bi mogli, na osnovu genetike, da pratimo neka pomeranja populacija u prošlodti, neophodni su rezultati drevne DNK.

Mi bi, za početak, mogli da uporedimo populaciju u Srbiji pre dolaska Turaka sa savremenom.

Kako je, iz kostiju, lakše izdvojiti mtDNA, tebalo bi malo više pažnje posvetiti ženskoj liniji.
Tu i o savremenoj srpskoj populaciji ne znamo ništa. Naročito koje su podgrupe grupe H zastupljene kod Srba. Takođe su zanimljive hg U5a, U4 i J.
...
"mtDNA from Grave Circle B in Mycenae
A new preprint on mitochondrial DNA from Grave Circle B in Mycenae. Unfortunately, the authors report that they could not get any autosomal or Y chromosome DNA, however they did manage to obtain four mtDNA sequences (out of 22 individuals) which appear to be authentic, and which belonged to haplogroups UK ("heart-shaped face" individuals Γ55 and Γ58, possibly brother and sister), U5a1 or U5a1a ("long-faced" individual Ζ59) and the Cambridge Reference Sequence ("heart-shaped face" individual Α62), which is "compatible in the region sequenced"
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/mtdna-from-grave-circle-b-in-mycenae_07.html
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?96540-Bronze-age-DNA
 
Poslednja izmena:
do sada je testirano manje od milion ljudi na ovom svetu što je manje ood jedng prmila svetske populacije. To znači da na jedng testirang imamo više od hiljadu koji se nisu testirali. Pogotovo Azija Afrika itd. Takođe će se vaditi i sve više ancient dna pa ćemo znati sve više i više o populaciji u prošlosti. Otkrivaće se nezamislive stvari. Polako ćemo rekonstruisati ljudsku prošlost unazad

Sto se manje ljudi radja, vise ih iskopavaju iz zemlje.
 
Anna Szécsényi-Nagy, Guido Brandt, Victoria Keerl, et al., Tracing the genetic origin of Europe's first farmers reveals insights into their social organization,
bioRxiv first posted online September 3, 2014
Access the most recent version at doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/008664


"We report an exceptional large Neolithic DNA dataset from the Carpathian Basin, which was the cradle of the first Central European farming culture, the so called Linearbandkeramik culture. We generated 9 Y chromosomal and 84 mitochondrial DNA profiles from Mesolithic and Neolithic specimens from western Hungary and Croatia, attributed to the hunter-gatherers, Starčevo and LBK cultures (7th/6th millennium BC). We observe genetic discontinuity between Mesolithic foragers and early farmers, and genetic continuity between farming populations of the 6th-4th millennium BC across a vast territory of southeastern and Central Europe. Nine novel Y chromosome DNA profiles offer first insights into the Y chromosome diversity of the earliest European farmers, and further support the migration (demic diffusion) from the Near East into Central Europe along the Continental route of Neolithisation. The joint analyses of the two uniparental genetic systems let us conclude that men and women had a similar roles in the Early Neolithic migration process but their dispersal patterns were determined by sex-specific rules.
...
Mitochondrial DNA
The haplotype of the Mesolithic skeleton from the Croatian Island Korčula belongs to the mtDNA haplogroup U5b2a5 (Dataset S3). The sub-haplogroup U5b has been shown to be frequent in pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer communities across Europe [28–30,32,33,45,46]. Contrary to the low mtDNA diversity reported from hunter-gatherers of Central/North Europe [28–30], we identify substantially higher variability in early farming communities of the Carpathian Basin including the haplogroups N1a, T1, T2, J, K, H, HV, V, W, X, U2, U3, U4, and U5a (Table 1). Previous studies have shown that haplogroups N1a, T2, J, K, HV, V, W and X are most characteristic for the Central European LBK and have described these haplogroups as the mitochondrial ʻNeolithic packageʼ that had reached Central Europe in the 6th millennium BC [36,37]. Interestingly, most of these haplogroups show comparable frequencies between the STA, LBKT and LBK, comprising the majority of mtDNA variation in each culture (STA=86.36%, LBKT=61.54%, LBK=79.63%). In contrast, hunter-gatherer haplogroups are rare in the STA and both LBK groups (Table 1). Besides similar haplogroup compositions we also found comparable haplotype diversity values for each culture (STA=0.97674, LBKT=0.95277, LBK=0.95483).
...
Y chromosomal DNA
We also analysed the non-recombining part of the Y chromosome (NRY) in the investigated samples, using multiplex [36] and singleplex approaches, targeting 33 haplogroup defining SNPs. We successfully generated unambiguous NRY SNPs profiles for nine male individuals (STA=7, LBKT=2) (Dataset S3, S5). Three STA individuals belong to the NRY haplogroup F* (M89) and two specimens can be assigned to the G2a2b (S126) haplogroup, and one each to G2a (P15) and I2a1 (P37.2) (Dataset S3, S5). The two investigated LBKT samples carry haplogroups G2a2b (S126) and I1 (M253). Furthermore, the incomplete SNP profiles of eight specimens potentially belong to the same haplogroups; STA: three G2a2b (S126), two G2a (P15), and one I (M170); LBKT: one G2a2b (S126) and one F* (M89) (Dataset S5)."
 
Dragoceno.

Evo šta su skraćenice.
aDNA Ancient DNA
AMOVA Analysis of molecular variance
ASHA Ancestral shared haplotype analysis
HVS I/II Hyper Variable Segment I or II of the mitochondrial genome
LBK Linearbandkeramik or Linear Pottery culture in Central Europe (refer to published LBK data from the Czech Republic, Lower Austria, and Germany)
LBKT Linearbandkeramik or Linear Pottery culture in western Hungary/Transdanubia
MDS Multidimensional scaling
mtDNA Mitochondrial DNA
np Nucleotide position
NRY Non-recombining part of the Y chromosome
PCA Principal component analysis
SNP Single nucleotide polymorphism
STA Starčevo culture
TPC Test of population continuity

"Surprisingly, Y chromosome haplogroups, such as E1b1b1 (M35), E1b1b1a1 (M78), E1b1b1b2a (M123), J2 (M172), J1 (M267), and R1b1a2 (M269), which were claimed to be associated with the Neolithic expansion [23–25], have not been found so far in the 6th millennium BC of the Carpathian Basin and Central Europe. Intriguingly, R1a and R1b, which represent the most frequent European Y chromosome haplogroups today, have been reported from cultures that emerged in Central Europe during the 3rd/2nd millennium BC, while a basal R type has been reported from a Palaeolithic sample in Siberia [60] in agreement with a proposed Central Asian/Siberian origin of this lineage"

R1a, R1b, EV13, J... došljaci su muškarci, koji praktično ništa nisu promenili u mtDNA na ovom prostoru. Uz napomenu da je H mtDNA zona u današnjoj Mađarskoj.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Sa tim u vezi
europa1sm.gif

"The Evolution of the Indo-European Languages

Dr. C. George Boeree

linguistics indo-european


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An Evolutionary Time-line of the Indo-European Languages

c. 5000 bc.
Homeland: The Danube River valley (Wallachia and Hungary). Farming learned from the people of Asia Minor. Cultivation of native rye and oats and domestication of native pigs, geese, and cattle begins. Strong tribal sociey develops.

There are many reasons for choosing the Danube River valley: Farming is possible, although the land is less than desirable to more powerful tribes from the south; the flora and fauna of the valley, as well as for other natural features such as hills and rivers, are represented by the oldest words we can reconstruct; the natural ranges of wild horses (what would become the Indo-European's ace card) are nearby in the Ukraine; the area is central to the eventual expanse of the Indo-Europeans, with due allowance for the more rapid expanse commonplace over steppe-lands; the area is also in close proximity to some of the most conservative recent representatives of the family.

The most compelling reason is the presence of the Danubian culture, with its linear incised pottery, at this same time. The culture spreads soon after in exactly the directions that would account for the spread of PIE.

There are, of course, many other possibilities. The most common suggestion is the steppes north of the Black Sea, for many similar reasons. I believe that the strong tribal social structure suggests that the Indo-Europeans were farmers before they were pastoralists. It is highly unlikely that they went straight from steppe hunter-gatherers to sophisticated pastoralists in one step.

c. 4000 bc.
Proto-Anatolians move southeast to Thrace. They would be profoundly influenced by the advanced cultures of Asia Minor and beyond.

Proto-Tokharians move east into the Ukraine. These people are the most likely originators of the horse culture. There is also plenty of evidence of ox-drawn wagons with disk wheels in the western steppes.

A western dialect begins to emerge (the Proto-Celtic-Italic-Illyrians) on the upper Danube. The enclosed steppe of the Hungarian Plain puts them in an ideal position to blend farming with a horse culture.

indo-european languages

c. 3000 bc.
Copper working, learned from the people of Asia Minor, begins in Thrace and the Danube valley and reaches Germany by 3000 bc.

Domestication of the horse spreads from the Ukraine. Within a thousand years, horsemanship spreads from the Ukraine throughout the Indo-European area, even into Scandinavia. It is the steppe inhabitants who change most dramatically into true pastoral societies. In the more wooded areas of Europe, horse ownership begins to differentiate a warrior nobility from commoners. Of course, use of the horse spreads to the non-IE societies of the Middle East as well.

The disk-wheel wagon has spread from Russia across Europe to Holland.

The Proto-Anatolians move from Thrace into Greece and Asia Minor. It is likely that they constitute the pre-Greek Pelasgian and Cretan populations (Early Aegean culture).

The Proto-Tokharians continue east to the steppes, towards the Tarim Basin in northwestern China. They may be the people known to the Chinese as the Yüeh-chi, and may have been the core of the Kushan Empire of the first century AD.

The Proto-Celts separate from the rest of the western dialect and expand west into southern Germany, where they develop the Michelsburg culture. The remaining western dialect tribes edge into the modern Slovenia-Croatia area.

The main body of Indo-Europeans expands into Thrace, the Ukraine, Bohemia, and Poland, and begins to differentiate into a northern dialect (Bohemia, Poland, and Hungary, represented by the Funnel Beaker culture) and a southern dialect (Wallachia, Thrace, and Ukraine, continuing the Danubian culture).c. 2500 bc.

Bronze working develops throughout Indo-European area.

The Proto-Italics, who speak a western dialect, move west from the Slovenia area into Italy.

The Proto-Illyrians, speaking another western dialect (perhaps), move south from the northern Croatia area into Illyria (the Dalmatian coast).

One branch of the southern dialect -- Proto-Hellenic -- moves south into Macedonia, Greece, and the Aegean islands. By 1500 bc, the southern-most tribes would establish the Mycenaean culture.

A branch of the northern dialect -- Proto-Germanics -- moves northeast from Poland or Bohemia into northern Germany and Scandinavia.

The remaining main body of Indo-Europeans (the Baltic, Poland, Bohemia, the Hungarian Plain, Wallachia, Thrace, the Ukraine and the neighboring steppes) -- both northern and southern dialects -- undergoes the Satem phonetic changes.

c. 2000 bc.
The horse-drawn, two-wheeled chariot, with spoked wheels, is developed in the western steppes, and spreads quickly to the Balkans as well as the Middle East.

A branch of the southern Satem dialect -- Proto-Indo-Iranian -- expands from Ukraine and the steppes into Afghanistan, Iran, and northwestern India. One tribe -- the Mittani -- goes as far west as northern Mesopotamia.

The main body of the southern Satem dialect expands into the Ukraine to become the Cimmerians, leaving the Dacians in the original homeland. I suspect that the Dacians were a southern (Cimmerian-like) dialect. The people of Thrace were probably closely related to the Cimmerians, with a southern Satem dialect. These people develop the steppe version of the Battle Ax culture.

The main body of the northern Satem dialect -- Proto-Balto-Slavic -- expands north from Poland into Belarus and the Baltic coast. With the Germans, they consititute the northern version of the Battle Ax culture.

The Celts expand into France and, in a retrograde move, back into Hungary. A powerful society, they pressure the original peoples of western Europe, as well as their own relations to the east. They develop the Bell-beaker culture and, later, the Urnfield culture.

Anatolians (most notably the Hittites) establish themselves in Asia Minor, where they become a major power. Their languages are profoundly affected by neighboring non-IE languages.

A second wave of Hellenics (Doric Greeks) moves into Greece from Macedonia.

c. 1500 bc.
Proto-Phrygians -- possibly a branch of the Cimmerians -- move from Thrace across the Bosporus to northwestern Asia Minor. The Phrygians would move into the power gap left by the collapse of the Hittite Empire around 1200 bc.

Proto-Armenians -- possibly another branch of the Cimmerians -- move into Asia Minor, probably by means of the Bosporus. It is possible that they entered from the east coast of the Black Sea, or even across the Black Sea. In the next 1000 years, they spread over much of northern Asia Minor, but are eventually pressured into the Lake Van region.

Albanian may be the sole survivor of the Illyrian languages, its many variant features due to long contact with a variety of neighbors. Or it could be the lone descendent of a Dacian dialect that later moved into the Albanian region. I lean toward the latter, but it is very difficult to tell! So little of Dacian, Thracian, Illyrian, etc. is left to us.

The Ligurian (western) Celts expand into western Iberia and the British Isles, where they absorb most of the prior inhabitants. The original inhabitants of Spain survive well into the Roman era, while the original inhabitants of southwest France survive to the present as the Basques.

The Balto-Slavics differentiate into Baltic and Slavic. Both begin to expand east- and northward, at the expense of the hunter-gatherer Finno-Ugric people.

The Indo-Iranians differentiate into Indic and Iranian. The Indic group rapidly expands across northern India as far as Magatha. The Iranians split into powerful tribes, notably the Persians and the Medes, by the 800's bc. The Iranians remaining in the steppes would come to be known as the Scyths and Sakas. The Scyths expand westward at the expense of the remaining Cimmerians.

c. 1000 bc.
Iron working begins in the Balkans by 1000 bc. It reaches Britain by 800 bc.

The "Age of Empires" begins in earnest."
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/indoeuropean.html
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ili
"IGOR M. D’IAKONOV
One of the many rival theories of Indo-European Origins proposes that the homeland of the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language is to be found in the Balkan peninsula (Southeast Europe). This theory was most comprehensively proposed by the eminent Russian linguist and historian Igor M. D’iakonov in his seminal paper [(1985). “On the Original Home of the Speakers of Indo-European.” Journal of Indo-European Studies. Volume 13, p. 92]

D’iakonov argues quite convincingly against the two main rival theories, that of feminist Lithuanian-born author Marija Gimbutas [(1973). “The Beginning of the Bronze Age in Europe and the Indo-Europeans: 3500-2500 B.C.” Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 1, p. 163], who believed that the Indo-Europeans originated in the Russian steppes, and of Georgian linguists Gamkrelidze, T. V. and V. V. Ivanov who proposed an origin in the vicinity of the Armenian plateau [(1985). “The Migrations of Tribes Speaking Indo-European Dialects from their Original Homeland in the Near East to their Historical Habitations in Eurasia.” Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 13, p. 49]

D’iakonov makes an extensive survey of the linguistic and archaeological evidence and determines that the Proto-Indo-Europeans had a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry. He criticizes Gimbutas' theory which rests on little archaeological evidence and the completely arbitrary assumption that prehistoric populations used the horse as a military weapon. He is also critical of the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov work, both on linguistic reasons and because they postulate improbable migration routes to account for the historically attested IE languages.

D’iakonov demonstrates that the Balkan-Carpathian region has all the features known for Proto-Indo-European culture. Additionally, in a tour de force he demonstrates that the settlements of all known Indo-European languages can be accommodated easily if such a homeland is accepted, without postulating any long-range population movements except in the case of the Indo-Iranians, to whom IE languages came later."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070808002309/http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/ieorigins/
 
Ili
"IGOR M. D’IAKONOV
One of the many rival theories of Indo-European Origins proposes that the homeland of the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language is to be found in the Balkan peninsula (Southeast Europe). This theory was most comprehensively proposed by the eminent Russian linguist and historian Igor M. D’iakonov in his seminal paper [(1985). “On the Original Home of the Speakers of Indo-European.” Journal of Indo-European Studies. Volume 13, p. 92]

D’iakonov argues quite convincingly against the two main rival theories, that of feminist Lithuanian-born author Marija Gimbutas [(1973). “The Beginning of the Bronze Age in Europe and the Indo-Europeans: 3500-2500 B.C.” Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 1, p. 163], who believed that the Indo-Europeans originated in the Russian steppes, and of Georgian linguists Gamkrelidze, T. V. and V. V. Ivanov who proposed an origin in the vicinity of the Armenian plateau [(1985). “The Migrations of Tribes Speaking Indo-European Dialects from their Original Homeland in the Near East to their Historical Habitations in Eurasia.” Journal of Indo-European Studies, Volume 13, p. 49]

D’iakonov makes an extensive survey of the linguistic and archaeological evidence and determines that the Proto-Indo-Europeans had a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry. He criticizes Gimbutas' theory which rests on little archaeological evidence and the completely arbitrary assumption that prehistoric populations used the horse as a military weapon. He is also critical of the Gamkrelidze/Ivanov work, both on linguistic reasons and because they postulate improbable migration routes to account for the historically attested IE languages.

D’iakonov demonstrates that the Balkan-Carpathian region has all the features known for Proto-Indo-European culture. Additionally, in a tour de force he demonstrates that the settlements of all known Indo-European languages can be accommodated easily if such a homeland is accepted, without postulating any long-range population movements except in the case of the Indo-Iranians, to whom IE languages came later."
https://web.archive.org/web/20070808002309/http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/ieorigins/

Чини ми се да горе поменути резултати aDNA анализе (као, уосталом, и сви претходни резултати aDNA анализе) не иду баш у прилог теорији о Балкану као прапостојбини индо-европљана.
 
Poslednja izmena:
А јесу ли мајке и шириле језик?
Majke su ga čuvale.
Muška linija onih koji su širili jezik nije preživela.
Prvi sloj je raširen u neolitskoj ekspanziji. Iz srednjeg Podunavlja.
Izgleda da jedno ponovno naseljavanje Evrope imao sa širenjem kulture polja unrni, koje prati H mtDNA.
Osvajači pobiju muškarce, ali im decu čuvaju i vaspitavju majke dok oni dalje pljačkaju.
I tako nebrojeno puta.
Zato danas nemamo G2a hg, ali imamo sve neolitske mtDNA.

Nisam siguran.
Ahile, jesi li bio na sc-u pre nekih 10ak godina?
Ne razumem na šta misliš.
 
Poslednja izmena:
U Indiji nemamo evropske Y DNA.
U Evropi nemamo indijske Y DNA.

ne postoji indijska DNA i evropska DNA

postoje npr. grane R1a tipične za Evropu i one koje su manje više tipične za Aziju...


postoji itekako yDNA koja povezuje Indiju i Evropu...

z2124_zpse6db1de0-1.jpg

ono o čemu se može raspravljati je da li su pripadnici te grane širili PIE jezik ili je taj jezik poticao iz roditeljskih grana odakle su ga i evropska i azijska R1a nasledile....


majke ne nose uvek jezik..čak naprotiv....vidi Mađare...ili Rumune... ili Francuze...ili Italijane..ili celu latinsku Ameriku..... a izvorno...latinski se izvorno pričao u jako maloj oblasti oko Rima...ili misliš da se u Rimu namnožilo žena pa su za njih svi putevi išli iz Rima i to na sve strane da se naseljavaju i šire jezik...

tvoj argument su jedino Bugari...a ja mislim da su Bugari izvorno bili Sloveni sa eventualno tursko avarskom elitom..uostalom pop Dukljanin eksplicitno kaže da je u pitanju brojni narod koji priča isti jezik...
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ne govorim o onome što je na nivou ispod procenta.
Imamo R1a Z 93, koji je stigao sa Skitima, Sarmatima i Ciganima.
No nisu Skiti, Sarmati i Cigani širili indoevropske jezike po Evropi.
i kako ti to sve objasnjavas?
Definitivno, imamo migraciju iz Evrope u Aziju.
Sanskrićani su došli u Indiju, a nisu došli iz Indije. Moguće da su usput pokupili R1a Z94, 93.
Oni su u Indiju doneli običaj spaljivanja pokojnika.

Zanimljiv mi je ovaj sa "našom" (možda pre Tračkom) J2b1 m205. Ima i G HG -a.
Teško je Y hg da se održe u tuđinskom okruženju.
 
Poslednja izmena:
ne postoji indijska DNA i evropska DNA

postoje npr. grane R1a tipične za Evropu i one koje su manje više tipične za Aziju...


postoji itekako yDNA koja povezuje Indiju i Evropu...

z2124_zpse6db1de0-1.jpg

ono o čemu se može raspravljati je da li su pripadnici te grane širili PIE jezik ili je taj jezik poticao iz roditeljskih grana odakle su ga i evropska i azijska R1a nasledile....


majke ne nose uvek jezik..čak naprotiv....vidi Mađare...ili Rumune... ili Francuze...ili Italijane..ili celu latinsku Ameriku..... a izvorno...latinski se izvorno pričao u jako maloj oblasti oko Rima...ili misliš da se u Rimu namnožilo žena pa su za njih svi putevi išli iz Rima i to na sve strane da se naseljavaju i šire jezik...

tvoj argument su jedino Bugari...a ja mislim da su Bugari izvorno bili Sloveni sa eventualno tursko avarskom elitom..uostalom pop Dukljanin eksplicitno kaže da je u pitanju brojni narod koji priča isti jezik...

Замисли, са свим овим се слажем! :)


Ne govorim o onome što je na nivou ispod procenta.
Imamo R1a Z 93, koji je stigao sa Skitima, Sarmatima i Ciganima.
No nisu Skiti, Sarmati i Cigani širili indoevropske jezike po Evropi.

Definitivno, imamo migraciju iz Evrope u Aziju.
Sanskrićani su došli u Indiju, a nisu došli iz Indije. Moguće da su usput pokupili R1a Z94, 93.

Zanimljiv mi je ovaj sa "našom" J2b1 m205. Ima i G HG -a.

Гране хаплогрупе R1a које преовладавају код Словена и гране R1a које преовладавају код Индо-Аријеваца имале су заједничког претка баш негде у време када је почело гранање индо-европских језика. Верује се да су прото-Индо-Аријевци (преци оних који су говорили санскрит и авестански) дошли из области Андроновске археолошке културе, али ако си ти измислио топлу воду онда да верујемо теби...
 
Poslednja izmena:
Da, u Indiju su došli iz te oblasti. Odakle su tu došli?

Ако те то заиста занима онда књигу у руке па види које археолошке културе претходе андроновској. Верујем да одакле можеш сам да изведеш врло вероватан одговор на твоје питање.

Иначе, у раду Keyser et al, Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people, Human Genetics 126 (2009) 395–410 обрађени су скелети 10 мушкараца из гробова у јужном Сибиру који припадају андроновској култури и културама које су је наследиле. Од тих 10 узорака један је припадао хаплогрупи C, а сви остали хаплогрупи R1a1.

...Ključno pitanje je prisustvo Evropske mtDNA. Praktično svega ovoga što imao u Starčevu.
Ниси објаснио шта подразумеваш под "европска mtDNA" и зашто је "европска".
 
Kada govorimo o kulturi, Sanskrićani su doneli običaj spaljivanja pokojnika, što nije tipično za stepske kulture, a imamo ga već u Vlascu, u Lepenskom Viru.
Koji R1a. To ne znamo, ne bih se iznenadio i da se nađe R1a Z282, zbog prisustva H, U5 i U4 mtDNA.
R1a na istoku prati C4 mtDNA.
Međutim u Indiji imamo i ovaj "Starčevački mix". J, T2, W, V, X... +H i U4. Oko 7%.
Generalno muška J2b hg je most Južmog Balkana i Anadola sa Indijom.

"and (iii) a third one associated with the presence of west Eurasian-typical mtDNA haplogroups (ie haplogroups H, JT and W, which represent 6–7% of mtDNA types in north and central tribes), most probably attributable to admixture with recent Indo-European-speaking migrants to India.50"
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n3/full/5200949a.html

R1a teza se ne može odbaciti, ali ima dosta slabih tačaka. Prvo udeo R1a van dometa CWC kulture je zanemarljiv.
Drugo, Velika razdvojenost Z280 i Z93 hg. Ona je starija od CWC ekspanzije,
Treće, R1a šire više muškarci kroz pohode no što je u pitanju naseljavanje.

Davanje R1a hg ključne uloge kod širenja indoevropskih jezika, zmačilo bi prisustvo R1a Z280 i R1a M458 u bronzanodobskoj Maloj Aziji, Grčkoj, Balknu i Apeninskom poluostrvu. Možda je i bilo. Videćemo i to.

Mađari nisu primer, jer je reč o nametnutom scenariju iz novije istorije (pismo, religija, školstvo, mediji...). Da nisu prihvatili štokavštinu, danas bi i Hrvati govorili Mađarski.

Sve ovo navodim zbog teze naših eksperata za Sanskrit, koji nalaze vezu između sanskrita i Starogrčkog, Latinskog, a preko njega i Italijanskog i Spskog.
Veza je najviše gramatika i načina izgovaranja glasova.
Južna zona je zona čistih glasova.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Definitivno, imamo migraciju iz Evrope u Aziju.
Sanskrićani su došli u Indiju, a nisu došli iz Indije. Moguće da su usput pokupili R1a Z94, 93.
Oni su u Indiju doneli običaj spaljivanja pokojnika.

Zanimljiv mi je ovaj sa "našom" (možda pre Tračkom) J2b1 m205. Ima i G HG -a.
Teško je Y hg da se održe u tuđinskom okruženju.

Dosta toga vidim da ti je odgovorio Kyrios a sa cime se ja slazem. Sto se mene licno tice, ja bih to definisao malo drugacije. Vise je nego ocigledna povezanost Z93/Z94 sa Arijevcima i "donosenjem" IE jezika do Indije. Ja bih to vise nazvao prenosenjem nego donosenjem. Da je rec o donosenju, to bi znacilo da je u vrlo kratkom periodu stigao iz istocnih delova Evrope do Indije. Dakle, rec je o procesu u kojem nisu ucestvovali evropski R1a vec njihovi (uslovno receno) azijski rodjaci.

Meni je dugo godina bilo sumnjivo zasto litvanski jezik ima najvise slicnosti sa sanskritom. Sada mi je stvar mnogo jasnija jer se vidi da je upravo negde u tom delu od istocnog Baltika do Cnog mora nalazio gro R1a. Opet su ti "neslovenski" R1a izostali iz etnogeneze onoga sto se danas smatra slovenskom kulturalno-jezickom grupacijom. Dakle, ostali su bez komponente koja je udeo drugih etnickih grupa iz centralne Evrope i kao takve su blize sanskritu od ostalih.


Nikad ali bas nikad nemoj da sudis i izvodis zakljucke o migracijama na osnovu jednog coveka na bilo kakvim kartama. To obavezno vodi u mnoge zablude i pogresna tumacenja. Ja dobro znam da u Indiji M205 zaista postoji ali je ona tu mogla doci mnogo kasnije od perioda na koji ti ciljas.
 
Poslednja izmena:
R1a teza se ne može odbaciti, ali ima dosta slabih tačaka. Prvo udeo R1a van dometa CWC kulture je zanemarljiv.
zanemarljiv je i udeo G u Evropi danas..a skoro svi antički DNK iz ranog neolit su G a tek poneki I.
što nam govori da se genetska slika Evrope drastično promenila...

recimo velika Britanija ima izuzetnu raznovrsnost DNK koja očigledno ne potiče samo od CWC i kasnijih R1a kultura..niti od Vikinga i Germana.
prouči familytreedna mape....

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results
Drugo, Velika razdvojenost Z280 i Z93 hg. Ona je starija od CWC ekspanzije,

zašto misliš da je PIE nosila CWC a ne kultura koja joj prethodi
to je čak mogao biti jezik iz vremena pre podele R1 na R1a i R1b...
vreme nastanka PIE je nepoznato....


Treće, R1a šire više muškarci kroz pohode no što je u pitanju naseljavanje.

dokaz... ideja... bilo šta kao podloga za ovu smelu i siguran sam sasvim netačnu tvrdnju...

Davanje R1a hg ključne uloge kod širenja indoevropskih jezika, zmačilo bi prisustvo R1a Z280 i R1a M458 u bronzanodobskoj Maloj Aziji, Grčkoj, Balknu i Apeninskom poluostrvu. Možda je i bilo. Videćemo i to.
pa posmatrajući familytreedna mape očigledno je da je najverovatniji scenario da iz Azije stara R1a prvo naseljava Evropu preko male Azije sve do Britanije.... da drugi talas naseljavanja dolazi preko Kavkaza...

plavo na slici je R1a* vreme nastanka je nepoznato davno...
žuto na slici je R1a1* vreme nastanka je 10000 BC
crveno na slici je R1a1a* vreme nastanka je 6000 BC

1O-R1a-1.jpg

žuto je nastalo od plave u nekoj pblasti...ali se plava pre toga i nezavisno širila...
crveno je nastalo od žute u nekoj oblasti ali su se pre toga i plava i crvena i nezavisno širile...

logični scenario je da je plavo u Evropu ušlo preko male Azije
da se to desilo pre nastanka žute u iranu...
da je žuto u vreme 10000 BC do 7000 BC iz Irana prešlo Kavkaz i preseklo od Crnog mora do Baltika pa do Atlantika gde se spojilo sa plavom pre svega u Galiji
.jedina oblast gde ima i plave i žute i crvene je Galija..
crveno nastaje negde iz žute oko 6000 BC...verovatno u Galiji jer je to i centralna oblast crvene...

od te crvene čije je jezgro u Galiji nastaju posle evropske i azijske R1a o kojima pričaš...
znači jeste originalno R1a bila u Aziji ali je odatle otišla u Evropu gde je oko 6000BC nastala R1a1a od koje se negde oko 3500 BC rzdvojila Z93 čiji se glavni deo vremenom pomerao na istok...mada su odvojeni ogranci ostali i u Britaniji i na potezu Galija Italija severna Afrika...

9A_zpsb53027c0-1.jpg

a od ove sei oko 3200BC izdvojila Z94...prvo žuta boja na slici jer ona nema Z2125+ za razliku od arapske, arijanske i kirgiske Z94...
centar ove prve žute Z94 su Karpati...iz nje se verovatno razvija plavi klaster koji je deo corded ware (CW nastaje oko 2900 BC)
z2124_zpse6db1de0-1.jpg

Arijani za koje znamo da su bili PIE (ali ne znamo ko je još sve bio PIE u to vreme) u Indiju ulaze oko 2000 BC kako tamo u Indiji ima Z94 ali ne i Z93 bez Z94, oni su verovatno bili Z94 a nisu više imali Z93 bez Z94..
to znači da nisu došli u Indiju iz pravca Kaspijskog jezera nego su verovatno pristigli iz pravca južnog Irana iz stare Persije...
otud ime Iran, Iron, Arijan...

corded ware se javlja oko 2900 BC
pretpostavlja se da su bili PIE što ne znači i da su jedini bili PIE u to vvreme.niti da su oni raširli jezik.....

shvati da corded ware kultura nastaje u istočnoj ili centralnoj Evropi a ne dolazi iz Azije...

There have been many different views concerning the origin of the Corded Ware culture. There is broadly a division between archaeologists who see an influence from pastoral societies of the steppes north of the Black Sea and those who think that Corded Ware springs from central Europe. In both camps, there are many differing views. The recent tendency has been to seek a middle way.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture

prvi Z280 ljudi nastaju 2900BC kad nastaje i corded ware..znači corded ware sem njih sadrži i druge R1a grane....jer ne može jedan čovek da napravi kulturu...
Z280 nastaje oko 2900BC i to verovatno prvo u zapadnom delu corded ware...

te godine 2900 BC nabrojniji delovi Z93 (nastala oko 3500BC) su već izdvojeni iz ove mase i oni su Yamna
Corded_Ware_culture.png

ipak deo Z93 je i unutar pre corded ware oblasti....od njih nastaje Z94...žuta na z94 slici.....nastaje oko 3200BC negde recimo u Karpatima...
logični kandidat je u okviru GAC koja je postojala od 3400BC do 2800BC
The Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), German Kugelamphoren-Kultur (KAK), ca. 3400–2800 BC, is an archaeological culture preceding the central area occupied by the Corded Ware culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture

znači Yamna je Z93 kultura
GAC je Z93 u kojoj se javlja Z94

deo Z94 GAC kulture ekspanzijom CW uzmiče ka Crnom moru i odatle doživljava ekspanziju na jug do Arabije oko 2800 BC do '2500BC
deo Z94 ostaje u pre corded ware oblasti prihvata CW i širi se sa ovom kulturom (plava boja na mapi Z94)


ovi Z94 što su stigli u Arabiju...prelaze u Persiju..2500BC do 2300 BC .odatle u istočni Iran.2300BC do 2000 BC ..odakle potčinjavaju Indiju...to su istorijski Arijani Z94

ovi Arijani su mogli stići i u Evropu ali tek sporadično...

jezik je tu bio pre njih...
uostalom PIE jezik pričaju u 1600BC i Hetiti u maloj Aziji..a oni nisu Z94 a kamoli Z94 bez ostalih Z93 kao što su Arijan...Arijanska Z94 nije došla u malu Aziju....
Hetiti su mogli na primer sadržati Z93 bez Z94..jer ova postoji u maloj Aziji...što bi značilo da su u malu Aziju došli negde sa Kavkaza gde je otprilike centar Z93 područja a gde nema Z94....

Andronovo kultura su R1b jer oni imaju bakar...i jer tragovi stare R1b u Evropu vode peko male Azije do oblasti istočno od kaspijskog jezera gde je kasnije živelo iransko pleme Dahe..

Indo-Iranian_origins.png

imena Daha, Dačani, Dojč su izvedena od imena Dagona to su R1b ljudi...imena sa Ser i Ar su R1a i izvedeni su od Ishare žene Dagonove..
 
Poslednja izmena:
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