Fabula o Slovenima koji u VI i VII veku, navodno, prelaze preko (korita) Dunava dišući na trske (sa ili bez volova)

Mrkalj:
O tome je pisao Branko Ćopić i stvarno su nam to čitali u četvrtom razredu. Koliko se sećam toliko su živeli u močvarama da bi svaki put po povratku kući morali da drže noge u lavoru sa toplom vodom.
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Ма живјели су у спејс шатлима.
 
Mrkalj:
Daj, malo šlifa.
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Сем тога, обожавају и реке и нимфе (виле) и друга нека нижа божанства (δαιμόνια) и свима њима приносе жртве и по тим жртвама врачају. Станују у бедним колибама.

Прокопије.
 
Mrkalj:
Dakle, svima onima koji bi Pseudokevkamena parafrazirali kako Sloveni dišu na trsku prelazeći Dunav, mogao bi da spočitaš samo nepreciznost u citiranju. Ne mnogo više od toga.
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Mrkalj:
Bitno je da si ti Pseudokevkamena zaobišao bez ijednog glasa o njemu.
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Псеудо-Маврикија.
 
Фратри фрањевци били су већином Босанци и Далматинци па изгледа да су ишли само у места где су живили Шокци и Буњевци са којима су могли говорити. Из самога Рима су упућивани да иду у места где се „далматински“ говори. Фратри су носили браду и бркове, и нису имали поповске мантије, да их Турци не познају и да им не досађују, кад путују. Фратри су учили и турски да би сигурније путовали. Изгледа из свега, да у мађарска села нису ишли јер нису знали са народом говорити. Катона прича о фрањевцима сегединским како су тајно обављали службу божију, како су живили сакривени по пустарама и променули одело (ементита етиам весте). Једном приликом, не каже које године, кад су их неверни Турци тражили онда су „на пустари Лудаш“ фратри загазили у једну бару и тамо цели дан били у води до врата загњурени а кад су из далека угледали непријатеља, загњурили су и главу у воду, па су трску држали у устима и тако дисали, а ноћу су служили тајно службу божију.​

https://sr.wikisource.org/sr-ec/O_katolicima_i_katoličkoj_crkvi_pod_Turcima_na_zemljištu_Vojvodine
 
Navodno, jedan od najnovijih primera bi bili seljaci koji su se sakrili u Dnjepar i disali na trske, krijući se od poljske vojske, 1768. godine

1768.png


Ovo bi trebalo da je za vreme kralja Stanislava Avgusta Ponjatovskog (1764-1795)
 
Pumpaj Dinstanović:
Pravi, to je samo veštačka inteligencija.

I meni kad sam je pitao navodi i da može biti bliže 1 metru, ali kad god sam pretraživao, minimum na ovim prostorima svuda je posvočen kao 2,1m.
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Не. У својој књизи о Власима Србије Паун Дурлић пише да у одређено доба године Дунав може бити толико плитак да су га људи прелазили пешке.

Grok:

Вештачка интелигенција.

2.​

  • 1838-1839 Drought (Romania-Bulgaria Border): Historical records from the lower Danube, particularly near Tulcea (Romania) and Ruse (Bulgaria), describe severe droughts that reduced the river’s depth significantly. In 1838, after the Great Flood subsided, the following year’s drought lowered water levels to the point where locals could wade across sections near the Danube Delta and upstream toward Silistra. Depths in some areas were reported as low as 0.5-1 meter, allowing farmers and traders to cross on foot to access markets or grazing lands. These accounts are preserved in regional archives and oral histories.
  • 1921 Drought (Serbia-Romania-Bulgaria): A well-documented drought in the early 20th century caused the Danube to reach record-low levels across its lower course. Near Vidin (Bulgaria) and Calafat (Romania), the river’s depth dropped to 1-1.5 meters in some channels, exposing sandbars and gravel beds. Local newspapers reported villagers wading across to trade goods or retrieve stranded boats, particularly in August-September when water levels were lowest. Similar conditions were noted near the Iron Gates, where shallow areas (1-2 meters) allowed limited foot crossings, though the gorges remained deeper.
  • Why possible? Prolonged droughts reduced inflow from tributaries, and the absence of modern dams (pre-1970s) allowed natural low-flow periods to expose riverbeds. Wider sections of the lower Danube, with gentler currents and sediment accumulation, were more likely to become wadable.
 
Poslednja izmena od moderatora:
Pravi Vlah:
Не. У својој књизи о Власима Србије Паун Дурлић пише да у одређено доба године Дунав може бити толико плитак да су га људи прелазили пешке.

Grok:


2.​

  • 1838-1839 Drought (Romania-Bulgaria Border): Historical records from the lower Danube, particularly near Tulcea (Romania) and Ruse (Bulgaria), describe severe droughts that reduced the river’s depth significantly. In 1838, after the Great Flood subsided, the following year’s drought lowered water levels to the point where locals could wade across sections near the Danube Delta and upstream toward Silistra. Depths in some areas were reported as low as 0.5-1 meter, allowing farmers and traders to cross on foot to access markets or grazing lands. These accounts are preserved in regional archives and oral histories.
  • 1921 Drought (Serbia-Romania-Bulgaria): A well-documented drought in the early 20th century caused the Danube to reach record-low levels across its lower course. Near Vidin (Bulgaria) and Calafat (Romania), the river’s depth dropped to 1-1.5 meters in some channels, exposing sandbars and gravel beds. Local newspapers reported villagers wading across to trade goods or retrieve stranded boats, particularly in August-September when water levels were lowest. Similar conditions were noted near the Iron Gates, where shallow areas (1-2 meters) allowed limited foot crossings, though the gorges remained deeper.
  • Why possible? Prolonged droughts reduced inflow from tributaries, and the absence of modern dams (pre-1970s) allowed natural low-flow periods to expose riverbeds. Wider sections of the lower Danube, with gentler currents and sediment accumulation, were more likely to become wadable.
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Hajde ako Paun Durlić piše, piše, ali ovo dole je samo ipak veštačka inteligencija (nema reference).
 
Pumpaj Dinstanović:
Hajde ako Paun Durlić piše, piše, ali ovo dole je samo ipak veštačka inteligencija (nema reference).
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Paun Durlić, Vorbar, Majdanpek, 2023, stranice 18,19

Mesta na kojima su Vlasi prelazili Dunav i načini na koje su to činili, spadaju u prvo- razrednu etnografsku građu koja, na žalost, nije sabrana ni komentarisana kako zaslužuje, koja postaje opšta zaraza kao gledište da su Vlasi samonikli narod, izrastao na plodnome tlu Srbije ex nihilo, koji nikad nije imao nikakve veze sa sunarodnicima severno od Dunava. U literaturi se tu i tamo pominje po nešto od toga, kao na primer mesto Juc (=rečni brzaci) kod Poreča (potonjeg Donjeg Milanovca) gde su ljudi u vreme niskog vodostaja, koji je znao biti ispod metra,30) prelazili peške preko ostenjaka koji su izvirivali iz vode, kao što je pre- ma predanju činio legendarni Baba Novak, rođen inače u Poreču oko 1530. godine.


*****
ChatGPT


Nice question — excellent for a focused bibliography. Below I’ve pulled together published, citable sources (books, edited volumes, travelogues and research reports) that either explicitly discuss low-water / fords on the Lower Danube (and so are likely places to find mentions of people wading across the river in dry years) or are standard references you should consult when hunting primary 19th–20th-century eyewitness / newspaper material about the riverbed being exposed. I’ve flagged which items are most likely to contain first-hand descriptions (travelogues/newspapers/local studies) and which are interpretive/secondary works (environmental history, syntheses).

If you want, I can next pull a few concrete newspaper items or chapter/page quotations from any one of these (for example from the British Newspaper Archive, the National Library of Romania digital collections, Hungarian/Austrian papers or local Serbian/Bulgarian press) — tell me which region or decade and I’ll fetch the primary items.

Key published sources​

  1. Patrick Leigh Fermor — Between the Woods and the Water: On Foot to Constantinople (from the Middle Danube to the Iron Gates) (travel book, describes his 1933–34 walk).
    Why useful: a contemporary 1933–34 travel diary that crosses and describes many Danubian places; travelogues often note river depth, ferries, islands and local fords. New York Review Books+1
  2. Istorie și civilizaţie de-a lungul Dunării de Jos (Collective volume / Proceedings / local studies on the Lower Danube; Brăila/Academia Română eds., 2008/2018 editions exist).
    Why useful: regionally focused studies (Lower Danube / “Dunărea de Jos”) collect local archival and vernacular evidence — look here for local village histories and documentary citations about fording / low-water crossings. (collective volume / conference proceedings). Academia
  3. A Handbook of Bulgaria (Naval Intelligence Division / British Admiralty handbook, late 19th / early 20th c.; digitized).
    Why useful: nineteenth-century travel/guide handbooks often note fords, ferry points, and shallow stretches used for crossing — the Handbook of Bulgaria (available on Archive.org) explicitly describes lower-Danube fords and shallow places. Good primary/near-primary reference for late 19th/early 20th-century conditions. Internet Archive+1
  4. Paul R. (eds.) — The Danube: On the Environmental History, Present and Future of a Great European River(edited volume / environmental history; recent).
    Why useful: synthetic environmental history of the Danube; discusses morphological change, human interventions and how low-water events and channel changes exposed islands and fords during the 19th–20th centuries. Good for contextualizing why and when fords would have been passable. ResearchGate
  5. ICPDR — “Historical patterns along the Danube’s course” (ICPDR/European Danube Commission / background briefing).
    Why useful: succinct summary of long-term morphological changes and documentary evidence for low-water conditions and how people adapted (mentions low-water crossings & historical floodplain changes). Useful as a modern, citable synthesis pointing to older sources. icpdr.org
  6. Nicolae Iorga — Chestiunea Dunării (lectures / writings, c. 1913).
    Why useful: classic Romanian historian; his lectures and collected essays on the “Danube question” bring together documentary sources (Ottoman/Austrian/Romanian archival materials) and can point to historical instances of crossings and the border/fording history of Lower Danube areas (useful for 19th–early 20th c. research). Digitized editions are available. Wikimedia Commons
  7. Regional / technical papers on Danube droughts & low-flow episodes (20th c.).
    • Identification of the historical drought occurrence on the Danube River and its tributaries (Acta Hydrologica Slovaca / research articles) — outlines documented low-flow years in the 20th century and references documentary sources where riverbeds were exposed. ResearchGate
  8. Collected travel guides & nineteenth-century “handbooks” (Murray’s Handbooks, HathiTrust / Archive.org editions).
    Why useful: Murray’s and similar guidebooks (19th c.) routinely describe fords, ferries, and times when sections could be crossed on foot — excellent for late-19th-century eyewitness-style descriptions and practical notes. (See Murray handbooks and period travel guides in online archives).

Нема смисла инсистирати да не постоје докази да се у скорашња времена могло пешке прећи преко Дунава у одређеним периодима сухе.

Дакле не стоји твоја теза да је мит да су рани Словени прешли Дунав и пешке. Иначе рани извори не кажу да су ти Словени користили трске да би прешли преко Дунава него да су користили трске да би се сакривали под водом од непријатљеских Ромејских трупа.
 
Pravi Vlah:
Paun Durlić, Vorbar, Majdanpek, 2023, stranice 18,19

Mesta na kojima su Vlasi prelazili Dunav i načini na koje su to činili, spadaju u prvo- razrednu etnografsku građu koja, na žalost, nije sabrana ni komentarisana kako zaslužuje, koja postaje opšta zaraza kao gledište da su Vlasi samonikli narod, izrastao na plodnome tlu Srbije ex nihilo, koji nikad nije imao nikakve veze sa sunarodnicima severno od Dunava. U literaturi se tu i tamo pominje po nešto od toga, kao na primer mesto Juc (=rečni brzaci) kod Poreča (potonjeg Donjeg Milanovca) gde su ljudi u vreme niskog vodostaja, koji je znao biti ispod metra,30) prelazili peške preko ostenjaka koji su izvirivali iz vode, kao što je pre- ma predanju činio legendarni Baba Novak, rođen inače u Poreču oko 1530. godine.


*****
ChatGPT


Nice question — excellent for a focused bibliography. Below I’ve pulled together published, citable sources (books, edited volumes, travelogues and research reports) that either explicitly discuss low-water / fords on the Lower Danube (and so are likely places to find mentions of people wading across the river in dry years) or are standard references you should consult when hunting primary 19th–20th-century eyewitness / newspaper material about the riverbed being exposed. I’ve flagged which items are most likely to contain first-hand descriptions (travelogues/newspapers/local studies) and which are interpretive/secondary works (environmental history, syntheses).

If you want, I can next pull a few concrete newspaper items or chapter/page quotations from any one of these (for example from the British Newspaper Archive, the National Library of Romania digital collections, Hungarian/Austrian papers or local Serbian/Bulgarian press) — tell me which region or decade and I’ll fetch the primary items.

Key published sources​

  1. Patrick Leigh Fermor — Between the Woods and the Water: On Foot to Constantinople (from the Middle Danube to the Iron Gates) (travel book, describes his 1933–34 walk).
    Why useful: a contemporary 1933–34 travel diary that crosses and describes many Danubian places; travelogues often note river depth, ferries, islands and local fords. New York Review Books+1
  2. Istorie și civilizaţie de-a lungul Dunării de Jos (Collective volume / Proceedings / local studies on the Lower Danube; Brăila/Academia Română eds., 2008/2018 editions exist).
    Why useful: regionally focused studies (Lower Danube / “Dunărea de Jos”) collect local archival and vernacular evidence — look here for local village histories and documentary citations about fording / low-water crossings. (collective volume / conference proceedings). Academia
  3. A Handbook of Bulgaria (Naval Intelligence Division / British Admiralty handbook, late 19th / early 20th c.; digitized).
    Why useful: nineteenth-century travel/guide handbooks often note fords, ferry points, and shallow stretches used for crossing — the Handbook of Bulgaria (available on Archive.org) explicitly describes lower-Danube fords and shallow places. Good primary/near-primary reference for late 19th/early 20th-century conditions. Internet Archive+1
  4. Paul R. (eds.) — The Danube: On the Environmental History, Present and Future of a Great European River(edited volume / environmental history; recent).
    Why useful: synthetic environmental history of the Danube; discusses morphological change, human interventions and how low-water events and channel changes exposed islands and fords during the 19th–20th centuries. Good for contextualizing why and when fords would have been passable. ResearchGate
  5. ICPDR — “Historical patterns along the Danube’s course” (ICPDR/European Danube Commission / background briefing).
    Why useful: succinct summary of long-term morphological changes and documentary evidence for low-water conditions and how people adapted (mentions low-water crossings & historical floodplain changes). Useful as a modern, citable synthesis pointing to older sources. icpdr.org
  6. Nicolae Iorga — Chestiunea Dunării (lectures / writings, c. 1913).
    Why useful: classic Romanian historian; his lectures and collected essays on the “Danube question” bring together documentary sources (Ottoman/Austrian/Romanian archival materials) and can point to historical instances of crossings and the border/fording history of Lower Danube areas (useful for 19th–early 20th c. research). Digitized editions are available. Wikimedia Commons
  7. Regional / technical papers on Danube droughts & low-flow episodes (20th c.).
    • Identification of the historical drought occurrence on the Danube River and its tributaries (Acta Hydrologica Slovaca / research articles) — outlines documented low-flow years in the 20th century and references documentary sources where riverbeds were exposed. ResearchGate
  8. Collected travel guides & nineteenth-century “handbooks” (Murray’s Handbooks, HathiTrust / Archive.org editions).
    Why useful: Murray’s and similar guidebooks (19th c.) routinely describe fords, ferries, and times when sections could be crossed on foot — excellent for late-19th-century eyewitness-style descriptions and practical notes. (See Murray handbooks and period travel guides in online archives).

Нема смисла инсистирати да не постоје докази да се у скорашња времена могло пешке прећи преко Дунава у одређеним периодима сухе.

Дакле не стоји твоја теза да је мит да су рани Словени прешли Дунав и пешке. Иначе рани извори не кажу да су ти Словени користили трске да би прешли преко Дунава него да су користили трске да би се сакривали под водом од непријатљеских Ромејских трупа.
Kliknite za proširenje...

Pa niko ne insistira. :) Postavljanje pitanja za referencu nije negiranje njenog postojanja, niti dovođenje čak i implicitno da je tvrdnja neosnovana. To je ono što jeste. Potraga za činjenicama.

Mislim da si do sada imao prilike da se upoznaš sa ozbiljnim problemima koje imaju ti tzv. AI generatori teksta. Postoji i tema posvećena tome u celosti: (Ne)upotrebljivost ChatGPT-ja kao izvor informacija. Postoje ozbiljni problemi i tu i može se nešto ili sve od tačaka koje si postavio u tih 8, zapravo ispostaviti netačnim.

Da se razumemo, ovo se ne tiče toga da li ja (ne) verujem forumašu @FDDD kada je izneo svoju tvrdnju. Radi se oko toga da to nije nešto što bismo dalje mogli citirati kao precizno utvrđenu činjeni. Ako dođem i kažem nekom sledbeniku Deretića, koji kaže da je Dunav preko 10 metara dubok, jednostavno je nedovoljno reći da sam pročitao na jednom forumu kod jednog anonimnog forumaša izrečenu tvrdnju, i osoba može slobodno da nastavi da priča kako je 5, 10 i više metara dubok. Dakle, potreban nam je citat.

P. S. Inače, ovo otkriva jednu prilično ozbiljnu kontradikciju kod simpatizera Deretićeve škole. Naime, za divno čudo, Dunav je pre oko hiljadu i četiristo godina nekakva gotovo nepremostiva barijera, veća nego što je srpska vojska imala povlačeći se preko Albanije na krf ili Hanibal kada je prelazio Alpe, a u potpuno isto vreme pre više od šest hiljada godina bio je žila kucavica drevne vinčanske civilizacije (koja je bila konstantno premošćivana, oko naseljenih mesta gotovo svakodnevno). Preko 4 i po hiljade godina ranije, pre doba velikih Seoba naroda. :D
 
Poslednja izmena:
FDDD:
Stari narodi i kulture živeli su u skladu sa prirodom i poznavali su njena pravila.
A šta je sa zaledjenim Dunavom? Tada je mogao još lakše da se predje.
@Pumpaj Dinstanović Barem za to ima dokaza da Dunav može da zaledi :D
Kliknite za proširenje...
Може да се заледи, али им онда не требају дрске за дисање испод воде.
 
FDDD:
Stari narodi i kulture živeli su u skladu sa prirodom i poznavali su njena pravila.
A šta je sa zaledjenim Dunavom? Tada je mogao još lakše da se predje.
@Pumpaj Dinstanović Barem za to ima dokaza da Dunav može da zaledi :D
Kliknite za proširenje...

Zapravo, to bi čak odgovaralo tzv. Kasnoantičkom malom ledenom dobu, koje bi trebalo da je obuhvatalo baš to razdoblje dolaska pripadnika slovenskih plemena sa severa, između 536. i 660. godine.

Referentni rad tima naučnika: Cooling and societal change during the Late Antique Little Ice Age from 536 to around 660 AD.

To je ona izuzetno crna epoha za život, nakon katastrofične vulkanske erupcije, slabijeg sunca, itd. Zapravo, u radu se i dovodi direktna korelacija između tih klimatskih promena i pokreta različigih grupa stanovništva npr. iz Azije ili Arabije, uključujući i migracije Slovena.

Dunav bi bio lakše i ćešće zaleđen...ali, ni to nije bio, svakako, primarni način prelaska reke. I ne igra ulogu disanje na trske. Ostavićemo priču o tome za kasnije, kada neko krene sa „mene su učili u školi da je Dunav bio godinama bez prestanka zaleđen, uključujući i leti, i da su tako Sloveni sa svom stokom, ovcama, kozama, tenkovima i ostalim prelazili preko toga“ dok poziva „bečko-berlince da ponesu par volova sledeći put jad se Dunav zaledi, pa vidi da li je pametno i lagano da pređe“. :D
 
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