Vlasi — balkanski fenomen

[Carlin15]

Would it surprise you to learn that many "Vlach shepherds" have Slavic blood? The Slavic influence of which we speak here needn't necessarily date back one or two hundred years. It could be from ten centuries ago. Thus, an alleged Vlach presence, or even dominance within a particular area, at a give time, in no way negates the possibility of a Slavic or Greek presence.

As Larisa pointed out at the very start, some in Greece are reluctant to admit that they are anything but 'purely Greek', and are disinclined to admit to anything that may point to a possible non-Greek presence in their village, city, country. Does it honestly seem logical to you that someone should neglect to so much as mention the possibility of a connection between 'Servou' and the Serbian ethnonym? How does one manage to overlook something so obvious? Bear in mind, this is Greece; it is highly unlikely that they wouldn't have herd of the Serbs. Why, then, is this perfectly plausible theory ignored? Does it really not warrant mentioning?

It's akin to a hypothetical situation of a linguist in Serbia claiming that 'Метохија' cames from 'метох(=ставих) и ја', and completely ignoring the Greek 'μετοχή' as its obvious origin.

I am not surprised at all, I have even (I believe) posted material where in many areas Vlachs mixed / assimilated with Slavs, and vice versa.

 

[Pravi Vlah]

Would it surprise you to learn that many "Vlach shepherds" have Slavic blood?

That's anachronistic language. Blood doesn't know anything about either ethnicity or language. The same is true of haplogroups.

The term "Slavic blood" is even funnier when one thinks that Slavs are not mentioned anywhere before the 6th century and that both archeological and genetic evidence indicate there was no large-scale migration. So, there were no Slavs until, say, the fifth century but by the tenth century there were Slavs from the Adriatic to the Baltic and the Urals. Yet there is no evidence of a demographic explosion of Slavs. If there had been such an explosion, the term "Slavic blood" would make some sense. But there wasn't.

Slavs descend mostly from non Slavs whose original languages were replaced by a new language which appeared in a small group consisting of southern Balts, northern Thracians and western Iranians. During the first centuries following the appearance of this language it underwent a series of sound shifts and grammatical changes. The language spread by contact, accommodation and assimilation -- not by the wholesale physical disappearance and replacement of earlier populations.

 

[haeul]

The hysteria continues. I have no intention of wasting my time on addressing your fables.

Do me a favour and look up 'anachronistic' in a dictionary.

 

[AELarisa]

 

[gost 371695]

There is no doubt that I am a descendant of legionnaires. I am also a descendant of Cuman warriors. Or of Huns, Avars, etc. And of Vlach shepherds.

But to return to your outrageous statement:
According to the historian Tibor Zivkovic, in the 7th or 8th century the Serbs made up just 2% of the population. That means today's Serbs are 98% something else. So that 98% fraction did not change their identity?

We don't even know if those 2% Serbs were Slavs. Scientists suppose they were Iranians. Even today there is a Pashtun tribe named Sarbani. Here's a photo of Pashtuns. These must be your distant cousins:

Moreover the Slavs who came to the Balkans were pagan.

So, please back up your statement. What part of the Serbs were a people? What part of their identity did they preserve?

Jeli da te pitam ovako nevezano, dal si ti normalan?!

Ovakve gluposti ja odavno nisam procitao...Jesi li ti upucen I malo u istorijsku nauku ili si trol? Za genetiku te necu ni pitati.
Elem, ti negde rece da si Kuman?! Pa tvoji pretci su ovde dosli kao laka konjica u svojstvu gušenja sitnih pobuna za vreme kralja Milutina. Dakle bolje na to obrati pažnju. Ako si Kuman kako si onda Roman?! Kako si starosedelac Balkana kada ti poreklo nema veze sa evropom.

 

[AELarisa]

Constantine the Great language policy

 

[AELarisa]

Nicetas Choniates, Byzantine historian and writer, 11th century:

“Tους κατά τον Αίμον το όρος βαρβάρους, οι Μυσοί πρότερον ωνομάζοντο, νυνί δε Βλάχοι κικλήσκονται οι οποίοι τα Θετταλίας κατέχων μετέωρα, α νυν μεγάλη Βλαχία κικλήσκεται”

Translation:
The barbarians that live in Emos mountains [today Balkan Mountains / Stara Planina], that before were named Mysians and now they are called Vlachs, occupy Meteora Thessaly and they call it Great Vlachia.

 

[AELarisa]

Another Byzantine historian and writer (Kekaumenos) about the Vlachs:

"Ώκουν δε πρότερον πλησίον του Σάου, ον νυν ποταμόν Σάβαν καλούμεν, ένθα Σέρβοι αρτίως οικούσιν, εν οχυροίς και δυσβάτοις τόποις. Τούτοις θαρρούντες υπεκρίνοντο αγάπην και δούλωσιν προς τους αρχαιοτέρους των Ρωμαίων βασιλείς και εξερχόμενοι των οχυρωμάτων ελεΐζοντο τας χώρας των Ρωμαίων, όθεν αγανακτήσαντες κατ’ αυτών, ως είρηται, διέφθειραν αυτούς, οι και εξελθόντες των εκείσε διεσπάρησαν εν πάση τη Ηπείρω και Μακεδονία, οι δε πλείονες αυτών ώκησαν την Ελλάδα"

Translation:
They [the Vlachs] used to live close to Sava river, that now Serbs live there, in inaccessible and fortressed places. They pretended to be loyal to the Roman emperors, but they went on looting the Roman lands and the Romans, angry with them, destroyed/defeated them and then they moved to other parts, in all Epirus and Macedonia and most of them moved to Greece.

 

[AELarisa]

According to Kekaumenos, the Vlachs are a mixture of Dacians and Vessians (Thracian tribe) that lived close to Danube and Sava rivers and then most of them moved to the south and basically to what is today Albania, northern Greece (especially Epirus) and FYR Macedonia.
He says that they do not respect anything (God, family etc), that you cannot trust them and that they are great looters.

 

[AELarisa]

Thede Kahl, German writer and professor, that has been studying the Vlach phenomenon of the Balkans for many years.

He says that the Vlachs were most probably Thracian-Illyrian tribes that lived in central parts of the Balkans and were latinised and then (when the Slavs came to the region) most of them moved to other parts of the Balkans. He also says that Romanians are a different nation, although a part of them is the same as the Vlachs.

See video below (it is in greek), especially after 14:30.

 

[Carlin15]

AELarisa - as discussed can you please translate the following? Thanks. Book is by Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armani (Vlachs)".

Page 75, footnote 206 and the other one is on page 111, footnote 304.

What I got out of it is as follows:
- "Vlach word is preserved even today in the villages of Mesa Mani (= Inner Mani). From Maniot dictionary of Corsica also shows that before 1680 Maniates rescued many other Vlach words and verb forms, like: alafrunesko, meinesko, plithunesko, etc. Furthermore, names and surnames of Mani residents of the same period were pure Vlach".
- "The inhabitants of mountain villages of the Peloponnese were blend of Orthodox (Christian) populations, which of course, confirms the existence of the Vlachs, which arises from an order of the Venetians (1688), and from Mani songs that send out to the devil the Vlach language..."

 

[AELarisa]

Footnote 206:
As it is written in the Great Greek Encyclopedia, additional book D, blah blah, that vlach word still exists in villages of Mesa Mani [Mesa Mani is called the Mani side that is on Kalamata bay]. From the Maniot of Corsica dictionary, we also get that before 1680 they had kept many other Latin-macedonian words and verbal forms, such as alafrynesko, minesko, plithensko, etc. Moreover, many names and surnames of Maniots of that time were clearly Vlach.

Footnote 304: (there is a syntax error here, I will try to give the best translation)
See report of Venetian Administrator blah blah, where it is mentioned that the people of mountainous villages of the Peloponnese were a mixture of orthodox popluations, a fact, of course, that confirms the presence of Vlachs and it also comes out from an order of the Venetians and from the Maniot songs that send to the devil the Vlach and the Moraitiki language, because they [speakers of Vlach and of Moraitiki] were making fun of the Maniot language and also from the nickname Vlachs that was given not only to Arcadians but also to a part of Maniots. Also see M. Lamprinidou, "The Albanians in mainland Greece and the Peloponnese".

 

[gost 371695]

Kakva ludost od teme. Čemu ovo služi uopšte

 

[Carlin15]

Footnote 206:
As it is written in the Great Greek Encyclopedia, additional book D, blah blah, that vlach word still exists in villages of Mesa Mani [Mesa Mani is called the Mani side that is on Kalamata bay]. From the Maniot of Corsica dictionary, we also get that before 1680 they had kept many other Latin-macedonian words and verbal forms, such as alafrynesko, minesko, plithensko, etc. Moreover, many names and surnames of Maniots of that time were clearly Vlach.

Footnote 304: (there is a syntax error here, I will try to give the best translation)
See report of Venetian Administrator blah blah, where it is mentioned that the people of mountainous villages of the Peloponnese were a mixture of orthodox popluations, a fact, of course, that confirms the presence of Vlachs and it also comes out from an order of the Venetians and from the Maniot songs that send to the devil the Vlach and the Moraitiki language, because they [speakers of Vlach and of Moraitiki] were making fun of the Maniot language and also from the nickname Vlachs that was given not only to Arcadians but also to a part of Maniots. Also see M. Lamprinidou, "The Albanians in mainland Greece and the Peloponnese".

Much appreciated.

Adding more to this insane thread.

"... northwards into Macedonia pure Greeks are no longer to be found. All the communities which are included under that designation are Wallachs; or Romounoi, as they call themselves -- Greco - Wallachs, as they are called by the Hellenes."

Twixt Greek and Turk; Or, Jottings During a Journey Through Thessaly ..., By Sir Valentine Chirol, Year 1881

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=bj... longer to be found wallachs romounoi&f=false

Ludnica

 

[Carlin15]

"Narodskim jezikom (u Tesaliji gde su poglavito ili u većini bili Cincari pogrčeni Latini) prostaci se kaže Vulgari, grčkim slovima napisano Βονλγαροι."

Jovan Dragašević, Makedonski Sloveni, 1890 - URL:
https://www.rastko.rs/rastko-mk/istorija/opste/jdragasevic-makedonski_l.html

 

[Krishna]

Погледај румунски филм о Дачанима (први-други век наше ере)

Дачани су нећу рећи били исти народ као Словени, али су били врло сродни Словенима.

Ово су стварни преци Влаха

 

[Pravi Vlah]

Дачани су нећу рећи били исти народ као Словени, али су били врло сродни Словенима.

Ово су стварни преци Влаха

Дачко краљевство, римско освајање Дакије и романизација Дачана је свакако основни мит румунске етногенезе. Можда садржи зрно истине.

Кад је неко већ споменуо да Румуни немају историјске филмове о средњем веку, ево румунски филм о Штефану Великом (потукао је Султана Мехмета Освајача, тј, оног који је узео Цариград)

 

[Krishna]

Дачко краљевство, римско освајање Дакије и романизација Дачана је свакако основни мит румунске етногенезе. Можда садржи зрно истине.

Кад је неко већ споменуо да Румуни немају историјске филмове о средњем веку, ево румунски филм о Штефану Великом (потукао је Султана Мехмета Освајача, тј, оног који је узео Цариград)

Стефан Велики је био молдавски војвода.

У то време су постојале Влашка и Молдавија а Румунија је настала тек средином 19-ог века, чисто да се зна.

 

[Pravi Vlah]

Стефан Велики је био молдавски војвода.

У то време су постојале Влашка и Молдавија а Румунија је настала тек средином 19-ог века, чисто да се зна.

Румунска реч voievod, мада словенског исходишта, не значи исто што значи српска реч војвода. Румунски voievod значи принц. Што се тиче разлике између егзонима Влах и ендонима Румун, то је опште познато, сем понеким овдашњим форумашима.

 

[Krishna]

Румунска реч voievod, мада словенског исходишта, не значи исто што значи српска реч војвода. Румунски voievod значи принц. Што се тиче разлике између егзонима Влах и ендонима Румун, то је опште познато, сем понеким овдашњим форумашима.

Ајде добро, јесте да се не слажем али то за Влахе и Румуне си поновио 10 000 пута, али шта је са Молдавцима?

 

[Mstislav]

Румунска реч voievod, мада словенског исходишта, не значи исто што значи српска реч војвода. Румунски voievod значи принц. Што се тиче разлике између егзонима Влах и ендонима Румун, то је опште познато, сем понеким овдашњим форумашима.

Aha, dobar si.

 

[Carlin15]

- "The well-wooded and cultivated districts of Grevena and Castoria, which are mainly inhabited by a Vlach population, are remarkably beautiful, and the scenery around Lakes Ochrida and Prespa is exceedingly picturesque."

- "The Greek and Vlach populations are not always easily distinguished, as a considerable proportion of the Vlachs have been hellenized. Both show a remarkable aptitude for commerce..."

URL:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclopædia_Britannica/Macedonia

 

[haeul]

Vlachs had no collective identity of their own. That's partly why they so readily assimilated into surrounding nations. Thus, a Hellenised 'Vlach' is simply a Greek. He has no other idenitity to speak of.

The Vlachs to which I am referring here are not Romanians, who developed an identity of their own, but the various other Romance speakers that lived throughout the peninsula.

 

['Clint']

Then let's see some people that share those surnames (almost all -if not all- from Thessaly).

Garavelis:

Zouzoulas:

Tsaras:

The famous journalist (and relative of mine), Athina Krikeli:

And now, let's take a look at the Vlachs from Greece:

Well, honestly, I do not think that they are even close.
Maybe some Vlachs of Slavic origin could look like them.

Why are you so obvious and selective? You picked up pictures of Greeks that doesn't represent look of modern Greeks...i guess we should think that Greeks are mostly blonde with blue eyes,is that your point?..I was few times in Greece and rarely see people that look like on your pictures,actually you guys have most darkest variation from all Balkan nation...i dont think less about Greeks because of that but this is ridiciolous what you trying to doo.

 

['Clint']

This is how Greeks look and there is nothing wrong with that...typicall Mediterian...i dont see much blondism here and i dont know why most members here see that like something ideal or superrior..