Па на истом линку Max Vasmer-а који сам већ поставио.
http://promacedonia.org/en/mv/mv_2.htm
Die Slaven am Taygetos und bei Tainaron werden im 15, Jahrhundert von Laonikos Chalkondyles (ed. Darkó), Historiae 131, 14 ff., erwähnt, wo auch ihre Verwandtschaft mit anderen Slavenstämmen festgestellt wird.
Словени на Таигетос и Таинарон су у 15 веку Chalkokondylis , где је њихов однос успостављен са другим славенским племенима. Конкретно, та племена су Хрвати и Пољаци (ово могу накнадно да поставим).
Или
Der Dichter Mazaris, ein Nachahmer des Lukian und Zeitgenosse Michaels des Paläologen (1391—1425), spricht von der Mischbevölkerung des Peloponnes und nennt darunter auch die Σθλαβῖνο.
Тај цитат је заправо
http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-«anam...»-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010
Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά
На Пелопонезу, као што се види , борави разне мешовити народе, који је раздвајање није ни лако ни потребно ... Лаконце, Италијани , Пелопонежане, Словени, Илири, Египћани и Јудеји.
Да узмимо у обзир да су Лаконце су Цаконци односно Власи као што тврдиш. Италијани су заправо Латини, односно мешавина Француза, Каталонаца, Италијана итд. Пелопонежани су Грци,Илири Албанци, Египћани Цигани, Јудеји Јевреји. Па ваљда су Словени онда Словени а не нека друга врста Влаха (поред Лаконце).
Даље, како то Французи који владају над Пелопонезу причају о непокорним Esclavones? Како могу да их трпају те људе у исти кош са Пољацима или Русима, ако причају сродним језиком (француски и влашки припадају романској групи језика)
http://txm.bfm-corpus.org/pdf/moree.pdf
Исто важи и за друге Латине
Die Venezianer nannten noch Ende des 15. Jahrhunderts einige Landschaften des Peloponnes Sclavonia; z. B. heißt es bei Sathas DI I298: ad partes Zachonie seit Sclavonie.
Млечани називају чак и крајем 15. века неке предели Пелопонеза Склавониа;
Zdravo Atentator, hvala na odgovoru.
Sve ovo sto si naveo je tacno (citati su mi poznati od ranije i Sloveni se pominju na Peloponezu), ali ne treba odbacivati mogucnost da su Melingi bili Vlasi. Ti si rekao da je to fantastika, bez da razmotris clanak J. Benosa koji sam naveo. Ali, u redu.
Ja idem korak dalje, i dovodim u pitanje znacenje termina koji su koriscenji tada ("Esclavones", "Sclaveni", itd. Da li su Mardaiti zapravo Albanci? Da li su Albanci zapravo Arvanitovlasi? Itd.), i pitam se da li postoji mogucnost da se ovi termini zapravo odnose na druge narode (?). Dacu jos par primera, specificno sto se tice Melinga ali i Cakona, koji su dosta zanimljivi. Ovo sto sledi su citati iz knjige C.N. Sathas-a ali i William Martin Leake-a, Bernard Randolph-a, itd. (Sathas preveden sa francuskog na engleski).
Before I continue, note that mountain Taygetos and Cape Tainaron are considered as traditional lands of Maniotes - or Mani. Also, the lands of Maniotes and of Tsakonians border Arcadia.
1) Citations from Sathas:
- According to testimonies from both Chalkokondylis and Meletius
"the Slavs" of mountain Taygetos and Cape Tainaron in Peloponnese,
were called Vlachs and
belonged to the same race, as the people living in Dacia, Pindus area and Great Wallachia-Thessaly.
- A Maniote from the 18th century, Niphakis, 'includes' Melingi as part (branch) of Maniotes.
- According to a Tsakonian merchant (or trader), M. Kolossucas, there still existed a tradition among his people that
Tsakonians once occupied Macedonia, and were exiled from there to Laconia by the emperors.
- There existed
"ethnological" chaos among various writers during the Middle Ages. Terms and names were used
interchangeably and liberally.
2) Peloponnesiaca: A Supplement to Travels in the Moréa, By William Martin Leake.
Quote from page 336:
".. for it is evident from the anonymous Metrical Chronicle of the Wars of the Franks in the Morea in the 13th century, that Tzakonia had then a much wider signification. Even as late as the beginning of the 18th century we find the Venetians applying the name Zaccunia to all the ancient Laconia,
including Mani. There remains, therefore, the strongest reason to believe that
the Lakones or Tzakones mentioned by Pachymer and Gregoras consisted chiefly of Maniates."
3) "The
Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks." -- The present state of the Morea called Peloponnesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686.
It is rather interesting that Randolph didn't find any Slavs or Vlachs in Arcadia - but also most importantly - no Greeks. Did the "Slavs" of Skorta (a district of Arcadia known as bastion of the 'Slavs') die off and/or evaporate to be replaced by "Albanians" throughout Arcadia? If they were absorbed by the Greeks, how come Randolph didn't find any ethnic Greeks in Arcadia? I just added this quote as another twist to this whole story.
4) To further complicate matters, allow me to quote Evliya Thelebi who spoke of the physical features of some Tsakonians as follows:
Evliya Tchelebi compares the
features of the inhabitants of Tzaconia between Molai and Monemvasia, to those of
Tatar-Kalmyks.
Original quote: "Nous signalons ici qu'Evliya Tchelebi compare les traits des habitants de la Tzaconie entre Molai et Monevasie a ceux des Tatars-Kalmouks..."
5) The London Quarterly Review, published in April 1895 and July 1895: "The Wallachians ... are numerous in the Peloponnesus."
6) Source: Les Tzacones, by Stam. C. Caratzas. Page 126:
French: "Deux indications militent pour l'existence d'un rapport entre les Tzacones et les Valaques dans la poesie populaire."
English: "Two indications argue for the
existence of a relationship between Tsakonians and Vlachs in popular poetry."
7) Μικρότερες ομάδες Αρβανιτοβλάχων σύμφωνα με την παράδοση εγκαταστάθηκαν νότια στην Πελοπόννησο --> According to tradition groups of Arvanitovlachs settled in the southern Peloponnese.
http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2011/05/blog-post_7292.html
8) Sathas, page 'Preface LXVIII': "The Mardaites inhabited the territory of Monemvasia, or modern Tzaconia."
PAGE 'Preface LXXII': "The Mardaites inhabit Nicopolis (that is, Epirus), the island of Kephalonia, Crete and Tenos. The Tzaconians are also found in Epirus, Thessaly, Crete as well as Peloponnesus.
In the chrysobull of M. Gabrielopoulos, the prince of Thessaly (1295 AD),
the military garrison is named "tsakoniki" (tsakonian). By this word are designated Albanian bands, as the chrysobull itself seems to explain. The Mardaite corps are confined in Asia Minor too; in the same province are also installed corps of Tzaconians.
Chalcocondyle and archbishop Meletius claim that the Tzaconians are from Mount Pindus. At the time of emperor Cantacuzene, this mountain belonged to the Albanians. The Venetian documents mention Albanians in Tzaconia."
9) S. Caratzas, per below.
Page 221, Footnote 124.
FR:
"Philippson admettent que des installations slaves existaient a Vatika aussi, c'est-a-dire au sud de la fortresse de Tzaconie et pres de Monemvasie. Quelques noms de lieu slaves renforcent cette supposition."
ENG:
"Philippson admits that
Slavic colonies (installations) existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some
Slavic place names reinforce this supposition."
10) According to Florin Curta, the "Tsakonians" appear to have been settled in the Peloponnesus in the course of the ninth and tenth century. As a result, the evidence seems to be mounting that the "Tsakonians" (just like the Melingi) have no ancient connection and links to Lakonia and the Peloponnese.
Interestingly, the viewpoint that the Tsakonians were settled in the Peloponnesus, from elsewhere, is also supported and shared by the author Stamatis C. Caratzas. If I understood him correctly, his basic argument and thesis is that the Tsakonians originate from Macedonia, namely from the area of Chalkidiki peninsula - and specifically, from the vicinity of Mount Athos district (Holy Mountain).
At the time when the "Tsakonians" were moved from Mt. Athos area to Peloponnesus (in the course of the ninth and tenth century), the overwhelming ethnic majority of the area of Mt. Athos, and nearby regions, were simply Vlach-speakers and Slavic-speakers (there were some Armenians as well, and perhaps others (?), but the ethnic majority were Vlach-speakers and Slavic-speakers).
In summary, the historical evidence seems strong that the Tsakonians, Maniotes but also the Melingi, originate - at the minimum - from a mix of Vlach-speaking, Slavic-speaking, and Albanian-speaking populations.
