Christoff
Početnik
- Poruka
- 43
Nema veze imperijalizam i nacionalna pripadnost.
VMRO /ob/ bila kominternovska organizacija.
VMRO /ob/ bila kominternovska organizacija.
-
- Popularno:
- Stefan Nemanja – ratnik, monah i svetac
- Ukupan broj ljudi, svih vremena, na...
- Напредна Карлеуша
- Vučić Pobegulja ponovo pobegao iz...
- Radnik komunalnog preduzeća odbio da...
- Kad već ne znamo sami, koju bi od...
- Letonija zabranila ulazak Goranu...
- Да ли Кина лаже о броју становника?
- Студенти Правног у блокади: Коме је...
- Da li ste najzad shvatili da studentski...
Негативне последице српске управе у Македонији
- Začetnik teme Sandanski
- Datum pokretanja
- stanje
Christoff
Početnik
- Poruka
- 43
Verkovic je pisao
Sandanski ne zna, evo nesto konkretno
- - - - - - - - - -
6 декември 1927
Christoff
Početnik
- Poruka
- 43
Makedonski narod tada je bio kao svajcarski narod. Makedonci su bili i Bugari i Vlasi i svi ostali stanovnici Makedonije."Поробљени Македонски народ"
- Poruka
- 11.573
Не знам да ли се правиш на силу глуп или си заиста глуп...Само глуп човек може да негира један народ,који очито имао руке па писао,сликао...итд..
Ајмо поново..
"Македонски народ" на више места..
ВМРО-(Обединета) 1925
Програм - члан 5
5) Да се разоткриваат и да води непоштедна борба против предавниците Македонци
што му се ставиле во услуга на бугарскиот, српскиот и грчкиот империјализам
----------
Сваки твој покушај да оспориш нешто што лепо пише је покушај идиота,или човека који не зна да чита..
Дакле ми смо се борили против срба,бугара и грка у том периоду...То нико не може да промени..
Poslednja izmena:
DareS
Aktivan član
- Poruka
- 1.367
Сандански,да те цитирам: "Не знам да ли се правиш на силу глуп или си заиста глуп". Зар не увиђаш да,назови аргументи које овде износиш, ама баш никог нису убедили у твоју верзију историје? Окушај се на неким другим темама, где мало више можеш да пружиш.
Christoff
Početnik
- Poruka
- 43
Pise na bugarskom, ima hiljade dokumenata od kojih se vidi da vas sve jos ve nema. Makedonci bili svi stanovnici Makedonije.
VMRO /ob/ se borila protiv bugarskog, srpskog i grckog imperijalizma, ali svi vrhni licnosti te organizacije do kraj svog zivota ostali Bugari. Transformirani u etnicki Makedonci bili nekoliko renegati.
Pokazao sam stav akad. Katardzieva. On je sve objasnio.
http://bugarash.blog.bg/drugi/2007/...m-vo-nacionalniot-imunitet-na-makedonec.48930
Intervju sa vodjom VMRO-a Ivan vančo Mihajlovom za italijanski list Storia Illustrata iz 1990. U intervjuu jasno navodi da je VMRO bugarski pokret i da oni ne priznaju postojanje makedonske nacije koju smatraju za komunisticku izmisljotinu:
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/pavelic/ap0038.html
The Conspirator Rediscovered
This is an original translation of an article which first appeared in the now-defunct Italian magazine Storia Illustrata in 1990. The fates of Ante Pavelic and the head of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, Ivan "Vance" Mihailov, are intertwined after the former went into exile in 1929; among Pavelic's first contacts in Vienna was Mihailov's girlfriend. After receiving an invitation to IMRO's headquarters in Banka, Pavelic joined IMRO in a declaration of war against the Royal Yugoslav government, and the Ustase was born. Certain scholars have somehow claimed that the identity of King Alexander's assassin - a Bulgarian "loaned" to the Ustase after two previous bungled assassination attempts ordered by Pavelic - somehow absolves Pavelic and Eugen-Dido Kvaternik of complicity in the crime which they planned. Mihailov's statements on the issue, if they are to be believed, certainly indicate that it was the Ustase, and not IMRO, which planned the assassination in Marseilles. Mihailov's claim to have lived in the NDH is given credence by this document, which alleges that he was staying in the same Vatican hide-out as Pavelic after the war. The interviewer, Antonio Pitamitz, was from the Italian community in Dalmatia and wrote several articles for Storia Illustrata on the subject of Croatian history.
Ivan vančo Mihajlov
THE CONSPIRATOR REDISCOVERED
Between the two wars he led the Macedonian insurrection against Belgrade. Together with Ante Pavelic, he participated in the killing of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia in 1934. And then he disappeared. Storia Illustrata has tracked him down for this exclusive interview: his first since then.
A conversation between Ivan "Vance" Mihailov and Antonio Pitamitz
He was among the most determined enemies, of the first Yugoslavia which was born after the First World War, and of its king, Alexander I Karadjordjevic. And he was the head of one of the most powerful irredentist movements in the Balkans: the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which led the struggle of the Macedonians against the Turks beginning in 1893, and, after 1913, against Serbia which had annexed Macedonia to itself at the expense of Bulgaria after the Balkan wars of 1912-1913 and had imposed with violence the Serb way of life there. In Macedonia, IMRO had a degree of popular support, while its bases were in Bulgaria, where it was strong enough to become a "state within a state" in the 1920s, with agents in the bureaucracy, the army and in the government.
His name is Ivan Mihailov, also known as "Vance," and he led IMRO in the inter-war period. In Serbia he was considered a criminal. The pro-Bulgarian Macedonians of Serbia held him to be their defender against Serb domination. In Bulgaria he was deemed a patriot. Once, in the 1920s, over two hundred lawyers spontaneously offered to defend him when the courts in Sofia discussed prosecuting him for terrorism in absentia. The trial was scuttled.
Mihailov was one of the legendary Balkan revolutionaries of the period, internationally known for his tenacious fight for the liberation of Macedonia from Yugoslavia, often in tandem with Ante Pavelic, head of the Croat nationalist Ustase movement, who had the same goal for Croatia.
Mihailov and Pavelic's struggle against Belgrade was fought by all means at their disposal, including terrorism. Nothing was verboten, including the assassination of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia, killed in Marseilles, France in 1934 by a confidant of Mihailov's, "lent" to Pavelic's Croat Ustase who had condemned King Alexander back in 1928 after the killing Croat leader Stjepan Radic in parliament by a Montenegrin MP, a chauvinist Serb with ties to the Royal Court. Wounded by police and lynched by the enraged mob, Mihailov's agent took the secret of his identity to his grave. He went down in history as one Peter Kelemann - the last of the many aliases he used to stay one step ahead of the European police, among which was his own true name which was made public by the Bulgarian police. The Marseilles assassination made Europe fear for another Sarajevo. Fascist Italy and Horthy's Hungary, where the Ustase had training camps for their followers, were tangled up in the controversy. As it occurred at the precise moment when Mussolini was attempting a rapprochement with France (the ally of Yugoslavia), the shadow of Hitler's Germany also stretched as far as Marseilles.
But Mihailov disappeared from the scene after 1934, when Bulgarian military forces seized power in Sofia and outlawed by IMRO and its legal front, the Macedonian Revolutionary Committee. Not even the turmoil of World War II and the post-war chaos, which in the Balkans led to the tragic rendering of accounts between Croats and the pro-Bulgarian Macedonians with the Serbs, drew Mihailov back into the public eye. Many thought he was dead. Instead, Mihailov has been living for more than forty years in a Western European city, where we tracked him down.
This is the first interview Mihailov has given since the assassination in Marseilles, exclusively for Storia Illustrata. Now ninety-three years old, grown used to a life of conspiracy, he answered us in a slow, drawn manner, alternating between half-admissions and bold assertions - like the accomplished Balkan revolutionary that he is.
Q. Mr. Mihailov, let's start with the Marseilles attack. The assassin of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia was one of your men. He was positively identified by the French police as Peter Kelemann, which was one of his many aliases. What was his real name?
A. His true identity was made public by the Bulgarian police. That was Vladimir "Vlado" Gheorghiev Tchernozernsky. To me and our other companions, he had only been "Vlado."
Q. Between yourself and Ante Pavelic's Ustase there was a "coordinated action pact," both anti-Serb and anti-Yugoslav. When you "lent" Tchernozernsky to Pavelic, did you know what he would be used for?
A. A written and signed pact for a common struggle between the Macedonians and the Croats did not exist and it never has. But there was - and there still is - the same state of defense and attack against the actions and machinations of the Serbs at the expense of the Croats and the Bulgarians in Macedonia. Self-preservation is a powerful instinct. When the Serbs shot Croat MPs in the parliament, Ante Pavelic presented himself to me a few days later, as if by instinct, as a guest of the Macedonian exiles in Sofia and was welcomed with a genuine camaraderie. It was then that the Macedonian exiles and Pavelic together announced to the whole world that we would march together against Serbian tyranny. Immediately afterwards, Belgrade condemned Pavelic to death. You have to remember, Pavelic did not come to an agreement with IMRO but with the legal Macedonian National Committee, which included important people, people who were members of the Bulgarian parliament.
Q. You have not answered the question. Did you know what action Tchernozernsky was to undertake?
A. Tchernozernsky was placed at the disposal of Pavelic and the Croats for any activity directed against Yugoslavia, of course within the confines of the common fight for the liberation of our peoples from Belgrade's grip. King Alexander was one of the possible objectives.
Q. Did you discuss the death of Alexander with Pavelic?
A. Between Pavelic and myself there was no specific talk of the assassination. But for us it was a natural conclusion that Alexander should end like he did.
Q. You said there was nothing in writing between you and Pavelic. But IMRO agents were training Croats at the training camp in Janka Puszta, Hungary.
A. IMRO never ordered its men to be instructors for Croats at Janka Puszta or anywhere else. I can say that with confidence, because if I didn't know that was happening, nobody would have known. If some Macedonian students in Hungary went to the camps, it is not within my knowledge.
Q. Where were you on the day of the assassination?
A. Thirty days or so before the death of the Serbian king, I was in Istanbul. I stayed there for three or four weeks. During that time I realized that Turkey had probably accepted some kind of request from Belgrade to create difficulties for my departure to Western Europe. We had to leave Istanbul, on the advice of the Turkish police, for the town of Kastamonu seeing as how there were lovely woods there - for my wife's health, they told me. As soon as we arrived in Kastamonu, a police officer notified us that King Alexander had been killed in Marseilles. My immediate thought was that the King, who had done everything to complicate my departure for Western Europe, had been struck down by a higher power who prevented him from meddling any more. After we heard this bit of news, we were moved to a place about ten kilometers from Ankara. We lived there for more than two years. Then we were moved to the island of Prinkipo, which is near Istanbul. After about a year there, we finally moved on to Poland, and successively through different countries, five in all, until 1949, when we settled in one of them. The Yugoslav government was highly annoyed by the degree of freedom allowed me, and was even more so when the Turkish government refused to extradite me.
Q. You mention a "higher power." That "higher power" was called Tchernozernsky. And the "death" at Marseilles was a murder.
...
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/pavelic/ap0038.html
The Conspirator Rediscovered
This is an original translation of an article which first appeared in the now-defunct Italian magazine Storia Illustrata in 1990. The fates of Ante Pavelic and the head of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization, Ivan "Vance" Mihailov, are intertwined after the former went into exile in 1929; among Pavelic's first contacts in Vienna was Mihailov's girlfriend. After receiving an invitation to IMRO's headquarters in Banka, Pavelic joined IMRO in a declaration of war against the Royal Yugoslav government, and the Ustase was born. Certain scholars have somehow claimed that the identity of King Alexander's assassin - a Bulgarian "loaned" to the Ustase after two previous bungled assassination attempts ordered by Pavelic - somehow absolves Pavelic and Eugen-Dido Kvaternik of complicity in the crime which they planned. Mihailov's statements on the issue, if they are to be believed, certainly indicate that it was the Ustase, and not IMRO, which planned the assassination in Marseilles. Mihailov's claim to have lived in the NDH is given credence by this document, which alleges that he was staying in the same Vatican hide-out as Pavelic after the war. The interviewer, Antonio Pitamitz, was from the Italian community in Dalmatia and wrote several articles for Storia Illustrata on the subject of Croatian history.
Ivan vančo Mihajlov
THE CONSPIRATOR REDISCOVERED
Between the two wars he led the Macedonian insurrection against Belgrade. Together with Ante Pavelic, he participated in the killing of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia in 1934. And then he disappeared. Storia Illustrata has tracked him down for this exclusive interview: his first since then.
A conversation between Ivan "Vance" Mihailov and Antonio Pitamitz
He was among the most determined enemies, of the first Yugoslavia which was born after the First World War, and of its king, Alexander I Karadjordjevic. And he was the head of one of the most powerful irredentist movements in the Balkans: the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which led the struggle of the Macedonians against the Turks beginning in 1893, and, after 1913, against Serbia which had annexed Macedonia to itself at the expense of Bulgaria after the Balkan wars of 1912-1913 and had imposed with violence the Serb way of life there. In Macedonia, IMRO had a degree of popular support, while its bases were in Bulgaria, where it was strong enough to become a "state within a state" in the 1920s, with agents in the bureaucracy, the army and in the government.
His name is Ivan Mihailov, also known as "Vance," and he led IMRO in the inter-war period. In Serbia he was considered a criminal. The pro-Bulgarian Macedonians of Serbia held him to be their defender against Serb domination. In Bulgaria he was deemed a patriot. Once, in the 1920s, over two hundred lawyers spontaneously offered to defend him when the courts in Sofia discussed prosecuting him for terrorism in absentia. The trial was scuttled.
Mihailov was one of the legendary Balkan revolutionaries of the period, internationally known for his tenacious fight for the liberation of Macedonia from Yugoslavia, often in tandem with Ante Pavelic, head of the Croat nationalist Ustase movement, who had the same goal for Croatia.
Mihailov and Pavelic's struggle against Belgrade was fought by all means at their disposal, including terrorism. Nothing was verboten, including the assassination of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia, killed in Marseilles, France in 1934 by a confidant of Mihailov's, "lent" to Pavelic's Croat Ustase who had condemned King Alexander back in 1928 after the killing Croat leader Stjepan Radic in parliament by a Montenegrin MP, a chauvinist Serb with ties to the Royal Court. Wounded by police and lynched by the enraged mob, Mihailov's agent took the secret of his identity to his grave. He went down in history as one Peter Kelemann - the last of the many aliases he used to stay one step ahead of the European police, among which was his own true name which was made public by the Bulgarian police. The Marseilles assassination made Europe fear for another Sarajevo. Fascist Italy and Horthy's Hungary, where the Ustase had training camps for their followers, were tangled up in the controversy. As it occurred at the precise moment when Mussolini was attempting a rapprochement with France (the ally of Yugoslavia), the shadow of Hitler's Germany also stretched as far as Marseilles.
But Mihailov disappeared from the scene after 1934, when Bulgarian military forces seized power in Sofia and outlawed by IMRO and its legal front, the Macedonian Revolutionary Committee. Not even the turmoil of World War II and the post-war chaos, which in the Balkans led to the tragic rendering of accounts between Croats and the pro-Bulgarian Macedonians with the Serbs, drew Mihailov back into the public eye. Many thought he was dead. Instead, Mihailov has been living for more than forty years in a Western European city, where we tracked him down.
This is the first interview Mihailov has given since the assassination in Marseilles, exclusively for Storia Illustrata. Now ninety-three years old, grown used to a life of conspiracy, he answered us in a slow, drawn manner, alternating between half-admissions and bold assertions - like the accomplished Balkan revolutionary that he is.
Q. Mr. Mihailov, let's start with the Marseilles attack. The assassin of King Alexander I of Yugoslavia was one of your men. He was positively identified by the French police as Peter Kelemann, which was one of his many aliases. What was his real name?
A. His true identity was made public by the Bulgarian police. That was Vladimir "Vlado" Gheorghiev Tchernozernsky. To me and our other companions, he had only been "Vlado."
Q. Between yourself and Ante Pavelic's Ustase there was a "coordinated action pact," both anti-Serb and anti-Yugoslav. When you "lent" Tchernozernsky to Pavelic, did you know what he would be used for?
A. A written and signed pact for a common struggle between the Macedonians and the Croats did not exist and it never has. But there was - and there still is - the same state of defense and attack against the actions and machinations of the Serbs at the expense of the Croats and the Bulgarians in Macedonia. Self-preservation is a powerful instinct. When the Serbs shot Croat MPs in the parliament, Ante Pavelic presented himself to me a few days later, as if by instinct, as a guest of the Macedonian exiles in Sofia and was welcomed with a genuine camaraderie. It was then that the Macedonian exiles and Pavelic together announced to the whole world that we would march together against Serbian tyranny. Immediately afterwards, Belgrade condemned Pavelic to death. You have to remember, Pavelic did not come to an agreement with IMRO but with the legal Macedonian National Committee, which included important people, people who were members of the Bulgarian parliament.
Q. You have not answered the question. Did you know what action Tchernozernsky was to undertake?
A. Tchernozernsky was placed at the disposal of Pavelic and the Croats for any activity directed against Yugoslavia, of course within the confines of the common fight for the liberation of our peoples from Belgrade's grip. King Alexander was one of the possible objectives.
Q. Did you discuss the death of Alexander with Pavelic?
A. Between Pavelic and myself there was no specific talk of the assassination. But for us it was a natural conclusion that Alexander should end like he did.
Q. You said there was nothing in writing between you and Pavelic. But IMRO agents were training Croats at the training camp in Janka Puszta, Hungary.
A. IMRO never ordered its men to be instructors for Croats at Janka Puszta or anywhere else. I can say that with confidence, because if I didn't know that was happening, nobody would have known. If some Macedonian students in Hungary went to the camps, it is not within my knowledge.
Q. Where were you on the day of the assassination?
A. Thirty days or so before the death of the Serbian king, I was in Istanbul. I stayed there for three or four weeks. During that time I realized that Turkey had probably accepted some kind of request from Belgrade to create difficulties for my departure to Western Europe. We had to leave Istanbul, on the advice of the Turkish police, for the town of Kastamonu seeing as how there were lovely woods there - for my wife's health, they told me. As soon as we arrived in Kastamonu, a police officer notified us that King Alexander had been killed in Marseilles. My immediate thought was that the King, who had done everything to complicate my departure for Western Europe, had been struck down by a higher power who prevented him from meddling any more. After we heard this bit of news, we were moved to a place about ten kilometers from Ankara. We lived there for more than two years. Then we were moved to the island of Prinkipo, which is near Istanbul. After about a year there, we finally moved on to Poland, and successively through different countries, five in all, until 1949, when we settled in one of them. The Yugoslav government was highly annoyed by the degree of freedom allowed me, and was even more so when the Turkish government refused to extradite me.
Q. You mention a "higher power." That "higher power" was called Tchernozernsky. And the "death" at Marseilles was a murder.
...
Poslednja izmena:
nastavak
A. I have already had occasion to write that the act of Vlado Tchernozernsky cannot be called a murder. That was clear to anyone that knew anything about King Alexander's regime and the conspiracies devised by them. Vlado was the instrument of the punishment decreed by the curses, the rivers of tears and blood of the Macedonians, Croats, Albanians and other city and country-folk of Yugoslavia, including many Serbs. The Macedonians and the majority of other Yugoslav nationalities rejoiced at the news of the Serbian king's punishment. My mother, who lived in Serbia, got my brother to take her to Belgrade to take a look at the pistol used in the act, which was on display in a museum. Looking at it there, she cried, "May his hand flower!" Obviously, her blessing was on he who had killed the king, not on the king himself. Behind the killing of Alexander there are innumerable crimes done by the king and his advisors. As to the Serbian people, I don't have anything against them.
Q. One of the theories behind the Marseilles assassination, unproven on a documentary basis, is that Nazi Germany was behind it all. Is there any truth to this?
A. Quite a few years ago, the Macedonian Tribune, the journal of our people in America, denied the report in a newspaper which stated that I had met a German in Paris to approve the assassination of Alexander. I don't remember all the details they invented. I don't know who forwarded that lie, nor why they did so now. I never met any German in Paris or anyplace else. I never had a discussion like the one you mention. Since 1912, during the First Balkan War, when he entered Skopje after the Turks' withdrawal, Alexander Karadjordjevic - who was then still Crown Prince - gave proof of his atrocious character and his occupier's mentality in front of the entire population and important people representing all the nationalities of Macedonia.
It was then that a small child, a girl, welcomed him in the name of the people. Alexander asked her, who are you? The girl answered: a Bulgarian. Alexander Karadjordjevic slapped her.
That gesture, shameful and tragic, was the first in a long series of moral and material abuses, humiliations, continuous attempts to enforce a Serbian way of life on the Bulgarian population of Vardar Macedonia. IMRO was the only moral and material force among the Macedonian people. IMRO was able to reach as far as the Belgrade office of the highest representative of Serbian terror against the Macedonians, Jika Lasic. One of his lieutenants, whom he trusted, shot him behind his desk. He survived, and when the Communists came to power they gave him a lifetime pension for his services to Serbianism. Unable to justify a terrorist regime, the Serbs decided that it was not they who were the criminals, but whoever opposed them. In a spirit of vengeance, Serbian police killed my father and my brother, who were the most pacific of people in the village of Stip. In response, I told a journalist that IMRO would never sink to that level of the Serbian intelligentsia which justified the murder of so many Macedonians. Never.
Q. It has been historically proven that Pavelic's Ustase movement was supported by the Italian government. Did the Macedonians have a similar arrangement?
A. IMRO was supported by our people, and sometimes - though rarely - by the diaspora. I never saw or heard of any assistance given to IMRO by Bulgaria or any other state. IMRO never had any bases in Italy as the Croats did. I personally had no connection or any contact with Mussolini or his government.
Q. Macedonian independence, like Croatian independence, meant the disintegration of Yugoslavia, which was a triumph for Mussolini's vision of the Balkans. Wasn't this what you also wanted?
A. The destruction of Yugoslavia was the ardent desire of all peoples illegally annexed to it, except the Serbs.
Q. After the attack by Italians and Germans in 1941, Macedonia was annexed to Bulgaria. But the victory of the partisans of Tito meant that Macedonia remained in Yugoslavia. It became a federated republic. For the first time since the liberation from the Turkish yoke, the Macedonians have their own state. The old "Macedonian Question" has been solved. Wouldn't you agree that occasional irredentist references to Macedonia by Bulgarians - especially among academic circles - are historically out of place now?
A. The Bulgarians in Macedonia, the majority in that country, wish for either an independent Macedonia along the lines of Switzerland, or the outright reunification with Bulgaria. They are the majority. However, Bulgarians in Macedonia have always invited the minorities to fight for an independent Macedonian state. I approve of one of these solutions. Not one of the minorities in Yugoslavia ever wanted or fought for the Yugoslav state. The Yugoslav nationality doesn't exist and never has. But, on the other hand, different nationalities with centuries of history behind them still exist: among them, the Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Bosnjaks, Romanians, Montenegrins, and so on.
Tito was dispatched to Yugoslavia to assume a role imposed from the outside. The latest events certainly testify to this. With regard to the Bulgarian Macedonians, they are not only in the frontiers of today's Yugoslavia. There are just as many who have left for Bulgaria, and at least three hundred thousand in Pirin Macedonia, more in America and Australia and elsewhere. So the Bulgarian academics are not being recidivist or archaic. To the contrary: they are in the middle of current events, by addressing Macedonia.
After 1945, when the Bulgarians in Macedonia realized that they were going to remain under Belgrade, a group of mainly secondary school students prepared - in secret, of course - a petition to the United Nations demanding an independent Macedonia. They were discovered and arrested. They were condemned to six to fourteen years in prison for it. To continue in imposing Serbian culture on the Bulgarians, the Communist regime created a "Macedonian language" and a "Macedonian nationality." This was derided by French sociologist Guy Heraud in 1966 as "non-existent and created to confused people."
Q. Others have written that within IMRO, you were the leader of the nationalist wing, opposing the faction favorable to Bulgaria's absorption with the Soviet Union. This bitter conflict ended with you killing the other faction's leader, General Alexander Protogerov.
A. No factions of this kind existed within IMRO. Protogerov had the same rank as I did in the central committee. He was ambitious for power, both in IMRO and in the country, but he wasn't a revolutionary. He was too manipulative. At a certain point he was in fact isolated from all political and military decisions within the central committee of IMRO. He had no idea of what we were doing until he read them in the newspapers. Protogerov was disciplined because he was responsible on his own for killing Todor Alexandrov, who had been one of IMRO's supporters. And I didn't kill Protogerov, I ordered his elimination.
Q. It's plain to see that Bulgaria didn't go the way you wanted, in that it became a Communist country. Because of that, Bulgarian nationalism in Macedonia has been defeated. This is also a defeat for you and your ideas, don't you think?
A. I have not been sidelined by history. I am living in the free world and I have always worked for my people. Communism was imposed, as you very well know. It was imposed by force on our freedom loving people like all others. If anything must be sidelined by history it is Communism. In America we have organizations which continue to fight for an independent Macedonia, who acknowledge our Bulgarian nationality.
Q. After the war, your name appeared often in publications about the Balkans and about European history. But nobody knew what happened to you. Many thought you were dead. How did you survive, and where did you go?
A. I was in Poland for a year before the war. I myself saw the Germans enter Warsaw. I distinctly remember hearing Hitler's praise for the Polish soldiers. After that, I went to Hungary. After Croatia's independence, I was a guest of my old colleagues there. I remained in Croatia until the end of the war. Late in the war, the Germans suggested placing me at the head of an independent Macedonian state. I did go to Skopje, but I refused, because I did not want to bear responsibility for the incredible bloodshed which would occur with Communism on the verge of taking over. The Germans didn't really like hearing that answer, but individually I think they knew that I had done right by my people. We all saw how many innocent victims Communism caused after the war.
Q. The struggle you headed, with an emphasis on terrorism, preoccupied Bulgaria and Yugoslav Macedonia for years. But it had no result. Today, some years later, what is your opinion of terrorism, of all terrorism?
A. You're saying that terrorist acts against the occupiers were fruitless. But in many parts of the world today, groups are still devoted to a terrorist strategy to further their aims. By terrorist acts there are many who are merely trying to keep attention focused on national or political questions. A specific struggle can in fact be sustained for a long time by different types of propaganda. But IMRO never resorted to terrorism. IMRO punished those who erred individually.
[Translation note: Mihailov was of the opinion that "Bulgarians" are indistinguishable from "Macedonians" and often uses the two words interchangably when referring to the people of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The terms "Bulgarians in Macedonia," "pro-Bulgarian Macedonian" and "Macedonians" have been used accordingly, depending upon the context.]
A. I have already had occasion to write that the act of Vlado Tchernozernsky cannot be called a murder. That was clear to anyone that knew anything about King Alexander's regime and the conspiracies devised by them. Vlado was the instrument of the punishment decreed by the curses, the rivers of tears and blood of the Macedonians, Croats, Albanians and other city and country-folk of Yugoslavia, including many Serbs. The Macedonians and the majority of other Yugoslav nationalities rejoiced at the news of the Serbian king's punishment. My mother, who lived in Serbia, got my brother to take her to Belgrade to take a look at the pistol used in the act, which was on display in a museum. Looking at it there, she cried, "May his hand flower!" Obviously, her blessing was on he who had killed the king, not on the king himself. Behind the killing of Alexander there are innumerable crimes done by the king and his advisors. As to the Serbian people, I don't have anything against them.
Q. One of the theories behind the Marseilles assassination, unproven on a documentary basis, is that Nazi Germany was behind it all. Is there any truth to this?
A. Quite a few years ago, the Macedonian Tribune, the journal of our people in America, denied the report in a newspaper which stated that I had met a German in Paris to approve the assassination of Alexander. I don't remember all the details they invented. I don't know who forwarded that lie, nor why they did so now. I never met any German in Paris or anyplace else. I never had a discussion like the one you mention. Since 1912, during the First Balkan War, when he entered Skopje after the Turks' withdrawal, Alexander Karadjordjevic - who was then still Crown Prince - gave proof of his atrocious character and his occupier's mentality in front of the entire population and important people representing all the nationalities of Macedonia.
It was then that a small child, a girl, welcomed him in the name of the people. Alexander asked her, who are you? The girl answered: a Bulgarian. Alexander Karadjordjevic slapped her.
That gesture, shameful and tragic, was the first in a long series of moral and material abuses, humiliations, continuous attempts to enforce a Serbian way of life on the Bulgarian population of Vardar Macedonia. IMRO was the only moral and material force among the Macedonian people. IMRO was able to reach as far as the Belgrade office of the highest representative of Serbian terror against the Macedonians, Jika Lasic. One of his lieutenants, whom he trusted, shot him behind his desk. He survived, and when the Communists came to power they gave him a lifetime pension for his services to Serbianism. Unable to justify a terrorist regime, the Serbs decided that it was not they who were the criminals, but whoever opposed them. In a spirit of vengeance, Serbian police killed my father and my brother, who were the most pacific of people in the village of Stip. In response, I told a journalist that IMRO would never sink to that level of the Serbian intelligentsia which justified the murder of so many Macedonians. Never.
Q. It has been historically proven that Pavelic's Ustase movement was supported by the Italian government. Did the Macedonians have a similar arrangement?
A. IMRO was supported by our people, and sometimes - though rarely - by the diaspora. I never saw or heard of any assistance given to IMRO by Bulgaria or any other state. IMRO never had any bases in Italy as the Croats did. I personally had no connection or any contact with Mussolini or his government.
Q. Macedonian independence, like Croatian independence, meant the disintegration of Yugoslavia, which was a triumph for Mussolini's vision of the Balkans. Wasn't this what you also wanted?
A. The destruction of Yugoslavia was the ardent desire of all peoples illegally annexed to it, except the Serbs.
Q. After the attack by Italians and Germans in 1941, Macedonia was annexed to Bulgaria. But the victory of the partisans of Tito meant that Macedonia remained in Yugoslavia. It became a federated republic. For the first time since the liberation from the Turkish yoke, the Macedonians have their own state. The old "Macedonian Question" has been solved. Wouldn't you agree that occasional irredentist references to Macedonia by Bulgarians - especially among academic circles - are historically out of place now?
A. The Bulgarians in Macedonia, the majority in that country, wish for either an independent Macedonia along the lines of Switzerland, or the outright reunification with Bulgaria. They are the majority. However, Bulgarians in Macedonia have always invited the minorities to fight for an independent Macedonian state. I approve of one of these solutions. Not one of the minorities in Yugoslavia ever wanted or fought for the Yugoslav state. The Yugoslav nationality doesn't exist and never has. But, on the other hand, different nationalities with centuries of history behind them still exist: among them, the Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians, Bosnjaks, Romanians, Montenegrins, and so on.
Tito was dispatched to Yugoslavia to assume a role imposed from the outside. The latest events certainly testify to this. With regard to the Bulgarian Macedonians, they are not only in the frontiers of today's Yugoslavia. There are just as many who have left for Bulgaria, and at least three hundred thousand in Pirin Macedonia, more in America and Australia and elsewhere. So the Bulgarian academics are not being recidivist or archaic. To the contrary: they are in the middle of current events, by addressing Macedonia.
After 1945, when the Bulgarians in Macedonia realized that they were going to remain under Belgrade, a group of mainly secondary school students prepared - in secret, of course - a petition to the United Nations demanding an independent Macedonia. They were discovered and arrested. They were condemned to six to fourteen years in prison for it. To continue in imposing Serbian culture on the Bulgarians, the Communist regime created a "Macedonian language" and a "Macedonian nationality." This was derided by French sociologist Guy Heraud in 1966 as "non-existent and created to confused people."
Q. Others have written that within IMRO, you were the leader of the nationalist wing, opposing the faction favorable to Bulgaria's absorption with the Soviet Union. This bitter conflict ended with you killing the other faction's leader, General Alexander Protogerov.
A. No factions of this kind existed within IMRO. Protogerov had the same rank as I did in the central committee. He was ambitious for power, both in IMRO and in the country, but he wasn't a revolutionary. He was too manipulative. At a certain point he was in fact isolated from all political and military decisions within the central committee of IMRO. He had no idea of what we were doing until he read them in the newspapers. Protogerov was disciplined because he was responsible on his own for killing Todor Alexandrov, who had been one of IMRO's supporters. And I didn't kill Protogerov, I ordered his elimination.
Q. It's plain to see that Bulgaria didn't go the way you wanted, in that it became a Communist country. Because of that, Bulgarian nationalism in Macedonia has been defeated. This is also a defeat for you and your ideas, don't you think?
A. I have not been sidelined by history. I am living in the free world and I have always worked for my people. Communism was imposed, as you very well know. It was imposed by force on our freedom loving people like all others. If anything must be sidelined by history it is Communism. In America we have organizations which continue to fight for an independent Macedonia, who acknowledge our Bulgarian nationality.
Q. After the war, your name appeared often in publications about the Balkans and about European history. But nobody knew what happened to you. Many thought you were dead. How did you survive, and where did you go?
A. I was in Poland for a year before the war. I myself saw the Germans enter Warsaw. I distinctly remember hearing Hitler's praise for the Polish soldiers. After that, I went to Hungary. After Croatia's independence, I was a guest of my old colleagues there. I remained in Croatia until the end of the war. Late in the war, the Germans suggested placing me at the head of an independent Macedonian state. I did go to Skopje, but I refused, because I did not want to bear responsibility for the incredible bloodshed which would occur with Communism on the verge of taking over. The Germans didn't really like hearing that answer, but individually I think they knew that I had done right by my people. We all saw how many innocent victims Communism caused after the war.
Q. The struggle you headed, with an emphasis on terrorism, preoccupied Bulgaria and Yugoslav Macedonia for years. But it had no result. Today, some years later, what is your opinion of terrorism, of all terrorism?
A. You're saying that terrorist acts against the occupiers were fruitless. But in many parts of the world today, groups are still devoted to a terrorist strategy to further their aims. By terrorist acts there are many who are merely trying to keep attention focused on national or political questions. A specific struggle can in fact be sustained for a long time by different types of propaganda. But IMRO never resorted to terrorism. IMRO punished those who erred individually.
[Translation note: Mihailov was of the opinion that "Bulgarians" are indistinguishable from "Macedonians" and often uses the two words interchangably when referring to the people of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. The terms "Bulgarians in Macedonia," "pro-Bulgarian Macedonian" and "Macedonians" have been used accordingly, depending upon the context.]
Сваки данашњи народ Балкана је скуп различитих група различитог порекла. И наравно, има ту преклапања колко хоћеш. Границе међу један скуп групица и други скуп групица више резултат неке политичке конфигурације модерног доба. Идентитет више долази од старијих ствари од националног роматизма 19 (и 20-ог) века, т.ј. православље, те језик, затим регионалне специфичности..
Факат је да Срби, Бугари и Македонци, можда рецимо немају идентичну генетску мапу, али свакако имају исту, неку византиску идеолошку-културну основу, те су разлике се своди првенствено на разлика диалеката, које су наравно повезане. И због тога, Срба нема у Бугарској, Бугари и Македонци једва да има у Србији и њихов број је експоненцијално мањи након сваког пописа као што се уосталом дешава и са бројем Срба у Македонији. Једноставно нема довољно разлике. Ово није исто са банатским Бугарима који (успут нису они тамо 1,000 година већ из 18 века) зато што су они махом католици, те би вероватније било да се асимилирају у Хрвате, али је онда језик сувише различит, те остају оно што су били.
Ја сам ето рецимо чисти Македонац, али зато сва моја родбину у Србију су чисти Срби, као и сва моја родбину у Бугарској су чисти Бугари.
- Poruka
- 11.573
Ne postoje nekoliko verzija istine...Postoji samo jedna,ona koju su ti ljudi napisali u ustavu svoje organizacije 1925.
Pisi kao sto govoris,citaj kao sto pise...
ВМРО-(Обединета) 1925
Програм - члан 5
5) Да се разоткриваат и да води непоштедна борба против предавниците Македонци
што му се ставиле во услуга на бугарскиот, српскиот и грчкиот империјализам
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To sto vama ne odgovara nikako ne moze promenit istinu da su se Makedonci borili protiv Srba,bugara i grka...
Mozete samo da kukate za propustenom sansom sto nas niste sve unistili...jedino i to radite vas nekoliko ovde...
Pomirite se sa cinjenicom da smo vas oterali i da smo slobodni...
- Poruka
- 11.573
Гарвански масакр
3 март 1923
Списак убијених
1 Атанас Колев 13 години
2 Богатин Георгиев 23 години
3 Васил Симеонов 27 години
4 Георги Донев 31 години
5 Георги Милев 32 години
6 Димитрија Колев 37 години
7 Димит'р Иванов 41години
8 Доне Василев 29 години
9 Ефрем Трајанов 30 години
10 Ефтим Петрушев 20 години
11 Иван Василев 35 години
12 Костадин Здравев 18 години
13 Костадин Цветков 31 години
14 Мите Здравев 19 години
15 Моне Василев 12 години
16 Тане Иванов 50 години
17 Пане Коцев 28 години
18 Петре Георгиев 40 години
19 Петруш Атанасов 21 години
20 Петруш А. Велјанов 35 години
21 Петруш Иванов 47 години
22 Стевко Трајанов 39 години
23 Стое Коцев 34 години
24 Стојан Филипов 25 години
25 Тасе Ефтимов 52 години
26 Трајан Тасев 23 години
27 Христоман Поцев 57 години
28 јане Поцев 59 години
29 Цвета Томева 65 години
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Људи су убијени од стране Српских власти на суров начин
Повод је била одмазда због убијених Срба/Колониста који су хтели да се населе у околини Свети Николе али су их спречиле Комите и извршиле убиства.
Дакле Срби су виршили колонизацију насилно по свакој мери...
Не оправдавам поступке убијања никако,али из овога се види да је била велика нетрпељивост Македонаца и Срба у то време.
Поготово Срба према Македонцима и осталим народима у Македонији које су хтели да потисну и да србизују и населе Македонију србима...
3 март 1923
Списак убијених
1 Атанас Колев 13 години
2 Богатин Георгиев 23 години
3 Васил Симеонов 27 години
4 Георги Донев 31 години
5 Георги Милев 32 години
6 Димитрија Колев 37 години
7 Димит'р Иванов 41години
8 Доне Василев 29 години
9 Ефрем Трајанов 30 години
10 Ефтим Петрушев 20 години
11 Иван Василев 35 години
12 Костадин Здравев 18 години
13 Костадин Цветков 31 години
14 Мите Здравев 19 години
15 Моне Василев 12 години
16 Тане Иванов 50 години
17 Пане Коцев 28 години
18 Петре Георгиев 40 години
19 Петруш Атанасов 21 години
20 Петруш А. Велјанов 35 години
21 Петруш Иванов 47 години
22 Стевко Трајанов 39 години
23 Стое Коцев 34 години
24 Стојан Филипов 25 години
25 Тасе Ефтимов 52 години
26 Трајан Тасев 23 години
27 Христоман Поцев 57 години
28 јане Поцев 59 години
29 Цвета Томева 65 години
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Људи су убијени од стране Српских власти на суров начин
Повод је била одмазда због убијених Срба/Колониста који су хтели да се населе у околини Свети Николе али су их спречиле Комите и извршиле убиства.
Дакле Срби су виршили колонизацију насилно по свакој мери...
Не оправдавам поступке убијања никако,али из овога се види да је била велика нетрпељивост Македонаца и Срба у то време.
Поготово Срба према Македонцима и осталим народима у Македонији које су хтели да потисну и да србизују и населе Македонију србима...
Poslednja izmena:
Babunski
Aktivan član
- Poruka
- 1.756
Братко, опет пружаш полуинформације. Из приложеног списка се види да су сви, осим прве особе на списку, могли да пруже оружани отпор. Покушаваш да то прикажеш као да су побијени невини цивили. Сумњам. Пре ће бити да је барем велика већина њих, ако не и сви, била група оружаних побуњеника. Прво, колонизација није вршена само Србима. Они, међутим, јесу били у већини. Земља која је дељена народ су је некада припадала Турцима који су имали своје чифлике (или чифлаке). Дакле, ником ништа није било отето. Друго, то је било у склопу аграрне реформе. Ти људи нису довођени само на просторе данашње Македоније него је пресељења било по свим крајевима Краљевине. Земља је, између осталог, дељена и локалном становништву у Македонији. У Прилепу је, на пример, подељено преко 1000 хектара земље сиромашнима и породицама жртава бугарских зверстава (дакле, може да се предпостави, локалним Јужносрбијанцима). Треће, ти дајеш легитимитет бугарашким комитама, а 1923. они су били хајдучија. Ама баш ниједан народни посланик са простора тадашње Јужне Србије (а сви су били локално становништво бирано од народа!) није се побунио против насељавања живља на напуштену земљу. Четврто, није било никакве нетрпељивости између Македонаца и Срба него између власти која је бранила правни поредак и бугарске хајдучије. Нико ко је поштовао законе није у Краљевини Југославији био прогањан. Поготово не Македонци, тадашњи Јужносрбијанци. Зашто би Срби прогањали сопствени народ? То би било ван сваке памети... Дакле, није било потребно да се простори Македоније насељавају Србима, јер су на њима већ у великом броју живели Срби, које ти, нажалост, називаш непостојећом категоријом „сърбоман“. Та „колонизација“ није била масовна. Ради се о не више од 20-30000 становника. Сувише мала цифра да би се говорило о некој „србизацији“.
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- 28.921
Нема овде ни М од Македонаца, прво су бугараши у Македонији преко своје терористичке организације ВМРО сравнили србско село Кадрифаково са земљом и убили 23 особе србске припадности( то ваљда није сурово) да би србске власти исто тако сурово казнили извришиоце тог чина који су махом долазили из бугарског села Гавран.
Babunski
Aktivan član
- Poruka
- 1.756
У време догађаја, радило се о властима Краљевине Срба, Хрвата и Словенаца, не само о српским властима.
- Poruka
- 11.573
Sto su se ti Srbi naseljavali tamo? Sto su zeleli da nasele tudju zemlju?
Mozes ti da napises jos 10000 puta Bugari,bugari.....nista ti nece pomoci u tome da ste ubijali i maltretirali narod u Makedoniji i da ste pokusali da sve srbizujete.
Opet kazem,nije vam uspelo i sada vam je krivo..
- Poruka
- 28.921
Наравно.
Санди ајде ти млеко благо мени па у кревет, гледај да бар то млеко не буде неко бугарско.
- Poruka
- 11.573
Kada je Makedonija podeljena izmedju srba,grka i bugara, Makedonci u dijaspori su pokusali preko velikih sila (pre svega Rusije) da izdejstvuju nezavisnu Makedoniju.
U toj borbi su izdate mnoge knjige,proglasi i molbe...Evo jedne..
1913, Санкт Петерсбург
- "ПОЛИТИЧКИ ПРЕГЛЕД МАКЕДОНИЈЕ И МАКЕДОНАЦА“
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Ova knjiga se bavi i istorijom Makedonaca napisana od samih Makedonaca kao i trazenje za Nezavisnu Makedoniju i slobodu za Makedonski narod.
Molim pojedince da ne placu zbog ovoga i da se pomire sa cinjenicama da smo se uvek borili protiv srba i njihovih prijatelja bugara i grka za slobou.
Na vasu zalost kroz vreme se ne mozete vratiti i sve unistiti.
Pomirite se sa time da ste izgubili bitku i da su mnogi zivoti bili uzaludno izglubljeni tada sa vase strane..
U toj borbi su izdate mnoge knjige,proglasi i molbe...Evo jedne..
1913, Санкт Петерсбург
- "ПОЛИТИЧКИ ПРЕГЛЕД МАКЕДОНИЈЕ И МАКЕДОНАЦА“
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Ova knjiga se bavi i istorijom Makedonaca napisana od samih Makedonaca kao i trazenje za Nezavisnu Makedoniju i slobodu za Makedonski narod.
Molim pojedince da ne placu zbog ovoga i da se pomire sa cinjenicama da smo se uvek borili protiv srba i njihovih prijatelja bugara i grka za slobou.
Na vasu zalost kroz vreme se ne mozete vratiti i sve unistiti.
Pomirite se sa time da ste izgubili bitku i da su mnogi zivoti bili uzaludno izglubljeni tada sa vase strane..
Poslednja izmena:
Babunski
Aktivan član
- Poruka
- 1.756
Kada je Makedonija podeljena izmedju srba,grka i bugara, Makedonci u dijaspori su pokusali preko velikih sila (pre svega Rusije) da izdejstvuju nezavisnu Makedoniju.
U toj borbi su izdate mnoge knjige,proglasi i molbe...Evo jedne..
1913, Санкт Петерсбург
- "ПОЛИТИЧКИ ПРЕГЛЕД МАКЕДОНИЈЕ И МАКЕДОНАЦА“
--------
Ova knjiga se bavi i istorijom Makedonaca napisana od samih Makedonaca kao i trazenje za Nezavisnu Makedoniju i slobodu za Makedonski narod.
Molim pojedince da ne placu zbog ovoga i da se pomire sa cinjenicama da smo se uvek borili protiv srba i njihovih prijatelja bugara i grka za slobou.
Na vasu zalost kroz vreme se ne mozete vratiti i sve unistiti.
Pomirite se sa time da ste izgubili bitku i da su mnogi zivoti bili uzaludno izglubljeni tada sa vase strane..
Данас у Србији пишу разне Кандићке и Би-серко, али то није никакав доказ о политичкој вољи народа. На слободним парламентарним изборима највише гласова за Скупштину Краљевине, у окрузима данашње Македоније добијале су Радикална странка и Демократска странка, а потом следи странка Џемијет (арнаутско-турска). Када се изузму гласови дати странци Џемијет, број гласова дат радикалима и демократама био је врло сличан са србијанским гласачким телом. Демократе су биле популарније у Македонији, радикали у Србији. Поставља се питање, зашто су у данашњој Македонији гласали за две странке које су биле најпопуларније у Србији, а не за, на пример, Хрватску сељачку странку или неку другу политичку опцију? На изборима су учествовале многобројне странке, да поменем Инвалидску странку, Црногорску федералистичку, Румунску, Немачку, Киријаџијску... Као што видиш било је и странака које су се већ својим именом декларисале за корените промене државног система и види се јасно да су странке заступале различите народне интересе. Да су хтели, грађани су могли да организују и Македонску странку и да добију представнике у народној скупштини. Међутим, нису, не због тога што нису смели, него због тога што није постојала политичка воља.
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Christoff
Početnik
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Sandanski opet pokazuje sta su pisali Cupovski i njegova kompanija od 6 ljudi, jedan od kojh je Nace Dimov, brat Cupovskog.
To su ruski placenici i niko u Makedoniji nije znao o nima.
Da napominjem da i oni placu o zarvorene skole /a svi znamo da bile bugarski/, priznaju da samo Pirinska Makedonija bila oslobodjena.
Vidi slika na 7 str.
Makedonci stradale samo kad manifestirale bugarstinu.
Ustav VMRO /ob/ je na bugarskom jeziku, makedonski narod do 1934 g. je kao svajcarski narod. To je dokumentirano.
Mihail Smatrakalev je objasnio kad i kako se rodila ideja o postojanje makedonske nacije. Oni aktivno radili o transformaciju makedonskih Bugara u Makedonce posle rezolucije Kominterne /1934/.
Stari stari komunisti, drugovi K. Racina to ne primili.
Sta znaci Makedonac objasnile sami Makedonci
To su ruski placenici i niko u Makedoniji nije znao o nima.
Da napominjem da i oni placu o zarvorene skole /a svi znamo da bile bugarski/, priznaju da samo Pirinska Makedonija bila oslobodjena.
Vidi slika na 7 str.
Makedonci stradale samo kad manifestirale bugarstinu.
Ustav VMRO /ob/ je na bugarskom jeziku, makedonski narod do 1934 g. je kao svajcarski narod. To je dokumentirano.
Mihail Smatrakalev je objasnio kad i kako se rodila ideja o postojanje makedonske nacije. Oni aktivno radili o transformaciju makedonskih Bugara u Makedonce posle rezolucije Kominterne /1934/.
Stari stari komunisti, drugovi K. Racina to ne primili.
Sta znaci Makedonac objasnile sami Makedonci
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Срби већ увелико живе тамо давно пре тога, уласком те територије у састав прво краљевине Србије, што је кратко трајало, па у састав СХС, долази још Срба и насељавају опустелу земљу.( колега Бабунски каже не више од 30 000 што и није нека србизација)
Довољно је то што су се они сматрали за Бугаре а не неке нововековне античке Македонце.
Па ја чекам да видим то убијање и малтретирање међутим све је то танко.
Није нам успело да Срби тамо остану и данас Срби, само што то значи да није проблем у преосталим Србима већ у овим другима, који нису моја брига.
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Znam da ti ne odgovara sta Makedonci misle i sta su mislili,volis sta kazu bugari jer si bugarofil...Al to je tvoj problem...
Makedonci su jasno pricali sta zele i da mrze na prvom mestu bugare pa onda srbe..I uvek ce mrzeti bugare,koljace Makedonskog naroda.Al to je druga tema..
Toliko vas i sada ima...Koliko vas je bilo pre kraljevine i zavreme kraljevine toliko vas ima i sada...manje-vise za koju hiljadu
Babunski
Aktivan član
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Опет причаш бајке. Досељеници су се населили на напуштену земљу у мале сеоске заједнице највише у околину Валандова, Ђевђелије и Неготина. Данас у тим крајевима живи тек око 2000 Срба. Хоћемо ли да отворимо нову тему и почнемо да дискутујемо о насилном македонизирању српског становништва у време комунизма па до дана данашњег? Много читаш те бугарске читанке. Моја предпоставка о не више о 30000 колониста је била базирана на твојој мапи која показује број породица као и све крајеве истока Краљевине СХС и била је груба, само да укажем да и тако увећана цифра није сигурно била довољна да се изврши нека "србизација". Како објашњаваш чињеницу да у врло великом броју македонских села, тамо где није било колониста, на попису има изјашњених Срба? У већини прилепских села, на пример.
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i dalje places zbog ispustene sanse? Bas lepo...nastavi da places i otvaraj nove teme...
Bas mi je drago kada nas velicas i od nas pravis takvu silu da smo razbucali Srbe u Makedoniji i unistili ih sistemski i nekim presijama.
Christoff
Početnik
- Poruka
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Sve mi odgovara, jer tvoi Makedonci su 7 ljudi, placeni Rusijom, a moi su VMORO i VMRO.
To ti hoces, ali ovde pricamo o istoriji. Makedonci su jasno deklarirali svoju bugarsku pripadnost.
Sve jos ne si pokazao neki etnicki Makedonac koj je stradao u SHS.
Babunski
Aktivan član
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Christoff, Који су то Македонци који су у време Краљевине СХС јасно декларисали своју бугарску припадност? Неколико терориста. Са тим баш не би могао да се дичиш. Овде је Сандански у праву. Неће он тако, него су историјске чињенице такве какве су. Бугарски утицај на овим просторима завршио се после 1. Св. рата. Бугарска војска је починила бројне злочине од убистава и силовања до паљевина и пљачки. Поставља се логично питање ако су Македонци били „Бугари“ како то да су Бугари починили толике злочине над њима? Између осталог тврдиш да Македонци нису постојали у време Краљевинe СХС. Ја тврдиим да јесу, али да су се осећали делом српског етноса, а да је име означавало њихову територијалну припадност попут Херцеговаца, Шумадинаца итд. И они који су били бугараши, када су видели шта се издешавало, престали су то да буду. Српска восјка, насупрот томе, односила се према овдашњем становништву, а тако и осећала, као према делу свог народа. У току балканских ратова народу је дељено наоружање да се придруже борби противу турских окупатора. Инциденти према локалном становништву били су готово непостојећи. Ево ти једне илустрације...
Француски новинар Анри Барби објавио је још за време ратова занимљиву причу која би сваком читаоцу са предубеђењем деловала шокантно. Барби сведочи о свом сусрету са поручником Џафером Диром, припадником османске војске, а српским добровољцем из рата са Бугарском 1913. године.
Барби је упитао Џафера: „Зашто сте се тукли за Србију?“ Поручник је одмах одговорио: „Јер су Срби правични, поштени и искрени колико и храбри, док су Бугари лажљивци, ниткови, лопови. Срби су нам свуда поштовали имање и част. Бугари су нас пљачкали и убијали. И ја сам сâм крајем децембра месеца био њихова жртва. Четири Бугарина насилно су ми упали у кућу и однели где је што било [...] Шта би доиста било од нас да су Срби били побеђени? За неколико година и ми и Срби морали би ишчезнути. Борио сам се за своју слободу и за нашу заједничку слободу“. Човек је у три реченице све рекао...
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Тврдње да су Македонци Бугари на основу неколицине бугаризованих под насиљем бугарске егзархије је смешна. Чак је бугараш Марко Цепенков у својим мемоарима написао како је од страних језика већ знао бугарски па је било време да научи још неки и да му је отац био пандур код Милоша Обреновића (а овај, гле чуда, у службу примао „Бугаре“ печалбаре за пандуре поред толиких Срба )... Ако упоредиш наше народне обичаје видеђеш да су готово идентични са србијанским. Наше етнопсихолошке карактеристике немају ништа заједничко са Бугарима, а готово су идентичне са шумадијским. У Бугарској не постоји појам братимљења, У Србији и Македонији посотоји, ми и Србијанци славимо Славу, а то код Бугара не постоји (и зато су се толико трудили да током егзархије да тај обичај затру). Македонска епска поезија описује само личности из српске историје итд., итд...
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