Генетичка генеалогија

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valjda nam govori da severna komponenta ima jasno učešće u genetici populacije za koju ti tvrdiš da je imala minimalan upliv od strane Slovena. Dobro pogledaj kartu i videćeš da su granice te komponente u odličnoj korelaciji sa slovenskom ekspanzijom. I što je još zanimljivije, imaju i korelaciju sa arealom rasprostranjenja I2a, što nedvosmisleno govori da je ta haplogrupa na ove prostore došla u miksu sa Baltoslovenima.
Znači sad nije došla sa Slovenima, već 1000 - 2000 godina ranije kada je postojala baltoslovenska zajednica?
O ovoj karti govorimo.
East-Central Europe Eurogenes K36

Pogledajte prilog 484064
Srbi su od 10 do 15%
Irci od 5 do 10%
Kada su to Baltosloveni izvršili invaziju na Irsku?
Dodecad Ancestry Project K12b


Pogledajte prilog 484036

testirani hercegovac

Population
Gedrosia 2.60%
Siberian -
Northwest_African 0.88%
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 28.68%
North_European 40.53%
South_Asian 0.81%
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.86%
East_Asian -
Caucasus 21.56%
Sub_Saharan -

Лика - Срби

К12б
North_European 40.36%
Atlantic_Med 26.95%
Caucasus 20.23%
Southwest_Asian 7.58%
Gedrosia 3.59%
Siberian 0.91%
Northwest_African 0.27%
South_Asian 0.11%
Southeast_Asian -
East_African -
East_Asian -
Sub_Saharan -

К7б
Atlantic_Baltic 61.03%
Southern 21.01%
West_Asian 16.64%
Siberian 1.28%
South_Asian -
African -
East_Asian -


Далмација - Срби

К12б
North_European 40.36%
Atlantic_Med 26.87%
Caucasus 23.35%
Southwest_Asian 4.69%
Gedrosia 3.50%
Siberian 0.62%
East_Asian 0.50%
Northwest_African 0.07%
Southeast_Asian -
South_Asian -
East_African -
Sub_Saharan -

К7б
Atlantic_Baltic 61.50%
Southern 18.85%
West_Asian 18.31%
Siberian 0.82%
East_Asian 0.41%
African 0.11%
South_Asian -


K7b
Pogledajte prilog 484037

1 CG
South_Asian -
West_Asian 20.99%
Siberian 0.61%
African -
Southern 20.76%
Atlantic_Baltic 56.59%
East_Asian 1.04%

#2 Hercegovina
South_Asian 0.35%
West_Asian 15.99%
Siberian 0.57%
African -
Southern 20.21%
Atlantic_Baltic 62.87%
East_Asian -

#3 CG
South_Asian -
West_Asian 20.56%
Siberian -
African 0.06%
Southern 21.68%
Atlantic_Baltic 57.06%
East_Asian 0.65%
Evo tabele.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0
North_European
18% Andaluzija
44% Engleska
36% Francuska
45% Irci
64% Mixed_Slav_D
23% Severna Italija
22% Valensija
 
Poslednja izmena:
Znači sad nije došla sa Slovenima, već 1000 - 2000 godina ranije kada je postojala baltoslovenska zajednica?
O ovoj karti govorimo.
Onaj deo u zapadnoj Evropi i Skandinaviji nije stigao sa Slovenima ali onaj deo koji pada u areal slovneske ekspanzije u svom najvecem procentu jeste.

Srbi su od 10 do 15%
Irci od 5 do 10%
Kada su to Baltosloveni izvršili invaziju na Irsku?
Nikada ti nije palo na pamet gde su ziveli nosioci R1b M269 pre odlaska na zapad i ko su im bili susedi?
 
Onaj deo u zapadnoj Evropi i Skandinaviji nije stigao sa Slovenima ali onaj deo koji pada u areal slovneske ekspanzije u svom najvecem procentu jeste.
Jeste. Malo više, malo manje. Malo tumačimo kako nam se sviđa.
1000 godina pre ili kasnije.
1000 kilometara gore ili dole.
Nikada ti nije palo na pamet gde su ziveli nosioci R1b M269 pre odlaska na zapad i ko su im bili susedi?
To pokušavam da ti kažem.
Stigli i na zapad i na istok.

Da li je moguće da ne znate da su ti tzv indoevropljani živeli na ovom prostoru i pre Slovena.
 
živeli jesu ali ih iz nekog razloga skoro da i nije bilo u vreme slovenske ekspanzije. Ta genetička veza datira iz ranijeg vremena kada su R1a bili nešto severnije od ovih r1b. Ta veza se donekle može pratiti kroz ženski fenotip.
Hoćeš da kažeš da u vreme slovenske ekspanzije na području Panonije i Balkana nije bilo potomaka Rimljana, Grka, Kelta, Ilira, Panonaca, Tribala, Tračana, Dačana, Germana...
Sve su to indoevropski narodi.

Šta je sa Finsko-Sibirskom komponentom, koja je od gvozdenog doba zančajno zastupljna u istočnoj Evropi?
Zašto je nemamo, ako je ekspanzija Slovena sa tog područja.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/03/22/285437.full.pdf
The model of three ancestral populations, however, does not fit well for the
present-day populations from north-eastern Europe such as Saami, Russians,
Mordovians, Chuvash and Finns: they carry an additional ancestry component
seen as increased allele sharing with modern East Asian populations 1,3,9,10 . The
origin and timing of this East Asian-related contribution is unknown. Modern
Finns are known to possess a distinct genetic structure among today’s European
populations 9,11–14 , and the country’s geographical location at the crossroads of
eastern and western influences introduces a unique opportunity to investigate
the migratory past of North-East Europe. Furthermore, the early migrations and
the genetic origins of the Saami people in relation to the Finnish population call
for a closer inspection, with the linguistic evidence suggesting that Saami
languages have dominated the whole of the Finnish region before 1,000 CE 15–17 .
Here, the early Metal Age, Iron Age, and historical burials analysed provide a
suitable time-transect to ascertain the timing of the arrival of the deeply rooted
Siberian genetic ancestry, and a frame of reference for investigating linguistic
diversity in the region today.
In this study we present new genome-wide data from 11 individuals from
Finland and the Russian Kola Peninsula who lived between 3,500 to 200 years
ago. In addition, we present a new high-coverage genome from a modern Saami
individual for whom low coverage data was published previously 1 . Our results
suggest that a new genetic component with strong Siberian affinity first arrived
in Europe around 4,000 years ago, as observed in our oldest analysed
individuals from northern Russia, and that the gene pool of modern
north-eastern Europeans in general, and speakers of Uralic languages in
particular, is the result of multiple admixture events between Eastern and
Western sources since that first appearance. Additionally, we gain further
insights into the genetic history of the Saami in Finland, by showing that during
the Iron Age, close genetic relatives of modern Saami lived in an area much
further south than their current geographic range.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Nova statistika na Poreklu, odmah se vide nelogicnosti.


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zolzBA3.png
 
Mislim da nisi u pravu u vezi tumačenja karte o kojoj sam ja govorio. Ta severna komponenta nije povezana sa nosiocima haplogrupe N, što se da primetiti po smanjenim procentima na području Finske i Estonije. Ovde se radi prvenstveno o migracinama Slovena.
Sada ne govorim o severnoj lkomponeni, već o azijatima koji su od gvozdenog doba do ekspanzije Slovena dominirali istočnom Evropom, od Finske do Ukrajine.
Uključujući Skite i Sarmate.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Da vidimo sta kazu istrazivanja za Skite

Ancient Y-DNA data was finally provided by Keyser et al in 2009. They studied the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue- (or green-) eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilisation. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than those of central and southern Asia.[135] The ubiquity and utter dominance of R1a Y-DNA lineage contrasts markedly with the diversity seen in the mtDNA profiles.

However, this comparison was made on the basis of STRs. Since the 2009 study by Keyser et al, population and geographic specific SNPs have been discovered which can accurately distinguish between "European" R1a (M458, Z280) and "South Asian" R1a (Z93)[136] Re-analyzing ancient Scytho-Siberian samples for these more specific subclades will further elucidate if the Eurasian steppe populations have an ultimate Eastern European or EurAsian origin, or perhaps, both. This, in turn, might also depend on which population is studied, i.e. Herodotus' European "classical' Scythians, the Central Asian Sakae or un-named nomadic groups in the far east (Altai region) who also bore a 'Scythian" cultural tradition.[citation needed]

In a study conducted in 2014 by VV Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be abstracted from a total of 7. 4 of them turned out as belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 of them had mtDNA I.[137]

In 2015 the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted researches on various Sarmatian-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from 4th to 6th century AD turned out with yDNAs G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while from the three Sarmatian samples from 2nd to 3rd century AD two turned out both with yDNA J1-M267 and one with R1a.[138] And the three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from 8th to 9th century AD turned out with yDNAs G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94 respectively.[139]

According to a 2017 study about mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians, a comparison of North Pontic Region (NPR) Scythian mtDNA lineages with other ancient groups suggests close genetic affinities with representatives of the Bronze Age Srubnaya population, which is in agreement with the archaeological hypothesis suggesting Srubnaya people as the ancestors of the NPR Scythians. However, to provide additional genetic support for this hypothesis data from nuclear genomes are needed.[

Autosomalno istrazivanje
(dok populacije sa genetskim sličnostima sa istocnim skitijanskim skupinama se nalaze gotovo isključivo među govornicima turskih jezika)

In the recent two years new aDNA tests were made on various ancient samples across Eurasia, among them two from Scythian burials. This time the modern techniques of SNPs (in comparison to STRs in earlier tests) were in use. The Iron Age Scythian samples from the Volga region and European Steppes appear neither closely related to Eastern Europeans nor South- and Central Asians. Based on the results on professional as well amateur aDNA calculators both samples appear similar like a link between the Iranic speaking people of South-Central Asia as well people of the northern regions of West Asia on one side and Eastern Europeans on the other. This also fits fine with their geographic origin.[141][142][143]

Ancient genome-wide analysis on samples from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva, shows that Iron Age Scythians were a mix of Yamnaya people from the Russian Steppe and East Asian populations, similar to the Han and the Nganasan (Samoyedic people from northern Siberia). The East Asian admixture is pervasive across diverse present-day people from Siberia and Central Asia. The Eneolithic Yamnaya and the other Bronze Age kurgan groups from Pontic–Caspian steppe had a brunet pigmentation. Contemporary populations linked to western Iron Age Scythians can be found among diverse ethnic groups in the Caucasus, Russia and Central Asia (spread across many Iranian and other Indo-European speaking groups), whereas populations with genetic similarities to eastern Scythian groups are found almost exclusively among Turkic language speakers, particularly from the Kipchak branch of Turkic languages. These results are consistent with gene flow across the steppe territory between Europe and East Asia.

- - - - - - - - - -

Sarmati
In a study conducted in 2014 by Gennady Afanasiev et al. on bone fragments from ten Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA was extracted from seven.[clarification needed][22]

In 2015, the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted research on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from the 4th to 6th century AD turned out to belong to yDNA haplogroups G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while two of the three Sarmatian samples from the 2nd to 3rd century AD were found to belong to yDNA haplogroup J1-M267 while one belonged to R1a.[23] Three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from the 8th to 9th century AD turned out to have yDNA corresponding to haplogroups G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94.
 
U bronzano dobu imamo migraciju sa zapada na istok, mešanje sa azijatima, u gvozdenom dobu imamo migraciju u suprotnom smeru.

Šta je sporno?
Imamo više talasa migracija i sa istoka i sa severa.

Skiti i Sarmati su poznija pojava.
Prvo imamo migraciju iz ponta (ili severnije) na istok. Potom dolazi do mešanja sa azijatima, pa povratni talas.
Ima rad na tu temu.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615/figures/4
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615/figures/7

During the 1st millennium before the Common Era (BCE), nomadic tribes associated with the Iron Age Scythian culture spread over the Eurasian Steppe, covering a territory of more than 3,500 km in breadth. To understand the demographic processes behind the spread of the Scythian culture, we analysed genomic data from eight individuals and a mitochondrial dataset of 96 individuals originating in eastern and western parts of the Eurasian Steppe. Genomic inference reveals that Scythians in the east and the west of the steppe zone can best be described as a mixture of Yamnaya-related ancestry and an East Asian component. Demographic modelling suggests independent origins for eastern and western groups with ongoing gene-flow between them, plausibly explaining the striking uniformity of their material culture. We also find evidence that significant gene-flow from east to west Eurasia must have occurred early during the Iron Age.
 
Poslednja izmena:
To je greška koju konstantno ponavljaš.
Posmatraš isključivo Y HG.

Ovo je dobar primer.
R1a Z93 imaš na Balkanu 1000 godina pre pojave Skita. Slično je i sa ostalima.

R1a Z93 se može povezati sa stepskom populacijom, mada je R1a bila prisutna i u ukrajinskom neolitu.
Ono čega nema kod nas, a bilo je kod Skita, je azijski elemenat.
 
Poslednja izmena:
To je greška koju konstantno ponavljaš.
Posmatraš isključivo Y HG.

Ovo je dobar primer.
R1a Z93 imaš na Balkanu 1000 godina pre pojave Skita. Slično je i sa ostalima.

R1a Z93 se može povezati sa stepskom populacijom, mada je R1a bila prisutna i u ukrajinskom neolitu.
Ono čega nema kod nas, a bilo je kod Skita, je azijski elemenat.
Pa ne mozes eliminisati Y hromosom,posebno kada imamo ISKLJUCIVO oko 8 najmanje Hg navedenih gore kod Skita i Sarmata.Ne mozes ni eliminisati Y hromosom zato sto se preko njega i nalaza starih kostiju jasno moze pratiti kretanje ljudske populacije kroz istoriju.
 

Za BiH vec sada racunaj da je oko 40 % I-CTS10228-YP196.Nije uzimao rezultate iz neobjavljenih testiraniha i nekih u zadnje vrijeme.Kada pocnu stizati rezultati iz Hercegovine i sve vise testiranih iz regije Modrica,Doboj,Prnjavor,Derventa to ce biti najmanje 40 %.R1a Z280 i M458 zajedno nije realno da bude vise od 17 %,a E V13 ce biti tu oko 15 $
 
I za Srbiju i BiH je diskutabilno pogotovo za ovu drugu gde su I2a zakinuli za 2 do 3 posto.

Nisu "zakinuli",radi se o jednom covjeku koji napravio statistiku iz javne baze Srpskog DNK Projekta.Statistika je tacna ako gledamo bukvalno ali u stvarnosti sigurno R1a u BiH nije 24 % vec oko 17 % npr.Kada se bude pravila statistika poslije svih projekata i sve bude javno sve ce biti jasnije.
 
ovo za Srbe iz avnojevske Hr je smesno u najmanju ruku, obzirom da imaju najvise severne genetike medju Srbima, i ja ne znam ni jednu oblast osim mozda like koja ima ispod 40% I2a pa mi nije jasno kako je ovo ispalo, takodje ne znam ni jednu oblast sa ispod14,15 % R1a

Личани снижавају проценат I2a.
Зато што они имају мање I2a од српског просека а највише их је тестирано од Срба из авнојевске Хрватске.

Тренутни проценат I2a код Срба из авнојевске Хрватске је око 34,5%, R1a око је 17%, а E-V13 је 13-13,5% (на узорку од око 225, овај лик што је радио статистику је радио на 202).
 
Poslednja izmena:
stanje
Zatvorena za pisanje odgovora.

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