Генетичка генеалогија

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Lingvistički Sloveni su se formirali početkom 1. milenijuma.
O razmičith grupa.

Balti su druga grupa bliska Tračanima, koja je bila u dodiru sa Slovenima. Živeli su od severa Ukrajine do baltičkog mora.
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Ne može se staviti znak jednakosti između haplogrupa i etničke pripadnosti.
R1a nije samo slovenska...
 
Poslednja izmena:
Pozdrav ljudi!

Da li bi se nastanak Slovena kao etnolingvističke skupine, mogao povazati sa spajanjem haplogrupa R i I ?
Odnosno da li je do razdvajanja Balto-Slovena došlo nakon mešanja grupe N sa Baltima a I sa Slovenima, ako se uzme da je R Indoevropska ?

Po svakoj matematici je tako. Ako imamo baltoslovenski, pa se onda on deli na baltski i slovenski, vidi se koji su uticaji bili prisutni. Gde god imamo R i I zajedno, tu imamo i prisustvo slovenskog jezika.

Pretpostavljam da je samo mali deo pripadnika ugrofinskih plemena živeo u području formiranja baltoslovenske grupe jezika a da je do intenzivnijeg mešanja došlo u poznijem periodu.

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R1a nije samo slovenska...

R1a nije samo slovenska ali svugde gde je Z280, tu su i Sloveni. Nemoj mi samo računati Rumune, Mađare, Grke i Šiptare, pliz ))
 
Po svakoj matematici je tako. Ako imamo baltoslovenski, pa se onda on deli na baltski i slovenski, vidi se koji su uticaji bili prisutni. Gde god imamo R i I zajedno, tu imamo i prisustvo slovenskog jezika.

Pretpostavljam da je samo mali deo pripadnika ugrofinskih plemena živeo u području formiranja baltoslovenske grupe jezika a da je do intenzivnijeg mešanja došlo u poznijem periodu.

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R1a nije samo slovenska ali svugde gde je Z280, tu su i Sloveni. Nemoj mi samo računati Rumune, Mađare, Grke i Šiptare, pliz ))
A baltički narodi?
Mada i oko Mađara je malo čudna situacija, svi ugrofinski narodi imaju visok procenat R1a Z 280 hg. I to baš Z280.
 
A sta su balticki narodi nego jedan segment baltoslovena? Upravo zahvaljujuci postojanju tog Z280 imamo zajednicki supstrat u te dve sada podeljene lingvisticke grupe. Sirenjem Slovena i Balta prema severu dolazi do spajanja sa nosiocima N1c negde gore u blizini Finske. Zanimljivo je da kod Litvanaca imamo celih 6% I2a Din, sto je zanimljiva pojava.
 
A sta su balticki narodi nego jedan segment baltoslovena? Upravo zahvaljujuci postojanju tog Z280 imamo zajednicki supstrat u te dve sada podeljene lingvisticke grupe. Sirenjem Slovena i Balta prema severu dolazi do spajanja sa nosiocima N1c negde gore u blizini Finske. Zanimljivo je da kod Litvanaca imamo celih 6% I2a Din, sto je zanimljiva pojava.
Da zanimljiva pojava.
Otkud, ako je I2a din mlada?
Kako ako je ako su Sloveni i Balti nastali razdvajanjem Baltoslovena, a I2 CTS10228 slovenska?
 
Poslednja izmena:
Мене више збуњује што је има код Литванаца а скоро да нема код Латиша. Тим пре што су Латиши држали Белорусију и Украјину заједно са Пољацима. То је онда ствар коју је тешко логички протумачити.
Сигуран сам да је то присуство од 6% последива каснијих миграција, после раздвајања на две одвојене групе.
 
Мене више збуњује што је има код Литванаца а скоро да нема код Латиша. Тим пре што су Латиши држали Белорусију и Украјину заједно са Пољацима. То је онда ствар коју је тешко логички протумачити.
Сигуран сам да је то присуство од 6% последива каснијих миграција, после раздвајања на две одвојене групе.

Pa da,posljedica kasnijih migracija vjerovatno.A i geografski polozaj nije bas neobican da imamo 6 % CTS10228.To je oko 80 hiljada nosilaca danas.Meni je iznenadjenje da po istrazivanju krajem prosle godine u Moskvi imamo vise od 11 % CTS 10228
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ne bi bilo neobicno da u Latviji imamo bar 2-3% I2a Din. Evo sad pogledah na Eupediji, Latvia 1%, Lithuania 6%.
Zasto bi za Moskvu bilo iznenadjenje kada je to u skladu sa statistikom za Ruse od pre? Moskva je slicno Beogradu vecinski naseljena iz drugih oblasti drzave.

Kada smo vec kod Eupedije, vidim da su menjali statistiku i da su znatn povecali procenat R1a kod Srba u sRbiji i u BiH. Pretpostavljam da je to rezultat zalaganja trandze i istomisljenika kod moderatora foruma. Ocigledno je da su ubrojani i podaci sa srpskog DNK projekta.
 
Мене више збуњује што је има код Литванаца а скоро да нема код Латиша. Тим пре што су Латиши држали Белорусију и Украјину заједно са Пољацима. То је онда ствар коју је тешко логички протумачити.
Сигуран сам да је то присуство од 6% последива каснијих миграција, после раздвајања на две одвојене групе.
Upravo to.
Imamo kasniju migraciju I2a CTS10228 na sever. Na samo na prostor Litvanije.
A Baltoslovenska zajednica verovatno nikada nije ni postajala.
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Bilo bi zanimljivo znati genetiku Tračana.
 
Ne bi bilo neobicno da u Latviji imamo bar 2-3% I2a Din. Evo sad pogledah na Eupediji, Latvia 1%, Lithuania 6%.
Zasto bi za Moskvu bilo iznenadjenje kada je to u skladu sa statistikom za Ruse od pre? Moskva je slicno Beogradu vecinski naseljena iz drugih oblasti drzave.

Kada smo vec kod Eupedije, vidim da su menjali statistiku i da su znatn povecali procenat R1a kod Srba u sRbiji i u BiH. Pretpostavljam da je to rezultat zalaganja trandze i istomisljenika kod moderatora foruma. Ocigledno je da su ubrojani i podaci sa srpskog DNK projekta.

Da,lobirali su neki sa foruma :)
Pa mislio sam da je u Rusiji oko 6 % DIN.
 
Ovo je po Sedovu.
Granica Balta i Slovena.
http://slavya.ru/trad/history/genezis/sed3.gif
Ne bi mene iznenadilo da je litvanska I2a bliska našoj
Zbog fibula.

Sedova postujem ali trebalo bi znati na koji vremenski okvir se odnosi karta. Meni je ova ilustracija dosta bolja:

Balto-Slavic_lng.png

Ovo se jako lepo uklapa u zonu Z280
 
Sedova postujem ali trebalo bi znati na koji vremenski okvir se odnosi karta. Meni je ova ilustracija dosta bolja:

Balto-Slavic_lng.png

Ovo se jako lepo uklapa u zonu Z280
Ispade cela Belorusija balticka, nema sanse.
Ne radi se o tome koja karta nam se više sviđa, već o tome koja je tačna.
Ovo su prve nedvosmisleno slovenske arheološke kulture. http://slavya.ru/trad/history/genezis/sed3.gif
Sporno je to što im prpisuje etnička imena po Jordanesu.
Sporan je i jug, zbog manjka nalaza u vreme objave ovog rada. (ili publikacije).
Mada i ova karta zalazi u Panoniju i Potisje.

Kara govorimo o R1a Z280, treba znati da je ova HG potvrđena u okviru bronzanodobske Lužničke kulture, na prostoru današnje Nemačke.
Kasnije su ih potisla germanska plemena.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Карта коју сам ја поставио је таачна и базирана је на археолошким подацима. Црвене тачкице престављају ране словенске хидрониме. Карта Седова је такође тачна, само је питање на који временски период се односи. Видим да покрива посебно Словене, Анте и Венде, док их ова приказује заједно.
 
Карта коју сам ја поставио је таачна и базирана је на археолошким подацима. Црвене тачкице престављају ране словенске хидрониме. Карта Седова је такође тачна, само је питање на који временски период се односи. Видим да покрива посебно Словене, Анте и Венде, док их ова приказује заједно.
Da ti verujem na reč, ili ćeš navesti iz kog rada je.
Karta Sedova je ranija.
Taj prostor je izvorno Baltski.
Imamo migraciju Slovena, čini mi se oko 6. veka iz srednjeg Povislja na istok. Mo\da i ranije. Napustili srednje Povislje, da bi se kasnije tu naselili drugi Sloveni. Malo pišem po sećanju...

Ranije, na početku bronzanog doba, ili pre, to jeste prostor iz koga se širi R1a HG.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Tekst Teda Kendella,govori o porijeklu I2-CTS10228

The main subclade of "Dinaric I2a", I-S17250, has a remarkably recent tMRCA according to YFull, of only 160 CE.
https://yfull.com/tree/I-S17250/
I-S17250 shows signs of an extremely rapid population expansion at the very start. It seems that the closest group to the ethinic origin of the I-S17250 group are the Sclaveni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni.
The tMRCA is right at the start of theLate Proto-Slavic linguistic period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Slavic#Introduction
It also coincides with the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius' Marcommani Wars, a campaign against the Germanic Marcomanni and Quadi, and the Iranic Sarmatians, when there was a movement southward by various allied tribes into the Roman Empire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcomannic_Wars
A map of the archaeological cultures of Eastern Europe in the 1st Century
https://upload.wikimedia.org/…/Rome_and_the_Barbarians_in_E…
It also coincides with the Antonine Plague which had a mortality of 25%. The Antonine Plague may have been either smallpox, acquired from trade with India, or measles, but measles in its modern form is thought to have originated a bit later. The combination of invasions from the north, including peoples who may have been associated with the Proto-Slavs, and the high mortality from the Antonine Plague, seems to have produced a strong founder effect followed by a rapid population expansion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Plague
I-CTS10228, the immediate ancestor of South Slavic I-S17250, according to YFull has a tMRCA of c. 200 BCE, and has members from Greece, Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, North Germany, and Finland.
https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
This seems to correspond to some degree to peoples associated with the other two other proto-Slavic tribes, the Antes and the "Vistula Veneti" who Pliny the Elder in the 1st century calls the "Sarmatae Venedi" and Ptolemy in the 2nd century calles the "Vouenedai", a people who lived along the Baltic coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

Jordanes in his Getica (c. 550 CE) says that the Veneti are the ancestors of the Sclaveni and Antes. I think then we may want to look for the origin of generally "Slavic" I-CTS10228 in the north, along the Baltic coast, rather than in regions further south and east where it is found today, where it has particularly high percentages in the Balkans.
https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/
The late Neolithic precursor of I-CTS10228, I-L621 is also found in Britain and Ireland. While I-L621 existed at the time of the Corded Ware Culture, I-CTS10228 did not expand at all until c. 200 BCE. so we can't say that it was a part of the Early Bronze Age Corded Ware expansion which took place c. 2900 BCE – c. 2350 BCE
https://yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
Interestingly, I-Y23118 is an Ashkenazi Jewish clade within the I-CTS10288 subclade I-A2512. I-Y23118 has a tMRCA of only 550 years, but along with a Pole if has a tMRCA of c. 40 CE with several Greeks from the Peloponnese as its earliest members, as well as a few Hispanics. The Hispanics can be "Saqaliba", Slavic Mamluks (slave mercenaries) who eventually took control of various small Muslim states ("taifas") after the Umayyad Caliphate collapsed in 1031. What is unusual about I-Y23118 is not that it contains Ashkenazi Jews (there were known converts to Judaism in Central and Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages) but rather that I-A2512 is both quite rare and almost completely found outside of Slavic populations.
Starting in 581 CE, large numbers of Sclaveni invaded Greece. The problem here is that the tMRCA of the Greeks is right around 60 CE, 100 years earlier than I-S17250. This is well before any movement of Germanic or proto-Slavic tribes southward into the Roman Balkans.
The earliest expansion within I-CTS10228 is I-Y4460, with a tMRCA of 200 BCE. The earliest members of this subclade are a German from Hamburg (a formerly West Slavic region), and Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians, and a few Finns. This fits well with the Antes, who were found in Ukraine and at this early stage seem to be indistinguishable from the ancestral Veneti from further north.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs#Homeland
The origins of I-CTS10228 appear to be in the Baltic region among the ancestral (Vistula) Veneti ("Sarmatae Venedi"), the "Winden" or "Wends", but they appear to have made a rapid migration to the far south within 250 years of their origin, perhaps with a few captives or mercenaries living in Greece. We should also be able to trace this Baltic-originated migration southward through the mtDNA and autosomal DNA. WHG haplogroup I-M423, as represented by Loschbour, remained relatively rare outside of Sardinia until this rapid expansion, but within a few centuries, it began to dominate certain South Slavic regions like Bosnia and expand throughout the Slavic-populated areas. This shows how an essentially non-existent Y-DNA clade from one distant region can overtake and replace native Y-DNA clades as the result of a migration and expansion of a new group, and that the Y-DNA makeup of historic populations as late as the Classical Era may have been very different from the present day Y haplogroup profile in these same regions.
It cannot be coincidence that the expansion of I-S17250 took place right at the time of a major pandemic, the Antonine Plague, that killed off one quarter of the population of Europe. Clearly, it's not only migrations that change the population structure of a region, but also pandemics with high mortality. Random variations in immune system alleles can cause a new group or the children of a single random couple to dominate and partially replace a previous population lacking immunity.
 
DNA Research Sheds Light on Migration Pattern of Early Farmers
Thu, 04/06/2017 - 3:10pm 1 Comment
by Kenny Walter - Digital Reporter - @RandDMagazine

New DNA research has led credence to a theory that the spread of agriculture throughout Europe followed migration into the Mediterranean from the Near East much earlier than previously thought.

Researchers from the University of Huddersfield in the U.K. believe the migration pattern began more than 13,000 years ago during the Late Glacial period—thousands of years earlier than what was widely believed.

The researchers believe that initially the migrants were hunter-gatherers, but later developed a knowledge of agriculture from other populations from the Near East—where farming began.

They also concluded that during the Neolithic period—approximately 8,000 years ago—they began to colonize other parts of Europe, taking their farming practices with them.

The researchers used almost 1,500 mitochondrial genome lineages to date the arrival of people in different regions of Europe.

They found that in central Europe and Iberia, these could mainly be traced to the Neolithic period, but in the central and eastern Mediterranean, they predominantly dated to the much earlier during the Late Glacial period.

Professor Martin Richards of the University of Huddersfield, explained that the research team carried out the latest investigations using modern DNA samples, because in Italy and Greece there is an acute shortage of pre-Neolithic skeletal remains from which ancient samples can be taken and the warmth of the climate has resulted in low levels of preservation.

“We haven't been able to fill the gap with ancient DNA, so we found a way to get round that by looking at modern samples,” Richards said in a statement. “Instead of dating the lineages across Europe as a whole we have dated them firstly in the Mediterranean area and then we have looked at what happens if you assume that they have arrived in that area and then moved on.”

Richards said he hopes that new sources of ancient DNA in Italy and Greece will be discovered, so that his migration scenario can be tested more directly.

“In the past, it's been difficult to recover DNA from these kinds of environments but there have been so many technical developments in the recovery of ancient DNA in the last few years that I think it will happen soon,” Richards said.
...
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blog...w-true-path-of-early.html#xF2dPummD5zM2fdH.97
 
Poslednja izmena:
Eastern Mediterranean Mobility in the Bronze and Early Iron Ages: Inferences from Ancient DNA of Pigs and Cattle
Meirav Meiri, Philipp W. Stockhammer, Nimrod Marom, Guy Bar-Oz, Lidar Sapir-Hen, Peggy Morgenstern, Stella Macheridis, Baruch Rosen, Dorothée Huchon, Joseph Maran & Israel Finkelstein

The Late Bronze of the Eastern Mediterranean (1550–1150 BCE) was a period of strong commercial relations and great prosperity, which ended in collapse and migration of groups to the Levant. Here we aim at studying the translocation of cattle and pigs during this period. We sequenced the first ancient mitochondrial and Y chromosome DNA of cattle from Greece and Israel and compared the results with morphometric analysis of the metacarpal in cattle. We also increased previous ancient pig DNA datasets from Israel and extracted the first mitochondrial DNA for samples from Greece. We found that pigs underwent a complex translocation history, with links between Anatolia with southeastern Europe in the Bronze Age, and movement from southeastern Europe to the Levant in the Iron I (ca. 1150–950 BCE). Our genetic data did not indicate movement of cattle between the Aegean region and the southern Levant. We detected the earliest evidence for crossbreeding between taurine and zebu cattle in the Iron IIA (ca. 900 BCE). In light of archaeological and historical evidence on Egyptian imperial domination in the region in the Late Bronze Age, we suggest that Egypt attempted to expand dry farming in the region in a period of severe droughts.
http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-00701-y
 
Dobar tekst koji mozda govori i o nasoj I1 "drobnjackom klasteru".

The Eastern Europe cluster consists of an area encompassing present day Latvia, south to Ukraine, Romania, and the northern part of Bulgaria, west along the eastern edge of the Balkan states to Poland and the eastern half of Germany.

The early populations in the Eastern Europe cluster consisted largely of small agricultural communities. Some of these developed indigenously, others were colonies of farming communities from Asia Minor. Eastern Europe played a significant role in the metalworking traditions of Scandinavia, and an intense metal trade was established between the two by 1500 BCE. Invasions from the Celts (from Gaul and Germany) in 1000 BCE in the north and central regions and invasion from Iranian tribes to the south in 1000 BCE interrupted this trade. By 200 BCE, Scandinavian Celts drove southward and ended the Iranian control in the south.

Slavs from the North Carpathians were forced into the steppe regions of present day Ukraine and Belarus by the 5th Century. The Turkish empire controlled the Ukrainian steppe between 700 – 900 CE, using its location to improve their mercantile empire. By the Viking Age of the 8th century, trade between the Scandinavian cluster and the Eastern Europe continued. By the middle of the 9th century, Vikings took control of the trade route that ran from the Baltic Sea, along the Dnieper River, and into Constantinople in present day Turkey. The Vikings exploited the local Slavic peoples and established their stronghold in Kiev, of which the Viking merchants were to be the progenitors of the Kievan Princes. By the 11th century, the Viking Age ended and the Mongol army sacked Kiev in 1240, they became a part of the Golden Horde – the western portion of the Mongol empire.

The Eastern Europe cluster sits on two prominent trade routes, causing a history complete with invasion and migration. As a result, the genetic relatedness of populations within this cluster is shaped by the water trade routes from Scandinavia and the Baltic Sea into Constantinople, connecting Eastern Europe with Scandinavia and Siberia; it also includes the Steppe region, connecting Eastern Europe to Russia, Asia Minor, and the Eastern Middle East. Genetic diversity in this region is high.
 
Dobar tekst koji mozda govori i o nasoj I1 "drobnjackom klasteru".

The Eastern Europe cluster consists of an area encompassing present day Latvia, south to Ukraine, Romania, and the northern part of Bulgaria, west along the eastern edge of the Balkan states to Poland and the eastern half of Germany.

The early populations in the Eastern Europe cluster consisted largely of small agricultural communities. Some of these developed indigenously, others were colonies of farming communities from Asia Minor. Eastern Europe played a significant role in the metalworking traditions of Scandinavia, and an intense metal trade was established between the two by 1500 BCE. Invasions from the Celts (from Gaul and Germany) in 1000 BCE in the north and central regions and invasion from Iranian tribes to the south in 1000 BCE interrupted this trade. By 200 BCE, Scandinavian Celts drove southward and ended the Iranian control in the south.

Slavs from the North Carpathians were forced into the steppe regions of present day Ukraine and Belarus by the 5th Century. The Turkish empire controlled the Ukrainian steppe between 700 – 900 CE, using its location to improve their mercantile empire. By the Viking Age of the 8th century, trade between the Scandinavian cluster and the Eastern Europe continued. By the middle of the 9th century, Vikings took control of the trade route that ran from the Baltic Sea, along the Dnieper River, and into Constantinople in present day Turkey. The Vikings exploited the local Slavic peoples and established their stronghold in Kiev, of which the Viking merchants were to be the progenitors of the Kievan Princes. By the 11th century, the Viking Age ended and the Mongol army sacked Kiev in 1240, they became a part of the Golden Horde – the western portion of the Mongol empire.

The Eastern Europe cluster sits on two prominent trade routes, causing a history complete with invasion and migration. As a result, the genetic relatedness of populations within this cluster is shaped by the water trade routes from Scandinavia and the Baltic Sea into Constantinople, connecting Eastern Europe with Scandinavia and Siberia; it also includes the Steppe region, connecting Eastern Europe to Russia, Asia Minor, and the Eastern Middle East. Genetic diversity in this region is high.

Tekst je dobar , ali više govori o trgovinskoj ruti koja je povezivala Baltik sa jugom Balkana, kao i o dominaciji Skandinavskih Kelta nad Iranskim plemenima na Balkanu i povlačenju Slovena iz Rumunije u današnju Ukrajinu i Belorusiju u 5. vijeku na teritoriju koju su kontrolisali Turci. To se poklapa i sa doseljavanjem Slovena na Balkan. Dakle, jedan dio Slovena se tad stopio sa Turcima, a drugi je iz Rumunije prelazio u Rimsko Carstvo.
 
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