Možda nisam ispratio diskusiju, ali zar nije, ma zapadnom Balkanu zapadna R1b?Ето, јесте Андалузија чекао али је дочекао да му др Ахил одговори на питање. Он поименице зна све оне што су дочекали 2% Словена
Нисам био ту па нисам могао ни да коментаришем. Пошто су углавном у питању xL23 хаплотипови (мада смо танки са подацима), онда их морамо везати за древне популације. Трачане пре свега. Врло вероватно да су и Илири део те приче.
Генетичка генеалогија
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E, hvala lijepo svima, i izvinjavam se zbog nestrpljivosti.
p.s. Gdje se na ovoj mobilnoj verziji foruma treba pritisnuti, da bi se nekome dodijelila reputacija?
p.s. Gdje se na ovoj mobilnoj verziji foruma treba pritisnuti, da bi se nekome dodijelila reputacija?
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A sta cemo recimo sa predrasudama da svako moze da filozofira i da su naucnici ograniceni ljudi i slicne gluposti kao sto su moderne teorije? Njih zastupa vecina, dakle, vecina ima ... "kompleks" nize vrijednosti ili nizu vrijednost?
Verovatno je razlog zato što haplogrupe R1b nema ravnomerno u svim regijama. Nedavno je bilo predstavljanje rezultata Srpskog DNK dana, ti si ovde okačio video klip i dr. Todorović je govorio genetskim istraživanjem Srba u Srbiji i o pojednim haplogrupama i rekao je da je R1b nađen kod Srba oko 6-7% i da su većinom zapadne varijante. Ima je najviše kod Srba na istoku Srbije, onda u šumadijsko-vojvođanskoj zoni i uopšte u Vojvodini, ima je najmanje u kosovskoj-resavskoj zoni i izgleda i u jugozapadnoj Srbiji. U Srbiji postoje oblasti u kojima se ljudi uopšte ne testiraju zbog toga i nema mnogo pozitivnih na haplogrupu R1b. Dok sa druge strane Srbi zapadno od Drine su daleko aktivni i oni se redovno testiraju i ima ih iz ranih krajeva, skoro od 200 haplotipa za sad su pozitivna samo dvojica na haplogrupu R1b. Ja mislim da R1b kod Srba zapadno od Drine ima manje nego što te haplogrupe ima kod Srba u Srbiji, sigurno ispod 5%.
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Te nazive je ako se ne varam u nauku uveo Adler. Definitivno, kompleksi su vazan spiritus movens kako pojedinca, tako i zajednice. Vrslo cesto rec "kompleks" ima negativnu konotaciju ali ne mora uvek da bude tako. Kompleks moze da natera coveka da se usavrsi kako bi izbegao bol koji on oseca zbog postojanja kompleksa. Zanimljiva je cinjenica da je kompleks vise vrednosti samo jedna od varijanti kompleksa nize vrednosti. To su situacije kada neko sebi olaksava dusevnu bol tako sto u svovoj glavi stvori fiktivnu poziciju uzvisenosti nad onima koji mu zagorcavaju zivot. Ako neko nije fizicki privlacan, on ce uloziti veliku energiju da bi dosao do kompenzacije tog nedostatka i stvorio sto povoljnije uslove za reprodukciju. Svi mi smo puni svakojakih "kompleksa" a da pojma nemamo o tome.
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Koliko ja znam, u Srbiji je velikom delom xL23, dakle "stara" i ja bi je nazvao "tracanska" i "dacanska" R1b. I ja sam ocekivao da bi u zapadnim krajevima "regiona" trebala biti dominantnija "zapadna" R1b, ali sam u nekom istrazivanju za Hrvatsku (ne mogu se setiti kojem) video da je i tamo dominantnija "stara" R1b.
Misljenja sam da nisu samo R1b pripadali Tracanima i Dacanima ali su vrlo verovatno tamo oni igrali glavnu rec.
Logicni prenosioci nasledja iz kulture Jamnaja. Ista zivotna filozofija, isti obicaji.
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stani... Todorovic govorio da su na istoku Srbije dominantnije zapadne varijante R1b? Moram priznati da video nisam odgledao sa maksimalnom paznjom (nesto sam radio i istovremeno slusao) ali mi nije logicno da je receno nesto slicno. Tim pre sto istocna Srbija gravitira ka regionima istorijske Trakije i Dakije. sa juga Grcka, sa jugozapada Albanija. Celo okruzenje "stara" a da u nas bude "zapadna" R1b?
Ako me pamcenje ne vara, mislim da u Marjanovicevom istrazivanju Srbi u BiH imaju vise R1b od ostalih i da taj postotak tamo uopste nije bio mali.
| Bosnia-Herzegovina | Serbs | 81 | 6.2% | Marjanovic et al. (2005) |
| Serbia | National | 100 | 10.0% | Belaresque et al. (2009) |
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Kada smo vec kod R1b, pronadjoh i ovaj zanimljivi podatak. Racunalo se da R1b istocno oid Irana ne prelazi par postotaka.
| Nepal | Newar | 66 | 10.60% | Gayden et al. (2007) |
Zar ne reče dr. Todorović nedavno da su u Srbiji prisutne zapadne varijante haplogrupe R1b sa oko 5 % ?
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Moram priznati da me na celom polju GG u poslednje vreme najvise intrigira pitanje porekla haplogrupe E. Stvar je u tome sto postoji dosta dokaza da se ona smesti u afriku ali se istovremeno javlja mnostvo argumenata protiv toga. Odgovor bi se trebao traziti u haplogrupu DE*
The majority of DE male lines can be categorized as being in either Haplogroup D (Y-DNA), which likely originated in Asia, the only place where it has been found, or haplogroup E, which is believed to have originated in East Africa or the Near East. The remainder are said to be in the paragroup DE*, confirmed cases of which are extremely rare.
DE* has been most frequently observed amongst Nigerians, albeit at a low frequency. In a study of over 8,000 men worldwide, five out of 1,247 Nigerian males were so classified. However, the study's authors have cautioned that "the apparently paraphyletic status of this haplogroup, and hence the conclusions of nested cladistic analysis, are also likely to be illusory" and that "the only genealogically meaningful definition of the age of a clade is the time to its most recent common ancestor, but only if DE* is paraphyletic does it also become automatically older than D or E in this sense. More recently, one example of DE* was possibly found among speakers of the Nalu language in Guinea Bissau (1/17). The DE* sequence of this individual differs by one mutation from the DE* sequence of the Nigerian individuals. This indicates common ancestry, though the phylogenetic relationship between the two lineages was not determined in this particular study. A 2008 study detected DE* in two individuals from Tibet (2/594). The paragroup DE* in africa is probably a divergent form of E while the paragroup DE in Tibet probably is a more divergent form of D,
Haplogroup DE is found in Africa (Haplogroups E and DE*) and East Asia (Haplogroups D and DE* and E*) but is largely absent in between these two regions. The presence of DE across widely separated regions has confounded investigators trying to reconstruct the migration of humans from Africa to Asia. At some time, there was an extinction of DE lineages in West, South and Central Asia. Autochthonous DE lineages are absent in India, an important region in the dispersal of humans in Asia. However DE lineages have been detected in relict populations of the Andaman Islands. Underhill et al. 2007, suggest the possibility that deleterious mutations in some DE carriers may explain the extinction of DE lineages in India.
The scenarios outlined by Hammer include an out of Africa migration over 100,000 years ago, the YAP+ insertion on an Asian Y-chromosome 55,000 years ago and a back migration of YAP+ from Asia to Africa 31,000 years ago by its subclade haplogroup E.[SUP][/SUP] This analysis was based on the fact that older African lineages, such as haplogroups A and B, were YAP negative whereas the younger lineage, haplogroup E was YAP positive. Haplogroup D, which is YAP positive, was clearly an Asian lineage, being found only in East Asia with high frequencies in Japan and Tibet. Because the mutations that define haplogroup E were observed to be in the ancestral state in haplogroup D, and haplogroup D at 55kya, was considerably older than haplogroup E at 31kya, Hammer concluded that haplogroup E was a subclade of haplogroup D
In 2000 a number of scientists had started to reassess the hypothesis of an Asian origin of the YAP insertion. Underhill et al. 2000 identified the D-M174 mutation that defines haplogroup D. The M174 allele is found in the ancestral state in all African lineages including haplogroup E. The discovery of M174 mutation meant that haplogroup E could not be a subclade of haplogroup D. These findings effectively neutralized the argument of an Asian origin of the YAP+ based on the character state of the M40 and M96 mutations that define haplogroup E. According to Underhill et al. 2000, the M174 data alone would support an African origin of the YAP insertion.
Further arguments were made supporting and African origin of the YAP in Underhill et al. 2001. The arguments for an African origin include.[SUP][/SUP]
Chandrasekhar et al. 2007, have argued for the Asian origin of the YAP+. They state,
По другой версии, YAP+ родом из Азии. Это подтверждают следующие аргументы:
The majority of DE male lines can be categorized as being in either Haplogroup D (Y-DNA), which likely originated in Asia, the only place where it has been found, or haplogroup E, which is believed to have originated in East Africa or the Near East. The remainder are said to be in the paragroup DE*, confirmed cases of which are extremely rare.
DE* has been most frequently observed amongst Nigerians, albeit at a low frequency. In a study of over 8,000 men worldwide, five out of 1,247 Nigerian males were so classified. However, the study's authors have cautioned that "the apparently paraphyletic status of this haplogroup, and hence the conclusions of nested cladistic analysis, are also likely to be illusory" and that "the only genealogically meaningful definition of the age of a clade is the time to its most recent common ancestor, but only if DE* is paraphyletic does it also become automatically older than D or E in this sense. More recently, one example of DE* was possibly found among speakers of the Nalu language in Guinea Bissau (1/17). The DE* sequence of this individual differs by one mutation from the DE* sequence of the Nigerian individuals. This indicates common ancestry, though the phylogenetic relationship between the two lineages was not determined in this particular study. A 2008 study detected DE* in two individuals from Tibet (2/594). The paragroup DE* in africa is probably a divergent form of E while the paragroup DE in Tibet probably is a more divergent form of D,
Haplogroup DE is found in Africa (Haplogroups E and DE*) and East Asia (Haplogroups D and DE* and E*) but is largely absent in between these two regions. The presence of DE across widely separated regions has confounded investigators trying to reconstruct the migration of humans from Africa to Asia. At some time, there was an extinction of DE lineages in West, South and Central Asia. Autochthonous DE lineages are absent in India, an important region in the dispersal of humans in Asia. However DE lineages have been detected in relict populations of the Andaman Islands. Underhill et al. 2007, suggest the possibility that deleterious mutations in some DE carriers may explain the extinction of DE lineages in India.
The scenarios outlined by Hammer include an out of Africa migration over 100,000 years ago, the YAP+ insertion on an Asian Y-chromosome 55,000 years ago and a back migration of YAP+ from Asia to Africa 31,000 years ago by its subclade haplogroup E.[SUP][/SUP] This analysis was based on the fact that older African lineages, such as haplogroups A and B, were YAP negative whereas the younger lineage, haplogroup E was YAP positive. Haplogroup D, which is YAP positive, was clearly an Asian lineage, being found only in East Asia with high frequencies in Japan and Tibet. Because the mutations that define haplogroup E were observed to be in the ancestral state in haplogroup D, and haplogroup D at 55kya, was considerably older than haplogroup E at 31kya, Hammer concluded that haplogroup E was a subclade of haplogroup D
In 2000 a number of scientists had started to reassess the hypothesis of an Asian origin of the YAP insertion. Underhill et al. 2000 identified the D-M174 mutation that defines haplogroup D. The M174 allele is found in the ancestral state in all African lineages including haplogroup E. The discovery of M174 mutation meant that haplogroup E could not be a subclade of haplogroup D. These findings effectively neutralized the argument of an Asian origin of the YAP+ based on the character state of the M40 and M96 mutations that define haplogroup E. According to Underhill et al. 2000, the M174 data alone would support an African origin of the YAP insertion.
Further arguments were made supporting and African origin of the YAP in Underhill et al. 2001. The arguments for an African origin include.[SUP][/SUP]
- Africa has the highest frequency of YAP(>80%). Whereas the YAP+ in Asia has a fairly restricted geographic distribution, mainly at low to moderate frequencies (average 9.6%) in East Asia.[SUP][/SUP]
- It was claimed that there was no archaeological evidence of a back-migration to Africa, and at the time of writing that there was no unequivocal Y DNA, mitochondrial DNA or autosomal DNA evidence of a back migration to Africa.[SUP][/SUP]
- Although Haplogroup C seems to have originated in Asia at a similar time to Haplogroup DE's origin, Haplogroup C shows no sign of back migration to Africa.
Chandrasekhar et al. 2007, have argued for the Asian origin of the YAP+. They state,
The presence of the YAP insertion in Northeast Indian tribes and Andaman Islanders with haplogroup D suggests that some of the M168 chromosomes gave rise to the YAP insertion and M174 mutation in South Asia
По другой версии, YAP+ родом из Азии. Это подтверждают следующие аргументы:
- Учитывая наличие YAP у носителей гаплогруппы D в северо-восточной Индии и на Андаманских островах, можно предположить, что в Южной Азии некоторые из хромосом M168 привели к добавлению YAP и мутации M174
- Гаплогруппа CT, от которой происходит DE, имеет неафриканское происхождение
- Существуют свидетельства несколько более поздних перемещений хромосом из Азии в Африку.
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Covek je radio istrazivanja i valjda bi trebao da zna sta je istrazivao. Da bi se stvar razjasnila, trebalo bi da objavi te rezultate.
Vec sam rekao da su u Hrvatskoj prisutni xL23 i to u krajevima za koje sam ranije smatrao da definitivno imaju "zapadni" R1b, konkretno Istra. Dakle, ako je Todorovic nasao da se radi o "zapadnim" R1b, pogotovo u istocnoj Srbiji gde bi bilo logicno ocekivati "stari" R1b, onda to svedoci o nekoj anomaliji koja ne moze imati neko dublje istorijsko utemeljenje.
Prilozi
Памћење те не вара, а надам се да су ти и остале функције на истом нивоу
У Марјановићевом истраживању од 2005-е, тестираних који су се изјаснили као Срби је било укупно 81, од чега су њих 5 сврстано у хаплугрупу R1b. Дакле 6,17%.
Тестираних који су се изјаснили као Бошњаци је било укупно 85, од чега су њих 3 сврстани у хаплогрупу R1b. Дакле 3,53%.
Тестираних који су се изјаснили као Хрвати је било укупно 90, од чега су њих двојица сврстани у хаплогрупу R1b. Дакле 2,22%.
У хаплогрупу R1b су сврстани сви они испитаници, чији је узорак позитивно одговорио на тестирање на Y-SNP М269. То би била хаплогрупа која је у садашњој верзији ISOGG стабла означена са R1b1a2, као и, наравно, све њене низводне подгрупе.
И ови резултати који се, највјероватније, не поклапају са стварном ситуацијом, су посљедица неравномјерног узимања узорака по регијама у БИХ.
Толико велики удио R1b међу онима који су се изјаснили као Срби, проузрокован је тиме што је већина тих људи поријеклом из западне Босне и сјеверне Босне.
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R1b-ht35 (Z2103)
Haak et al. (2015) tested six Y-DNA samples from the eastern reaches of Yamna culture, in the Volga-Ural region, and all of them turned out to belong to haplogroup R1b. Four of them were positive for the Z2103 mutation. IN all likelihood, R1b-Z2103 was a major lineage of the Poltavka culture, which succeeded to the Yamna culture between the Volga River and the Ural mountains. It eventually merged with the Abashevo culture (presumably belonging chiefly to R1a-Z93) to form the Sintashta culture. Through a founder effect or through political domination, R1a-Z93 lineages would have outnumbered R1b-Z2103 after the expansion to Central and South Asia, although important pockets of Z2103 survived, notably in Bashkorostan, Turkmenistan and Uyghurstan (Chinese Turkestan).
R1b-Z2103 would have become an Indo-Iranian lineage like R1a-Z93. This is true of two Z2103 subclades in particular: L277.1 and L584. The former is found in Russia to Central Asia then to India and the Middle East, just like the R1a-L657 subclade of Z93. It can be associated with the Andronovo culture and Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex, as well as the Indo-Aryan migrations. R1b-L584 is found especially in Iran, northern Iraq, the South Caucasus and Turkey, and correlates more with the Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans, which includes Persians, Kurds and Scythians.
The Hittites (c. 2000-1178 BCE) were the first Indo-Europeans to defy (and defeat) the mighty Mesopotamian and Egyptian empires. There are two hypotheses regarding the origins of the Hittites. The first is that they came from the eastern Balkans and invaded Anatolia by crossing the Bosphorus. That would mean that they belonged either to the L23* or the Z2103 subclade. The other plausible scenario is that they were an offshoot of the late Maykop culture, and that they crossed the Caucasus to conquer the Hattian kingdom (perhaps after being displaced from the North Caucasus by the R1a people of the Catacomb culture). In that case the Hittites might have belonged to the R1b-M269* or the R1b-M73 subclade. The first hypothesis has the advantage of having a single nucleus, the Balkans, as the post-Yamna expansion of all Indo-European R1b. The Maykop hypothesis, on the other hand, would explain why the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, Palaic) is so archaic compared to other Indo-European languages, which would have originated in Yamna rather than Maykop.
There is substantial archaeological and linguistic evidence that Troy was an Indo-European city associated with the steppe culture and haplogroup R1b. The Trojans were Luwian speakers related to the Hittites (hence Indo-European), with attested cultural ties to the culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. The first city of Troy dates back to 3000 BCE, right in the middle of the Maykop period. Troy might have been founded by Maykop people as a colony securing the trade routes between the Black Sea and the Aegean. The founding of Troy happens to coincide exactly with the time the first galleys were made. Considering the early foundation of Troy, the most likely of the two Indo-European paternal haplogroups would be R1b-M269 or L23.
The Phrygians and the Proto-Armenians are two other Indo-European tribes stemming from the Balkans. Both appear to have migrated to Anatolia around 1200 BCE, during the 'great upheavals' of the Eastern Mediterranean (see below). The Phrygians (or Bryges) founded a kingdom (1200-700 BCE) in west central Anatolia, taking over most of the crumbling Hittite Empire. The Armenians crossed all Anatolia until Lake Van and settled in the Armenian Highlands. Nowadays 30% of Armenian belong to haplogroup R1b, the vast majority to the L23 subclade (=> see The Indo-European migrations to Armenia).
Most of the R1b found in Greece today is of the Balkanic Z2103 variety. There is also a minority of Proto-Celtic S116/P312 and of Italic/Alpine Celtic S28/U152. L23 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE. Their language appear to have been close enough to Mycenaean Greek to be mutually intelligible and easy for locals to adopt. The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (M269 or L23) to Greece, but their origins can be traced back through archaeology to the Catacomb culture and the Seima-Turbino phenomenon of the northern forest-steppe, which would make them primarily an R1a1a tribe.
Greek and Anatolian S116 and some S28 lineages could be attributed to the La Tène Celtic invasions of the 3rd century BCE. The Romans also certainly brought S28 lineages (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), and probably also the Venetians later on, notably on the islands. Older clades of R1b, such as P25 and V88, are only a small minority and would have come along E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Middle East.
Nema logike da su "germanska" i "romanska" R1b brojnije od "balkanske" L23.
Haak et al. (2015) tested six Y-DNA samples from the eastern reaches of Yamna culture, in the Volga-Ural region, and all of them turned out to belong to haplogroup R1b. Four of them were positive for the Z2103 mutation. IN all likelihood, R1b-Z2103 was a major lineage of the Poltavka culture, which succeeded to the Yamna culture between the Volga River and the Ural mountains. It eventually merged with the Abashevo culture (presumably belonging chiefly to R1a-Z93) to form the Sintashta culture. Through a founder effect or through political domination, R1a-Z93 lineages would have outnumbered R1b-Z2103 after the expansion to Central and South Asia, although important pockets of Z2103 survived, notably in Bashkorostan, Turkmenistan and Uyghurstan (Chinese Turkestan).
R1b-Z2103 would have become an Indo-Iranian lineage like R1a-Z93. This is true of two Z2103 subclades in particular: L277.1 and L584. The former is found in Russia to Central Asia then to India and the Middle East, just like the R1a-L657 subclade of Z93. It can be associated with the Andronovo culture and Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex, as well as the Indo-Aryan migrations. R1b-L584 is found especially in Iran, northern Iraq, the South Caucasus and Turkey, and correlates more with the Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans, which includes Persians, Kurds and Scythians.
The Hittites (c. 2000-1178 BCE) were the first Indo-Europeans to defy (and defeat) the mighty Mesopotamian and Egyptian empires. There are two hypotheses regarding the origins of the Hittites. The first is that they came from the eastern Balkans and invaded Anatolia by crossing the Bosphorus. That would mean that they belonged either to the L23* or the Z2103 subclade. The other plausible scenario is that they were an offshoot of the late Maykop culture, and that they crossed the Caucasus to conquer the Hattian kingdom (perhaps after being displaced from the North Caucasus by the R1a people of the Catacomb culture). In that case the Hittites might have belonged to the R1b-M269* or the R1b-M73 subclade. The first hypothesis has the advantage of having a single nucleus, the Balkans, as the post-Yamna expansion of all Indo-European R1b. The Maykop hypothesis, on the other hand, would explain why the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, Palaic) is so archaic compared to other Indo-European languages, which would have originated in Yamna rather than Maykop.
There is substantial archaeological and linguistic evidence that Troy was an Indo-European city associated with the steppe culture and haplogroup R1b. The Trojans were Luwian speakers related to the Hittites (hence Indo-European), with attested cultural ties to the culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. The first city of Troy dates back to 3000 BCE, right in the middle of the Maykop period. Troy might have been founded by Maykop people as a colony securing the trade routes between the Black Sea and the Aegean. The founding of Troy happens to coincide exactly with the time the first galleys were made. Considering the early foundation of Troy, the most likely of the two Indo-European paternal haplogroups would be R1b-M269 or L23.
The Phrygians and the Proto-Armenians are two other Indo-European tribes stemming from the Balkans. Both appear to have migrated to Anatolia around 1200 BCE, during the 'great upheavals' of the Eastern Mediterranean (see below). The Phrygians (or Bryges) founded a kingdom (1200-700 BCE) in west central Anatolia, taking over most of the crumbling Hittite Empire. The Armenians crossed all Anatolia until Lake Van and settled in the Armenian Highlands. Nowadays 30% of Armenian belong to haplogroup R1b, the vast majority to the L23 subclade (=> see The Indo-European migrations to Armenia).
Most of the R1b found in Greece today is of the Balkanic Z2103 variety. There is also a minority of Proto-Celtic S116/P312 and of Italic/Alpine Celtic S28/U152. L23 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE. Their language appear to have been close enough to Mycenaean Greek to be mutually intelligible and easy for locals to adopt. The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (M269 or L23) to Greece, but their origins can be traced back through archaeology to the Catacomb culture and the Seima-Turbino phenomenon of the northern forest-steppe, which would make them primarily an R1a1a tribe.
Greek and Anatolian S116 and some S28 lineages could be attributed to the La Tène Celtic invasions of the 3rd century BCE. The Romans also certainly brought S28 lineages (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), and probably also the Venetians later on, notably on the islands. Older clades of R1b, such as P25 and V88, are only a small minority and would have come along E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Middle East.
Nema logike da su "germanska" i "romanska" R1b brojnije od "balkanske" L23.
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ostale funkcije su na definitivno boljem nivou od pamcenjaПамћење те не вара, а надам се да су ти и остале функције на истом нивоу
jedan od velikih nedostataka tog istrazivanja je i to sto je 4,9% testiranih Srba svrstano u pseudohaplogrupu F*, i cak 7,4% u hg K*. To je ukupno 12,3% ljudi za koje je jedino sigurno da ne pripadaju hg E, dok su sve posle nje u igri. To opet znaci da je medju njima moglo biti jos nosilaca hg R1b.
ti si lepo neki dan primeto sta je bilo vazno postici sa ovim radom. A to stoji i u samom radu:
pametnom dosta
mada su konacni rezultati prikazani na grafikonu dosta tragikomicni
Ispadose Bosniacs najblizi Srbima, Ukrajinci blizi Hrvatima iz RH od Skutora, cak i B/H Srbi blizi Hrvatima iz RH od najvecih hrvatina na planeti
Slazem se. Inace, kada ga vec toliko spominjemo, evo i njegove fotografije:
jos jedan Bane
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Prema mom vidjenju realno je da je R-U152 (tj R-S28) na jugoistok Evrope dosla sa Keltima.
Inace nema sumnje da, osim na krajnjem zapadu Balkana, ovde preovladjuje R-M269(xL51) (istocna), u poredjenju sa R-L51 (kod nas poznatija kao zapadna).
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Ti izgleda nisi u toku, kao da nisi aktivan na forum poreklo. Polako biće rezultata, knjiga sa više od 1100 ispitanika trebalo bi da izađe za koji mesec. Preporučujem ti pogledaj onaj video klip kojeg si okačio ovde na forum. Dr. Todorović je rekao sledeće u vezi haplogrupe R1b: Zapadna varijanta R1b je sveprisutna kod Srba, dakle ona je praktično sistemska kod Srba ima je tu hegde oko 5% i to ubedljivo najmanje u kosovsko-resavskoj i tu je jako retka ali je zato ima jako puno na samoj granici između istočno-hercegovački i šumadijski govor tu je ima jako puno, ima je po istočnoj Srbiji prilično, ima je u severnoj Srbiji, Vojvodini prilično ima je praktično svuda, eto to je to ukratko.
Памћење те не вара, а надам се да су ти и остале функције на истом нивоу
У Марјановићевом истраживању од 2005-е, тестираних који су се изјаснили као Срби је било укупно 81, од чега су њих 5 сврстано у хаплугрупу R1b. Дакле 6,17%.
Тестираних који су се изјаснили као Бошњаци је било укупно 85, од чега су њих 3 сврстани у хаплогрупу R1b. Дакле 3,53%.
Тестираних који су се изјаснили као Хрвати је било укупно 90, од чега су њих двојица сврстани у хаплогрупу R1b. Дакле 2,22%.
У хаплогрупу R1b су сврстани сви они испитаници, чији је узорак позитивно одговорио на тестирање на Y-SNP М269. То би била хаплогрупа која је у садашњој верзији ISOGG стабла означена са R1b1a2, као и, наравно, све њене низводне подгрупе.
И ови резултати који се, највјероватније, не поклапају са стварном ситуацијом, су посљедица неравномјерног узимања узорака по регијама у БИХ.
Толико велики удио R1b међу онима који су се изјаснили као Срби, проузрокован је тиме што је већина тих људи поријеклом из западне Босне и сјеверне Босне.
Одлично. Кор се још позива на намештена истраживања, искрено ја не узимам баш за озбиљно та анонимно истраживања на 100 или 200 узорака на нивоу државе или народа. Него господине Кадијевићу које су ваше претпоставке о хаплогрупи Р1а у Херцеговини? За сад сте једини из Херцеговине са лозом L366, додуше има још један тестирани из Срема и припада истој подграни као и ви и колико ја знам старином је од Гацка. Осим L366 сигурно знате да се у Херцеговини појавио и CTS1121 Шаренац из Билеће, онда Драшковићи М458, ту је Радовић такође М458 из Фоче можемо да кажемо да је и он из неке продужене Херцеговине. Шта ви мислите колико процената може да достигне хаплогрупа Р1а у Херцеговини ?
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vinodol
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Tome bih dodao i nedostatak pripadnika G2a grupe u Bosni i Hrvatskoj sem par pripadnika roda A koji su verovatno stigli odjednom krajem 16 veka. Tu grupu, prema dosad dostupnim podacima povezujemo sa Keltima.
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Kelti su izgleda dosta kompleksna stvar. Na zapadu evrope su nedvosmisleno dominantni R1b ali prema istoku... pitanje je.Skordisci su Kelti a koji im je geneticki sastav, ja bas nisam siguran.
Logicno da nisam aktivan. Poreklo zahteva mnogo vise vremena od ove teme. Tamo kada udjes, ne izlazi se lako dok se ne odgovori na bar 10 postova ))
Pa vec sam napisao da sam pogledao, bolje reci, poslusao (a zato sam ga i postavio) ali sam nesto radio i slusao sta se prica.
Ja cu oslanjajuci se na logiku da osporim da je u istocnoj Srbiji dominantiji "zapadni" R1b od xL23. Zato sam i postavio one karte gore koje jasno govore da ne moze biti govora o nekoj dominacijei zapadnog tipa R1b nad istocnim. Rec "sveprisutna" je dosta apstraktnog karaktera. Dacani i Tracani nisu bili U106, S21 ili sta ti ja znam koji. Da je u zapadnom delu Srbije prisutniji, to bi odgovaralo logici. Na istoku svakako ne.
R1b nije sporna kao haplogrupa. Sporno je ono sto ti navodno citiras Todorovica da je dominantna "zapadna" varijanta. U Rumuniji, Bugarskoj, Grckoj i Albaniji nije a da u nas bude. Tim pre na istoku zemlje. Smesno.
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Ne poziva se na "namestena" vec na tendenciozna istrazivanja. Da su namestena, onda bi lepo platili 50 bantu crnaca i dokazali da Srbi nemaju blagu vezu sa ostala dva naroda. Ovako se to lepo "fingira" ili "spinuje" u pravcu koji ti je politicki pozeljan. Ne treba biti mnogo pametan pa da se iza Primorca ne uoci snazan uticaj Starcevicevih ideja.
Šta kaže ovo novo istraživanje, u vezi koga si postavljao link?
Ako se dobro sećam lik reče da je zapadna svugde oko 5%, osim Kosova i ... gde imamo odsustvo ove hg.
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vinodol
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Na kraju linka nalazi se jedan zgodan deo gde autor govori kako su nakon rimskog napada 28 godine pne Kelti povukli u negostoljubive predele Trakije (na istok). Verovatno se deo povukao i prema zapadu.
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianScordisci.htm
Izvorno, Kelti su R1b. Kelto-latini.
Kasnije se etmonim širi i na neke druge populacije.
Skordiske npr, koji su nastavljači Keltske popitičke orgsnizacije, sa neznatnim ostatcima izvornih Kelta.
Kasnije se etmonim širi i na neke druge populacije.
Skordiske npr, koji su nastavljači Keltske popitičke orgsnizacije, sa neznatnim ostatcima izvornih Kelta.
Sweden Motala [2] M 5898-5531 BC I2c2 PF3827+, L597+, P38+, U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37- U2e1 C16527T Lazaridis 2013; Haak 2015
Turkey Barcın [I1096/BAR26/M10-76] M 6500-6200 BC I2c L596, L597 N1a1a1 Mathieson 2015
Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0724/T2 / UP] M 6400-500 BC I CTS6231 K1a4 Mathieson 2015
Ovo je na Mramornom moru, blizu Instabula.
Turkey Barcın [I1096/BAR26/M10-76] M 6500-6200 BC I2c L596, L597 N1a1a1 Mathieson 2015
Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0724/T2 / UP] M 6400-500 BC I CTS6231 K1a4 Mathieson 2015
Ovo je na Mramornom moru, blizu Instabula.
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Kažu da smo belci zbog neanderalaca.
Nije mi najjasnije kako je moguće da nema neardetalskih HG u do sada urađenim istraživanjima.
http://dienekes.blogspot.rs/2015/11/selection-against-neandertal.html
Nije mi najjasnije kako je moguće da nema neardetalskih HG u do sada urađenim istraživanjima.
http://dienekes.blogspot.rs/2015/11/selection-against-neandertal.html
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