De administrando imperio

Čovek je maštovit, slažem se. U predgovoru GRS čak i pojašnjava tj. brani svoju ideju rekonstrukcije događaja.

Međutim, ovde je izuzetno ubedljiv.

Pa to je u DAI. Car to kaze, ne kaze Zivkovic niti je Zivkovic ubjedljiv nego Car to sinu kaze crno na bijelo. Ocigledno su Visevici naznaceni kao posebnog porijekla. Niko nije dolazio sa Visle osim njih, Visla nije pored Franaka 950. godine.
A te mastovite teze o tome ko je to "Caru" rekao, to su izmisljotine da se nesto originalno fantazira. Kriminal.
 
Не, него традиција која се усмено преносила и о којој није остало сачуванох писаних извора, што не значи да сигурно нису постојали.


Схваташ ли ти да у супротном Михаило дословно не би могао да добије титулу патрикија, што значи да би управо то било глупо тврдити?
Sve uredu, ali da mastarije i polufantazije zoves naukom, to je bas debilno.
 
Sve uredu, ali da mastarije i polufantazije zoves naukom, to je bas debilno.
Маштарија и полуфантазија је церемонија током које је Михаило морао да се представи и наведе своје порекло да би примио титулу?

Kako im nije palo na pamet da je tu tradiciju caru saopstio Nikita patrijarh. Mislim on je bas bio blizak caru, mnogo blizi nego Mihajlo Visevic.. ☺
Мислим, није искључено да је и он могао, зар не?
 
Маштарија и полуфантазија је церемонија током које је Михаило морао да се представи и наведе своје порекло да би примио титулу?


Мислим, није искључено да је и он могао, зар не?
Pa on je sigurno. Nije bio na veceri kao Mihajlo vec je godinama sedeo pored cara. Verovatno su se u nekom od razgovora dotakli teme Nikitinog porekla.
Kada je ispricao caru poreklo svog naroda, obojica su se nasmejala i zacudila cinjenici da ti istoriju niko nije zapisao. Mrzelo je i tog cara da zapise, ali pricalo se o tome po kuloarima dvora. I tako sve do Porfirogenita koji je rekao, jbt ako ja ne zapisem istoriju Srba to ce se zaboraviti.....
 
I tako sve do Porfirogenita koji je rekao, jbt ako ja ne zapisem istoriju Srba to ce se zaboraviti.....

Po Caru Porfirogenitu, Jesu li Slaveni u Dalmaciji od pada Rima do Iraklija?
Po Vladimiru Corovicu, Jesu li Slaveni u Dalmaciji od pada Rima do Iraklija?

Po Caru Porfirogenitu, gdje su Slaveni u vrijeme pada Rima?
Po Porfirogenitu, ko je srusio rimsko carstvo?
A ko po Vladimiru Corovicu i Tiboru Zivkovicu?
 
Poslednja izmena:
Pa to je u DAI. Car to kaze, ne kaze Zivkovic niti je Zivkovic ubjedljiv nego Car to sinu kaze crno na bijelo. Ocigledno su Visevici naznaceni kao posebnog porijekla. Niko nije dolazio sa Visle osim njih, Visla nije pored Franaka 950. godine.
A te mastovite teze o tome ko je to "Caru" rekao, to su izmisljotine da se nesto originalno fantazira. Kriminal.

Šta je Mihailo rekao u Carigradu, pred carem i patrijarhom? Kako se predstavio? Da kaže da je vladar Zahumljana, suštinski je nebitno. Romei te titule kakve god da su nosili, ništa nisu priznvali; zvali su ih običnim arhontima na teritroiji koju su doživljavali kao sastavni deo Romejskog carstva. Ali ni to nije dovoljno, prosto, predstaviti se kao neki baja.

Šta kažeš ti, kad evo dođeš caru, kada treba da budeš primljen u najvišu zajednicu Romeja. Kada dobijaš izuzetno prestižnu titulu, kojom postaješ deo te porodice, sa senatorskim familijama; nasleđe klase patricija iz antičkog Rima, u kojoj je vrlo bitno bilo znati kog si roda i kakvog porekla?
 
Da, vidim. Ali čekaj, zar nije bila priča da niko sa filološkog aspekta nije istražio sam rukopis, i da se to koristilo za osporavanje da pripada grčkom jeziku X i XI veka? Odnosno, vezano za te priče da je navodno mnogo mlađi, falsifikat, itd..?
Kada si pomenuo "te priče" mislio si na Živkovića i njegovu konstataciju o odsustvu lingvističke analize DAI , a na njega sam i ja msilio.
 
To znači da je, zaista, i bio u Carigradu, na svečanoj ceremoniji.

Ne pise to. Ne izmisljajte.
Nije morao. Bio je vec knez. Otac mu je bio knez.
Patrikij i prokonzil su zazivotne titule, nenasljedne, i mogao mu je dati neki strategos u pregovorima zaduzen za ta podrucja. Titule su naravno bile popularne kao vid romejskog uticaja bas u ovo vrijeme borbi protiv Franaka za prevlast.
Jednostavno, ne pise, i dakle ne izmisljajte.
 
Ne pise to. Ne izmisljajte.
Nije morao. Bio je vec knez. Otac mu je bio knez.
Patrikij i prokonzil su zazivotne titule, nenasljedne, i mogao mu je dati neki strategos u pregovorima zaduzen za ta podrucja. Titule su naravno bile popularne kao vid romejskog uticaja bas u ovo vrijeme borbi protiv Franaka za prevlast.
Jednostavno, ne pise, i dakle ne izmisljajte.

Scott Isle, hajde pročitaj odeljak o tome kako se postaje patrikij u 48. gl. 1. knjige o ceremonijama u Romejskom carstvu (eng. prevod En Mofat i Maksim Tol):

Acclamation of the demes at the appointment of a patrician
When the customary ceremonial is completed in the Sacred Palace for the appointment of the patrician, the patrician goes out in the procession escorted by a silentiary, that is to say, with the silentiary carrying bis codicil, and he goes away to the Church of the Covered Hippodrome, to St Stephen's, and lights candles there. Escorted by title-holders he goes away to the Consistory and lights candles there and likewise in the Church of the Lord, and the title-holders and the shield-bearers of the arithmos and the palace-stewards of all the rooms and the constables stand at the Long Gallery of the Kandidatoi. The said patrician goes away, escorted by thern, up to the curtains of the bronze doors, and the admensounalios says, "Let him stop," and the noumerarios holds the curtain and says, "Raise it; patrician, take your place." Again, what the noumerarios says in a loud voice, the admensounalios says, and the patrician goes out and goes through the Scholai, that is to say, escorted by those mentioned previously. The faction of the Greens stands at the Church of the Holy Apostles at the Scholai and waits for the patrician. After the patrician has stood in his usual place, the deme recites, "Before all else, let us cheer the rulers of the empire." The cheerleaders: "Many years for so-and-so and so-and-so, great emperors and sovereigns!" The people three times likewise. The cheerleaders: "Many years for so-and-so and so-and so, most pious augoustai!" The people likewise three times. The cheerleaders: "Many years for those bom in the purple!" The people likewise three times. Then the cheerleaders recite acclamations in aloud voice: "Who would not glorify more the one immortal Emperor..." three times; "Who grants a title to those who are worthy," three times; "They have honoured you, so-and-so, wonderfully... " three times; "With the glorious title of patrician," three times; "May the creator and ruler of all multiply their years with the augoustai and those born in the purple!" After this the demarch hands the document to the patrician and the cheerleaders recite, "For ever, so-and-so, for ever, so and-so, for ever, so-and-so!" The people three times: "For ever, patrician, for ever!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, appointee of the benefactors!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, beloved of the lords!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, noble by descent!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, soand-so, patrician of the Romans!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome to the deme which loves you!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Rightly have the rulers loved you since you are irreproachable and worthy." The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "May the creator and ruler of all..." The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Guard you, patrician, for a great number of years!"

When the patrician moves away, the deme forms an escort in front of him, reciting an apelatikon, mode 4: "The all-wise benefactors, worthily crowned by the forethought on high, have honoured you with higher titles, so-and-so, as a most beloved servant, honoured protospatharios of noble descent, and have raised you up to a high honour and glory, the title of patrician." They lead him away, escorting him up to the reception of the Blues - at which point the poem is completed - and after its completion the cheerleaders recite, "For ever, holy God, save the patrician!" The people three times: "For ever, holy God!" The faction of the Blues receives him at the Chalke, and the ritual and ceremonial for the reception takes place as also for the earlier reception of the Greens, except that it recites the apelatikon, mode 4: "Those strengthened by God" - written above. He goes via the Chytos of the Chalke and goes into the Chapel of the Holy Well and lights candles, and after this he goes into the solea where the portable altar stands. The patriarch goes out from the sanctuary and takes his codicil and places it on the portable altar, then says the prayer, and after the prayer he hands the codicil to the patrician, and after he receives the codicil, the patrician places the purse on the portable altar. The patriarch goes into the sanctuary and goes away to the portable altar where he administers communion to the rulers on feast-days, and he administers communion to the patrician. After receiving communion the patrician goes away to the patricians' bench and puts on a true-purple sagion. Then he goes out from there and mounts his horse and goes away to his house, escorted by those mentioned previously4 and by the two demes, and each of them recites their particular apelatikon. The silentiary wears a deep-red sagion and he himself, on horseback, escorts the patrician, carrying bis codicil. After the patrician arrives at bis house, all those escorting him and the demes of the two factions turn back. The praipositoi and other patricians and holders of high office and the two demarchs and the silentiary dine with the patrician in bis house on the said day, and the praipositoi each receive two embroidered tunics ornamented with silk of three hues, and the demarchs receive striped cloaks.


Ovo ti je procedura dobijanja titule romejskog patrikija, zapisana u X stoleću.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Scott Isle, hajde pročitaj odeljak o tome kako se postaje patrikij u 48. gl. 1. knjige o ceremonijama u Romejskom carstvu (eng. prevod En Mofat i Maksim Tol):

Acclamation of the demes at the appointment of a patrician
When the customary ceremonial is completed in the Sacred Palace for the appointment of the patrician, the patrician goes out in the procession escorted by a silentiary, that is to say, with the silentiary carrying bis codicil, and he goes away to the Church of the Covered Hippodrome, to St Stephen's, and lights candles there. Escorted by title-holders he goes away to the Consistory and lights candles there and likewise in the Church of the Lord, and the title-holders and the shield-bearers of the arithmos and the palace-stewards of all the rooms and the constables stand at the Long Gallery of the Kandidatoi. The said patrician goes away, escorted by thern, up to the curtains of the bronze doors, and the admensounalios says, "Let him stop," and the noumerarios holds the curtain and says, "Raise it; patrician, take your place." Again, what the noumerarios says in a loud voice, the admensounalios says, and the patrician goes out and goes through the Scholai, that is to say, escorted by those mentioned previously. The faction of the Greens stands at the Church of the Holy Apostles at the Scholai and waits for the patrician. After the patrician has stood in his usual place, the deme recites, "Before all else, let us cheer the rulers of the empire." The cheerleaders: "Many years for so-and-so and so-and-so, great emperors and sovereigns!" The people three times likewise. The cheerleaders: "Many years for so-and-so and so-and so, most pious augoustai!" The people likewise three times. The cheerleaders: "Many years for those bom in the purple!" The people likewise three times. Then the cheerleaders recite acclamations in aloud voice: "Who would not glorify more the one immortal Emperor..." three times; "Who grants a title to those who are worthy," three times; "They have honoured you, so-and-so, wonderfully... " three times; "With the glorious title of patrician," three times; "May the creator and ruler of all multiply their years with the augoustai and those born in the purple!" After this the demarch hands the document to the patrician and the cheerleaders recite, "For ever, so-and-so, for ever, so and-so, for ever, so-and-so!" The people three times: "For ever, patrician, for ever!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, appointee of the benefactors!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, beloved of the lords!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, noble by descent!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome, soand-so, patrician of the Romans!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Welcome to the deme which loves you!" The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Rightly have the rulers loved you since you are irreproachable and worthy." The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "May the creator and ruler of all..." The people: "Welcome!" The cheerleaders: "Guard you, patrician, for a great number of years!"

When the patrician moves away, the deme forms an escort in front of him, reciting an apelatikon, mode 4: "The all-wise benefactors, worthily crowned by the forethought on high, have honoured you with higher titles, so-and-so, as a most beloved servant, honoured protospatharios of noble descent, and have raised you up to a high honour and glory, the title of patrician." They lead him away, escorting him up to the reception of the Blues - at which point the poem is completed - and after its completion the cheerleaders recite, "For ever, holy God, save the patrician!" The people three times: "For ever, holy God!" The faction of the Blues receives him at the Chalke, and the ritual and ceremonial for the reception takes place as also for the earlier reception of the Greens, except that it recites the apelatikon, mode 4: "Those strengthened by God" - written above. He goes via the Chytos of the Chalke and goes into the Chapel of the Holy Well and lights candles, and after this he goes into the solea where the portable altar stands. The patriarch goes out from the sanctuary and takes his codicil and places it on the portable altar, then says the prayer, and after the prayer he hands the codicil to the patrician, and after he receives the codicil, the patrician places the purse on the portable altar. The patriarch goes into the sanctuary and goes away to the portable altar where he administers communion to the rulers on feast-days, and he administers communion to the patrician. After receiving communion the patrician goes away to the patricians' bench and puts on a true-purple sagion. Then he goes out from there and mounts his horse and goes away to his house, escorted by those mentioned previously4 and by the two demes, and each of them recites their particular apelatikon. The silentiary wears a deep-red sagion and he himself, on horseback, escorts the patrician, carrying bis codicil. After the patrician arrives at bis house, all those escorting him and the demes of the two factions turn back. The praipositoi and other patricians and holders of high office and the two demarchs and the silentiary dine with the patrician in bis house on the said day, and the praipositoi each receive two embroidered tunics ornamented with silk of three hues, and the demarchs receive striped cloaks.


Ovo ti je procedura dobijanja pozicije patrikija, zapisana u X stoleću.
Koja je procedura pri izboru patrijarha u 8. stolecu?
 
Ne pise to. Ne izmisljajte.
Nije morao. Bio je vec knez. Otac mu je bio knez.
Patrikij i prokonzil su zazivotne titule, nenasljedne, i mogao mu je dati neki strategos u pregovorima zaduzen za ta podrucja. Titule su naravno bile popularne kao vid romejskog uticaja bas u ovo vrijeme borbi protiv Franaka za prevlast.
Jednostavno, ne pise, i dakle ne izmisljajte.

Ne pričaj koješta. Nikakav strateg mu nije mogao dati tu titulu. Titule patrikija i antipata su bile među najvišim počastima. Vrlo se retko to davalo tako nekim strancima. Već sam ti rekao koje je poreklo naziva patrikija; od roda patricija još iz stare rimske republike. Kao formalnu titulu standardizovao je Konstantin Veliki da označi vanrednu počast u Carstvu. Nije mogao niko ispod samog romejskog cara to dati i svakako ne pregovorima negde van.

Iznad sam ti uostalom postavio i iz Spisa o ceremonijama celu tačnu proceduru kroz koju se prolazi da bi se aklamacijom potvrdio status patrikija. Prvo ide ceremonija u svetoj palati, u kojoj ga car imenuje, a onda ide na potvrdu od strane naroda. I ide cela procesija...sa svim recitovanjima, uz molivu vaseljenskog patrijarha, demarh mu uručuje dokument, itd...

Dakle, da zaključimo, zahumski arhont morao je doći i lično u Carigrad i proći kroz ceremoniju da bi postao patrikij. I u ovoj ceremoniji, podrazumeva se da se predstavio, a to znači ne samo da je naveo ko mu je otac, već i od kojih je on. A to sve savršeno objašnjava otkud taj inače neobični podatak u DAI.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ovo ti je procedura dobijanja pozicije patrikija, zapisana u X stoleću.

Jednostavno, ne pise! Je li moguce da je isao na dvor on ili otac mu? Jeste. Je li moguce da nije? Jeste.
Je li moguce da mu je deda isao? Jeste.
Okanite se izmisljotina.
To sto postoji procedura ne znaci da je ovaj prosao kroz proceduru.

Ali je fino naglaseno da su se borili protiv Saracena, a u to vrijeme borbi protiv Saracema u Italiji, mnogi knezevi Mediterana koji su se borili su dobiljali pocasne titule patrikija i prokonzula kao saveznici.
 
Jednostavno, ne pise! Je li moguce da je isao na dvor on ili otac mu? Jeste. Je li moguce da nije? Jeste.
Je li moguce da mu je deda isao? Jeste.
Okanite se izmisljotina.
To sto postoji procedura ne znaci da je ovaj prosao kroz proceduru.
Уразуми се. Ако је добио титулу, морао је да прође кроз процедуру.

Ali je fino naglaseno da su se borili protiv Saracena, a u to vrijeme borbi protiv Saracema u Italiji, mnogi knezevi Mediterana koji su se borili su dobiljali pocasne titule patrikija i prokonzula kao saveznici.
Ако јесу, и они су прошли кроз процедуру.
 
Pa to je u DAI. Car to kaze, ne kaze Zivkovic niti je Zivkovic ubjedljiv nego Car to sinu kaze crno na bijelo. Ocigledno su Visevici naznaceni kao posebnog porijekla. Niko nije dolazio sa Visle osim njih, Visla nije pored Franaka 950. godine.
A te mastovite teze o tome ko je to "Caru" rekao, to su izmisljotine da se nesto originalno fantazira. Kriminal.
То је само , што би рекли бебејци, "пучка етимологија".
Вишевић долази са отока Вис или са Висле или са планине Висока, само зато што му презиме почиње на Вис. Правилније би било да стиже из Вишеграда, јер ипак му презиме на Виш.
Исто тако "учено" је да "Травунија на језику Словена значи утврђено место, и то зато што у земљи има много утврђења.". затим "Конавље на језику Словена значи теретна кола, због тога што је земља равна па они све своје послове обављају употребљавајући кола."..
 
То је само , што би рекли бебејци, "пучка етимологија".
Вишевић долази са отока Вис или са Висле или са планине Висока, само зато што му презиме почиње на Вис. Правилније би било да стиже из Вишеграда, јер ипак му презиме на Виш.

Nije. Receno je da je porodica Mihajla od "nekrstenih sa Visle, zvanih Litziki."
Etimologija imena nije naznacena u DAI. Spis je na grckom pa pise da je otac Mihajla knez "Bouseboutze." "Visevici" su nasa konstrukcija, pretpostavka, ali to ne pise u DAI. Za otok Vis u spisu pise Ies.
 
То је само , што би рекли бебејци, "пучка етимологија".
Вишевић долази са отока Вис или са Висле или са планине Висока, само зато што му презиме почиње на Вис. Правилније би било да стиже из Вишеграда, јер ипак му презиме на Виш.
Исто тако "учено" је да "Травунија на језику Словена значи утврђено место, и то зато што у земљи има много утврђења.". затим "Конавље на језику Словена значи теретна кола, због тога што је земља равна па они све своје послове обављају употребљавајући кола."..

@Scott Isle je u pravu. To nije nikakvo prezime. U tekstu baš stoji, sin tog čoveka. Nema razloga da se to računa u nekakvu pučku etimologiju.
 

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