„Bečko-berlinska škola” vs novoromantičari

[Aranko]

P. S. Moje histerisanje javlja se samo kada je neko strašno nepristojan, a posebno je na vrhuncu kada neko brutalno laže. Ne znam da li me išta više od toga nervira.

Е кад би ми слично реаговали на све твоје преваре, лажи, итд... Спусти бре мало лопту, схвати да ти је време истекло и тражи други посао.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Е кад би ми слично реаговали на све твоје преваре, лажи, итд... Спусти бре мало лопту, схвати да ти је време истекло и тражи други посао.

Razlika između mojih i tvojih „laži” i „prevara” na račun drugih forumaša jeste u tome što kad god treba dokazati nešto i kad kod padnu tvoje optužbe na moj račun, uvek iz misterioznih razloga se ili ne da ili nema vremena, itd. svaku optužbu elaborisati, odbraniti i iza nje stati. A u slučaju tvojih, red je o pisanim rečima koje su javno dostupne, sa sve vezama ka tvojim objavama i argumentovanim demantovanjem svake tvoje tvrdnje. Ako mislš da će u ovoj prepisci apsolutno jedan jedini razumni čovek ko naleti na ove strane i pročita kako je diskusija išla biti na tvojoj strani (ili da je tako nešto, uopšte, fizički i moguće), jednostavno se grdno varaš.

Dakle, kada te neko ogoli u potpunosti i suoči sa sirovom istinom, to je tebi toliko strano i nepojmljivo da uopšte nisi sposoban ni da svariš, a kamoli i konstatuješ (vratiš reči, priznaš krivicu i tražiš oproštaj od onih o koje si se ogrešio, što bi svaki elementarno pristojan čovek s kućnim manirim učinio)... Nego, tvoja je jedina diskusiona taktika — pravljenje ludim.

 

[Kole11]

Не нису прочитај они никад нису били покорени а Авари су предузимали више казнених експедиција али су само проналазили духове.

Ne, ni u jednom grčkom spisu nema reči o vlaškim Slovenima. To je dodatak i tumačenje prevodioca i to je duboko ukorenjeno u prosveti kao činjenica ali bez ikakvog osnova.

Ti si jednostavno na to naštelovan, kao što smo obojica bili naštelovani na Pripjat kao ishodište. Potrebno je vreme za resetovanje ali polako.

Romeji su držali samo utvrdjene gradove na crnomorskoj obali i u donjem podunavlju. Samo su u tim gradovima bili sigurni, medjutim kretanje između njih je bilo krajnje nesigurno zato što su na čitavoj teritoriji Trakije i Ilirika delovala pobunjena plemena Slovena.
Kada su ti Sloveni počeli da prave više problema i da se šire prema grčkom kopnu, Romeji su pozvali Avare u pomoć i prevezli ih preko Dunava da pomognu u disciplinovanju.

Nikakve akcije niti Romeja niti Avara nije bilo protiv vlaških Slovena. Romeji su samo jednom prešli Dunav i to na kratko zbog sukoba sa Avarima u kasnijem periodu, za vreme Mavrikija kada su se odnosi pogoršali.

Sve interpretacije za koje si čuo, odnosno da su Romeji prelazili Dunav svako malo i tamo jurili vlaške Slovene, apsolutno ništa od toga nije tačno. Prvo to je bila avarska teritorija, drugo čak ni silni Justinijan se nije zanimao za preko dunavske teritorije a kamoli jedan slabi Mavrikije koga je na kraju pogubila njegova vojska.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Simpatično je koliko si uporan u frustriranosti pa ću te stoga malo podučiti.

Kurta osim ovoga prihvata i da je prvobitna Moravija bila u Češkoj, takođe na bazi distorziranih prevoda, iako on sam kaže da kod prevoda Simokate nisu čista posla.
Za njegovu teoriju nije bitno kada su Sklaveni prešli Dunav, jer ionako taj dogadjaj je minorno ili nije uopšte uticao na etnogenezu balkanskih naroda. Migrirao je sam naziv Sklaveni, a ne ljudi fizički, kad porasteš još malo shvatićeš.

Međutim na jednom mestu mu je zasmetala distorzija pa se in pozabavio izvornim grčkim tekstom i lupio je dosta packi jednom tvom ideološkom sabratu iz Grčke. Naime Simokata je naveo Sklaviniju kao državnu zajednicu, što mnogi ne žele da prihvate. Nakon nekoliko rundi prepisivanja sa Kurtom dotični Grk je ostao pri svom mišljenju da je Simokata naziv Sklavinija koristio da označi bandu Sklavena, a ne državnu tvorevinu.

I tako, Rumun uči Grka grčkom pismu, ali ne vredi, takva vam je izgleda ideologija, fanatična i beskrupulozna.

Ja počinjem, nažalost, ovde da uvidim jednu šemu.

1. U ovu diskusiju sam se uključio u petak, kada sam osudio tvoje prekrajanje jednog citata Menandra Protektora. Na insistiranje moje da čujem čiji je prevod i kako se do njega došlo, ti si krenuo da praviš nekakve nejasne komparacije sa Mavrikijevim Strategikonom.
2. Potom, iako se ne odričeš svojih prvobitnih izrazito kontroverznih tvrdnji nastalih bez znanja jezika i nekakvog čitanja napamet pojedinih reči, prelaziš sa Menandra van ikakvog konteksta na Malalu. Prethodna nit diskusije se prekida i ubacuje se nova, tako što se pominju stvari koje su sve već redom bile predmet diskusije. Dakle imamo prekid u diskusiji tako što se oživljavaju prežvakane stvari i diskusija vraća unatrag kao da dalje potom nije trajala uopšte.
3. Sada se sve to još jednom prekida i prelazimo na novu metu; na Teofilakta Simokatu.

Ono što meni deluje jeste da ovde imamo orkestrirano skakanje sa teme na temu, tako što se čim se jedna zagrebe, odmah menjamo temu i skačemo na neku sledeću i tako iznova i iznova. To je, rekao bih, neki vid taktike u diskusiji. Da to vrlo često radiš, svaki put izbegavajući suštinu, može se primetiti na temi o Aleksandru Mitiću, na kojoj si istrgnuo iz konteksta moje objašnjenje Mrkalju povodom njegovih (ali i Mitićevih) pogrešnih tumačenja Orbinija. Iako je potpuno nebitno da li su Sloveni imali i kakve robove, radi li se tu o falsifikatu, o potpunoj spekulaciji (kog god) autora, ti si počeo da pričaš o nekakvoj modi nabijanja na kolac i da citiraš Evagrija Sholastika i Prokopija, da bi potom čak upitao jesam li čitao Tajnu istoriju.

 

[Kole11]

@NickFreak

Evo Friče, Kenet Seton polovinom prošlog veka piše da se 578. godine operacija Avara protiv Slovena nije odigrala u Vlaškoj, već u Trakiji.

In the year 578, as we have already noted, when Tiberius Constantine was in his fourth year as Caesar and co-ruler with Justin II, a horde of some hundred thousand Slavs, according to Menander, gathered in Thrace, which they ravaged, together with 'many other places’. [60] They apparently forced the pass of Thermopylae, because they 'plundered Greece.' [61] Tiberius, of course, was occupied with the Persians in the east, and the Balkan provinces were in the gravest peril (579-80), but Baïan, the khagan of the Avars, when appealed to by Tiberius, entered the stricken provinces as their defender, for he bore much animus against the Slavs himself, and was pleased to assail them, and to relieve them of the booty they had accumulated


Dakle to je normalan, razuman prevod Menanderovih reči. Ali ovakvu interpretaciju nigde nećeš videti, već svi ponavljaju kao papagaji besmislicu da su Avari dva puta prelazili Dunav pa napali Slovene u Vlaškoj.

Razlog je očigledan, pomenuti staništa Slovena južno od Dunava pre 600. godine je jeres. Kad vidim ovakvo prekrajanje izvora, iskreno osetim mučninu

 

[NickFreakyrgios]

Да , међутим то није исти догађај прављење понтона и прелазак на бизантијску територију је други догађај а тамо очигледно живе неки Словени који су кагану Бајанј одбили да плате данак.

 

[Kole11]

Да , међутим то није исти догађај прављење понтона и прелазак на бизантијску територију је други догађај а тамо очигледно живе неки Словени који су кагану Бајанј одбили да плате данак.

Taj dogadjaj se odigrao već naredne godine, dakle 579. Avari prave most na Savi, onosno to za njih rade pokoreni panonski Sloveni, Romani pravljenje tog mosta dozivljavaju kao pretnju. Medjutim, Bajan opravdava gradjenje mosta zbog neophodnosti rata protiv Slovena i podseca Romeje kako su ga prošle godine morali prevoziti preko Dunava, pa sada sa ovim mostom za tim nema potrebe.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Za nekoliko dana, 15. aprila, počnje podcast u organizaciji Kluba studenata arheologije i etnologije i antropologije FF Univerziteta u Beogradu. Prva će tema biti nauka vs. pseudonauka.

Pogledajte prilog 904614

Prvi gosti biće Marko Porčić i Monika Milosavljević.

[..]

Izašla i druga epizodica.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

 

[Kole11]

Pošto su Sklaveni pljačkali Grčku 578. godine dok Romeji nisu bili u stanju da im se suprotstave, Romeji su odlučili da zamole Avare za pomoć. Kagan se odazvao pozivu, ali nije znao kako da predje Dunav. Stoga su Romeji dali Kaganu logističku pomoć u vidu čamaca i prevezli njegovu vojsku preko Dunava kako bi Avari napali sklavenska sela i naterali njihove sunarodnike da se vrate iz pljačke koju su činili po grčkoj.

Menander piše o tom dogadjaju sledeće:

και λέ γεται αμφι τας ξιλιάδες ιπσέων θωρακο φόρων έστ ρωμαίων διαπορθμθήνα. ενθένδεν αύθις διαττ ίλλυριών διαγαγών, είτα ες ή σκυθών αφικόμενος, έμπαλιν διελθείν παρεσκευασετίστον, ένηκαλεμέναις αμφιπτύμνοις ή νε ών, επήδη και έπαιρεώθη ες το κατάντικρυξρείθρου

Priredjivač Kairns prevodi:

He came to the land of Pannonia and transported Baian himself and the Avar forces to Roman territory, ferrying the multitude of barbarians in the so-called 'large transports'. It is said that about sixty thousand armoured horsemen were brought across to Roman territory. From there Baian crossed Illyricum, reached Scythia and prepared to re-cross the Danube in the so-called 'double-sterned' ships

Drugim rečima, Kairns nas obaveštava kako su Romeji dva puta prevezli 60.000 Avara preko Dunava, prvi put negde kod Panonije, nakon čega su Avari konjima išli do Skitije, gde su ih potom Romeji ponovo prevezli preko Dunava u Dakiju da bi se obračunali sa tamošnjim Sklavenima.

Na mapi to bi ovako izgledalo:

Pogledajte prilog 925460

Dakle Sklaveni su na pohod u Grčku krenuli iz Dakije, sa leve strane donjeg toka Dunava, a Avari su došli na to mesto da im opljačkaju sela, dva puta prelazeći Dunav uz asistenciju romejskih čamdžija. Kada su Sklaveni u Grčkoj čuli za ovaj događaj, brže bolje su se vratili u Dakiju.


Rekao bih da se u pojedinim primerima prevoda Menandera i Simokate radi o klasičnoj zloupotrebi istorijskog spisa u službi pseudonauke...

Do kakvih sve smešnih i tragikomičnih situacija dovode netačni prevodi, čudo jedno. Kurta je deo establišmenta i naravno prihvata bez provere prevode svojih kolega, u ovom sučaju Kairnsa koji je preoveo Menandera i Vitbija koji je preveo Simokatu. Oba ova prevodioca su smestila zemlju Slovena severno od Dunava, mimo evidencije, tvrdim.

Poznato je da Grci insistiraju da Sloveni nisu imali državno uređenje sve do 9.veka, jer su toliko bili divlji da im je trebalo više od 300. godina da se civilizuju. Tako je Kurta ušao u polemiku sa Gucikostasom, koji ne prihvata ono što je očigledno, tj da je Simokata pisao o slovenskoj državi i kralju.
Ali druga stvar je ovde bitna, Vitbi je smestio zemlju Slovena severno od Dunava, tu su Romeji trebali da prezime 602. godine. U isto vreme Avari napadaju Ante i sada čovek ne zna da li da se smeje ili da plače, Kurta kaže kako bi Avari trebali da pređu preko slovenske zemlje da bi napali Ante ali oni to nisu mogli jer su tamo bili Romeji, pa su Avari tako verovatno prešli Dunav pa južnom stranom došli do Anta.

Dakle ovo je drugi put da Avari duplo prelaze Dunav, ovaj put da napadnu Ante i to bez romejskih čamaca. BB naučna metodologija na delu po ko zna koji put

https://www.redalyc.org/pdf/3638/363855433010.pdf

In other words, although the lands north of the river Danube were recognized as being under Avar control, the Romans were allowed to cross the river in order to attack those lands that were inhabited by Slavs. There was no Avaria north of the river Danube, because one part of it was a formerly Roman territory that had been temporarily assigned to the Avars, while the other was “the lands of the Sclavenes” (τῶν Σκλαβηνῶν χώραις; Theophylact Simocatta 218)8 . Theophylact introduces this phrase precisely at the point where he needs to explain that the Roman troops campaigning against the Slavs north of the river Danube had not yet returned when they received the order from Maurice to winter there. In the preceding paragraph of his History, Theophylact was at pains describing three concomitant movements of armies, all in relation to the river Danube. The Roman troops were north of that river, but in the “lands of the Sclavenes” and not in those directly controlled by the Avars. A second, Avar army moved at the same time against the Antes, who were located to the east from the “lands of the Sclavenes” and had long been allied with the Romans. It is quite clear that in order to reach the lands of the Antes, the Avars needed to move along the river Danube, either on the northern or on the southern bank. The northern bank, where the Sclavenes lived, would have been the shorter way, but the Roman troops were there at that time, campaigning against the Sclavenes. It is therefore possible, although Theophylact does not explicitly say so, that the Avars moved along the southern bank through what was, at least according to the terms of the peace of Drizipera, Roman territory

 

[Kole11]

Franjo Barišić, Čuda

„ Прича се да је тадањи вођа Авара преко посланика тражио нешто од блажепочившег Маврикија, који је тада држао царски скиптар римске државе. Пошто је промашио својим захтевом, плану неукротивим бесом и , како није могао ништа да учини ономе који се оглушио, измисли начин на који ће моћи , како се највише надао, задати му највећи бол, а то беше доста и најтачније. Увидевши, наиме, да богом чувана метропола Солуњана надвишује сваки град Тракије и читавог Илирика и разноврсним богатством и људима кршним и мудрим и најбољим хришћанима, и, просто речено, сазнавши да поменута метропола лежи цару на срцу пошто у сваком погледу сјаји преимућствима и да ће окруњеног римског владара, само ако јој се штогод неочекивано деси, заболети исто тако као да су му децу за клали, позове он (sc. хаган) себя сву неверу из Склавинија81 , дивљи сој јер њему се покоряваше цео тај народ — и , помешавши с њима и неке варваре дру гих племена, нареди да заједно пођу на богом чувани Солун

Склавиније које се овде помињу очигледно се налазе у крајевима на левој обали Дунава. Први помен Склавиније ( Xкларnуta ) из те области имамо код Теофилакта Симокате, ed . de Boor, 293. Тврђење нашег писца да су све задунавске Склавиније биле потчињене хагану не могу се дословно узети пошто је солунски известилац и сувише удаљен од Подунавља да би познавао право стање тамошњих прилика

 

[Kole11]

Franjo Barišić, Čuda


Приказ прве од тих опсада почиње овако : „ И тако се деси , као што је речено, да се за епископата блажене успомене Јована подиже народ Словена, неизмерно мноштво састављено од Дрогувита , Сагудата, Велегезита , Вајунита, Верзита и осталих племена. Најпре су се показали у томе што су, изградивши чамце истесане из једног стабла и наоружавши се за море, опљачкали читаву Тесалију и острва око ње и Хеладе , па још и Кикладска Острва и читаву Ахају, Епир и највећи део Илирика и део Азије, опустошили


Slovenski madjioničari su opljačkali sva kikladska ostrva i Ahaju u čamcima istesanim iz jednog stabla, kaže Barišić.

Osim što je tako nešto nemoguće i zamisliti, postoji i drugi problem, u tekstu kaže εξ ενός ξύλου γλυπτάς νήας, dakle željeni čamac od jednog stabla se zove NEAS, ali NEAS je brod, veliki brod, na kakvima su recimo Grci putovali do Troje.

A monoksili, navodni slovenski izum prilikom prve opsade Soluna, su korišćeni u Italiji oko milenijum pre nego što će ga Sloveni izmisliti.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Ti znaš da su ljudi plovili od Kijeva do Carigrada i natrag?

 

[Kole11]

Ti znaš da su ljudi plovili od Kijeva do Carigrada i natrag?

Jel u monoksilima made in Pripjat?

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Of the coming of the Russians in monoxyla
from Russia to Constantinople​

The monoxyla which come down from outer Russia to Constantinople are from Novgorod, where Sviatoslav, son of Igor, prince of Russia, had his seat, and others from the city of Smolensk and from Teliutza and Chernigov and from Vyshegrad. All these come down the river Dnieper, and are collected together at the city of Kiev, also called Sambatas. Their Slav tributaries, the so-called Krivichians and the Lenzanenes and the rest of the Slavonic regions, cut the monoxyla on their mountains in time of winter, and when they have prepared them, as spring approaches, and the ice melts, they bring them on to the neighbouring lakes. And since these lakes debouch into the river Dnieper, they enter thence on to this same river, and come down to Kiev, and draw the ships along to be finished and sell them to the Russians. The Russians buy these bottoms only, furnishing them with oars and rowlocks and other tackle from their old monoxyla, which they dismantle; and so they fit them out. And in the month of June they move off down the river Dnieper and come to Vitichev, which is a tributary city of the Russians, and there they gather during two or three days; and when all the monoxyla are collected together, then they set out, and come down the said Dnieper river. And first they come to the first barrage, called Essoupi, which means in Russian and Slavonic 'Do not sleep!'; the barrage itself is as narrow as the width of the Polo-ground; in the middle of it are rooted high rocks, which stand out like islands. Against these, then, comes the water and wells up and dashes down over the other side, with a mighty and terrific din. Therefore the Russians do not venture to pass between them, but put in to the bank hard by, disembarking the men on to dry land leaving the rest of the goods on board the monoxyla; they then strip and, feeling with their feet to avoid striking on a rock.... This they do, some at the prow, some amidships, while others again, in the stern, punt with poles; and with all this careful procedure they pass this first barrage, edging round under the river-bank. When they have passed this barrage, they re-embark the others from the dry land and sail away, and come down to the second barrage, called in Russian Oulvorsi, and in Slavonic Ostrovouniprach, which means 'the Island of the Barrage'. This one is like the first, awkward and not to be passed through. Once again they disembark the men and convey the monoxyla past, as on the first occasion. Similarly they pass the third barrage also, called Gelandri, which means in Slavonic 'Noise of the Barrage', and then the fourth barrage, the big one, called in Russian Aeifor, and in Slavonic Neasit, because the pelicans nest in the stones of the barrage. At this barrage all put into land prow foremost, and those who are deputed to keep the watch with them get out, and off they go, these men, and keep vigilant watch for the Pechenegs. The remainder, taking up the goods which they have on board the monoxyla, conduct the slaves in their chains past by land, six miles, until they are through the barrage. Then, partly dragging their monoxyla, partly portaging them on their shoulders, they convey them to the far side of the barrage; and then, putting them on the river and loading up their baggage, they embark themselves, and again sail off in them. When they come to the fifth barrage, called in Russian Varouforos, and in Slavonic Voulniprach, because it forms a large lake, they again convey their monoxyla through at the edges of the river, as at the first and second barrages, and arrive at the sixth barrage, called in Russian Leanti, and in Slavonic Veroutzi, that is 'the Boiling of the Water', and this too they pass similarly. And thence they sail away to the seventh barrage, called in Russian Stroukoun, and in Slavonic Naprezi, which means 'Little Barrage'. This they pass at the so-called ford of Vrar, where the Chersonites cross over from Russia and the Pechenegs to Cherson; which ford is as wide as the Hippodrome, and, measured upstream from the bottom as far as the rocks break surface, a bow-shot in length. It is at this point, therefore, that the Pechenegs come down and attack the Russians. After traversing this place, they reach the island called St. Gregory, on which island they perform their sacrifices because a gigantic oak-tree stands there; and they sacrifice live cocks. Arrows, too, they peg in round about, and others bread and meat, or something of whatever each may have, as is their custom. They also throw lots regarding the cocks, whether to slaughter them, or to eat them as well, or to leave them alive. From this island onwards the Russians do not fear the Pecheneg until they reach the river Selinas. So then they start off thence and sail for four days, until they reach the lake which forms the mouth of the river, on which is the island of St. Aitherios. Arrived at this island, they rest themselves there for two or three days. And they re-equip their monoxyla with such tackle as is needed, sails and masts and rudders, which they bring with them. Since this lake is the mouth of this river, as has been said, and carries on down to the sea, and the island of St. Aitherios lies on the sea, they come thence to the Dniester river, and having got safely there they rest again. But when the weather is propitious, they put to sea and come to the river called Aspros, and after resting there too in like manner, they again set out and come to the Selinas, to the so-called branch of the Danube river. And until they are past the river Selinas, the Pechenegs keep pace with them. And if it happens that the sea casts a monoxylon on shore, they all put in to land, in order to present a united opposition to the Pechenegs. But after the Selinas they fear nobody, but, entering the territory of Bulgaria, they come to the mouth of the Danube. From the Danube they proceed to the Konopas, and from the Konopas to Constantia, and from Constantia to the river of Varna, and from Varna they come to the river Ditzina, all of which are Bulgarian territory. From the Ditzina they reach the district of Mesembria, and there at last their voyage, fraught with such travail and terror, such difficulty and danger, is at an end. The severe manner of life of these same Russians in winter-time is as follows. When the month of November begins, their chiefs together with all the Russians at once leave Kiev and go off on the poliudia, which means 'rounds', that is, to the Slavonic regions of the Vervians and Drugovichians and Krivichians and Severians and the rest of the Slavs who are tributaries of the Russians. There they are maintained throughout the winter, but then once more, starting from the month of April, when the ice of the Duleper river melts, they come back to Kiev. They then pick up their monoxyla, as has been said above, and fit them out, and come down to Romania.

http://faculty.washington.edu/dwaugh/rus/texts/constp.html​

 

[Kole11]

Of the coming of the Russians in monoxyla
from Russia to Constantinople​

The monoxyla which come down from outer Russia to Constantinople are from Novgorod, where Sviatoslav, son of Igor, prince of Russia, had his seat, and others from the city of Smolensk and from Teliutza and Chernigov and from Vyshegrad. All these come down the river Dnieper, and are collected together at the city of Kiev, also called Sambatas. Their Slav tributaries, the so-called Krivichians and the Lenzanenes and the rest of the Slavonic regions, cut the monoxyla on their mountains in time of winter, and when they have prepared them, as spring approaches, and the ice melts, they bring them on to the neighbouring lakes. And since these lakes debouch into the river Dnieper, they enter thence on to this same river, and come down to Kiev, and draw the ships along to be finished and sell them to the Russians. The Russians buy these bottoms only, furnishing them with oars and rowlocks and other tackle from their old monoxyla, which they dismantle; and so they fit them out. And in the month of June they move off down the river Dnieper and come to Vitichev, which is a tributary city of the Russians, and there they gather during two or three days; and when all the monoxyla are collected together, then they set out, and come down the said Dnieper river. And first they come to the first barrage, called Essoupi, which means in Russian and Slavonic 'Do not sleep!'; the barrage itself is as narrow as the width of the Polo-ground; in the middle of it are rooted high rocks, which stand out like islands. Against these, then, comes the water and wells up and dashes down over the other side, with a mighty and terrific din. Therefore the Russians do not venture to pass between them, but put in to the bank hard by, disembarking the men on to dry land leaving the rest of the goods on board the monoxyla; they then strip and, feeling with their feet to avoid striking on a rock.... This they do, some at the prow, some amidships, while others again, in the stern, punt with poles; and with all this careful procedure they pass this first barrage, edging round under the river-bank. When they have passed this barrage, they re-embark the others from the dry land and sail away, and come down to the second barrage, called in Russian Oulvorsi, and in Slavonic Ostrovouniprach, which means 'the Island of the Barrage'. This one is like the first, awkward and not to be passed through. Once again they disembark the men and convey the monoxyla past, as on the first occasion. Similarly they pass the third barrage also, called Gelandri, which means in Slavonic 'Noise of the Barrage', and then the fourth barrage, the big one, called in Russian Aeifor, and in Slavonic Neasit, because the pelicans nest in the stones of the barrage. At this barrage all put into land prow foremost, and those who are deputed to keep the watch with them get out, and off they go, these men, and keep vigilant watch for the Pechenegs. The remainder, taking up the goods which they have on board the monoxyla, conduct the slaves in their chains past by land, six miles, until they are through the barrage. Then, partly dragging their monoxyla, partly portaging them on their shoulders, they convey them to the far side of the barrage; and then, putting them on the river and loading up their baggage, they embark themselves, and again sail off in them. When they come to the fifth barrage, called in Russian Varouforos, and in Slavonic Voulniprach, because it forms a large lake, they again convey their monoxyla through at the edges of the river, as at the first and second barrages, and arrive at the sixth barrage, called in Russian Leanti, and in Slavonic Veroutzi, that is 'the Boiling of the Water', and this too they pass similarly. And thence they sail away to the seventh barrage, called in Russian Stroukoun, and in Slavonic Naprezi, which means 'Little Barrage'. This they pass at the so-called ford of Vrar, where the Chersonites cross over from Russia and the Pechenegs to Cherson; which ford is as wide as the Hippodrome, and, measured upstream from the bottom as far as the rocks break surface, a bow-shot in length. It is at this point, therefore, that the Pechenegs come down and attack the Russians. After traversing this place, they reach the island called St. Gregory, on which island they perform their sacrifices because a gigantic oak-tree stands there; and they sacrifice live cocks. Arrows, too, they peg in round about, and others bread and meat, or something of whatever each may have, as is their custom. They also throw lots regarding the cocks, whether to slaughter them, or to eat them as well, or to leave them alive. From this island onwards the Russians do not fear the Pecheneg until they reach the river Selinas. So then they start off thence and sail for four days, until they reach the lake which forms the mouth of the river, on which is the island of St. Aitherios. Arrived at this island, they rest themselves there for two or three days. And they re-equip their monoxyla with such tackle as is needed, sails and masts and rudders, which they bring with them. Since this lake is the mouth of this river, as has been said, and carries on down to the sea, and the island of St. Aitherios lies on the sea, they come thence to the Dniester river, and having got safely there they rest again. But when the weather is propitious, they put to sea and come to the river called Aspros, and after resting there too in like manner, they again set out and come to the Selinas, to the so-called branch of the Danube river. And until they are past the river Selinas, the Pechenegs keep pace with them. And if it happens that the sea casts a monoxylon on shore, they all put in to land, in order to present a united opposition to the Pechenegs. But after the Selinas they fear nobody, but, entering the territory of Bulgaria, they come to the mouth of the Danube. From the Danube they proceed to the Konopas, and from the Konopas to Constantia, and from Constantia to the river of Varna, and from Varna they come to the river Ditzina, all of which are Bulgarian territory. From the Ditzina they reach the district of Mesembria, and there at last their voyage, fraught with such travail and terror, such difficulty and danger, is at an end. The severe manner of life of these same Russians in winter-time is as follows. When the month of November begins, their chiefs together with all the Russians at once leave Kiev and go off on the poliudia, which means 'rounds', that is, to the Slavonic regions of the Vervians and Drugovichians and Krivichians and Severians and the rest of the Slavs who are tributaries of the Russians. There they are maintained throughout the winter, but then once more, starting from the month of April, when the ice of the Duleper river melts, they come back to Kiev. They then pick up their monoxyla, as has been said above, and fit them out, and come down to Romania.

http://faculty.washington.edu/dwaugh/rus/texts/constp.html​

Videli more, ali vekovima posle toga nisu mogli da se odreknu monoksila. Navika je cudo, monoksil je zakon.

Jel si cuo ti za onu pesmu "Glupost je neunistiva"?
Vi ste je oplemenili, glupost i bezobrazluk su neunistivi

 

[Kole11]

Koja je to vrsta drveta, sto kad se stablo izdubi moze da primi krave i volove?
Hrastovina, bukovina? Raste u zemlji cuda, u Pripjatu?

 

[Crnugović]

 

[Kole11]

Evo ti tvojih monoksila iz DAI, koji navodno idu u Konstantinopolj preko Crnog Mora

Vasiliev, THE RUSSIAN ATTACK ON CONSTANTINOPLE IN 860

The famous account of the route of the Russian traders down the Dnieper to Byzantium, which was compiled in the tenth century by the Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus, also mentions the Russian dug-outs, monoxyla, which rowed down from the northern cities of Novgorod, Smolensk, Lyubech, Chernigov, and Vyshegrad as far as Kiev. Here the monoxyla were to be replaced by new boats, evidently by larger vessels, which started farther south, in order to reach, after many perils and mischances, the imperial capital


Mogli bi vi sa filozofskog da demonstrirate kako su to Sloveni odradili, da razoruzate nas sto drugacije razmisljamo. Pokupite se lepo, sednete u kanue i pređete preko mora. Evo birajte rutu, možete preko Jadrana u Italiju, ili sa Peloponeza na Krit....Naravno, možete korisititi https://www.weather2umbrella.com/, to je prednost, naši pripjatski preci nisu imali tu mogućnost.....

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

P

Videli more, ali vekovima posle toga nisu mogli da se odreknu monoksila. Navika je cudo, monoksil je zakon.

Jel si cuo ti za onu pesmu "Glupost je neunistiva"?
Vi ste je oplemenili, glupost i bezobrazluk su neunistivi

Vezano za upotrebu pojma monoksil u vizantinskoj istoriografiji, oko koje postoje u društvenim naukama i različita tumačenja, nužno je konsultovati šta su sve pisali ljudi koji su se profesionalno bavili istraživanjem tog pitanja, kao što su Dimitrije Obolenski i Ljudmila Havlikova.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Evo ti tvojih monoksila iz DAI, koji navodno idu u Konstantinopolj preko Crnog Mora

Vasiliev, THE RUSSIAN ATTACK ON CONSTANTINOPLE IN 860

The famous account of the route of the Russian traders down the Dnieper to Byzantium, which was compiled in the tenth century by the Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus, also mentions the Russian dug-outs, monoxyla, which rowed down from the northern cities of Novgorod, Smolensk, Lyubech, Chernigov, and Vyshegrad as far as Kiev. Here the monoxyla were to be replaced by new boats, evidently by larger vessels, which started farther south, in order to reach, after many perils and mischances, the imperial capital


Mogli bi vi sa filozofskog da demonstrirate kako su to Sloveni odradili, da razoruzate nas sto drugacije razmisljamo. Pokupite se lepo, sednete u kanue i pređete preko mora. Evo birajte rutu, možete preko Jadrana u Italiju, ili sa Peloponeza na Krit....Naravno, možete korisititi https://www.weather2umbrella.com/, to je prednost, naši pripjatski preci nisu imali tu mogućnost.....

Da, to je tumačenje kojem se Vasilijev priklanja, a koje sam već pominjao. U Porfirogenitovom tekstu i jedni i drugi se nazivaju na potpuno isti način, „monoksilima”. O različitim tumačenjima i Danijel Vo u linku citata iz Moravčikovog prevoda, koji sam već bio postavio:

the "monoxyla" might be translated as "single-straked boats," but probably are to be understood as very large dugouts.

http://faculty.washington.edu/dwaugh/rus/texts/constp.html

P. S. Inače, kad već okrećeš u tom smeru, Mithad Kozličić, Hrvatsko brodovlje, str. 46:

Želimo istaknuti kako Slaveni, pa i oni koji će vlastiti novi dom pronaći na istočnojadranskom primorju, kamo su pristigli s već utemeljenim doduše riječnim no ipak plovidbenim pa tako i brodograđevnim (barem u oblasti lađarstva) tradicijama, time unaprijed ispuniše neophodni uvjet brze aklimatizacije i prihvaćanja dostignuća morskoga brodarstva. Bio je to preduvjet da se cjelokupna antička autohtona istočnojadranska brodograđevna tradicija jednostavno prihvati. Brojni su primjeri koji to potvrđuju. Valja naglasiti i to da su Južni Slaveni, a među njima u prvom redu Hrvati, vjerojatno zbog navika iz Zakarpatja, imali izrazitu sklonost prema plovidbi, te će se usljed toga i moći tako brzo legitimirati kao respektivna pomorska snaga Jadrana.

 

[Kole11]

Da, to je tumačenje kojem se Vasilijev priklanja, a koje sam već pominjao. U Porfirogenitovom tekstu i jedni i drugi se nazivaju na potpuno isti način, „monoksilima”. O različitim tumačenjima i Danijel Vo u linku citata iz Moravčikovog prevoda, koji sam već bio postavio:

the "monoxyla" might be translated as "single-straked boats," but probably are to be understood as very large dugouts.

http://faculty.washington.edu/dwaugh/rus/texts/constp.html

P. S. Inače, kad već okrećeš u tom smeru, Mithad Kozličić, Hrvatsko brodovlje, str. 46:

Pogledajte prilog 933086
Pogledajte prilog 933087

Želimo istaknuti kako Slaveni, pa i oni koji će vlastiti novi dom pronaći na istočnojadranskom primorju, kamo su pristigli s već utemeljenim doduše riječnim no ipak plovidbenim pa tako i brodograđevnim (barem u oblasti lađarstva) tradicijama, time unaprijed ispuniše neophodni uvjet brze aklimatizacije i prihvaćanja dostignuća morskoga brodarstva. Bio je to preduvjet da se cjelokupna antička autohtona istočnojadranska brodograđevna tradicija jednostavno prihvati. Brojni su primjeri koji to potvrđuju. Valja naglasiti i to da su Južni Slaveni, a među njima u prvom redu Hrvati, vjerojatno zbog navika iz Zakarpatja, imali izrazitu sklonost prema plovidbi, te će se usljed toga i moći tako brzo legitimirati kao respektivna pomorska snaga Jadrana.

Taj Konstantinov citat je konfuzan i nejasan. On piše kako su deo puta monoksili transpotovani kopnom. Niko nije razumei šta je on tu hteo reći ali svi se slažu da je taj put morao trajati mesecima ako ne i godinama ukoliko je izvođen malim čamcima.

Ovde je bitno nešto drugo, BB škola je u nedostatku pisanih dokaza o migracija Slovena pribegla dokazivanju primitivnosti Slovena kao ključnom dokazu migracije. Pa je tako upotrebu malih i brzih čamaca prilikom opsade Soluna i Konstantinopolja uzimala kao ključni dokaz tog primitivizma.
Nemajući kud, pošto su Sloveni zaposeli grčka ostrva i Krit, čak se iskrcali na italijansku obalu, BB ideolozi su morali da tumače da su svi ovi manevri izvedeni u malim čamcima koji su napravljeni od jednog debla drveta.

Ajde što smo u to verovali mii koji smo sedeli u klupama, ali kako je moguće da u to veruje predavač? Zato kažem da je BB škola zanimljiva sociološka pojava.....

 

[Mrkalj]

Taj Konstantinov citat je konfuzan i nejasan. On piše kako su deo puta monoksili transpotovani kopnom. Niko nije razumei šta je on tu hteo reći ali svi se slažu da je taj put morao trajati mesecima ako ne i godinama ukoliko je izvođen malim čamcima.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Koja je to vrsta drveta, sto kad se stablo izdubi moze da primi krave i volove?
Hrastovina, bukovina? Raste u zemlji cuda, u Pripjatu?

Gde si pročitao te krave i volove?