Istorijski izvori bez komentara - sa fokusom na Slovene, Srbe i srodne narode

Slaven777:

Logičnije bi bilo da si krenuo nekim redom...tipa hronološki ili alfabetski. Ovako ne vidim po čemu Al-Masudi ide na prvo mjesto...

Kliknite za proširenje...

V (30) Now Scythia borders on the land of Germany as far as the source of the river Ister and the expanse of the Morsian Swamp. It reaches even to the rivers Tyra, Danaster and Vagosola, and the great Danaper, extending to the Taurus range--not the mountains in Asia but our own, that is, the Scythian Taurus--all the way to Lake Maeotis. Beyond Lake Maeotis it spreads on the other side of the straits of Bosphorus to the Caucasus Mountains and the river Araxes. Then it bends back to the left behind the Caspian Sea, which comes from the north-eastern ocean in the most distant parts of Asia, and so is formed like a mushroom, at first narrow and then broad and round in shape. It extends as far as the Huns, Albani and Seres. (31) This land, I say,--namely, Scythia, stretching far and spreading wide,--has on the east the Seres, a race that dwelt at the very beginning of their history on the shore of the Caspian Sea. On the west are the Germans and the river Vistula; on the arctic side, namely the north, it is surrounded by Ocean; on the south by Persis, Albania, Hiberia, Pontus and the farthest channel of the Ister, which is called the Danube all the way from mouth to source. (32) But in that region where Scythia touches the Pontic coast it is dotted with towns of no mean fame:--Borysthenis, Olbia, Callipolis, Cherson, Theodosia, Careon, Myrmicion and Trapezus. These towns the wild Scythian tribes allowed the Greeks to build to afford them means of trade. In the midst of Scythia is the place that separates Asia and Europe, I mean the Rhipaeian mountains, from which the mighty Tanais flows. This river enters Maeotis, a marsh having a circuit of one hundred and forty-four miles and never subsiding to a depth of less than eight fathoms.

Kliknite za proširenje...

(33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression. From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.

(38) We read that on their first migration the Goths dwelt in the land of Scythia near Lake Maeotis. On the second migration they went to Moesia, Thrace and Dacia, and after their third they dwelt again in Scythia, above the Sea of Pontus. Nor do we find anywhere in their written records legends which tell of their subjection to slavery in Britain or in some other island, or of their redemption by a certain man at the cost of a single horse. Of course if anyone in our city says that the Goths had an origin different from that I have related, let him object. For myself, I prefer to believe what I have read, rather than put trust in old wives' tales.

Kliknite za proširenje...

(33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Karpati

The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities.

Kliknite za proširenje...

nekoliko mesta nosi naziv Noviodunum... od toga 4 u Francuskoj, 1 u Rumuniji i 1 u Švajcarskoj

Jublains, Mayenne, France, capital of the Aulerci Diablintes
Neung-sur-Beuvron, Loir-et-Cher, as Noviodunum Biturigum; the capital of the Bituriges, where Vercingetorix fought Julius Caesar in 52 BC.
Nevers, Nièvre, France
Pommiers, Aisne, France (oppidum of the Suessiones, situated on the nearby heights of Soissons)
Nyon, Vaud, Switzerland (formed the city centre of Julius Caesar's 45 BC foundation of Colonia Iulia Equestris)
Isaccea, Romania

Kliknite za proširenje...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noviodunum

jezero Mursianus je takođe nepoznato


Isaccea je u Dobrudži skoro na ušću Dunava
ako bi Mursianus jezero bilo tu pored onda bi do Dnjepra i Vistule bio relativno mali komad zemlje....


grad Mursa je današnji Osijek

Slaven777:

Mid-zea me je pokrenuo i podsjetio da je možda važno i da sistematski na jednom mjestu postavimo i prodiskutujemo o svim pojedinačnim izvorima koji su dostupni, sintetišući cjelokupno saznanje naše dosadašnje diskusije; naravno, ponavljanje je i suština učenja nečeg.

Počnimo od najstarijeg izvora koji pominje Slovene; Jordanesa. Jordanesova De summa temporum vel de origine actibusque Getarum (iliti Getica), dovršena je do 551. godine. S obzirom da se smatra da su pozniji dijelovi svakako nastali na osnovu istoimenoga djela Kasiodora Senatora, onda se otprilike može reći da je izvor za ove podatke ta danas nažalost nesačuvana, Historia Getica (nastala između 526. i 533. godine).

Jordanesov geografski opis Skitije:

V:

Између ових ријека лежи Дакија, окружена узвишеним Алпима као круном. Код лијеве бразде, која се закривљује на сјевер, код почетака гдје извире Висла, бројни народ Венета обитава, заузимајући велико пространство земље. Мада им се имена сад мијењају према различитим племенима и мјестима, они се углавном називају Словени и Анти.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Za vlasti Ermanarika; druga polovina IV stoljeća:

V:

Словенске земље се простиру од града Новиодунума и језера званог Мурсианус до Дњестра, и на сjевер докле иде Висла. Они користе мочваре и шуме као градове. Анти, који су најхрабрији од ових народа који обитавају на обронцима Понтског мора, живе између Дњестра и Дњепра, ријека много дана пута удаљених једне од друге.

Kliknite za proširenje...

XXIII:

И послије покоља Херула, Ерманарик такође предузе поход противу Венета. Овај народ, иако презире рат, био је врло бројан и покушао му се супротставити. Али гомила кукавица није од помоћи, поготову када Бог одобри да их наоружано мноштво нападне. Овај народ, као што смо рекли на почетку нашег излагања односно списка народа, иако се изродио из једне цјелине сада има три имена, то јест: Венети, Анти и Словени. Они сада гњевно ратују посвуда, као казна за наше гријехове, без обзира на то што су у то вријеме сви били послушни Ерманариковим заповиједима.

Kliknite za proširenje...

..ovdje iako samo riječi o Antima; da i to postavim (poslije Hermanarikove smrti, 376. godine):

XLVIII:

Био је по храбрости раван своме дједу, Вултуулфу, иако није био Ерманарикове среће. Али не желећи да остане под влашћу Хуна, удаљио се мало од њих и покушао да покаже своју храброст шаљући своје снаге у земљу Анта. Када их је напао, био је поражен при првоме сусрету. Потом се охрабрио и, као ужасни примјер, распео њихова краља званог Боза, заједно са његовим синовима и још седамдесет племића, и оставио њихова тијела да висе тако како би страх оних који су се предали био удвостручен.

Kliknite za proširenje...

338:

Ово су несреће Римског царства, поред свакодневних провала Бугара, Анта и Словена. Ако ико жели да о њима сазна више, нека прође кроз анале и конзулске фасте без омаловажавања, и пронаћи ће модерно царство са трагичном причом. И знати ће када се уздигло, како се развијало односно на који начин је подвргло себи све земље и како их је онда захваљујући неуким владарима изгубило. Намјера нам је била да, колико год нам је то било у могућности, омогућимо озбиљном читаоцу да прошири своје знање о овим стварима.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Njegovo drugo djelo, koje je dovršio poslije ove (bilo 550 il' 551. godine), De summa temporum vel origine actibusque gentis Romanorum iliti kraće Romana sadrži samo kratku zabilješku (na samome kraju) koja nam tako nije relevantna; al' ću svejedno postaviti:

Kliknite za proširenje...

Slaven777:

Jordanesa već bijah i sam postavio, na temi posvećenoj pseudonaučnim interpretacijama:

Kliknite za proširenje...

This land, I say,--namely, Scythia, stretching far and spreading wide,--has on the east the Seres, a race that dwelt at the very beginning of their history on the shore of the Caspian Sea.

Kliknite za proširenje...

The land of Elis is fruitful, being especially suited to the growth of fine flax. Now while hemp and flax, both the ordinary and the fine variety, are sown by those whose soil is suited to grow it, the threads from which the Seres make the dresses are produced from no bark, but in a different way as follows. There is in the land of the Seres an insect which the Greeks call ser, though the Seres themselves give it another name.

[7] Its size is twice that of the largest beetle, but in other respects it is like the spiders that spin under trees, and furthermore it has, like the spider, eight feet. These creatures are reared by the Seres, who build them houses adapted for winter and for summer. The product of the creatures, a clue of fine thread, is found rolled round their feet.

[8] They keep them for four years, feeding them on millet, but in the fifth year, knowing that they have no longer to live, they give them green reed to eat. This of all foods the creature likes best; so it stuffs itself with the reed till it bursts with surfeit, and after it has thus died they find inside it the greater part of the thread. Seria is known to be an island lying in a recess of the Red Sea.

[9] But I have heard that it is not the Red Sea, but a river called Ser, that makes this island, just as in Egypt the Delta is surrounded by the Nile and by no sea. Such another island is Seria said to be. These Seres themselves are of Aethiopian race, as are the inhabitants of the neighboring islands, Abasa and Sacaea. Some say, however, that they are not Ethiopians but a mongrel race of Scythians and Indians.

Kliknite za proširenje...

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

Kliknite za proširenje...

[p. 385] [64] Beyond these lands of both Scythias, 84 towards the east, the summits of lofty walls 85 form a circle and enclose the Seres, 86 remarkable for the richness and extent of their country. On the west they are bounded by the Scythians, and on the north and the east they extend to a snowclad waste; on the south they reach India and the Ganges.
...
There are mountains there, called Anniba, Nazavicium, Asmira, Emodon, and Opurocorra. [65] Through this land, consisting of a plain of wide extent, 87 surrounded on all sides by precipitous cliffs, two rivers of famous name, the Oechartis and the Bautis, 88 flow in a somewhat slow course. The nature of the various tracts is unlike, being now open and flat and now descending in gentle slopes; and therefore the land overflows in grain, flocks, and orchards. [66] On this very fruitful soil dwell various peoples, of which the Anthropophagi, Anibi, Sizyges and Chardi lie towards the north and the snows. Towards the rising sun are the Rabannae, Asmirae, and the Essedones, the most famed of all; close to them, on the west, are the Athagorae, and the Aspacarae. In the south are the Baetae, dwelling on the slopes of high mountains. They are famed for cities which, though not numerous, are large and prosperous; the greatest of these, Asmira, Essedon, Asparata, [p. 387] and Sera, are beautiful and well known. [67] The Seres themselves live a peaceful life, for ever unacquainted with arms and warfare; and since to gentle and quiet folk ease is pleasurable, they are troublesome to none of their neighbours. Their climate is agreeable and healthful, the sky is clear, the winds gentle and very pleasant. There is an abundance of well-lighted woods, the trees of which produce a substance which they work with frequent sprinkling, like a kind of fleece; then from the wool-like material, mixed with water, they draw out very fine threads, spin the yarn, and make sericum, 89 formerly for the use of the nobility, but nowadays available even to the lowest without any distinction. [68] The Seres themselves are frugal beyond all others, live a quiet life, and avoid intercourse with the rest of mortals. And when strangers, in order to buy threads or anything else, cross the river, their wares are laid out and with no exchange of words their value is estimated by the eye alone; 90 and they are so abstemious, that they hand over their own products without themselves getting any foreign ware in return.

[69] Beyond the Seres live the Ariani, exposed to the blasts of the north wind; through their lands flows a river called the Arias, large enough to carry ships, which forms a great lake called by the same name. Moreover, this same Aria has many cities, among which the following are renowned: Vitaxa Sarmatina, Sotira, Nisibis, and Alexandria, from which the voyage to the Caspian Sea is reckoned as fifteen hundred stadia.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Names similar to Bhutan – including Bottanthis, Bottan and Bottanter – began to appear in Europe around the 1580s. Jean-Baptiste Tavernier's 1676 Six Voyages is the first to record the name Boutan. However, in every case, these seem to have been describing not modern Bhutan but the Kingdom of Tibet.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Beyond the Seres live the Ariani, exposed to the blasts of the north wind; through their lands flows a river called the Arias,

Kliknite za proširenje...

They also informed us that the side of their island which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction—that beyond the Emodian Mountains they look towards17 the Serve, whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; that the father of Rachias had frequently visited their country, and that the Seræ always came to meet them on their arrival. These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, having no language of their own for the pur- pose of communicating their thoughts.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Dedications to Sulevia(e) are attested in about forty inscriptions, distributed quite widely in the Celtic world, but with particular concentrations in Noricum, among the Helvetii, along the Rhine, and also in Rome.

Kliknite za proširenje...

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs

Kliknite za proširenje...

Next to them comes acorn-bearing Pannonia1, along which the chain of the Alps, gradually lessening as it runs through the middle of Illyricum from north to south, forms a gentle slope on the right hand and the left. The portion which looks towards the Adriatic Sea is called Dalmatia and Illyricum, above mentioned, while Pannonia stretches away towards the north, and has the Danube for its extreme boundary. In it are the colonies of Æmona2 and Siscia. The following rivers, both known to fame and adapted for commerce, flow into the Danube; the Draus3, which rushes from Noricum with great impetuosity, and the Savus4, which flows with a more gentle current from the Carnic Alps, there being a space between them of 120 miles. The Draus runs through the Serretes, the Serrapilli5, the Iasi, and the Andizetes; the Savus through the Colapiani6 and the Breuci; these are the principal peoples. Besides them there are the Arivates, the Azali, the Amantini, the Belgites, the Catari, the Cornacates, the Eravisci, the Hercuniates7, the Latovici, the Oseriates, the Varciani, and, in front of Mount Claudius, the Scordisci, behind it the Taurisci. In the Savus there is the island of Metubarris8, the greatest of all the islands formed by rivers. Besides the above, there are these other rivers worthy of mention:—the Colapis9, which flows into the Savus near Siscia, where, dividing its channel, it forms the island which is called Segestica10 a; and the river Bacuntius11, which flows into the Savus at the town of Sirmium, where we find the state of the Sirmienses and the Amantini. Forty-five miles thence is Taurunum12, where the Savus flows into the Danube; above which spot the Valdanus13 and the Urpanus, themselves far from ignoble rivers, join that stream.

Kliknite za proširenje...

truthSeeker:

Sloveni su Norici

[ruska primarna hronika]
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

Sulevia - boginja koja je slavljena pre svega u Norikumu

Kliknite za proširenje...

Many nations dwell among the Alps; but the more remarkable, between Pola and the district of Tergeste, are the Secusses, the Subocrini, the Catali, the Menocaleni, and near the Carni the people formerly called the Taurisci, but now the Norici.

Kliknite za proširenje...

truthSeeker:

Al Masudi je sasvim slučajno prvi...
naleteo sam na knjigu na internetu i bilo je pitanje da li da otvorim temu o pominjanju Slovena u njegovim delima ili opštiju temu....

evo malo Jordanes-a
prvo da razumemo granice Skitije ..



THE ORIGIN AND DEEDS OF THE GOTHS - JORDANES
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

na severu do mora
na istoku do Seres koji žive oko Kaspijskog mora
na jugu granica je Dunav, Kavkaska Iberija i kavkaska Albanija i Persija
na zapadu sve do izvora Dunava, ali istovremeno i samo do Vistule i Germanije => dakle uključene su i Bavarija i Češka ali ne i zapadna i centralna Poljska

ovo je sasvim različito od konvencionalnih predstava o položaju Skitije...koje je pomeraju daleko na istok...pa umesto na izvoru Dunava ona počinje na ušću Dunava a umesto kod Kaspijskog mora završava se kod Sogdiane...Skitija je tako ostala bez centralne Evrope a centralnom zemljom Skitije je učinjena njoj susedna teritorija za koju Jordanes kaže da je teritorija Seres ljudi...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia


a zatim i mesto pra-Slovena unutar Skitije


THE ORIGIN AND DEEDS OF THE GOTHS - JORDANES
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Skitija se prostire od izvora Dunava ali Jordanes nam ne daje ime za stanovnike Bavarije, Češke, Slovačke, Panonije osim Gepida koje pominje pre svih i naglašava njihovu zapadnu poziciju...
između Tise na severu i severozapadu i Dunava na jugu i jugozapadu i na istoku nepoznate pritoke Dunava po imenu Flutausis je Dakija koju drže Gepidi


...


Veneti su kaže Jordanes brojna rasa koja zauzima velika prostranstva zemlje počev od izvora Vistule i levih (zapadnih?) ogranaka Alpa (Karpata?) koji zavrću na sever..

izvor Vistule je na tromeđi Češke, Slovačke i Poljske
Karpati na krajnem zapadu su oblast severne Češke...

Kliknite za proširenje...

Thus the countries beyond the Rhine and Keltica are situated to the north of the Danube, and are occupied by the Galatic and German tribes, as far as the territory of the Bastarnæ,4 the Tyregetæ,5 and the river Dnieper; so also is the country situated between the Dnieper, the Don, and the mouth of the Sea of Azof, which on one side stretches back as far as the [Northern] Ocean,6 and on another is washed by the Euxine. To the south of the Danube are situated the people of Illyria and Thrace, and mixed with them certain tribes of Kelts and other races, extending as far as Greece.

We will first speak of those nations to the north of the Danube, for their history is less involved than that of the tribes situated on the other side of the river. [2]

Next after the Keltic nations come the Germans who inhabit the country to the east beyond the Rhine; and these differ but little from the Keltic race, except in their being more fierce, of a larger stature, and more ruddy in countenance; but in every other respect, their figure, their customs and manners of life, are such as we have related of the Kelts.7 The Romans therefore, I think, have very appositely applied to them the name ‘Germani,’ as signifying genuine; for in the Latin language Germani signifies genuine.8

Kliknite za proširenje...