Становиште Православне Цркве о човековом стању после смрти?

[bmaxa]

tako me je Hristos naucio, da se koristim ovozemaljksim stvarima da bih vam objasnio nebeske,
a to ako znas i imas bolje objasnjenje o cemu diskutuju de sisti i sale, izvoli ponudi ga

Sloboda, a ne stege, tako je mene naucio.

 

[bas kao]

Sloboda, a ne stege, tako je mene naucio.

pa, ti nemoj da si stegnt, relax

sloboda, od koga, od cega?
aaa, ti mislis

Moksha - Wikipedia​

ali ovde je tema stanoviste pravoslavnih, a ne hindu o afterlife

The concept of moksha, according to Daniel Ingalls,[14] represented one of many expansions in Hindu Vedic ideas of life and afterlife.

vidi ovo za drugu temu, ili mozemo da trazimo paralele sa ovom? moderisi malo ovaj religijski saobracaj

 

[bmaxa]

sloboda, od koga, od cega?

od materijalnih stega, od straha da ce ti nesto biti ako primis vakcinu ili pojedes prasetinu
od straha da ce te neko cipovati i time ti uzeti slobodnu volju i slicno
ili od straha da primis i das transfuziju i tako to

 

[bas kao]

od materijalnih stega, od straha da ce ti nesto biti ako primis vakcinu ili pojedes prasetinu
od straha da ce te neko cipovati i time ti uzeti slobodnu volju i slicno
ili od straha da primis i das transfuziju i tako to

to je tvoja postavka, a moja je:
vi se bojite korone, uteran vam je strah, pa ojnda primate vakcine po 16 puta, ali badava, strah ostaje
vi se bojite da vas ne etiketiraju kao zaostale, pa bi onda jeli najegzticnije, i radili sve da se dodvorite tzv mejnstrim medijima, kao nekom naucnom konsenzusu, sto je oksimoron, jer nauka valjda treba sve da preispituje

ali su vam problem neka nepokorna manjina, i onda sledi tortura, zabrane, zakljucavanja, ucene itd... samo sto je sada ta antivax manjina mozda i 50%

ko je zapravo u strahu, sa kim se manipulise, sa nama religioznima, ili s vama korona sektom/kultom?

p.s. a za cipove smo vas lozili, ili mislite da samo vi imate pravo da lozite/? ima da vas cipujemo sa 666 sve!

 

[bas kao]

ima da vas cipujemo sa 666 sve!

jer se vi ne bojite kao fol!

ali samo razmisli: pre korone je bilo mozda 20% antivaksera, a sada nas ima kudikamo vise?
i sto nas vise plasite koronom, mi je se manje bojimo

da li se mi bojimo vakcina onda, ili se vi bojite da cete d'umrete ako ne primite vakcine 16-ostruku dozu?

koga cemo da etiketiramo kao zentaru? da stavimo zig 666 u te cipove/vakcine, pa da vidimo? patent pending, by MS, bill gates

 

[bmaxa]

li s vama korona sektom/kultom?

jer ti sebe slusas sta mislis? Koji kult sekta? Ja sam se druzio sa svima ali sam uvek PRAVOSLAVAC.

 

[bmaxa]

ali samo razmisli: pre korone je bilo mozda 20% antivaksera, a sada nas ima kudikamo vise?

To je u principu dobra stvar, jer ja zbog toga sto verujem d aje sve u glavi nemam potrebu da se vakcinisem
Samo treba reci ljudima da je korona *placebo* kao i *vakcina*.
No opet teske su to stvari za poverovati, mozes nekome da naskodis tako

 

[bas kao]

jer ti sebe slusas sta mislis? Koji kult sekta? Ja sam se druzio sa svima ali sam uvek PRAVOSLAVAC.

ma, forumske tracare pominju nekog kroulija

Samo treba reci ljudima da je korona *placebo* kao i *vakcina*.

opet se vracamo na zamorce, pokusne kunice - necemo bre da ucestvujemo u ovom eksperimentu

mozes nekome da naskodis tako

pa, zato i trazimo da se ne lazemo
sve postoji, samo mi necemo da ucetvujemo

 

[bmaxa]

ma, forumske tracare pominju nekog kroulija

E pazi ja jesam Crowlyjevac imam literaturu samo dostupnu OTO, ali nisam satanista niti sam nesto drugo sem PRAVOSLAVCA

 

[Jasna]

To je u principu dobra stvar, jer ja zbog toga sto verujem d aje sve u glavi nemam potrebu da se vakcinisem
Samo treba reci ljudima da je korona *placebo* kao i *vakcina*.
No opet teske su to stvari za poverovati, mozes nekome da naskodis tako

Kako korona može biti placebo? Znaš lli ti uopšte šta ta reč znači?

 

[bas kao]

Kako korona može biti placebo? Znaš lli ti uopšte šta ta reč znači?

Glisto, banuj ga vec jdnom, udavi nas sa glupostima: ej ORDO TEMPLI ORIJENTALIS PRAVOSLAVAC?

OTO, ali nisam satanista niti sam nesto drugo sem PRAVOSLAVCA

E pazi ja jesam Crowlyjevac

On je sebe proglasio zveri 666, i ti si njegov? ajde da te cipujemo onda, jel moze?

 

[Dе Sisti]

složićemo se da se ne slažemo. jedino do tog zaključka dođoh iz naše prepiske.
interesuje me tvoje mišljenje zašto ih je zaista bog kaznio?
pošto iz moje perspective oni pre ploda nisu znali da li čine dobro ili loše, kad jedoše počinje ispitivanje

jel što su prekršili zabranu (drvo koje im je stalno na oku) ili što su prebacivali odgovornost i tako se javlja sebičluk?

Prvo, hajde da vidimo šta ti tu smatraš kaznom.
Drugo, rekao bih da su posledice usledile, ne samo nakon što nisu poslušali savet Božiji (a ono "ne jedite od ploda tog drveta" jeste savet), nego upravo od trenutka kad nisu priznali grešku, već počeli da je prebacuju jedni na druge.

 

[Dе Sisti]

A, јесмо ли се нешто више бавили Матејем, глава 27

Исус још једном снажно узвикну и издахну. Уто се храмска завеса расцепи на двоје од горе до доле, а земља се потресе, те се стене распукоше. Гробови се отворише, па устадоше из мртвих многи свети који су уснули, и изађоше из својих гробова. Ови су касније, након Исусовог васкрсења, дошли у Свети град и показали се многима. А римски капетан и они који су са њим чували Исуса, кад су видели потрес и све што се догодило, силно су се уплашили и рекли: „Овај је заиста био Божији Син!“

 

[bas kao]

A, јесмо ли се нешто више бавили Матејем, глава 27

Исус још једном снажно узвикну и издахну. Уто се храмска завеса расцепи на двоје од горе до доле, а земља се потресе, те се стене распукоше. Гробови се отворише, па устадоше из мртвих многи свети који су уснули, и изађоше из својих гробова. Ови су касније, након Исусовог васкрсења, дошли у Свети град и показали се многима. А римски капетан и они који су са њим чували Исуса, кад су видели потрес и све што се догодило, силно су се уплашили и рекли: „Овај је заиста био Божији Син!“

bavili smo se, ja se secam kada si postavljao, ali ti jos uvek trosis vreme neopredeljen:
1. da li je to onda prvo vaskrsenje po knjizi otkrivenja?
2 ako jeste,zasto onda neki kazu da pravoslavni teolozi zovu krstenje prvim vakrsenjem iz knjige otkrivenja?
3. kako to uklopiti u neprimanje ziga i 1000 godisnje carstvo?
...

 

[Dе Sisti]

bavili smo se, ja se secam kada si postavljao, ali ti jos uvek trosis vreme neopredeljen:
1. da li je to onda prvo vaskrsenje po knjizi otkrivenja?
2 ako jeste,zasto onda neki kazu da pravoslavni teolozi zovu krstenje prvim vakrsenjem iz knjige otkrivenja?
3. kako to uklopiti u neprimanje ziga i 1000 godisnje carstvo?
...

Nemam komplet odgovore, nemam komplet učenje... Traganje u toku...
A i ti bi mogao da najpre ponudiš odgovore na svoja pitanja, prosto da bi pričali

Tragam za nekim tumačenjima ovog dela iz Mateja i ono što je zanimljivo jeste da oni koji veruju u "spavanje duše" teže da, maltene, ospore ove stihove, kao naknadno umetnute, kao tešku metaforu, interpolacija, neki kažu da je to "firework" uz Raspeće... šta sve već ne...
Jedan napisao "kad bismo sklonili ova dva stiha, onda bi ceo pasus bio sasvim logičan"

S druge strane, apologete mitarstava ove stihove uopšte ni ne uzimaju u obzir.



Naišao sam na zanimljivu zbirku toga šta su rani učitelji Crkve pisali o ovome

Ignatius to the Trallians

“For Says the Scripture, ‘May bodies of the saints that slept arose,’ their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, butHe arose accompanied by a multitude” (chap. Ix, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, p. 70).

Ignatius to the Magnesians (AD 70-115)

“…[T]herefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master—how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? Andtherefore He who they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead” [Chap. IX] (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds. The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I (1885). Reprinted by Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, p. 62. Emphasis added in all these citations).

Irenaeus (AD 120-200)

Irenaeus also was closely linked to the New Testament writers. He knew Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. Irenaeus wrote: “…He [Christ] suffered who can lead those souls aloft that followed His ascension. This event was also an indication of the fact that when the holy hour of Christ descended [to Hades], many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies” (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus XXVIII, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. I, Alexander Roberts, ibid., 572-573). This is followed (in XXIX) by this statement: “The Gospel according to Matthew was written to the Jews. For they had particular stress upon the fact that Christ [should be] of the seed of David. Matthew also, who had a still greater desire [to establish this point], took particular pains to afford them convincing proof that Christ is the seed of David…” (ibid., 573).

Clement of Alexandria (AD 155-200)

Another second century Father verified the historicity of the resurrection of the saints in Matthew 27, writing, “‘But those who had fallen asleep descended dead, but ascended alive.’ Further, the Gospel says, ‘that many bodies of those that slept arose,’—plainly as having been translated to a better state” (Alexander Roberts, ed. Stromata, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. II, chap. VI, 491).

Tertullian (AD 160-222).

The Father of Latin Christianity wrote: “’And the sun grew dark at mid-day;’ (and when did it ‘shudder exceedingly’ except at the passion of Christ, when the earth trembled to her centre, and the veil of the temple was rent, andthe tombs burst asunder?) ‘because these two evils hath My People done’” (Alexander Roberts, ed. An Answer to the Jews, Chap XIII, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, 170).

Hippolytus (AD 170-235)

“And again he exclaims, ‘The dead shall start forth from the graves,’ that is, from the earthly bodies, being born again spiritual, not carnal. For this he says, is the Resurrection that takes place through the gate of heaven, through which, he says, all those that do not enter remain dead” (Alexander Roberts, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, The Refutation of All Heresy, BooK V, chap. 3, p. 54).

Origen (AD 185-254)

“’But,’ continues Celsus, ‘what great deeds did Jesus perform as being a God?…Now to this question, although we are able to show the striking and miraculous character of the events which befell Him, yet from what other source can we furnish an answer than the Gospel narratives, which state that ‘there was an earth quake, and that the rock were split asunder, and the tombs were opened, and the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom, an the darkness prevailed in the day-time, the sun failing to give light’” (Against Celsus, Book II, XXXIII. Alexander Roberts, ed. Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 4, 444-445).

“But if this Celsus, who, in order to find matter of accusation against Jesus and the Christians, extracts from the Gospel even passages which are incorrectly interpreted, but passes over in silence the evidences of the divinity of Jesus, would listen to divine portents, let him read the Gospel, and see that even the centurion, and they who with him kept watch over Jesus, on seeing the earthquake, and the events that occurred, were greatly afraid, saying, ‘This man was the Son of God’” (Ibid., XXVI, p. 446).

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. AD 315-c. 386)

Early Fathers in the East also verified the historicity of the Matthew test. Cyril of Jerusalem wrote: “But it is impossible, some one will say, that the dead should rise; and yet Eliseus [Elisha] twice raised the dead,–when he was live and also when dead…and is Christ not risen? … But in this case both the Dead of whom we speak Himself arose, and many dead were raised without having even touched Him. For many bodies of the Saints which slept arose, and they came out of the graves after His Resurrection, and went into the Holy City, (evidently this city in which we now are,) and appeared to many” (Catechetical Lectures XIV, 16 in Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p, 98).

Further, “I believe that Christ was also raised from the dead, both from the Divine Scriptures, and from the operative power even at this day of Him who arose,–who descended into hell alone, but ascended thence with a great company for He went down to death, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose through Him” (ibid., XIV, 17).

Cyril adds, “He was truly laid as Man in a tomb of rock; but rocks were rent asunder by terror because of Him. He went down into the regions beneath the earth, thence also He might redeem the righteous. For tell me, couldst thou wish the living only to enjoy His grace,… and not wish those who from Adam had a long while been imprisoned to have now gained their liberty?

Gregory of Nazianzus (c. AD 330-c. 389)

“He [Christ] lays down His life, but He has the power to take it again; and the veil rent, for the mysterious doors of Heaven are opened;[5] the rocks are cleft, the dead arise. He dies but he gives life, and by His death destroys death. He is buried, but He rises again. He goes down to Hell, but He brings up the souls; He ascends to Heaven, and shall come again to judge the quick and the dead, and to put to the test such words are yours” (Schaff, ibid., vol. VII, Sect XX, p. 309).

Jerome (AD 342-420)

Speaking of the Matthew 27 text, he wrote: “It is not doubtful to any what these great signs signify according to the letter, namely, that heaven and earth and all things should bear witness to their crucified Lord” (cited in Aquinas, Commentary on the Four Gospels, vol. I, part III: St.Matthew (Oxford: John Henry Parker, 1841), 964.

“As Lazarus rose from the dead, so also did many bodies of the Saints rise again to shew forth the Lord’s resurrection; yet notwithstanding that the graves were opened, they did not rise again before the Lord rose, that He might be the first-born of the resurrection from the dead”(cited by Aquinas, ibid., 963).

Hilary of Poitiers (c. AD 315-c.357)

“The graves were opened, for the bands of death were loosed. And many bodies of the saints which slept arose, for illuminating the darkness of death, and shedding light upon the gloom of Hades, He robbed the spirits of death” (cited by Aquinas, ibid., 963).

Chrysostom (AD 347-407)

“When He [Christ] remained on the cross they had said tauntingly, He saved others, himself he cannot save. But what He should not do for Himself, that He did and more than that for the bodies of the saints. For if it was a great thing to raise Lazarus after four days, much more was it that they who had long slept should not shew themselves above; this is indeed a proof of the resurrection to come. But that it might not be thought that that which was done was an appearance merely, the Evangelist adds, and come out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many” (cited by Aquinas, ibid., 963-964).


St. Augustine (AD 354-430)

The greatest scholar at the beginning of the Middle Ages, St. Augustine, wrote: “As if Moses’ body could not have been hid somewhere…and be raised up therefrom by divine power at the time when Elias and he were seen with Christ: Just as at the time of Christ’s passion many bodies of the saints arose, and after his resurrection appeared, according to the Scriptures, to many in the holy city” (Augustine, On the Gospel of St. John, Tractate cxxiv, 3, Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, 448).

“Matthew proceeds thus: ‘And the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arise, and come out of the graves after the resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.’ There is no reason to fear that these facts, which have been related only by Matthew, may appear to be inconsistent with the narrative present by any one of the rest [of the Gospel writers)…. For as the said Matthew not only tells how the centurion ‘saw the earthquake,’ but also appends the words [in v. 54], ‘and those things that were done’…. Although Matthew has not added any such statement, it would still have been perfectly legitimate to suppose, that as many astonishing things did place at that time…, the historians were at liberty to select for narration any particular incident which they were severally disposed to instance as the subject of the wonder. And it would not be fair to impeach them with inconsistency, simply because one of them may have specified one occurrence as the immediate cause of the centurion’s amazement, while another introduces a different incident” (St. Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, Book III, chap. xxi in Schaff, ibid., vol. VI, p. 206, emphasis added).

St. Remigius (c. 438-c. 533) “Apostle of the Franks”

“But some one will ask, what became of those who rose again when the Lord rose. We must believe that they rose again to be witnesses of the Lord’s resurrection. Some have said that they died again, and were turned to dust, as Lazarus and the rest whom the Lord raised. But we must by no means give credit to these men’s sayings, since if they were to die again, it would be greater torment to them, than if they had not risen again. We ought therefore to believe without hesitation that they who rose from the dead at the Lord’s resurrection, ascended also into heaven together with Him” (cited in Aquinas, ibid., 964).

 

[bas kao]

A i ti bi mogao da najpre ponudiš odgovore na svoja pitanja, prosto da bi pričali

pa, indikativno je da su samo sveti ustali - ja sam kod apostola Pavla naucio da se on trudi da dostigne u vaskrsenje, ne kao da je vec dostigao [kada je to govorio, pisao, Flilipljanima, ne Timoteju, omasio sam na svom sajtu koja je poslanica]

Filibljanima 3,11	Da bih, kako dostigao u vaskrsenije mrtvijeh;
Filibljanima 3,12	Ne kao da već dostigoh ili se već savrših, nego tjeram ne bih li dostigao kao što me dostiže Hristos Isus.

sta mi iz ovoga zakljucujemo, ako znamo da ce neki biti vaskrsnuti za zivot, a neki za sud?
ja ne sudim nikome, rece Hristos; pa, u koje svrhe onda vaskrsavati one koji idu potom na vecne muke?
i sam Pavle kaze da nastoji da DOSTIGNE U VASKRSENJE

Luka 20,35-36 A koji se udostojiše dobiti onaj vek i vaskrsenje iz mrtvih,...

sada je vec potpuno jasno da ima onih koji se nece udostojiti, koji nece dostici u vaskrsenje, a i zasto bi, za sud?
na drugoj strani, vec sam ti rekao da pazis na Irodov kvasac, jer je zlovera da zagovaramo FAZNO VASKRSENJE, prvo najdostojnih, pa dokle stignemo! [i, izvinices me za citate koje si ponudio, sto ih ne komentarisem, od ''otaca'', vise od polovine su bili jeretici].

inace, eto, sada je jasno odakle piscu laznog otkrivenja FAZNO, prvo vaskrsenje svetih, ali nezigosanih sa 666, po njemu, pa potom, za 1000 godina svih ostalih - ja tako necu da ucim, a ovi sveti [vec dostojni 100%] koje je Hristos izveo iz ada, pa zar je trebao da ih ostavi kada je vec bio tamo, i sam usmrcen? da nije neko ljubomoran na te svete?

i opet

Luka 20,35-36 A koji se udostojiše dobiti onaj vek i vaskrsenje iz mrtvih, niti se žene niti udaju, jer više ne mogu umreti, jer su kao andjeli, i sinovi su Božiji kada su sinovi vaskrsenja

nikakav zig zveri 666 oni nisu izbegavali, odbijali, nikakve budalastine

 

[bmaxa]

sta mi iz ovoga zakljucujemo, ako znamo da ce neki biti vaskrsnuti za zivot, a neki za sud?

sta mi iz ovoga zakljucujemo, ako znamo da ce neki biti vaskrsnuti za zivot, a neki za sud?
ja ne sudim nikome, rece Hristos; pa, u koje svrhe onda vaskrsavati one koji idu potom na vecne muke?

Ko хоће да буде бог биће бог, ко хоће и даље да се реинкарнира на земљи и умире биће
тако. Дакле ,....

 

[bas kao]

Ko хоће да буде бог биће бог, ко хоће и даље да се реинкарнира на земљи и умире биће
тако. Дакле ,....

ja mislim da ti ne razumes da su zemlji odbrojani dani, pa samim tim i reinkarnacijama

a ti koji bi nesto hteli, pa pune ludnice takvih

 

[bas kao]

A i ti bi mogao da najpre ponudiš odgovore na svoja pitanja, prosto da bi pričali

inace, ja sam te odgovore vec ponudio, a mnoge druge koje LJUBOMORNO cuvam me u stvari niko nije ni pitao, i tesko da ce me pitati, jer je malo verovatno da ih se iko i setio

 

[bmaxa]

ja mislim da ti ne razumes da su zemlji odbrojani dani, pa samim tim i reinkarnacijama

a ti koji bi nesto hteli, pa pune ludnice takvih

Otkud ti to? Богови су ти којима треба земља не људима.

 

[bas kao]

Otkud ti to? Богови су ти којима треба земља не људима.

te koje ti nazivas bogovima ja ne zovem uopste, jer su to demoni
znam ja da njima treba zemlja, ali ne dam bre, neka cuce na ''visokim mestima'' u podnebesju, i neka 'vataju mitar ekipu i globe je

S druge strane, apologete mitarstava ove stihove uopšte ni ne uzimaju u obzir.

kad su ignoranti, neznalice, prave se tose/naivni - samo neka nastave da se hvale kako svete siluju demoni u mitarstvima, i tako se ''tese'' da ni njih ne ceka ista bolje

 

[bmaxa]

te koje ti nazivas bogovima ja ne zovem uopste, jer su to demoni

Сад си мало контрадикторан, са једне стране ти се не свиђају демони, а са друге минираш
пророчанство које најављује крај томе? У чему је фазон ? ЧП

 

[bas kao]

Сад си мало контрадикторан, са једне стране ти се не свиђају демони, а са друге минираш
пророчанство које најављује крај томе? У чему је фазон ? ЧП

to prorocanstvo najavljuje svemu kraj, ali na kraju sveta - pa zar su ljudi maloumni, jer koja je svrha na kraju sveta? malo sutra, a?

ne, Hristos rece jos onda da mu se dade svaka vlast, a ne tamo nekad, malo sutra, u buducnosti, a prvp da demoni istrebe trecinu i sta sve ne - NECE MOCI!

na zemlji im nema mesta, ni njima ni njemu
i opet:

1. Dopuna: Zaharija 13 i paralele u Novom Zavetu sa uklanjanjem proroka i nečistog duha

I u taj ću dan, govori Gospod nad vojskama, istrebiti iz zemlje imena idolima da se više ne spominju, i proroke i nečisti duh ukloniću iz zemlje.

Matej 12:43 ~ Luka 11:24 A kad nečisti duh [OTK. 1,10; 4,2] izidje iz čoveka ide kroz bezvodna mesta [OTK. 21,1] tražeći pokoja i ne nadje ga (vidi AVAKUM 2,5)
12,44 Onda reče: da se vratim u dom svoj otkuda sam izišao i došavši nadje prazan, pometen i ukrašen. [OTK. 21,19]
12,45 Tada otide i uzme sa sobom sedam drugih duhova gorih od sebe [OTK.1,4 i 20; 2; 3; 8,6…] i ušavši žive onde i bude potonje gore čoveku onome od prvoga. Tako će biti i ovome rodu zlome.

 

[bmaxa]

to prorocanstvo najavljuje svemu kraj, ali na kraju sveta

Одакле ти то? Како то схваташ? Немој да те плаше алегорије, све је то много једноставније него што ти се чини ЧП

 

[Сале]

Prvo, hajde da vidimo šta ti tu smatraš kaznom.
Drugo, rekao bih da su posledice usledile, ne samo nakon što nisu poslušali savet Božiji (a ono "ne jedite od ploda tog drveta" jeste savet), nego upravo od trenutka kad nisu priznali grešku, već počeli da je prebacuju jedni na druge.

proterivanje i kojekakvih muka na njih.

pa nije baš savet, jer kaže da im zabranio.
po meni taj test bi imao smisla da su znali da ne valja ne slušati boga.
pravi test tek sledi
"ko ti kaza da si go"
oni nisu znali ni da su goli.
seti se svoje dece kad su bili mali, dok im nisi govorio da je sramota biti go oni su šeprljali goli po kući i kad neko dođe nisu se stideli.
bog stvorio adama i evu, adamu rekao da obrezuje vrt i ne smeš jesti plod sa jednog od dva drveta u sred vrta.
ko ti kaza da si go - govori samo o tome da nisu baš nešto ćaskali. e po znanju, čovek shvata da se zeznuo i pokazuje sklonost ka grehu. "ne bi ja ali žena me zajeba, ti znaš da sam ja dobar i naivan."