Slovensko nasleđe u Grčkoj

[gost 420053]

 

[Mrkalj]

https://www.google.com/maps/search/Porto+Carras/@40.1179456,23.8704277,1050m/data=!3m1!1e3

Dragoudeliou - Karra

Dragudelja?

 

[Рнђа]

Old ethnic map of Peloponnese

Description	Old ethnic map of the Pelopones peninsula, by Alfred Philippson
Date	1890
Source	Petermanns Mitteilungen
Author	own scan

 

[Рнђа]

управо налетех и на...

Zervos (Greek: Ζερβός) is the name of a folk dance in Karpathos and Eastern Rumelia (Northern Thrace - Βόρεια Θράκη)(Ανατολική Ρωμυλία) which is danced in Greece and generally in the Balkans anticlockwise (to the left). The music is generally played with a lyre (Kemenche) (or violin), lute, accordion and mandolin (or gaida).

 

[Carlin15]

Old ethnic map of Peloponnese

Description	Old ethnic map of the Pelopones peninsula, by Alfred Philippson
Date	1890
Source	Petermanns Mitteilungen
Author	own scan

Pogledajte prilog 639202

Philippson admits that Slavic colonies existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some Slavic place names reinforce this supposition.

PS:

The emigrations from the "north" after the conquests of Carlo Tocco were not, as has sometimes been said, the product of a massive expulsion of Albanians by the Tocco, but influenced by the attractions of the almost deserted lands of the Peloponnese to the Albanians (and Vlachs).

 

[Рнђа]

Jezero Ozeros

zapadno od grada koji se zvao Vrachori (Βραχώρι) , moguće zbog praznika Vračevi...danas grad nosi naziv Agrinio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozeros

Old ethnic map of Peloponnese

Description	Old ethnic map of the Pelopones peninsula, by Alfred Philippson
Date	1890
Source	Petermanns Mitteilungen
Author	own scan

Pogledajte prilog 639202

веза на мапу је
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Pelopones_ethnic.JPG

На крајњем југу Пелопонеза испод ЛАКОНИА подвучено је ЕЗЕРИТЕН.
На крајњем југозападу полуострва КРИВИТЗЕН.


југозападно од Језерића уз обалу видите још и планину ТРИГОНАС или ТРИГОРАС. Ороним ТРИ - "ГЛАВ"?
Мој фаворит је ЗАРНАТА.

 

[Рнђа]

Philippson admits that Slavic colonies existed in Vatika also, that is to say south of the fortress of Tzaconia and close to Monemvasia. Some Slavic place names reinforce this supposition.

PS:

The emigrations from the "north" after the conquests of Carlo Tocco were not, as has sometimes been said, the product of a massive expulsion of Albanians by the Tocco, but influenced by the attractions of the almost deserted lands of the Peloponnese to the Albanians (and Vlachs).

Колега, шта мислите о ограђивању аутора у легенди мапе у вези Словена односно о штрчећој напомени да се ради о утицају од 9-ог до 12-тог века? Иначе не разбирам тачно шта пише пише испред па ако неко зна немачки и прочита то за све нас, бићу захвалан.

Сигурно сте већ расправљали о 8 (а мин. 5) вековном трајању топонима(, оронима и хидронима) далеко од живог народа из чијег су језика, а међ народом који говори потпуно стран језик. Јесте ли постигли неки начелни договор да ли је и како је то могуће?

 

[Рнђа]

превод напомене:

Slawische Stämme und von Slaven bewohnte Gaue und Ortschaften im 9ten bis 12ten Jahrhundert
Slavic tribes and counties and localities inhabited by Slavs in the 9th to 12th centuries

 

[Рнђа]

Kastanitsa

Kastanitsa (Greek: Καστάνιτσα, Tsakonian: Γαστένιτσα) is a village in Arcadia in Greece, on the southern slope of Mount Parnon. It is considered a traditional settlement. It is noted for its production of chestnuts, from which it takes its name, and for formerly being a majority Tsakonian-speaking settlement.
...
Kastanitsa is first mentioned in writing in 1293, but the settlement is thought to be nearly two centuries older, founded by Tsakones fleeing the rule of Slavic tribes that had invaded the Peloponnese. According to Kastaniot tradition, the village was founded by two families called Pentalonas and Bezenikos.

Tsakonas

The term Tsakonas or Tzakonas first emerges in the writings of Byzantine chroniclers who derive the ethnonym from a corruption of Lakonas, a Laconian/Lacedaemonian (Spartan)—a reference to the Doric roots of the Tsakonian language and the people's very late conversion to Christianity in the 9th century and practice of traditional Hellenic customs, a fact which correlated with their isolation from mainstream medieval Greek society. What is often considered the first reference to Tsakonians is a note from around 950 by Constantine Porphyrogenitus in his De Arte Imperiando, "the inhabitants of the district of Main... are of the older Greeks, who are to this day called Hellenes (pagans) by the locals for being pagans in time past and worshippers of idols, like the Hellenes of old, and were baptised and became Christians during the reign of the late Basil (867–886)", with Maina in his usage typically interpreted to instead mean Tsakonia.

The Tsakonians are thought to have been often border guards in the Byzantine military, judging by the number of references to τζάκωνες and τζέκωνες playing such roles in Byzantine Greek writings.The first reference to their "barbaric" speech being unintelligible to Koine Greek dates to the 15th century.




језичке занимљивости

English	Modern Greek	Tsakonian (Greek alphabet)	Tsakonian (Latin script)	Tsakonian (Costakis Notation)
Where is his/her/its room?	Πού είναι το δωμάτιό του/της;	Κιά έννι το όντα σι;	Kiá éni to óda si?	κιά έν̇ι το όντα σι;

Kiá = Кај (македонски) = Кје (словеначки) = Где

плус (у вези старијег имена)

Maina = мејна (гранична, словеначки); меја = међа



Некакав закључак: Тсакони се чине занимљив реликт.

 

[Carlin15]

Predrag Komatina istice da Cakoni nisu potomci antickih Lakedemonjana.

PS:

 

[Carlin15]

1) Guglielmo de Verona in 1263 supplied Villehardouin with a contingent of troops to subjugate the Slav revolt in Tzakonia.

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=YDwLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=Slav+revolt+Tzakonia&source=bl&ots=ZcvUrxI3pG&sig=ACfU3U1GEd-otSyrss2KHQ31RLyxD4Dhxg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXoeXzhZHnAhUHGs0KHYs-C_sQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Slav revolt Tzakonia&f=false

2) This particular Venetian text, issued in 1485, is an order referring to the area around the castle of Monemvasia, which referred to Tzakonia as Slavonia.

URL:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=i_...QAQ#v=onepage&q=ZACHONIE VEL SLAVONIE&f=false

3) The following comes from page 80 of a short dictionary published in Venice in 1827 and known under the title Nuovo Dizionario Geografico Portatile (New Geographical Dictionary, Portable).

Specifically, it is reported that there was a mixture in that area (mescuglio = mixture in the Venetian language) of Spartani and Slavs (Schiavoni = Slavs in the Venetian language) at that time.

 

[Рнђа]

This particular Venetian text, issued in 1485, is an order referring to the area around the castle of Monemvasia, which referred to Tzakonia as Slavonia

1. Спарта, па испод ње Sklav...?
2. Племе МЕЛИНЦЕР

 

[Carlin15]

Pogledajte prilog 639240

1. Спарта, па испод ње Sklav...?
2. Племе МЕЛИНЦЕР

1. Sklavochorion, "the chief town of the Sclavonian population of the district":
https://books.google.ca/books?id=eE...wBnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=sklavochorion&f=false

2. Милинзи:
https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Милинзи

 

[Carlin15]

Chranoi is a village in the municipality of Megalopoli, southwest Arcadia, Greece.

The name Chranoi (Χράνοι) probably derives from the Slavic word Hrana (Хpaнa) which literally means 'crop', probably in relation to the village's agricultural nature. This name, along with other Slavic village names, like Andravida, is proof of Slavic presence in the Peloponnese during the Middle Ages, though the extent of said presence is unknown. Chranoi and the area around it has been inhabited since at least the 15th century.

URL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chranoi

 

[Рнђа]

Милинзи су били јужнословенско племе које је насељавало грчко полуострово Пелопонез због добрих пољопривредних услова од 6. века, претежно планинске венце Тајгетоса (грч. Ταΰγετος), на западним странама архипелага. Бавили су се углавном земљорадњом и сточарством. У њиховом суседству је живело словенско племе Језераца.


...
The Taygetus, Taugetus, Taygetos or Taÿgetus (Greek: Ταΰγετος, romanized: Taygetos) is a mountain range in the Peloponnese peninsula in Southern Greece. The highest mountain of the range is Mount Taygetus, also known as the "Profitis Ilias", or "Prophet Elias". The name is one of the oldest recorded in Europe, appearing in the Odyssey. In classical mythology, it was associated with the nymph Taygete.
...
The slopes of Taygetus have been inhabited since at least Mycenean times. The site of Arkina, near the village of Arna, contains three beehive tombs and is still unexplored. Taygetus was important as one of Sparta's natural defenses. The Spartans threw criminals and "unfit" (weak, sickly, deformed, or mentally challenged) infants into a chasm of Taygetus known as Ceadas or Caeadas (Greek: Καιάδας).
...
The peak known as Taleton, above Bryseae, was 'dedicated' to Helios, the Sun, to whom horses were sacrificed. Taleton was also 'dedicated' to Zeus. Today, the mountain is closely associated with the holy Prophet Elias, and every year on the 20th of July (the Greek Orthodox name day for the Prophet Elias), the small chapel at the peak holds a large festival, including a massive bonfire in commemoration of the Prophet Elias (note: a Greek-style transliteration of 'Eliyah,' אליה the prophet), as he is believed to have ascended up into heaven in a chariot of fire. The bonfire can be seen from anywhere with clear view of the summit, and it is for this reason that the town of Kardamyli is a local gathering point for those who wish to view the fire without having to climb the mountain.
...



...
Bryseae or Bryseai (Ancient Greek: Βρυσειαί, Βρυσεαί, or Βρυσιαί) was a town of ancient Laconia, southwest of Sparta, at the foot of the ordinary exit from Mount Taygetus. Its name occurs in Homer's Iliad, but it had dwindled down to a small village in the time of Pausanias, who mentions, however, a temple of Dionysus at the place, into which women alone were permitted to enter, and of which they performed the sacred rites. William Martin Leake claimed to have discovered the site of Bryseae at the village of Sinánbey near Sklavokóri (modern Amykles). He remarks that the marble from Sklavokhóri, which was presented by the Earl of Aberdeen to the British Museum, probably came from the above-mentioned temple at Bryseae: it bears the name of two priestesses, and represents various articles of female apparel. Leake found another marble at Sinánbey, which is also in the British Museum. Leake's claims notwithstanding, modern scholars treat Bryseae's site as unlocated.

 

[Lesandar]

Милинзи су били јужнословенско племе које је насељавало грчко полуострово Пелопонез због добрих пољопривредних услова од 6. века, претежно планинске венце Тајгетоса (грч. Ταΰγετος), на западним странама архипелага. Бавили су се углавном земљорадњом и сточарством. У њиховом суседству је живело словенско племе Језераца.

Meni su impresivni podaci o tome kako Sloveni koji ognjem i mačem zauzmu neku teritoriju, ostanu tu kao pitčkice i obrađuju zemlju.

 

[NickFreakyrgios]

Meni su impresivni podaci o tome kako Sloveni koji ognjem i mačem zauzmu neku teritoriju, ostanu tu kao pitčkice i obrađuju zemlju.

Они су освојили Пелопонез и имали своју сркву , домицијално становништво се преселило на Сицилију , сад ту је био период иконоборства и мрачно доба рата са Сараценима где се Византија у једном тренутку своди на територију Београда. То је погодовало за ширење Словена. Византија се око 9. века враћа на своје територије где затиче Словене са којима најбоље не зна шта да ради тако да их је до 12. века ромеизовала.
Језерити и Милинзи су се ујединили са сараценима против Грка која им је наметала своју цркву а они су имали својју богумилску цркву до 12. века.

Не знамо о односима Арапа и Словена ако би то схватили да су имали неке савезе све би било лако објашњиво.

 

[White Guar]

Meni su impresivni podaci o tome kako Sloveni koji ognjem i mačem zauzmu neku teritoriju, ostanu tu kao pitčkice i obrađuju zemlju.

Архетипски фармери-ратници, нешто попут Викинга касније.

Иначе слабо познајем ову тематику али сад видим да су Словени малтене држали целу Грчку пре "хеленизације" у 9. веку. Где је тај народ данас? Морали су остати некакви генетски остаци.

 

[NickFreakyrgios]

Архетипски фармери-ратници, нешто попут Викинга касније.

Иначе слабо познајем ову тематику али сад видим да су Словени малтене држали целу Грчку пре "хеленизације" у 9. веку. Где је тај народ данас? Морали су остати некакви генетски остаци.

Остали су архелошки остаци дуж целог грчког копна па и на Акропољу , то је под притиском морала признати и грчка археологија писали смо на много тема о томе а мислим да књига "Словени и Ромеји" Тибора Живковића можда још неке не могу да се сетим имају доста података о томе , многа писма су сачувана у грчкој цркви.
Једноставно Грци су им наметнули своју цркву и полако ромејизовали.

 

[Сребрена]

Једноставно Грци су им наметнули своју цркву и полако ромејизовали.

Погрчили их.

 

[Lesandar]

Архетипски фармери-ратници, нешто попут Викинга касније.

Иначе слабо познајем ову тематику али сад видим да су Словени малтене држали целу Грчку пре "хеленизације" у 9. веку. Где је тај народ данас? Морали су остати некакви генетски остаци.

U zavisnosti od izvora, nekih 25 - 30% Grka dele identičnu slovensku genetiku sa nama. Znajući da je nasilno promenjena genetska struktura pre Drugog svetskog rata i da je u Grčku uvezeno oko milion i dvesta hiljada (od dva miliona koliko je izašlo iz Turske) pravoslavnog stanovništva iz Efeskog kraja koje je identično arapizovanim Turcima i koje je učilo grčki jezik iz početka, a pritom proterano svo islamizovano( bez obzira na poreklo) i deklarisano slovensko stanovništvo može se izračunati da su Grci bili manjina u Grčkoj do skora.

 

[Рнђа]

U zavisnosti od izvora, nekih 25 - 30% Grka dele identičnu slovensku genetiku sa nama. Znajući da je nasilno promenjena genetska struktura pre Drugog svetskog rata i da je u Grčku uvezeno oko milion i dvesta hiljada (od dva miliona koliko je izašlo iz Turske) pravoslavnog stanovništva iz Efeskog kraja koje je identično arapizovanim Turcima i koje je učilo grčki jezik iz početka, a pritom proterano svo islamizovano( bez obzira na poreklo) i deklarisano slovensko stanovništvo može se izračunati da su Grci bili manjina u Grčkoj do skora.

39:10

језиво

 

[Carlin15]

Kastanitsa

Kastanitsa (Greek: Καστάνιτσα, Tsakonian: Γαστένιτσα) is a village in Arcadia in Greece, on the southern slope of Mount Parnon. It is considered a traditional settlement. It is noted for its production of chestnuts, from which it takes its name, and for formerly being a majority Tsakonian-speaking settlement.
...
Kastanitsa is first mentioned in writing in 1293, but the settlement is thought to be nearly two centuries older, founded by Tsakones fleeing the rule of Slavic tribes that had invaded the Peloponnese. According to Kastaniot tradition, the village was founded by two families called Pentalonas and Bezenikos.

Tsakonas

The term Tsakonas or Tzakonas first emerges in the writings of Byzantine chroniclers who derive the ethnonym from a corruption of Lakonas, a Laconian/Lacedaemonian (Spartan)—a reference to the Doric roots of the Tsakonian language and the people's very late conversion to Christianity in the 9th century and practice of traditional Hellenic customs, a fact which correlated with their isolation from mainstream medieval Greek society. What is often considered the first reference to Tsakonians is a note from around 950 by Constantine Porphyrogenitus in his De Arte Imperiando, "the inhabitants of the district of Main... are of the older Greeks, who are to this day called Hellenes (pagans) by the locals for being pagans in time past and worshippers of idols, like the Hellenes of old, and were baptised and became Christians during the reign of the late Basil (867–886)", with Maina in his usage typically interpreted to instead mean Tsakonia.

The Tsakonians are thought to have been often border guards in the Byzantine military, judging by the number of references to τζάκωνες and τζέκωνες playing such roles in Byzantine Greek writings.The first reference to their "barbaric" speech being unintelligible to Koine Greek dates to the 15th century.




језичке занимљивости

English	Modern Greek	Tsakonian (Greek alphabet)	Tsakonian (Latin script)	Tsakonian (Costakis Notation)
Where is his/her/its room?	Πού είναι το δωμάτιό του/της;	Κιά έννι το όντα σι;	Kiá éni to óda si?	κιά έν̇ι το όντα σι;

Kiá = Кај (македонски) = Кје (словеначки) = Где

плус (у вези старијег имена)

Maina = мејна (гранична, словеначки); меја = међа



Некакав закључак: Тсакони се чине занимљив реликт.

1) Tsakonian dialect of Modern Greek
Maxim Kisilier & Valentina Fedchenko

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Tsakonian-dialect-of-Modern-Greek

Despite multiple descriptions Tsakonian still remains one of the most mysterious Modern Greek (= MG) dialects. Brian Newton even prefers to exclude it from his classification, and Peter Trudgill finds just few isoglosses that are relevant both for Tsakonian and other MG dialects. Most descriptions of Tsakonian keep repeating that Tsakonian is the most ancient MG dialect, it escaped any influence of Hellenistic Koine and its strange features still exist because the speakers did not contacts with the speakers of other MG dialects till in 1960–1970th.
However, Tsakonians were not so isolated as it might seem and many Tsakonian peculiarities (special phonetics, analytic verb forms etc.) cannot be easily explained, but comparing with other MG dialects or by means of typological analysis.
The data I gathered in Tsakonia during last six years makes me disagree with the widespread opinion. The analysis of vocabulary definitely shows many loans from Italian (/koléγa/ ‘friend’), especially from the Venetian dialect (bobóta ‘maize bread’) and various Balkan languages: Slavic (/ambárja/ ‘granary’), Albanian (/kórbe/ ‘black goat’), Aromanian (/búrda/ ‘sack’). Most Tsakonian words (regardless their origin) have parallels in other MG dialects. For example, /strúnga/ ‘yard for cattle’, /vlámi/ ‘lover’, /fára/ ‘family, tribe’ are also met in Thessalian. It means that Tsakonian was in continuous contact with other languages and probably with other MG dialects. Probably this experience of permanent multilingual situation helped Tsakonian to survive when Standard MG became dominant in the region.

2) Palatal Sonants in Tsakonian. Discussing the Problem
Maxim Kisilier & Valentina Fedchenko

http://www.tsakonianarchives.gr/meletes-palatal-sonants-tsakonian-discussing-problem/

Tsakonian is the most mysterious Greek dialect. Famous Turkish traveler Evliya Çelebi noted about 1668 that nobody can understand inhabitants of Tsakonia without an interpreter: they speak neither Greek nor Italian. Even today Tsakonian is almost incomprehensible for other Greeks. It falls out of all current classifications of Greek dialects because the majority of Tsakonian phonetic features doesn’t coincide with the isoglosses that are valid for other Greek dialects. Palatal sonants, their status and mutation still remain a matter of discussion. For example, the distribution of palatal and non-palatal sonants is unclear. Another problem deals with the conditions of mutation, i. e. it is often not clear if the mutation depends just on phonological environment or is also affected by certain extralinguistic factors, like the sex of the speaker.

3) The verb of the Aromanian language, by Antonis Bousboukis

http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2017/05/the-verb-of-aromanian-language-by.html

Katsanis also finds matches of the Aromanian with the Tsakonian (Greek dialect), matches that ‘are phonetic, morphological and lexical. The first (phonetic) are the most frequent, while morphological and lexical ones are not that much’.


PS:

Source: Les Tzacones, By Stamatis C. Caratzas

Page 101: “Nous pouvons donc bien supposer que le terme Tzacones etait connu en Allemagne au 13eme siecle comme designant de nombreux heretiques dont une partie habitait dans des pays allemands et etait slavophone.”

Page 101: “So we can well suppose that the term Tzacones was known in Germany in the 13th century as designating many "heretics" that lived in a part of German countries and was Slavophone.”

 

[svakodnevnica]

Остали су архелошки остаци дуж целог грчког копна па и на Акропољу , то је под притиском морала признати и грчка археологија писали смо на много тема о томе а мислим да књига "Словени и Ромеји" Тибора Живковића можда још неке не могу да се сетим имају доста података о томе , многа писма су сачувана у грчкој цркви.
Једноставно Грци су им наметнули своју цркву и полако ромејизовали.

To se ne bi desilo da su jezeriti i milinzi bili ispravni vernici, a ne sektaši. Pobedom nad bogumilstvom, grci su stekli pravo i da ih pogrče. Pobednik može sve, jel tako....

 

[svakodnevnica]

Pogledajte prilog 639240

1. Спарта, па испод ње Sklav...?
2. Племе МЕЛИНЦЕР

Sloveni kao pitomi narod lako prihvataju asimilaciju... dok vidimo ovde arvanite kako se drže svojski. E sad u današnje vreme grci su i njih malo pritisli i svi su pravoslavni... ne znam baš kakvo je stanje danas na peloponezu, ali mislim da jos uvek egzistiraju iako su progrčki ... Elem, jel zna neko genezu reči arvanita ?