Slovenski toponimi čine većinu toponima Albanije - ko bi se tome nadao? (Google maps)

[Сребрена]

Planina Đurađ izgleda da je dobila ime po zaboravljenom kralju Djurdju

Kralja Đurđa pominje Orbini
http://books.google.rs/books?id=E5q...a=X&ei=ONrwU5PWJITuyQPglYK4Ag&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAg
http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Đorđe_Bodinović

Mpguće da je to današnja GURI I TOPIT planina
Monte Guri i Topit (quota 2120).
http://mapcarta.com/13908494

 

[sokolska]

Дунавец/Дунавек није баш поток, него гадна блатњава река. Види путопис француског конзула из 1875:
Leaving Gártcha, the road carries on over the plain, crossing several muddy ditches with creeks in them, the most important of which being the Dounavek [Dunavec]. They caused much difficulty for our horses because there were high dikes on both sides of them to prevent flooding. The plain turns left and becomes a narrow valley.
http://www.albanianhistory.net/en/te...99/AH1875.html

Ne znam bas, meni je to potok, uostalom i u tom prevodu se koristi rec creek, to znaci potok a ne reka.
Evo snimak Dunaveca pa nek svako proceni za sebe , most izmedju sela Bulgarec i Lumalas:

ili na austrijskoj karti:

Uspeo sam da nadjem i nasu kartu 1:100,000 za Korču, moze se pratiti ceo tok Dunaveca do utoka u Malićsko jezero/blato:
http://www.makpetrol.com.mk/planinari/Maps/Korca.tif

 

[Сребрена]

Осум =Десница

Река Десница и област Десник:


Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly;(1820) F. Pouqueville
. We came at last to a bridge over the Desnitza, the river which comes down from Bousi, distant six leagues up the valley leading over to Berat. At this bridge ends the territory of Premiti, and begins that of Desnitza.

Река Дрина (Дринопољска) и град Дринопољ (данашњи Аргирокастрон)

Travels in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly;(1820)F. Pouqueville
When, however, I had advanced a mile from Tebelen, near some springs issuing from the roots of Mount Argenik, my attention was called to certain terraces or banks and ditches, which, by their distribution, seemed to indicate the encampment of Flamininus. Two miles farther on, I came to the junction of the Celydnus, or the river of Drynopolis with the Aous.

... At the end of three hours' delightful ride, we entered what is properly the valley of the Argyrians, now of Drynopolis; and to have time to make my remarks, ..... While at breakfast, I opened my project of going to Argyro-Castro, a project which it required my utmost power to engage my conductors to adopt...Argyro-Castro, which I found distracted with sanguinary and endless contentions, is situated on three spurs from the mountains on the west, ending abruptly over the valley of the Celydnus on the east.
http://kroraina.com/knigi/en/fp/fp_7.html
http://kroraina.com/knigi/en/fp/index.html

Уместо печених црепова на крововима кућа, Дринопољ (Једрене)) има камене плоче уместо црепова на кућама, исто као и у Србији (југоисток данашње Србије)..због одсјаја тих камених "црепова", углачаних временом, Грци су град назвали "Сребрни замак" :
грчки Αργυρόκαστρο или Γυρόκαστρο, Argyrókastro или Gyrókastro,
италијалански: Argirocastro
албански: Gjirokastër или Gjirokastra
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr/Ђирокастра

 

[Сребрена]

Sokolska, vidi ovu kartu (postavio link dvukeljić na nekoj drugoj temi)
http://ancientrome.ru/map/prov/danuvius01.htm

Ima pet jezera, i peto je ono Malićko (malić je peti prst šake), Ohridsko i obe Prespe su prva tri, a koje je četvrto?

 

[Mrkalj]

http://ancientrome.ru/map/prov/danuvius01.htm

 

[Игорь]

jer Karpe stavlja u belu Hrvatsku a Racatae (takođe pleme Dačana) u belu Srbiju....
znamo da je Srbima alternativno ime Rašani pa bi Racatae bio način da se to zapiše

Срби себе нису називали Рашанима, а име Рашке у крајњој линији води порекло од назива утврђења Арса.

u vezi ovoga napomenuo bih da je jezik Dačana slabo poznat...da je bio satem kao slovenski jezici...
i da su se imena gradova Dačana završavala nastavkom dava u značenju istom kao tvrđava
naša reč tvrđava bi mogla da bude tvrda dava to jest jaka iliti tvrda tvrđava

28. јануар 2014.

Такав наставак не постоји у Словена. Реч тврђава садржи наставак -(ј)ава, као нпр. и речи мећава, ломљава, грмљава, звоњава.
Требао си пазити на часовима српскога језика.

 

[truthSeeker]

odgovor premešten na temu etnološke sličnosti...
http://forum.krstarica.com/showthread.php/677852-Etnolo%C5%A1ke-sli%C4%8Dnosti-i-razlike-Srba-sa-drugim-narodima/page9

 

[Mrkalj]

ne postoji nastavak...
ali sačuvalo se to dava u reči tvrđava...u istom značenju...

Sačuvalo se, bogami, i to tvr (Televizija Rumunija).

 

[Игорь]

Sačuvalo se, bogami, i to tvr (Televizija Rumunija).

Ово ме лепо насмеја.

 

[truthSeeker]

Sačuvalo se, bogami, i to tvr (Televizija Rumunija).

ako reč ima istu formu i isto značenje onda to najčešće nije slučajnost...
ti uporno nalaziš sličnosti gde je samo forma ista, a podsmevaš se mom primeru gde je i forma i značenje isto...

tvrđava je očigledno složenica čija je prva reč tvrdo
uostalom zašto bi reč utvrda bila takođe izvedena od reči tvrd

ako razdvojimo tvrđava na delove dobijamo tvrd i dava, java, djava ili ava...
ava je nastavak koji koriste Tračani, dava nastavak koji koriste Dačani za utvrđenja,,,
Dačani i Tračani to je sve isti kulturni krug...

a jezik Rumuna je iskvareni latinski..koji ima znatnu komponentu slovenskih jezika...

 

[Mrkalj]

ako reč ima istu formu i isto značenje onda to najčešće nije slučajnost...
ti uporno nalaziš sličnosti gde je samo forma ista, a podsmevaš se mom primeru gde je i forma i značenje isto...

tvrđava je očigledno složenica čija je prva reč tvrdo
uostalom zašto bi reč utvrda bila takođe izvedena od reči tvrd

ako razdvojimo tvrđava na delove dobijamo tvrd i dava, java, djava ili ava...
ava je nastavak koji koriste Tračani, dava nastavak koji koriste Dačani za utvrđenja,,,
Dačani i Tračani to je sve isti kulturni krug...

a jezik Rumuna je iskvareni latinski..koji ima znatnu komponentu slovenskih jezika...

Ne moraš da ponavljaš ono što si rekao, to mi je jasno. Samo mi ovo ponovi - šta na srpskom znači "dava"?

 

[truthSeeker]

Ne moraš da ponavljaš ono što si rekao, to mi je jasno. Samo mi ovo ponovi - šta na srpskom znači "dava"?

izvini ali ti ne shvataš kako funkcionišu jezici......
neke reči izumru...
umesto dava što je značilo tvrđava u upotrebu je ušlo složenica tvrđava i skraćeno utvrda

reč duvar je zid...duvar i dava je isto u značenju i slično u formi...
ako nis znao šta znači "doterao cara do duvara", sad znaš

ne zam što uopšte raspravljam sa ljudima koji ne shvataju kako se razvijaju jezici

mi kažemo zid a Tračani su govorili diza,
mi kažemo duvar a Dačani su govorili dava
Rusi, Ukrajinci i Poljaci i Slovaci kažu stena i mur
a Česi odakle Srbi dolaze na Balkan kažu zed i stena

znači zid nije usvojeno po dolasku Srba na Balkan
već su Srbi sa Balkana odneli reč zid do privremenog staništa oko reke Vistule (ruska primarna hronika) a odatle u Češku

korišćenje i reči zvedene iz jezika Dačana i reči izvedene iz jezika Tračana stavlja pra Srbe na Balkanu u kontakt sa jednima i drugima a to mogu biti samo Scordisci
koji su tačno na teritoriji gde ruska primarna hronika smešta podunavske Slovene među kojima eksplicitno navodi Srbe...ruska primarna hronika kaže da su u oblast oko reke Vistule otišli kada su ih pritisli Vlakh ljudi... ovo mogu biti Volcae oko 300 BC ili Rimljani tj. Vlasi oko 0 AD... u prvom slučaju Scordsci bi bili deo pra Srba koji je keltizovan, u drugom slučaju Scordisci bi bili pra Srbi...

 

[Mrkalj]

ne zam što uopšte raspravljam sa ljudima koji ne shvataju kako se razvijaju jezici

Ni ja.

 

[truthSeeker]

Ni ja.

pa ne razumem zašto ti je onda u avataru ogledalo ako ne pričaš sam sa sobom

 

[sokolska]

reč duvar je zid...duvar i dava je isto u značenju i slično u formi...
ako nis znao šta znači "doterao cara do duvara", sad znaš

turska rec...

izvini ali ti ne shvataš kako funkcionišu jezici......
neke reči izumru...
umesto dava što je značilo tvrđava u upotrebu je ušlo složenica tvrđava i skraćeno utvrda

tvrdjava je izvedenica od prideva TVRD, ti si rec tvrd+java rasclanio na tvr+djava, to je isto kao da si zvon+java rasclanio na zvo+njava, ili mesar na na me+sar kao sto je radio pokojni stanislav, a pri tom jos tvrdis da je izvedenica ( tvrdjava, utvrda ) starija od osnovne reci ( tvrd )... Prvo malo nauci kako ide tvorba reci u srpskom jeziku pa predji na one jezike koje poznajes jos manje.

 

[truthSeeker]

turska rec...

tvrdjava je izvedenica od prideva TVRD, ti si rec tvrd+java rasclanio na tvr+djava, to je isto kao da si zvon+java rasclanio na zvo+njava, ili mesar na na me+sar kao sto je radio pokojni stanislav, a pri tom jos tvrdis da je izvedenica ( tvrdjava, utvrda ) starija od osnovne reci ( tvrd )... Prvo malo nauci kako ide tvorba reci u srpskom jeziku pa predji na one jezike koje poznajes jos manje.

u koju složenicu bi prešla grupa reči
tvrda dava
izgovori to nekoliko puta..
"...da da.." smeta u izgovoru...kako bi lakše izgovorio? i brže?

zanimljivo je i kod Poljaka reč twierdza za tvrđavu...

da li misliš da je
twierd + za
ili
twierd + diza gde je "diza" tračanska reč za zid


"duvar" niji turska reč nego arhaična srpska reč ...
Turci su usvojili mnogo reči u centralnoj Aziji...

objasni mi otkud zid kao Dīvāra na hindu jeziku? da nisu Turci osvojili Indiju i nametnuli im reč "duvar"?
na Gujarati jeziku Indije je Divāla..
istočni Iranci imaju slične oblike....
npr. kod Paštuna zid je Daiwall i Jadar (eto ideje šta značI Jadar i Zadar)
pa je za pretpostaviti da je i kod Sarmata bila nešto slično..


a imaš i reč "dveri" koja je istog porekla kao "duvar" jer reči označavaju povezane predmete...vrata ili kapija se uvek nalazi na zidu......
na staro avestanskom dveri su "dvara"
očigledno je i reč "dvor" istog porekla...jer dvor je bio upravo ime za kuću koji ima utvrđenje iliti zid koji je odvaja od kuća običnih ljudi
na sanskritu "dvaraka" su vrata, kapija tj. dveri..a tvrđava je dravya...
.uzgred na sanskritu kružni zid je "kaksya" slično kao naša saksija.....

reč duvar i povezane reči dvor i dveri su očigledno PIE ili možda indoarijevske a nikako turske
otkud nama ne znam... mislim možda od Sarmata ili alternativno pre 2800BC kad je deo R1a (Z94 grana) u istočnoj Evropi krenuo na jug gde je u narednih 800 godina stigao preko Sirije (gde se u Ugaritskom još uvek zadržalo Arya za plemiće) prvo do Arabije pa na istok preko Persije do istočnog Irana odakle je oko 2000 BC osvojio Indiju...

 

[Mrkalj]

Baba Babin Babinja Babja Balaban Banja Bastare Bastrice Bezani + Belgrad Belice Belje Belove Belovode Berzeste Bistric Biserka Bistrica Bistrice Blace Bobostice Bodin Bodriste Bordani Borici Borje Borova + Borovjani Bradosnica Bratomira Breska Bresnik Brezdan Brostani Budisa Bukmira Buzgara Valjana Valjusa Varvara Veles Veljcan Gora Vernica + Vila Vodica Vojnika Vrakule Vranista Vranista Vrepska Vulcani Gabrica Gajtani Glava Gline Golem Golemi + Golik Goloberdo Goljovisti Gorica Goroselj Gostiviste + Grabom Grabova Grabove Grabovice Grabovo + Gradac Gradec Gradiste Gradiskije Grazdani Grazdenik Graliste Gracen Gracani Grace Grozdani Gruda Darda Debrova Desmira Dobra Dobric Dobruna + Dragan Dragavoja Draginje Dragobija Dragostun Dragove Dragus Draci Dracove Drasovice Drenove Drovjani Drugana Dusmani + Dvoran Oeriste Zepa Zupiste Zagora Zagorican Zagradec Zagradi Zagradcani Zapat Zaradiste Zavaljan Zvezda Izviri Izgara Izgoralec Jablanit Janjan Jezerces Jerka Jubica Kamare Kamenica + Kamicani Kamnik + Kapica Karista Kasarna Kilaziste Klena Klenja Klisari Kovaci Kovaciste + Kovacica Korite Kosan Kosina Kosmaci Kosovec Kosovo Kosteni Kostenja Kostican Kotor Kosarista + Kosovica Krajni Krasta Krstac Kula Lepusa Leskova Leskoviku Leskovinu Lesnica Lestice Livadasi Livadi Likova Lisan Lovina Lozani Logavista Lopusa Lubinja Ljesani Ljivadi Ljubonje + Mali Mucalj Maliseva Malibarde Malina Manastirec Memlista Mecka Milica Miljusi Mirovna Mocani Moglice Mogra Monastir Negovani Nepravista + Niksi + Nikolara Nikolica Nikoijica Nivice Novasela Novoselo Oblika Osojna Padina Pastani Pepeli Pestani Plana + Plovista Podgora Podgorani Podgori Podgoria Podgradec Pogradec Pojata + Polidani Poposina Porobani Potkozani Prekal Prekali Prenista Prodani Radan Radicina Radimiste Radimniste Rajce + Rahovice Rastan Rec Redi Recit Rodokalj Rovica Sama Sanista Sebista Selca Selec Seleka Selence Selenica + Sepetova Slabinje Slatina + Slova Sopot Sovjani St. Javore Stani Staravec Stare Starov Starova + Stebilova Stranik Strelca Suha Suhodoli Sv. Dimitrije Ternova Topljana Torovica Trasani Trebinje Treske Tresova Trosan Tuceni Ulova Uljmiste Ustinje Cerkovica Cernjeva Catiste Cesme Coban + Siroka Sistevac Skola Stit Sticeni Sumica
(the + sign alongside the name of a place indicates that the same name appears on the maps two or more times for different places).

 

[Mrkalj]

Ovo je nešto što ne hsvatam pa molim za objašnjenje. Ima jedno mesto nadomak Zagreba čiji naziv u prevodu na srpski jezik znači "Šiptarevo".

Šćitarjevo je mjesto je u Zagrebačkoj županiji na području grada Velika Gorica, 20-ak kilometara od Zagreba. Nastalo je u blizini starorimske Andautonije.

Znamenitosti
Kako bi se život iz doba osnivanja Andautonije (1. st. pr. Kr.) približio sadašnjost, održavaju se Dani Andautonije, manifestacija slavljenja Andautonije, prilikom koje se održavaju degustacije vina, predstave. Stvari pronađene u iskopavanjima Andautonije čuvaju se u arheološkim muzejima u Zagrebu, Sisku, Turopolji te Velikoj Gorici.

Ova osnova predantičkog naziva Andaut neodoljivo podseća na A(r)n(d)aut.

Pitanje glasi šta kaže znanost za naziv mesta Ščitarjevo, koje je značenje?

 

[Mrkalj]

Ovo je nešto što ne hsvatam pa molim za objašnjenje. Ima jedno mesto nadomak Zagreba čiji naziv u prevodu na srpski jezik znači "Šiptarevo".

Šćitarjevo je mjesto je u Zagrebačkoj županiji na području grada Velika Gorica, 20-ak kilometara od Zagreba. Nastalo je u blizini starorimske Andautonije.

Znamenitosti

Kako bi se život iz doba osnivanja Andautonije (1. st. pr. Kr.) približio sadašnjost, održavaju se Dani Andautonije, manifestacija slavljenja Andautonije, prilikom koje se održavaju degustacije vina, predstave. Stvari pronađene u iskopavanjima Andautonije čuvaju se u arheološkim muzejima u Zagrebu, Sisku, Turopolji te Velikoj Gorici.

Ova osnova predantičkog naziva Andaut neodoljivo podseća na A(r)n(d)aut.

Pitanje glasi šta kaže znanost za naziv mesta Ščitarjevo, koje je značenje?

Prevod Šćitarjevo na srpski bio bi Štitarevo, nema veze sa albanskim Šćiptar, već sa kajkavskim nazivom za kovača štitova.

 

[Mrkalj]

Bogumil Hrabak: Širenje arbanaških stočara po ravnicama i slovenski ratari srednjovekovne Albanije, Cetinje, 1990.

Prvi turski popis arbanaške zemlje iz 1431-2. godine pruža pravo bogatstvo slovenskih toponima pa može poslužiti i za studije o istorijskom razvitku slovenskih jezika na Balkanu. Gotovo polovinu ukupno upisanih mesta ili mezri (ranije naseljenih pa uništenih ili raseljenih sela) pokazuju ili osnove ili sufikse reči slovenskih jezika. Kako su popisivači bili Turci ili ljudi sa Orijenta, oni su imena koja su čuli ili pogrešno upisali, ili su izvršili izvesnu transkripciju prema svom izgovoru. No, i pored toga, lako je toponime vratiti na izvorni oblik, ako je to potrebno. Azbučni niz tih toponima je sledeći:[109]


Aljine (1), Andrišovo (78), Ardosove (12); Babuni (5), Balice (93), Banja (100), Barven (= obojen) (87), Backo (Gorica) (85), Baštov (88), Baštanij (70), Belovode (4), Beluš (kod Koprišta) (48), Betove (5), Bečište (30), Bzode (88), Bileni (52), Bistrica (111), Blaten (94), Blace (45), Blašove (57), Boga (94), Bogdre (?) 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(34), Goranici (2), Gorice (2, 33), Grabjane (43, 44, 67), Gradice (84), Graždane (11), Gračani (72, 88), Grenane (82), Grbeli (69), Grjane (87), Grmadovič (31), Grceni (62), Gulice (35); Damezi (31), Dardane (99), Debrovište (33), Debrojani (3), Derajne (73), Divjani (95), Dibričeni (12), Dobranik (72), Dobratini (77), Dobrodice (66), Dobruše (82), Dol (108), Doli (82), Domcko (85), Donjan (112, 120), Doraklik (62), Dorbare (94), Dorezi (81), Dorize (78), Dragat (30), Dragoš (9), Dragušte (20), Dračivice (33), Dragovce (38), Dragove (5, 57), Dragovice (62), Drbac (51), Drenice (47), Drenovo (5), Drigani (63), Drni (92), Dulgajnove (?) (80), Dilcko (76), Dupine (40); Edrini (17), Erdenice (5, 33); Zabokin (65), Zabrđani (78), Zavene (20), Zagorje (21), Zagre (85), Zvenarice (64), Zdvjani (2), Zelujani (5), Zelje (24), Zlehove (28), Zinište (19), Zlini (100), Zlitar (87), Zranišave (?) (9), Zrnicko (83), Zrnusek (76), Zurdini (72); Žabjak (88), Žamžan (75), Žirezde (81), Žitolin (55), Žutove (59); Izmic (Vajuniti), Izmosle (98), Ilijani (79), Isnište (95), Istreli (29); Japove (77), Jelizane (5), Juvanište (1); Kavariledič (?) (4), Kajce (83), Kajce (85), Kakri (118), Kakodin (19), Kakosi (7), Kalanci (7), Kalačište (5), Kalati (36), Kalečište (56), Kamenice (3), Kamenicko (60), Kamaničeste (33), Kamačište (5), Kamiljani (100), Kamičeni (10), Kapani (4), Kardik (10), Karpene (88), Kasnik (99), Kaščište (30), Kemištenij (5), Kerebnice (3), Kirjane (62), Kirderjani (4), Kirasin (20), Kirahove (26), Kitlaz (Vajonetja) (28), Klazezni (2), Mali Klobučar (50), Kozane (92), Kozerni (67), Kokopovi (94), Kokotel (93), Kokrsni (24), Kokune (86), Kolkovce (78), Kolojne (104), Kolorci (1), Komnane (96), Konice (18, 92), Koprenco (80), Koprijane (97), Koprošte (37), Kora (92), Korasij (97), Kore (89), Korit (87), Koricane (62), Kornište (36), Kosrice (36, 41, 46), Kostani (24), Kostincko (83), Kotine (6), Krabove (98), Kraben (93), Krave (75), Kradic (75), Kraine (13), Krajnko (42), Kramince (62), Krapi (83), Krapicko (80), Krasnik (56), Kraštane (52), Krevolki (55), Kreskavec (71) Kreštani (72), Krivoluk (96), Krlice (77), Krpene (104), Krpice (86), Kruševič (2), Kruševo (57, 68), Krušove (84), Krčaji (99), Kudeni (28), Kuzi (99), Kukare (98), Kuke (4), Kumani (76, 79), Kurine (28), Kurjani (61), Kurova (67), Kuti (53), Kučkova (61), Kučova (78), V.+M. Labove (2 + 9, 27), Lavdani (14, 22, 66), Lagani (81), Lajane (51), Laini (62), Lašte (36, 52), Levanaj (87), Lenika (60), Lepeni (54), Letizde (10), Lešan (93), Lešane (20), Lešine (82), Lešove (77), V. + M. Lešne (32 + 32), Lešnice (15, 17 + Vajunitja: 20), Libnoše (101), Libohove (2, 5), Livezište (20), Livinje (2), Lika (97), Lipe (104), Lipkovec (99), Lipoš (6, 71), Liptovo (44), Litenij (92), Litonište (7, 22), Licojane (79), Lište (98), Lokove (28), Lopeš (32), Lubina (100), Lubonje (43, 51), Luvinje (4), Luk (86), Lušice (86); Madenik (42), Majane (67), Majeni (39), Malzene (48), Malne (82), Manice (55), Manjani ili Madenik (51), Markinošte (114), Midozde (12), Mizacko (82), Mirevijac (47), Mirsova (78), M. Modeze (39), Mogila (57), Moknar (120), Molkile (31), Molnište (55), Momčile (80), Monastirce (36, 60), Mrozovište (44), Mrčeni (Mazeni) (32), Mujdogorjane (31), Muštinike (87); Načejošte (59), Nivjane (Zagorje) (16, 25), Nivice (32), Nijani (100), Novanij (72, 73), Novo Selo (31,33,65), Novoslani (4), Nokve (17); Obranište (79), Odorice (55), Odricani (40, 50), Olseni (108), Oronište (100), Osnova (48), Oslizvizde (67), Osrice (48), Ostrog (53), Ostronaj (101), Otepane (60), Otove (23); Paveli (63, 66), Paljenke (86), Paljevo (87), Pankov (55), Papreni (98), Pastovce (32), Patize (107), Patolove (9), Pelnik (103), Pepule (99, Zagorje: 7), Popolič (2), Pesjak (23), Petan (32), Peterlič (?) (4), Petri (86, 107), Peštani (31, 32), Pizavište (2), Piluri (28), Pistravič (62), Pice (3), Piševa (62), Pištane (5), Plavovce (7, Vojunitja: 7), Plaplice (34), Pleši (103), Ploče (48), Ploš (31), Pogan (48), Podjadec (54), Pokronik (34,46), Polani (60), Polute (7), Poljani (31), Popovište (76), Poričane (100), Poročeli (100), M. Presani (37), Presijani (35), Prestove (44), Prostok (97), Prizde (100), Prilske (113), Priske (103), Prište (83), Proštani (101), Prsak (79), Punavje (36); Raviše (85), Ravište (87), Ravše (34), Radili (39), Radiše (78), Ralani (84), Ras (99), Rahove (4, 19, 48, 78), Rahovce (80), Rejkan (5), Restovice (72), Riba (110), Ribani (60), Ribek (70), Rijlek (83), Ripeš (32), Ričove (63), Rogov (79), Rogožina (87), Rojnik (56, 68), Rusati (28), Ruši (Vajunitja) (28, 30); Sadek (107), Sakule (5), Senice (72), M. Selište (35), Selce (4), Selčani (31,98), Seljani (26, 78), Senice (8), Setan (97), Setnice (80), Silice (25), Skreštane (98), Skarile (?) (85), Skonjan (104), Skorobatine (34), Skrcani (63), Skurane (85), Skurec (87), Slance (58), Smokina (35, 42, 45, 48, 50), Smoktin (50), Soboki (4, 26), Sovnik (98), Sojnik (80), Sopine (100), Sradište (20, 22), Sračane (34, 45), Starze (9), Stepani (19), Stojani (2), Storjane (36,43,44, 52), Stravani (83), Stravoskazi (3), Strakove (76), Strojine (46), Struman (57), Suznica (94), Suratsko (?) (20), Sutin (11 2, 116); Terapčište (60), Todori (85), Tojani (66, 71), Traši (99), Trbas (85), Trbuhe (22), Trgohove (78), Trenavice (14, 22), Trepljanište (98), Trnovo (76, 77), Trica (36), Turižde (112), Tusnica (26), Tušniki (49, 52); Uljani (1), Uljanik (2), Umance (50), Umjani (30), Uskorjaci (23), Uskorojde (42), Urtosolište (3); Fraštani (2, 3); Harlove (14), Haskove (2), Helm (87), Hlamerci (62), Hotište (4), Hotove (56), Hoštove (23), Hrvat (94, 5), Hrvatove (94), Humelice (2); Cepane (78), Crnovite (38, 47), Crkovice (3), Crnice (76), Crnogač (73), Crnoglave (72), Crnogorice (29); Čagovište (39), Čaprišište (21), Čarnik (97), Čepini (katunsko selo) (7), Čerbetovo (41), Čiste (98), Crtijak (39), Šepri (Zagorje) (9), Šičece (113), Šinak (109), Šitište (=Žitište, 112), Štegac (97), Šteparc (78), Štvrb (88).

Gornji spisak ne samo što donosi slovenske toponime u Albaniji 1431 -1432. godine, nego svedoči i o jezičkim osobinama u vreme nad su Sloveni dali mestima pomenuta imena. Pored samoglasnog "r", još se zadržao gerli ř (kao kod Zapadnih Slovena), što je turski pisar deskribovao sa "rz". Tvrdi poluglas se još nije sasvim izgubio. Na kraju reči "k" još nije dovoljno omekšalo i prešlo u "ć". Još se kod prideva čulo "ij", a pridevi (-n, -ne) su vrlo često služili za nazivanje mesta. Česti su nastavci za oznaku mesta, kao i danas, "šte", pridevsko "-cko", deminutivno "-ce", ponekad "vje", koje još nije prešlo u "vlje" (što je inače bliže arbanaškom izgovoru). Oblik istočne grane Južnih Slovena na "žde" još se čuo i kao "zde" ili je to tako tursko uho deskribovalo. Na kraju reči je "-e", tamo gde susedni Sloveni imaju "i" (ne=ni) ili "-o" odnosno "-a" (-ve = -vo, -va). Neki isti nazivi se sreću na više mesta, kao što se od iste osnove prave varijante. Nazivi mesta pokazuju da su Sloveni tada u Albaniji bili i stočari (možda i bisesilni, sa katunima), o čemu svedoči dobro poznat nastavak "-vci" (ovde "-vce") kao i množine od ličnog imena (Paveli, Petri, Stojani, Todori), imena zajedničkog pretka ili starešina.

Među retkim feudalcima hrišćanima ima u tom popisu i slovenskih (srpskih) imena. Najpoznatiji je bio Pavle Kurtić (5), koji je upravljao celom jednom oblašću (vilajetom) (86); njegov sin Mustafa, međutim, već je primio veru zavojevača (59). Sitni feudalci (timarnici) su bili: Mrkša (39), Ostoja Đurđev (57) i Pavle Matranić (60-1, 62).

Ne slažem se sa opaskom da se "grleno r još zadržalo". Grleno r kod Albanaca odlika je čistog albanskog orijentalizma.

 

[Mrkalj]

Još je tu Hrabak nešto pobrkao jer zap. Sloveni (Česi i Lužički Srbi) nemaju "gerli r" već je fonem ř alveolaran.

- - - - - - - - - -

Baba Babin Babinja Babja Balaban Banja Bastare Bastrice Bezani + Belgrad Belice Belje Belove Belovode Berzeste Bistric Biserka Bistrica Bistrice Blace Bobostice Bodin Bodriste Bordani Borici Borje Borova + Borovjani Bradosnica Bratomira Breska Bresnik Brezdan Brostani Budisa Bukmira Buzgara Valjana Valjusa Varvara Veles Veljcan Gora Vernica + Vila Vodica Vojnika Vrakule Vranista Vranista Vrepska Vulcani Gabrica Gajtani Glava Gline Golem Golemi + Golik Goloberdo Goljovisti Gorica Goroselj Gostiviste + Grabom Grabova Grabove Grabovice Grabovo + Gradac Gradec Gradiste Gradiskije Grazdani Grazdenik Graliste Gracen Gracani Grace Grozdani Gruda Darda Debrova Desmira Dobra Dobric Dobruna + Dragan Dragavoja Draginje Dragobija Dragostun Dragove Dragus Draci Dracove Drasovice Drenove Drovjani Drugana Dusmani + Dvoran Oeriste Zepa Zupiste Zagora Zagorican Zagradec Zagradi Zagradcani Zapat Zaradiste Zavaljan Zvezda Izviri Izgara Izgoralec Jablanit Janjan Jezerces Jerka Jubica Kamare Kamenica + Kamicani Kamnik + Kapica Karista Kasarna Kilaziste Klena Klenja Klisari Kovaci Kovaciste + Kovacica Korite Kosan Kosina Kosmaci Kosovec Kosovo Kosteni Kostenja Kostican Kotor Kosarista + Kosovica Krajni Krasta Krstac Kula Lepusa Leskova Leskoviku Leskovinu Lesnica Lestice Livadasi Livadi Likova Lisan Lovina Lozani Logavista Lopusa Lubinja Ljesani Ljivadi Ljubonje + Mali Mucalj Maliseva Malibarde Malina Manastirec Memlista Mecka Milica Miljusi Mirovna Mocani Moglice Mogra Monastir Negovani Nepravista + Niksi + Nikolara Nikolica Nikoijica Nivice Novasela Novoselo Oblika Osojna Padina Pastani Pepeli Pestani Plana + Plovista Podgora Podgorani Podgori Podgoria Podgradec Pogradec Pojata + Polidani Poposina Porobani Potkozani Prekal Prekali Prenista Prodani Radan Radicina Radimiste Radimniste Rajce + Rahovice Rastan Rec Redi Recit Rodokalj Rovica Sama Sanista Sebista Selca Selec Seleka Selence Selenica + Sepetova Slabinje Slatina + Slova Sopot Sovjani St. Javore Stani Staravec Stare Starov Starova + Stebilova Stranik Strelca Suha Suhodoli Sv. Dimitrije Ternova Topljana Torovica Trasani Trebinje Treske Tresova Trosan Tuceni Ulova Uljmiste Ustinje Cerkovica Cernjeva Catiste Cesme Coban + Siroka Sistevac Skola Stit Sticeni Sumica
(the + sign alongside the name of a place indicates that the same name appears on the maps two or more times for different places).

Spiskovi se samo lepe jedan na drugi i nisu konačni.

 

[Дундурије]

 

[Tandoori Masala]

Slovenski toponimi ne cine vecinu toponima Albanije, bilo to danas, kod Selischeva na toj gore mapi ili u navedenom turskom defteru kod Inalcika. Kretenski naslov ove Mrkaljeve teme treba obavezno promijeniti.

 

[Mrkalj]

Ne znam odakle tolika energija za širenje dezinformacija kod korisnika Tandoori; možda zato što se "iznenadio svojom Y haplogrupom".Da ne bi ponavljana laž postala istina, da vidimo šta kaže ova, doduše katolička, Albanka:

At first people in Albania thought it was a joke, but politicians in that country have proposed the creation of a government commission to "Albanize" all place names of Slavic origin...and there are many of those. A commentary


01/12/2009 - Marjola Rukaj

Since Kosovo's declaration of independence, Albanian politicians appear to have gained popularity by coloring their talk with patriotism in an attempt to increase ratings rendered vulnerable by the country's serious political and economic problems. Patriotism has become the lens through which issues like public works, economic initiatives, debates on history, and identity are viewed. Over the last few months, that rhetoric has led to the increasingly common suggestion that Albanian toponymy should be "de-Slavized."

Current president Bamir Topi first mentioned the idea during a routine visit to a village in the country's northeast. At first, it seemed like a simple gaffe made by a president who lacked better speech ideas for a minor event. But a few months later, Prime Minister Berisha also mentioned Slavic toponymy. Berisha, discussing the issue in one of his new government's first meetings, did not hesitate to take the idea further. "We have to create a commission to replace all the Slavic toponymy in the country with corresponding Albanian toponyms originating before the Slavic invasion," Berisha said.

At the same time Berisha mentioned the issue of Slavic toponyms, the Albanian government was discussing the need for mandatory Albanian names for all licensed private ventures and enterprises in the country. The Prime Minister suggested that a commission be created to go through the names and apply censorship as needed. In that sense, Berisha went even further with a proposal to "Albanize" all place names in the country.

The stance, while not new, comes unexpectedly and is difficult to understand. The widespread Slavic toponyms, found all over Albania's territory, have always been a concern for Albanian nationalist intellectuals. These Slavic place names undermine a thesis crucial to the legitamacy of the Albanian nation-state and the basis of the country's nationalism: the story of Illyrian-Albanian indigenousness.

What is more, the prime minister's statement derives from a common thesis found in Albanian classical nationalism according to which the abundance of Slavic toponyms across present-day Albania is a result of past invasions by neighboring states' and their repression of Albanian territory.

The valid view of the Albanian nationalist politicians and intellectuals is that the Slavic toponymy in Albanian lands was imposed by ethnic Slavic rulers who, at different times, dominated this part of the Balkans. This view assumes that Albanians were an indigenous people, continuously present without interruption, who were constant victims of waves of migration of other Balkan peoples. This view, in response to neighboring nationalisms, attempts to firmly exclude the presence of the Slavic population on Albanian territory.

In order to reconcile history with the existence of the present-day Albanian nation, this particular presentation of Albanian history depicts the Albanians as static and ethnically and culturally unchanged over time.

But the issue is very complex. Albanian territory is so crammed with Slavic place names that non-Slavic place names, such as those of Albano-phone, Greek, Turkish, and Italian origin, seem like a tiny minority.

Even Prime Minister Berisha's idea to form a commission to create Albanian place names seems like a huge and costly initiative, not to mention being out of order and ridiculous on account of its primitive eighteenth-century nationalism. But for the time being Greek place names in southern Albania, Turkish ones in other regions, and Latin and Italian ones along the coast do not seem to be a source of concern.

Albanians were indifferent to the proposal and did not debate it. The only retort came from some journalists who ironically suggested that the Prime Minister should start the place name de-Slavization process in his own village of birth, Viçidol. The Albanian bloggosphere greeted the news with excitement. Albanian bloggers consider the "Albanization" of the toponymy a necessary measure, pointing to policies enacted by other various newly-founded nation-states.

The practice of renaming places is not new in Albania. Enver Hoxha's national-communism made many attempts at de-Slavization, particularly in the southeast regions of the country. Even the family names of the Slav-speaking minority were Albanized, their typical endings replaced by more Albanian-sounding, "Illyrian" endings. Some Slavic family names were fully replaced by Albanian names. The mechanism at present does not seem very different from that of the Hoxha regime. National-communism interpreted the Albanian past according to its own criteria and moulded national identity.

The fact that the issue of Slavic place names has resurfaced, even today, contradicts the Albanian government's continuous international declarations that Albania wants good relations with its neighbors. It is also an indicator of the typical way in which Albanian nationalist rhetoric cultivates a sense of victimhood and paints Albania's neighbors as continuously creeping in on Albanian territory.

But the issue extends beyond Albanian territory. It is worse in the youngest Balkan state of Kosovo where the replacement of Slavic toponyms with Albanian ones - in the tradition of one of the oldest instruments of nation-building - has been carried out. Villages and regions were renamed and the name of the new republic was also an issue. The country's former leader, Ibrahim Rugova, had proposed renaming the country after an ancient Illyrian region: "Dardania."

Given the great problems facing Albanian political establishment and the relatively minor importance of toponymy, few take the Prime Minister's initiative seriously. Certainly the message Berisha's statements send to the media does nothing but exacerbate the cliché of Albanian nationalism.

 

[Tandoori Masala]

Ne znam odakle tolika energija za širenje dezinformacija kod korisnika Tandoori; možda zato što se "iznenadio svojom Y haplogrupom".Da ne bi ponavljana laž postala istina, da vidimo šta kaže ova, doduše katolička, Albanka:

At first people in Albania thought it was a joke, but politicians in that country have proposed the creation of a government commission to "Albanize" all place names of Slavic origin...and there are many of those. A commentary


01/12/2009 - Marjola Rukaj

Since Kosovo's declaration of independence, Albanian politicians appear to have gained popularity by coloring their talk with patriotism in an attempt to increase ratings rendered vulnerable by the country's serious political and economic problems. Patriotism has become the lens through which issues like public works, economic initiatives, debates on history, and identity are viewed. Over the last few months, that rhetoric has led to the increasingly common suggestion that Albanian toponymy should be "de-Slavized."

Current president Bamir Topi first mentioned the idea during a routine visit to a village in the country's northeast. At first, it seemed like a simple gaffe made by a president who lacked better speech ideas for a minor event. But a few months later, Prime Minister Berisha also mentioned Slavic toponymy. Berisha, discussing the issue in one of his new government's first meetings, did not hesitate to take the idea further. "We have to create a commission to replace all the Slavic toponymy in the country with corresponding Albanian toponyms originating before the Slavic invasion," Berisha said.

At the same time Berisha mentioned the issue of Slavic toponyms, the Albanian government was discussing the need for mandatory Albanian names for all licensed private ventures and enterprises in the country. The Prime Minister suggested that a commission be created to go through the names and apply censorship as needed. In that sense, Berisha went even further with a proposal to "Albanize" all place names in the country.

The stance, while not new, comes unexpectedly and is difficult to understand. The widespread Slavic toponyms, found all over Albania's territory, have always been a concern for Albanian nationalist intellectuals. These Slavic place names undermine a thesis crucial to the legitamacy of the Albanian nation-state and the basis of the country's nationalism: the story of Illyrian-Albanian indigenousness.

What is more, the prime minister's statement derives from a common thesis found in Albanian classical nationalism according to which the abundance of Slavic toponyms across present-day Albania is a result of past invasions by neighboring states' and their repression of Albanian territory.

The valid view of the Albanian nationalist politicians and intellectuals is that the Slavic toponymy in Albanian lands was imposed by ethnic Slavic rulers who, at different times, dominated this part of the Balkans. This view assumes that Albanians were an indigenous people, continuously present without interruption, who were constant victims of waves of migration of other Balkan peoples. This view, in response to neighboring nationalisms, attempts to firmly exclude the presence of the Slavic population on Albanian territory.

In order to reconcile history with the existence of the present-day Albanian nation, this particular presentation of Albanian history depicts the Albanians as static and ethnically and culturally unchanged over time.

But the issue is very complex. Albanian territory is so crammed with Slavic place names that non-Slavic place names, such as those of Albano-phone, Greek, Turkish, and Italian origin, seem like a tiny minority.

Even Prime Minister Berisha's idea to form a commission to create Albanian place names seems like a huge and costly initiative, not to mention being out of order and ridiculous on account of its primitive eighteenth-century nationalism. But for the time being Greek place names in southern Albania, Turkish ones in other regions, and Latin and Italian ones along the coast do not seem to be a source of concern.

Albanians were indifferent to the proposal and did not debate it. The only retort came from some journalists who ironically suggested that the Prime Minister should start the place name de-Slavization process in his own village of birth, Viçidol. The Albanian bloggosphere greeted the news with excitement. Albanian bloggers consider the "Albanization" of the toponymy a necessary measure, pointing to policies enacted by other various newly-founded nation-states.

The practice of renaming places is not new in Albania. Enver Hoxha's national-communism made many attempts at de-Slavization, particularly in the southeast regions of the country. Even the family names of the Slav-speaking minority were Albanized, their typical endings replaced by more Albanian-sounding, "Illyrian" endings. Some Slavic family names were fully replaced by Albanian names. The mechanism at present does not seem very different from that of the Hoxha regime. National-communism interpreted the Albanian past according to its own criteria and moulded national identity.

The fact that the issue of Slavic place names has resurfaced, even today, contradicts the Albanian government's continuous international declarations that Albania wants good relations with its neighbors. It is also an indicator of the typical way in which Albanian nationalist rhetoric cultivates a sense of victimhood and paints Albania's neighbors as continuously creeping in on Albanian territory.

But the issue extends beyond Albanian territory. It is worse in the youngest Balkan state of Kosovo where the replacement of Slavic toponyms with Albanian ones - in the tradition of one of the oldest instruments of nation-building - has been carried out. Villages and regions were renamed and the name of the new republic was also an issue. The country's former leader, Ibrahim Rugova, had proposed renaming the country after an ancient Illyrian region: "Dardania."

Given the great problems facing Albanian political establishment and the relatively minor importance of toponymy, few take the Prime Minister's initiative seriously. Certainly the message Berisha's statements send to the media does nothing but exacerbate the cliché of Albanian nationalism.

Evo, sta se desava kad dnevni politicar hoce da se bavi istorijom i naukom.

Onda mora da Selischev siri te dezinformacije:

Pogledajte prilog 409038

Kad se pazljivo pogleda ova (iz knjige, jasnije se vidi, ne internetska) mapa, jug jeste nacickan slovenskim toponimima (crne tacke), ali najvise "stranim". Sto se tice srednjeg i sjevernog dijela zemlje, mnogo manje slovenskih toponima ima dok strani su zastupljeni u ogromnoj vecini. To se sasvim jasno vidi.

Na to je davno ukazao i Sima Cirkovic, nedostatak slovenskih toponima na tzv. "ilirskim" teritorijama:

"Sudeci po onome sto se do sada utvrdilo u literaturi, odsustvo znatnije toponomastike u severnim delovima Albanije, u zaledju Ljesa, doline reke Mat, sirem podrucju Kroje, treba pripisati okolnosti da se Sloveni u te predele nisu ni naseljavali. Najstariji Arbanon je, bas kao i pojas obalskih naselja, ostao izvan slovenskog domasaja. "

Ista stvar u defteru kod Inalcika (cak i Hrabak pise povise "gotovo polovina", a to nije vecina), sjeverna polovina ne obiluje slovenskim toponimima, kao juzna, samo sto defter najsjevernije obuhvaca oblast do Kroje, sto znaci da je pokriveno ovo podrucje (trecina danasnje Albanije sasjecena):

Jos nesto zanimljivo, toponimi juzne Albanije, istocno-juznoslovenski (makedonski i bugarski, samo budala ih moze nazvati "srpskim"), nisu arhaicni kao grcki.

Jordan Zaimov, 1970:

"Bugarska toponimija Albanije nije tako arhaicna, kao npr. u Grckoj, posebno u juznim dijelovima."

Nakon svega, zaboravih dodati ovaj biser:

Ako može neko neznalici da objasni otkud toliki srpski toponimi vaskolikim podnebljem ilirske prapostojbine?