Порекло Македонаца


Христо Матов = "Дримколов" , најчувенији памфлетиста бугарског шовинизма?
Грујев га је иницирао у ВМРО.

Лично мислим да , тражећи одговоре на задату тему "Македонија-српска земља?", не треба претеривати са цитатима да се ради о "бугарској земљи".
Савремени Македонци и њихови преци стално се боре са том пропагандом. И ту су врло изричити.

Што се тиче цитираног ММилојевића, да ли је потребно копирати сада и овде све што је он мислио и писао о Бугарима и у самој Кнежевини створеној 1878.године, и онима у Азији ид..итд.. Мене мрзи, заиста.

Успут, да ли је неко успео да нађе пдф Ивана Иванића : Маћедонија и Маћедонци?
 
Poslednja izmena:
1903, The Farmer and Mechanic


The Decatur Herald in 1904


1881


--> Greek document from 1904 mentions the Macedonian language. It comes to us from Pavlos Melas, no less, the famous national Greek hero from the early 20th Century. In one of many letters that he wrote to his wife Natalia, which she published in whole in 1964 in Athens under the title “Pavlos Melas”, he writes:

“Pirzsas was interpreting emotionally, loudly and passionately, while Kotas was speaking in the Macedonian language. The teacher asked the children to sing something. We couldn’t tell whether the language was Macedonian or Greek. All the students know how to read and write (Greek), however they barely know how to speak it. I have learned a few Macedonian words which I say to the women and mothers, which brings them great satisfaction.”
 
Poslednja izmena:
Maćedonci su uvek bili na vetrometini :

spomenik.JPG
 
https://www.facebook.com/jeromonahpetar.dragojlovic/posts/1827868903910773

Jeromonah Petar Dragojlovic

Е па није баш тако браћо Грци. Уз сво поштовање, неће бити да је Македонија само Грчка. Егејска Македониа је Грчка, јер у њој данас углавном живе Грци и припада грчкој држави. Вардарска Македонија је македонска и та се држава зове Република Македонија. Нико нема право да узима име и језик једном народу и једној држави. У Републици Македонији 80 процената становника су Македонци, и они нису ни Грци, ни Бугари ни Срби. У њој већински живи македонски народ. Као што у Пиринској Македонији већински живе Бугари. Дакле, Македонија је територија три државе и много народа који живе у те три државе, али углавном Грка, Македонаца и Бугара. Мени као Србину и православном игуману који живи у Србији, Македонци су драг и посебан народ, који имају своју државу, своје име, своју нацију, свој језик, своју историју. Такође, волим и ценим и Грке и Бугаре, али не подржавам ничији елитизам, било код појединаца у сваком народу, било неких већих група сваког народа. Ни српски, ни бугарски, ни грчки ни македонски. А парола - Македонија је Грчка - је, свиђало се то некоме или не, елитистичка. Грци немају право да својатају целу Македонију, нити јединствени екслузивитет за њено име. А онај ко и мало зна историју, зна да су чак и антички Македонци, говорили потпуно различитим матерњим језиком од Грка, тј. били су другачији народ од Грка. Тако да Грци не могу да својатају ни античке Македонце а не могу ни данашње Македонце и данашњу Републику Македонију.
 
Предлажем да се тема преименује у 'Идентитет македонских Словена' и споји с другим темама које се баве истом тематиком.

: )

"Our people were only ‘Macedonian Christians,’ and then, when Greek propaganda developed they became ‘Macedonian Christian Slavs’."
- Dimitar Rizov, 1912

"In the elementary schools, the young children who speak their own language are beaten every day. Particularly here in Voden, the henchman and fascist Georgiadis beats the children if they speak their Macedonian tongue."
- Rizospastis Journal, June 6, 1934
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ovi neki pisu o nekakvim tzv. Makedoncima,prvo mora da se resi kako se taj narod tamo zove da bi se pisalo o njegovoj genezi,zasada je to bezimeni narod,jer neznamo kako ce se zvati dali ce biti Gornji,Srednji,Severni,Zapadni,Juzni i dr i dr,prema imenu ce mo odrediti kako se taj narod zove,jos neznamo ni ime jezika kojim Govore pa da li je Gornji,Severni,Juzni,Zapadni,Donji i dr i dr kada to sve saznamo ova ce rasprava imati smisla..
 
Три речи. А све почињају са кр -- крв, крст, краљ. :p

По многим овдашњим учесницима, Македонци не могу бити нација јер нису имали краља. :p

Доносиоци влашко-румунског језика у модерну Румунију су били су изворни Македонци. Они су дошли у Румунију крајем средњег века са подручја старе Македоније (јужна Албанија, Епир, Тесалија, Егејска Макердонија, и део FYROM-a).
 
Доносиоци влашко-румунског језика у модерну Румунију су били су изворни Македонци. Они су дошли у Румунију крајем средњег века са подручја старе Македоније (јужна Албанија, Епир, Тесалија, Егејска Макердонија, и део FYROM-a).

Ма какви.
 
Sta je nekada bila makedonija dzaba je pricati. Odavno je to fekalija i nas dusmanin sto pokazuje i ubistvo aleksandra u marselju gde je gov.no vmrovsko u kombinaciji s pavelicevim pokretom izvrsio atentat. I danas govn.a vmrovska pljuju po srbiji a zagrlise siptare i snjima vladu napravise.
Mi smo ih prvi nazvali imenoma makedonija i ako to nije bas prijalo grcima, a oni su priznaki kosovo a grci nisu!!! Oni su glasali i za prijem kosova u unesko a grci nisu!!!

Stoga?
Mi smo glupi majmuni! Ko ebe vmrovsku bagru. Nek ih progutsju siptari i grci ebe nam se!!!


Manite se prica o prodlosti gledajte da je to vmrovska bagra...
 
A limited degree of colonization by Serbs seems to have taken place in the southern part of eastern Macedonia. Lemerle expresses the opinion that the Serbian armies had a firm grip on the region of Philippi, and that even throughout the Roman parts there had been some colonization by 'Triballians' here and there.
 
1) Transactions of the Royal Society of Literature of the United Kingdom Volume 5 - Page 94


2) a history of greece from its conquest by the romans to the present time, by george finlay

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ea...nstantine opos macedonian sclavonians&f=false

Page 76:

- The Macedonian legion, recruited in great part from the Sclavonian population of that province, was under the orders of Antiochos.

- The contingent of Turkish troops, from a colony settled near Achrida, to overawe the Sclavonian population, and keep open the communication with the Adriatic by the Via Egnatia, was led by Tatikios, an active and able soldier, son of a Saracen who had been taken prisoner by John Comnenus, the emperor's father.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Long read on the Macedonian name issue

Cvetin Chilimanov

URL:
https://medium.com/@Cvetin/long-read-on-the-macedonian-name-issue-4e5824917891

Everybody is so hung up over the Alexander the Great monument in downtown Skopje, but in my opinion two other monuments at the same square explain the argument of the Macedonian name better. Visitors there can see two similar, marble throned statues of Byzantine Emperor Iustinian and King Samuil. Justinian, the law giver and partial restorer of the Roman Empire, is honored in Macedonia given that he was born in the ancient city of Taurisium (now a hamlet called Taor in a gorge on the Vardar river just south of Skopje). Samuil, (who is also claimed by Bulgaria, but I won’t be going into that this time, or ever) was a warrior king who ruled a medieval kingdom from the Macedonian lakeside city of Ohrid at the turn of the first and second millenium and is best known for his bloody wars with Byzantium, including the battle on Mt. Belasica (1014). After the battle, the victorius Byzantine emperor Basil II perpetrated an act of such cruelty that he shocked even the medieval world, when he blinded the 15.000 captured Macedonian soldiers, leaving only one of a hundred with one eye, so he could lead the rest of the soldiers home.

So, clearly Macedonians and Byzantines were not friends. Samuil ruled a Slavic speaking kingdom built on the ruins of Byzantium. Why then are Samuil and Justinian honored in similar style in the capital of modern day Macedonia? The answer is that (warning to Greek visitors — if you read further I will not be held liable for your aneurism) modern day Macedonians are not exclusively Slavic, or exclusively descendent from the ancient Macedonian stock, but are a mix of the two (and of a bunch of other, possibly lesser elements).

The essence of the name issue on the Greek side is that, because the Macedonians clearly speak a Slavic language, and the Slavs are believed to have moved in the Balkans in the 5th, 6th century AD (practically yesterday in Balkan terms!) then they have no connection to the glorious Classical period. No such stark divide exists on this side of the border. Yes, we speak a Slavic language. And roughly a third of our names are Slavic, a third are Biblical, but a solid third are from the Classical period. We wouldn’t think twice about naming a child Dimitar or Sofia or Katerina, just as we would name it a Slavic Goran or Vladimir or a Biblical Ana or Petar. Actually, I would venture that the concentration of Alexanders (and especially Philips) is much higher in the Republic of Macedonia than in Greece, where the two warrior kings ostensibly belong). If you observe the broader culture, the similarities between Macedonians and Greeks are startling. Chain smoking men who get homicidal behind the wheel, fast talking women who will give you a piece of their minds (and then some), Macedonian and Greek weddings, wedding dances and drinks are copy/pasted affairs, our approach to love, life, politics, economics, corruption and penchant for conspiracy theories clearly show that we belong to a same culture, despite the different languages. The same, I would say, applies to the Turks, Serbs, Bulgarians and Albanians — if anything, the hatreds between our peoples are not based on some major differences such as existed between the whites and blacks in the American South, but on the narcissism of small differences.

Nikola Mladenov, a late, great conservative Macedonian journalist, used to explain the story of the Slavic conquest thusly (I quote from memory) “Ok, let’s say that the Slavs came in the 6th century AD and killed all the real Macedonian men. Surely, I mean SURELY they didn’t kill all the women! *wink wink*”. Of course that when the Slavs came they didn’t possess the technology necessary for mass extermination of the conquered peoples — they had no gas chambers or machine guns. They could expel some, they could kill, rape, enslave others, but the carricatural portrayal that exists in the Greek consciousness, that the Byzantine lands that were taken by Slavic tribes went through a clean sweep and an entirely new civilization was built from scratch is hogwash. Slavs settled in towns and villages, farmed the land, lived among remaining citizens from the Byzantine Empire, adopted their religion, gave them their language, learnt from them how to build churches and waterworks, taught them how to free their slaves and advance from slavery to feudalism…. As the shrines of Zeus were turned into shrines of St. Elijah, so the Pagan Slavic Gods and Godesses were transformed into Christian saints and the old customs were given a new, monotheical robe. In a word, we are an omelette which was scrambled and rescrambled many times through the millenia, with the Persian, Celtic, Roman, Hun invasions, the Gothic, Kuman, Avar inroads, the Turkish occupation, the advance of Christianity, the attempts to reform it, then shield it from the Muslim overlords, and yet, the name of the country remained — Macedonia. The omelette can’t be unscrabled now in a purely Slavic yolk and a purely ancient Macedonian egg white. This is not an uncommon situation. A friend of mine from the States, who originated from the deepest, darkest Peru (h/t Paddington bear) spoke Spanish at home, with his family, but one look at his facial features would tell you that he is not a descendent from Spanish colonists, but originates from the Incan Empire. Macedonians, Greeks, Turks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians.. do not have the distinct facial features or color of skin that would help us differentiate one from the other, but as the example of the remnants of the Spanish Empire shows us, it is possible for the conquered native people to fully adopt the language of numerically quite inferior invaders. If you visit Rome, you will see men dressed as gladiators or legionaries in front of the Coloseum, but they will not speak Latin. They will speak a Romanized version of the language of the Germanic invaders who overran Rome. Does it mean that the people living in Rome today have no right to the heritage of the Classical Rome, or that the Arabic speaking camel renters in Cairo do not have the right to show you the ruins of Ozymandias? If we extend the Greek logic in the Macedonian name issue, that we mere Slavic speakers have no right to show off the rich artifacts that we unearth almost daily, it is precisely what it means.

Observe, for a moment, the Greek position in the name issue. If I understand it correctly, uniquely in all of history, modern Greeks are the unspoilt, unmixed descendents of the ingenious race of Pericles and Achilles. The centuries of Roman or Turkish occupation just deflected off them, with no in-breeding. Sure, they threw away their old Gods for Christianity, and can barely recognize the ancient Greek language, but they are pure-blooded members of the Greek nation which recognizes no ethnic or religious minorities (an unsustainable proposition given their deathbed demographics and open borders policy toward the Middle East). In reality, in Classical times the Greek nation did not exist — it was a patchwork of warring city states, whose conflicts, including with the Kingdom of Macedon, helped write some of the glorious pages of peoplekinds (thanks Justin) literature. They had a common culture, and Macedon clearly belonged to it then, just as today, as I see it, Macedonia, Greece and the rest of the Balkans also share a common culture. Normal people would be glad to share a common culture with a linguistically different nation. In fact, Greece itself, or rather Byzantium, had a pro-active approach when it helped prepare the mission of St. Cyril and Methodius, to translate the Bible into the Church Slavonic and to eventually bring Christianity all the way to Vladivostok. That is how a mature and culturally confident country behaves — it sees the neighboring nations as an opportunity, as people you can turn into your own corner. Modern Greece hysterically insists at NATO and EU summits that tiny and pooir Macedonia has designs on Greek territory!? It’s pityful and pathetic, a miserable excuse for a regional power.

And, seriously, if the Greeks are the pure-blooded descendents of Achilles, where are their equivalent accomplishments today? Where are the genius Greek writers and musicians? Where are their thousand ship fleets being launched to subdue a rebellious city somewhere? Where is their economic empire? The only thing that makes the Greeks notable today is that their welfare state collapsed before the other similar European welfare states and they compete with outrank Japan in their debt to GDP ratio. Otherwise, it’s a small to mid sized chronically corrupt and disfunctional Mediterranean state, which managed to win a European football cup once.

VUKOJEBINA NATION STATES


The modern national identity of the Greeks, Macedonians, Serbians, Bulgarians.. is not derived from the Classical period.
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Попис становништва пре првог балканског рата на територијама између осталих на којима је данашња република Македонија.
http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html
KaartGodsdBalkan.jpg



Vilajet Kossowo:
418.000 Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
9.000 Mahomedaansche Turken
14.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
250.000 Christene Bulgaren
113.000 Orthodoxe Serviërs
900 Orthodoxe Wallachen
200 Orthodoxe Grieken
22.000 Gemengde

Vilajet Monastir:
219.000 Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
11.500 Mahomedaansche Turken
24.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
331.000 Christene Bulgaren
62.000 Orthodoxe Grieken
65.000 Orthodoxe Wallachen
35.000 Gemengde

Vilajet Saloniki:
333.500 Mahomedaansche Turken
180.000 Orthodoxe Wallachen
99.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
22.000 Mahomedaansche Zigeuners
44.600 Christen Bulgaren
168.000 Orthodoxe Grieken
25.000 Orthodoxe Wallachen
55.000 Joden
15.000 Gemengde
 
Poslednja izmena:
Нису. Јер се Србима (више) не желе звати.

Колико ми је познато тамо македонске националне свести пре 200 година није ни било.

У Александровој КЈ македонски је био јужни српски дијалект. А не посебан језик.

tako je
 
Попис становништва пре првог балканског рата на територијама између осталих на којима је данашња република Македонија.
http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html
KaartGodsdBalkan.jpg



Vilajet Kossowo:
418.000 Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
9.000 Mahomedaansche Turken
14.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
250.000 Christene Bulgaren
113.000 Orthodoxe Serviërs
900 Orthodoxe Wallachen
200 Orthodoxe Grieken
22.000 Gemengde

Vilajet Monastir:
219.000 Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
11.500 Mahomedaansche Turken
24.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
331.000 Christene Bulgaren
62.000 Orthodoxe Grieken
65.000 Orthodoxe Wallachen
35.000 Gemengde

Vilajet Saloniki:
333.500 Mahomedaansche Turken
180.000 Orthodoxe Wallachen
99.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
22.000 Mahomedaansche Zigeuners
44.600 Christen Bulgaren
168.000 Orthodoxe Grieken
25.000 Orthodoxe Wallachen
55.000 Joden
15.000 Gemengde

Када је овај попис урађен? Први попис по савременим мерилима у Османском царству учињен је 1881. године, а тада Срби нису признати као икакав ентитет, будући да нису имали свој милет. Тако Србима у нуфус-тескери никако није могло стојати да су Срби. Зато је влада Светомира Николајевића 1894. отворила тзв. Нуфуско питање, које је било један од главних проблема српско-османских односа до 1910. Нови попис је учињен 1905. и у њему је уношена националност, с тиме што су пописани могли само да се сврстају у неку од унапред понуђених категорија, које нису биле идентичне за пописане ни у оквиру једног санџака. Тако су у Новом Пазару православни Срби могли бити уписани само као Православни Бошњаци, док су у остатку Приштинског санџака били уписани само као Православци. У Тетовској и Гостиварској кази су православни Срби уписивани као Српски Патријаршисти, а у остатку Призренског санџака православни Срби су уписивани као Православни Албанци. На крају је османска влада комплетно одустала од таквог принципа и попис 1905. је објављен само по милетима. После тога није било пописа.
 
The Macedonian -- 2013 ‧ Documentary.

Polish documentary dedicated to refugee children from Greek Macedonia. The film was shot by director Petro Aleksowski, the son of the main character in the film "Macedonian". It was funded by the Polish Film Institute. The documentary takes place in Greece.

It was made on the occasion of the 65th anniversary of the arrival of refugee children in the countries of Eastern Europe. It was premiered on May 31, 2014 at the Krakow Film Festival.

 
Славене, да ли теби изгледа реално да Бугарска буде савезник Србији против сила које су у то време већ биле зачетак међународне заједнице?

Evo, da pojasnimo, jer se na ovoj temi diskutovalo o Ugovoru o prijateljstvu i o Vojnoj konvenciji između Bugarske i Srbije. Potpisana su tri sporazuma između generalštaba Srbije i Bugarske, u Varni; prva dva 1. i treći 2. jula 1912. godine. Treći sporazum ticao se usaglašavanja vojnih dejstava protiv zajedničkog neprijatelja, Turaka, a prethodna dva su bili politički preduslov za njegovo potpisivanje. Evo prikaza sporazuma u slučaju rata protiv Austrougarske i Turske:

IMG_20180313_173518.jpg

IMG_20180313_173551.jpg

IMG_20180313_173646.jpg


- - - - - - - - - -

Sad i ugovor generalštaba o ratovanju protiv Turaka:

IMG_20180313_173700.jpg

IMG_20180313_173714.jpg
 
Poslednja izmena:
Da li su Makedonci Srbi ???

Sta kaze nauka ???

Kada je to postojala makedonska nacija ?

Kakva je bila nacionalna svest u vardarskoj makedoniji pre 100 i pre 200 godina na primer ???

Uh...Znaš kako pre 200godina je veliko pitanje ko je živeo u zapadnoj Bugarskoj, ima dosta podataka koji impliciraju dosta drugačiju strukturu stanovništva.
Makedonci su gotovo izvesno u jendom periodu svog postojanja imali spsku nacionalnu(ili narodnu) svest. Što se tiče jezika on je slovenski to znamo, znamo i da je biran da bude što dalje spskom, ali i bugarskom.
Obzirom da im je jezik slovenski oni ne bi mogli biti potomci pred slovenske kulture na ovim prostorima, niti njeni naslednici, stoga je popriličan apsurd ovo što imamo danas.U drugu ruku tu ulazimo na teren gde ono koriste istoriju koju predstavljaju kao zvaničnu spram koje je recimo Deretić mala maca ( ne bih ulazio da li je on u pravu ili nije, nema baš ništa protiv čoveka navodim primer). Dakle, od svih ovih "liberala" što nama palamude i ovuda po forumu, zašto se niko nije zapitao ,"pa ljudi Makedonci se koriste mitom, a tek Albanci šta rade "?
Da ne idem daleko od teme, ima tamo Cincara, ima Vlaha ima i Srba...Obzirom da ni jedna od ove dve grupe nije drzavotvorna , jedino su Srbi kao takav faktor bili u mogucnosti da apsorbuju makedonce, medjutim nisu.
 

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