Генетичка генеалогија

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Ahil71:
Da dodam da u svim etničkim promanama na ovom prostoru, a bilo ih je dosta, dominant ulogu igra starosedelačko stanovništvo.

Antropološki dominira mediteranski rasni tip sa ostatcima kromanjonskog.
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Ahile, izadji na ulicu pa malo posmatraj ljude. Ako se malo bolje udubis videces da su cisti rasni tipovi kod nas retki i da se radi o mesanom fenotipu svega i svacega. Vise se nego jasno primeti da je prisustvo (da ga tako nazovem) centralnoevropskog/slovenskog fenotipa mnogo vece od onoga sto ti zagovaras. Posebno se to lepo moze primetiti na zenama. Ako znamo da smo imali dolazak mediteranskog rasnog tipa jos pre nekih 7-8000 godina, onda nije ni cudo sto je on tu ostao i do dana danasnjeg. Dolaskom Slovena on se mesa sa "slovenskim" fenotipom i danas je to nesto sto je karakteristicno ne samo za Srbe, vec i za Bugare, Makedonce, Hrvate deo Grka, Rumune.

Koji bi ti fenotip ocekivao tamo gde zivi dominantno mediteranski i kromanjonski rasni tip? Pigmejski ne svakako.

Zanimljivo je i to da najstarija paleolitska nalazista vezana za kromanjonce gravitiraju za zapad Evrope i severozapad Afrike.

CroMag.gif
 
Kyrios:
Када се став овако добро аргументује онда не може да се не прихвати!
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Evo da mu ja to jos malo potvrdim
Haplogroup U3 falls into two distinct subclades: U3a’c and U3b. Coalescence age for U3a is estimated as 18,000 to 26,000-years-ago while the coalescence age for U3b is estimated as 18,000 to 24,000-years-ago. U3a is found in Europe, the Near East, the Caucasus and northern Africa. The almost-entirely European subclade, U3a1, dated at 4000 to 7000-years-ago, suggests a relatively recent (late Holocene or later) expansion of these lineages in Europe. There is a minor U3c subclade (derived from U3a), represented by a single Azeri mtDNA from the Caucasus. U3b is widespread across the Middle East and the Caucasus, and it is found especially in Iran, Iraq and Yemen, with a minor European subclade, U3b1b, dated at 2000 to 3000-years-ago. Haplogroup U3 is defined by the HVR1 transition A16343G. It is found at low levels throughout Europe (about 1% of the population), the Near East (about 2.5% of the population), and Central Asia (about 1% of the population).
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posebno ovaj deo:

U3 is present in the Svan population from the Svaneti region (about 4.2% of the population) and among Lithuanian Romani, Polish Romani, and Spanish Romani populations (36-56%) consistent with a common migration route from India then out-of-the Balkans for the Lithuanian, Polish, and Spanish Roma.
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Tek sada vidim da ona Ahilova prica o Andra Pradeshu kao srpskoj prapostojbini nije bila bez veze
:rotf:
 
Pa prethodno si napisao Ub3, sto se jedino moglo desifrovati kao U3b :D

sa FTDNA sajta:

Haplogroup U5b3
(Last updated April 2013)
Haplogroup U5b3 is relatively rare compared to its sister clades U5b1 and U5b2. U5b3 has been estimated by Behar et al. to be about 11,000 years old. We have 73 FMS test results for U5b3, however most of these are from research studies specifically designing to study the population of Sardinia. We have a much smaller number of U5b3 test results in the U5 project. Although U5b3 is quite rare, it also has great diversity. We have 7 named subclades of U5b3 (U5b3a to U5b3f, but several of these have only 2 or 3 members), and we also have nine U5b3* lineages that are each represented by a single individual. They have ancestry in Spain, France, Germany, northern Italy, Croatia, Bosnia and Czech. One of the key research papers on U5b3 is by Pala et al., “Mitochondrial haplogroup U5b3: a distant echo of the epipaleolithic in Italy and the legacy of the early Sardinians”, and they conclude that "the most likely homeland for U5b3 was the Italian Peninsula". The current distribution of U5b3* test results could be consistent with an origin in northern Italy or central Europe and a relatively late arrival in Sardinia, perhaps arriving with bronze-age metal workers.
U3b3a has 28 samples and an age estimate of about 10,000 years. U5b3a1a has an age estimate of 2500 years and has 17 samples (all from research studies) with 17 from the island of Sardinia, 1 from Italy and one unspecified. There are 2 samples of U5b3a1b also from research studies, one of which was from France. U5b3a2 has 9 samples and is more widely distributed and with an older age estimate of about 6500 years. It has been found in central Italy, France, Greece, Estonia, England and Morocco. Five of these test results are also from the Pala et al. research study.
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Iz cega si ti zakljucio da je haplogrupa vezana za I2a i da je potekla sa ovih prostora? Tim pre sto se vidi da je U5b3* rasprostranjena juznim delom Evrope od Pirineja do Apenina? Nigde ni jedne jedine naznake da bi mogla biti povezana sa I2a, tim pre sa I1. Jos lepo kazu, najverovatnije je u pitanju danasnja Italija.

U5b3_haplogroup.png
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Poslednja izmena:
Kor:
Pa prethodno si napisao Ub3, sto se jedino moglo desifrovati kao U3b :D

sa FTDNA sajta:

Haplogroup U5b3
(Last updated April 2013)


Iz cega si ti zakljucio da je haplogrupa vezana za I2a i da je potekla sa ovih prostora? Tim pre sto se vidi da je U5b3* rasprostranjena juznim delom Evrope od Pirineja do Apenina? Nigde ni jedne jedine naznake da bi mogla biti povezana sa I2a, tim pre sa I1. Jos lepo kazu, najverovatnije je u pitanju danasnja Italija.

U5b3_haplogroup.png
[/S
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Imamo više podgrupa U5b3, na širem prostoru.
Kod nas je pomešan sa drugim U5b HG.
Apenini i Balkan su u susedstvu.

Može biti i u pratnji I1 ali imamo mali procenat U5a HG u zapadnoj Srbiji.

Abstract
There are extensive data indicating that some glacial refuge zones of southern Europe (Franco-Cantabria, Balkans, and Ukraine) were major genetic sources for the human recolonization of the continent at the beginning of the Holocene. Intriguingly, there is no genetic evidence that the refuge area located in the Italian Peninsula contributed to this process. Here we show, through phylogeographic analyses of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation performed at the highest level of molecular resolution (52 entire mitochondrial genomes), that the most likely homeland for U5b3-a haplogroup present at a very low frequency across Europe-was the Italian Peninsula. In contrast to mtDNA haplogroups that expanded from other refugia, the Holocene expansion of haplogroup U5b3 toward the North was restricted by the Alps and occurred only along the Mediterranean coasts, mainly toward nearby Provence (southern France). From there, approximately 7,000-9,000 years ago, a subclade of this haplogroup moved to Sardinia, possibly as a result of the obsidian trade that linked the two regions, leaving a distinctive signature in the modern people of the island. This scenario strikingly matches the age, distribution, and postulated geographic source of a Sardinian Y chromosome haplogroup (I2a2-M26), a paradigmatic case in the European context of a founder event marking both female and male lineages.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19500771
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2694970/figure/fig3/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2694970/figure/fig2/
 
Poslednja izmena:
па не може то тако Ахиле. Лепо сам ти презентовао садржај који објашњава да је U5b3 пореклом са апенинског уточишта и да нема никакву генетску везу са нашим I2a, али то теби очигледно много не значи. Не постоји логичка нит која би довела у везу ову мтДНК хаплогрупу са твојом фиксидејом да је она везана за миграције I2a и како си рекао,евентуално I1. Она је очигледно повезана са I2a M26 која код нас практично одсуствује.
 
Kor:
па не може то тако Ахиле. Лепо сам ти презентовао садржај који објашњава да је U5b3 пореклом са апенинског уточишта и да нема никакву генетску везу са нашим I2a, али то теби очигледно много не значи. Не постоји логичка нит која би довела у везу ову мтДНК хаплогрупу са твојом фиксидејом да је она везана за миграције I2a и како си рекао,евентуално I1. Она је очигледно повезана са I2a M26 која код нас практично одсуствује.
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I kada su se ti I2a M26 naselili u zapadnu Srbiju i Crnu Goru?
A kada u Mesopotamiju?

Ili kako već objašnjavaš kocentraciju U5b HG u zapadnoj Srbiji.

PS
To što danas imamo usamljen I2a1b u srpskoj populaciji, ne znači da, u prošlosti nije bilo i drugih srodnih grana, koje su se u međuvremenu ugasile.
 
Poslednja izmena:
"U5b haplotypes are thus present in 9 out of 16 Mesolithic
sites with genetic information available (56.3%), comprising
12 of the 27 individuals so far analyzed (44.4%). This surprisingly
widespread presence of U5b includes present day
Lithuania (Donkalnis and Kretuonas sites), Poland (Dudka
site), Germany (Hohlenstein-Stadel and Falkensteiner Ho¨ hle
sites), likely Luxembourg (Reuland-Loschbour site) and
England (Gough’s Cave), and Spain (Figure 4).
It is generally accepted that the most ancient European
mitochondrial haplogroup, U5, arose in Europe [6]. The
coalescence time estimate from molecular data for the U5 is
w25–30 thousand years (ky) and for its subhaplogroups
U5a and U5b w16–20 and w20–24 ky, respectively [35]. The
time estimate for U5b1c is 12.8 ky [35]. U5 haplotypes
are also found in Neolithic and present day populations,
although their frequency is moderated as compared to the
Mesolithic, ranging from about 1% in some places along
the Mediterranean up to 5%–8% in continental Europe [14].
The exceptions to this trend are the Saami populations, in
northern Scandinavia, where haplogroup U5 (and mainly
subhaplogroup U5b) ranges from 26.5% to 56.8%, depending
on the population [36].
,,,
Ancient genomics from Neolithic individuals from Scandinavia
[18] supports that the spread of agriculture into Europe
involved the expansion of populations from the Middle East
that eventually assimilated the contemporaneous huntergatherers.
Modern European populations seem to derive
essentially from those Neolithic migrants [18]. Until now,
however, the genetic affinities of the Mesolithic populations
to the modern Europeans were largely unknown. Our partial
La Bran˜ a 1 and 2 genomic data show that modern Iberian populations
are not descendants of the local hunter-gatherers
inhabiting the same region prior to the arrival of farmers and
thus support a genetic shift in that region between the Mesolithic
and modern populations."
http://biologiaevolutiva.org/jbertr...014/11/JB2012-312-Sanchez-Quinto-CurrBiol.pdf
Palaeolithic DNA from Eurasia
Switzerland Grotte du Bichon M 13,560–13,770 cal. BP I2a U5b1h Mutations with respect to the Reconstructed Sapiens Reference Sequence: 146T, 150T, 152T, 195T, 247G, [384G not found], 769G, 825T, 1018G, 2758G, 2885T, 3197C, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, [5656G non found], 7028C, 7146A, 7256C, [7521G not found], 7768G, 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9477A, 9540T, 10398A, 10664C, 10688G, 10810T, 10873T, 10915T, 11467G, 11914G, 12308G, 12372A, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13617C, 13650C, 14182C, 16129G, 16187C, 16223C, 16230A, 16270T, 16278C, 16311T, 16519T Jones 2015
 
Poslednja izmena:
Zaključak je ono što piše.
U "Pratroji" imamo povratni talas neolićana iz Evrope. Verovatno Balkana.
Evo google prevoda.
"Ја никада нисам радила са компликованије материјала. Али вредело сваки сат у лабораторији. Ја би ДНК из Кумтепе материјала у траг Европској пољопривреднике вратио у Анадолију. Такође је забавно да радим с овим материјалом из сајт Кумтепе, јер је то претеча Трои, "

Turkey Kumtepe [Kum6] 6,700 BP H2a 73A, 146T, 195T, 247G, 769G, 825T, 1018G, 2706A, 2758G, 2885T, 3594C, 4104A, 4312C, 4769A, 7146A, 7256C, 8468C, 8655C, 8701A, 9540T, 10398A, 10664C, 10688G, 10873T, 10915T, 11719G, 11914G, 12705C, 13105A, 13276A, 13506C, 13650C, 14766C, 16187C, 16189T, 16223C, 16230A, 16278C, 16311T Omrak 2016

Ovo je blizu.
Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0723/T1, M229 / UH] M 6400-500 BC G2a2a PF3165, PF3166, PF3175, PF3184 X2m2 Mathieson 2015
Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0724/T2 / UP] M 6400-500 BC I CTS6231 K1a4 Mathieson 2015
Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0726/M15, M15.2, M15.2 / UF] F 6400-500 BC H or H5-C16192T Mathieson 2015
Fikirtepe Turkey Menteşe [I0727/M24 / UA JK 16] M 6400-500 BC G CTS11294 K1a2 Mathieson 2015
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ahil71:
Zaključak je ono što piše.
U "Pratroji" imamo povratni talas neolićana iz Evrope. Verovatno Balkana.
Evo google prevoda.
"Ја никада нисам радила са компликованије материјала. Али вредело сваки сат у лабораторији. Ја би ДНК из Кумтепе материјала у траг Европској пољопривреднике вратио у Анадолију. Такође је забавно да радим с овим материјалом из сајт Кумтепе, јер је то претеча Трои, "
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"verovatno balkana" je tvoj zakljucak ili ?
 
filipi:
"verovatno balkana" je tvoj zakljucak ili ?
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Da to je moja pretpostavka.
Ako neko iz Evrope dođe na azijsku obalu Dardanela, smatram da je velika verovatnoća da je on došao sa Balkana.

H2a1: found mostly in Eastern Europe, the North Caucasus and Central Asia. IE diffusion (R1a).
Kod nas je zastupljen sa 2%.

Zanimlji su i novi rezultati iz Grčke.
Greece Theopetra, Thessaly [Theo5] 7605–7529 BC K1c Hofmanová 2015
Greece Theopetra, Thessaly [Theo1] 7288–6771 BC K1c Hofmanová 2015
Greece Revenia [Rev5] F 6438–6264 BC X2b Hofmanová 2015
 
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Kad me već vučete za jezik.

Vinčanci, balkansko anadolska kombinacija, sa desne obale Dunava (uključujući i Bugarsku) proširila se ka Pontima.
Tu su stradali od stepskih R1a Z93 nomada, ali, u skladu sa običajnim pravom, žene su pošteđene.
Nova kultura se širi na istok.

Ovaj supstrat se najbolje oslikava u:
Srubnaya Russia Novoselki, Northern Forest, Samara [I0232/SVP 12] M 1850-1200 BC R1a1a1b2 Z93 U5a1f2 Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Rozhdestveno I, Samara Steppes, Samara [I0234/SVP 25] F 1850-1600 BC I1a1
Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Rozhdestveno I, Samara Steppes, Samara [I0235/SVP 26] F 1850-1600 BC K1b2a
Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka IV, Samara River, Samara [I0358/SVP 6] F 1913-1629 BC H6a1a Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka IV, Samara River, Samara [I0259/SVP 7] F 1850-1200 BC U5a2a1 Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka IV, Samara River, Samara [I0260/SVP 8] M 1850-1200 BC R1a1 M459 U5a1 Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka IV, Samara River, Samara [I0261/SVP 9] M 1850-1200 BC R1a1a L168
H5b Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Barinovka I, Samara River, Samara [I0422/SVP 30] F 1850-1200 BC T1a1 Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Barinovka I, Samara River, Samara [I0423/SVP 31] M 1850-1200 BC R1a1a1b2 Z93 J2b1a2a Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Uvarovka I, Samara River, Samara [I0423/SVP 31] M 1850-1600 BC R1a1a1b2 Z93 T2b4 Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara [I0430/SVP 39] M 1850-1600 BC R1a1a1b2a2a Z2123 H3g 1st degree relative of I0421 Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara [I0431/SVP 40] F 1850-1600 BC H2b Mathieson 2015
Srubnaya Russia Spiridonovka II, Samara River, Samara [I0421/SVP 29] F 1850-1600 BC H3g 1st degree relative of I0430. Mathieson 2015

Ovaj proces potvrđuje i antropologija.
 
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