Etničko porijeklo Albanaca

Румуни верују да Албанци су потомци староседеоца, као што су и Румуни. У коликој мери су Албанци потомци Илира, Трачана или Дачана или неки микс тих група, отворено је питање. Румуни не верују да Албанци су ни са Кавказа ни из Арабије, итд.

Ma bre, nije te to pitao. Niko normalan na čitavom svetu ni ne pominje nikakve seobe iz Kavkaza ili Arabije, sem gotovo potpuno isključivo deretićevskih pseudoistoričara ili njihovih simpatizera, kojima Albanci jako smetaju na Balkanu kao trn u oku i mogu barem nekakvu logičku konzistentnost napraviti svojim novoromantičarskim fantazmagorijama samo ako bi ih na ikoji način izmestili sa Balkanskog poluostrva.

Ono što te je on upitao jeste kojoj si od legitimnih naučnih hipoteza o pojavi Albanaca u (severnoj) Albaniji sklon. Autohtonističkim (ilirskoj) ili alohtonističkim (tračke tj. dačke ili neke sl. severne hipoteze).
 
Не разумем питање.

Савремени албански састоји се од разних стратова: староседелачки са уливом старогрчког, стари латински, балкански латински, словенски, турски, итд.

Pa to je pitanje. Koji starosedelački?

Je li moguće da si zaboravio da postoji celo otvoreno pitanje između manje rasprostranjenih (ali tradicionalnih) autohtohista (ilirska hipoteza) i sve uticajnijih alohtonista (dačko tračke tj. neke severne hipoteze).
 
Pa to je pitanje. Koji starosedelački?

Je li moguće da si zaboravio da postoji celo otvoreno pitanje između manje rasprostranjenih (ali tradicionalnih) autohtohista (ilirska hipoteza) i sve uticajnijih alohtonista (dačko tračke tj. neke severne hipoteze).
Немамо довољно података о овим изумрлим језицима -илирски, трачки, дачки- да би одлучили који микс се још увек налази у савременом албанском.
 
"" The Indo-European languages: New perspectives on a language
family, ed. by Thomas Olander (Cambridge University Press, 2022)""

Albanian

https://bpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/u.osu.edu/dist/4/105142/files/2021/08/12-hyllested-joseph-v03.pdf
5.2 Conclusion
As noted at the outset, the relationships that Albanian shows within IE are complicated, and
the evidence we have discussed should make that point abundantly clear. We have surveyed
here the most striking possible connections that Albanian shows with other branches of Indo-
European, based on key pieces of evidence:25 Technically speaking, from a genealogical stand-
point, Messapic is likely to be the closest IE language to Albanian (Matzinger 2005). However,
in the absence of sufficient evidence, that connection must remain speculative. Among the
other connections, leaving aside the broad centum-satem parameter, since we do not see it as a
valid dialect division in the usual sense, we are left with the following, listed here from the least
compelling (with Italic) to the most compelling (with Greek):
Albanian and Italic
Albanian and Celtic
Albanian and Indo-Iranian
Albanian and Germanic
Albanian and Balto-Slavic
Albanian and Armenian
Albanian and Armenian, Greek, Phrygian and Messapic (etc.)
Albanian and Greek

25.... We have deliberately restricted ourselves to the best evidence, leaving out some intriguing shared
substratum words such as Alb. dëllinje, dëlli ‘juniper’ ~ Gk. (Hes.) σχέλινος ‘wild cypress or juniper’,
indicating a protoform *(s)g̑ʰelin-(i̯)o- (Danka & Witczak 1995: 132); and formations containing iso-
lated roots such as *u̯isg̑ʰ-i(i̯)o- > Alb. vithe ‘haunch, especially of a horse’ ~ Gk. ἰσχίον ‘hip-joint; loins,
haunch’ (Mann 1952: 39).
 
„АУТОХТОНИСТИ” И АЛБАНЦИ

„У многим енциклопедијама се може наћи мишљење да је порекло Албанаца у великој мери загонетно. Изворни материјал је не само недовољан него и унеколико противречан, тако да није лако донети ваљане и поуздане доказе и одговоре на ово питање.
Савремена српска медиевистика о пореклу Албанаца и њиховој историји у средњем веку има следећи став: нису непосредни настављачи Илира или Дарданаца јер у време када почиње процес формирања Албанаца, ти стари народи већ одавно нису постојали; Илири нису директни преци Албанаца, како тврде албански научници; Илири нестају најкасније у III, а Албанци се први пут помињу тек у XI столећу, што значи да између њих постоји јаз од око осам векова; „настали на старобалканским основама, уз знатне друге утицаје, Албанци су у суштини, на Балканском полуострву, нова етничка формација”; у XIV и XV веку долази до ширења Албанаца према Тесалији, Епиру и Етолији, и коначно Пелопонезу, али у византијским изворима нема помена Албанаца на територији Југославије (подразумева се СФРЈ), што значи ни на Косову. Ово су резултати до којих су дошли наши најугледнији историчари и изложили их у књизи Илири и Албанци, коју је објавила Српска академија наука и уметности 1988. године.
У питању је пет подробних научних текстова, објављених како на српском тако и у преводу на француски – због осетљивости тематике рачунало се не само на нашу публику него и на рецепцију књиге у иностранству – чији су аутори академици, научници светског гласа, Милутин Гарашанин, Фанула Папазоглу, Владислав Поповић, Божидар Ферјанчић и Сима Ћирковић.”
Радивој Радић, Клио се стиди, Еволута, Београд 2016.
 
Radivoj Radić:
1721482076752.png

1721482032040.png
Dobar glas daleko se čuje.
 
Немамо довољно података о овим изумрлим језицима -илирски, трачки, дачки- да би одлучили који микс се још увек налази у савременом албанском.

Mozemo sa sigurnoscu reci da nije tracki jer tracki bi imao mnogo vise grcizmi i manje latinizmi, sto kod albanskog je obrnuto.

Sto se dackog tice, tolika migracija bez ikakvih tragova je skoro nemoguce.
 
Ono što te je on upitao jeste kojoj si od legitimnih naučnih hipoteza o pojavi Albanaca u (severnoj) Albaniji sklon. Autohtonističkim (ilirskoj) ili alohtonističkim (tračke tj. dačke ili neke sl. severne hipoteze).

Sta je legitimno? Legitimna je teorija o seobi citavog naroda u sred evrope bez ikakvih zapisa? To zvuci vise kao dereticevizam
 
1721509544839.jpeg

Lexical cleansing: Slavic toponyms in Albania (or out of?)​

At first people in Albania thought it was a joke, but politicians in that country have proposed the creation of a government commission to "Albanize" all place names of Slavic origin...and there are many of those.


Marjola Rukaj

President Bamir Topi first mentioned the idea during a routine visit to a village in the country's northeast. At first, it seemed like a simple gaffe made by a president who lacked better speech ideas for a minor event. But a few months later, Prime Minister Berisha also mentioned Slavic toponymy. Berisha, discussing the issue in one of his new government's first meetings, did not hesitate to take the idea further. "We have to create a commission to replace all the Slavic toponymy in the country with corresponding Albanian toponyms originating before the Slavic invasion," Berisha said.

At the same time Berisha mentioned the issue of Slavic toponyms, the Albanian government was discussing the need for mandatory Albanian names for all licensed private ventures and enterprises in the country. The Prime Minister suggested that a commission be created to go through the names and apply censorship as needed. In that sense, Berisha went even further with a proposal to "Albanize" all place names in the country.

The stance, while not new, comes unexpectedly and is difficult to understand. The widespread Slavic toponyms, found all over Albania's territory, have always been a concern for Albanian nationalist intellectuals. These Slavic place names undermine a thesis crucial to the legitamacy of the Albanian nation-state and the basis of the country's nationalism: the story of Illyrian-Albanian indigenousness.

What is more, the prime minister's statement derives from a common thesis found in Albanian classical nationalism according to which the abundance of Slavic toponyms across present-day Albania is a result of past invasions by neighboring states' and their repression of Albanian territory.

The valid view of the Albanian nationalist politicians and intellectuals is that the Slavic toponymy in Albanian lands was imposed by ethnic Slavic rulers who, at different times, dominated this part of the Balkans. This view assumes that Albanians were an indigenous people, continuously present without interruption, who were constant victims of waves of migration of other Balkan peoples. This view, in response to neighboring nationalisms, attempts to firmly exclude the presence of the Slavic population on Albanian territory.

In order to reconcile history with the existence of the present-day Albanian nation, this particular presentation of Albanian history depicts the Albanians as static and ethnically and culturally unchanged over time.

But the issue is very complex. Albanian territory is so crammed with Slavic place names that non-Slavic place names, such as those of Albano-phone, Greek, Turkish , and Italian origin, seem like a tiny minority.

Even Prime Minister Berisha's idea to form a commission to create Albanian place names seems like a huge and costly initiative, not to mention being out of order and ridiculous on account of its primitive eighteenth-century nationalism. But for the time being Greek place names in southern Albania, Turkish ones in other regions, and Latin and Italian ones along the coast do not seem to be a source of concern.

The practice of renaming places is not new in Albania. Enver Hoxha's national-communism made many attempts at de-Slavization, particularly in the southeast regions of the country. Even the family names of the Slav-speaking minority were Albanized, their typical endings replaced by more Albanian-sounding, "Illyrian" endings. Some Slavic family names were fully replaced by Albanian names. The mechanism at present does not seem very different from that of the Hoxha regime. National-communism interpreted the Albanian past according to its own criteria and moulded national identity.

The fact that the issue of Slavic place names has resurfaced, even today, contradicts the Albanian government's continuous international declarations that Albania wants good relations with its neighbors. It is also an indicator of the typical way in which Albanian nationalist rhetoric cultivates a sense of victimhood and paints Albania's neighbors as continuously creeping in on Albanian territory.

http://www.osservatoriobalcani.org/article/articleview/12195/1/404/
 
Pogledajte prilog 1582579

Lexical cleansing: Slavic toponyms in Albania (or out of?)​

At first people in Albania thought it was a joke, but politicians in that country have proposed the creation of a government commission to "Albanize" all place names of Slavic origin...and there are many of those.


Marjola Rukaj

President Bamir Topi first mentioned the idea during a routine visit to a village in the country's northeast. At first, it seemed like a simple gaffe made by a president who lacked better speech ideas for a minor event. But a few months later, Prime Minister Berisha also mentioned Slavic toponymy. Berisha, discussing the issue in one of his new government's first meetings, did not hesitate to take the idea further. "We have to create a commission to replace all the Slavic toponymy in the country with corresponding Albanian toponyms originating before the Slavic invasion," Berisha said.

At the same time Berisha mentioned the issue of Slavic toponyms, the Albanian government was discussing the need for mandatory Albanian names for all licensed private ventures and enterprises in the country. The Prime Minister suggested that a commission be created to go through the names and apply censorship as needed. In that sense, Berisha went even further with a proposal to "Albanize" all place names in the country.

The stance, while not new, comes unexpectedly and is difficult to understand. The widespread Slavic toponyms, found all over Albania's territory, have always been a concern for Albanian nationalist intellectuals. These Slavic place names undermine a thesis crucial to the legitamacy of the Albanian nation-state and the basis of the country's nationalism: the story of Illyrian-Albanian indigenousness.

What is more, the prime minister's statement derives from a common thesis found in Albanian classical nationalism according to which the abundance of Slavic toponyms across present-day Albania is a result of past invasions by neighboring states' and their repression of Albanian territory.

The valid view of the Albanian nationalist politicians and intellectuals is that the Slavic toponymy in Albanian lands was imposed by ethnic Slavic rulers who, at different times, dominated this part of the Balkans. This view assumes that Albanians were an indigenous people, continuously present without interruption, who were constant victims of waves of migration of other Balkan peoples. This view, in response to neighboring nationalisms, attempts to firmly exclude the presence of the Slavic population on Albanian territory.

In order to reconcile history with the existence of the present-day Albanian nation, this particular presentation of Albanian history depicts the Albanians as static and ethnically and culturally unchanged over time.

But the issue is very complex. Albanian territory is so crammed with Slavic place names that non-Slavic place names, such as those of Albano-phone, Greek, Turkish , and Italian origin, seem like a tiny minority.

Even Prime Minister Berisha's idea to form a commission to create Albanian place names seems like a huge and costly initiative, not to mention being out of order and ridiculous on account of its primitive eighteenth-century nationalism. But for the time being Greek place names in southern Albania, Turkish ones in other regions, and Latin and Italian ones along the coast do not seem to be a source of concern.

The practice of renaming places is not new in Albania. Enver Hoxha's national-communism made many attempts at de-Slavization, particularly in the southeast regions of the country. Even the family names of the Slav-speaking minority were Albanized, their typical endings replaced by more Albanian-sounding, "Illyrian" endings. Some Slavic family names were fully replaced by Albanian names. The mechanism at present does not seem very different from that of the Hoxha regime. National-communism interpreted the Albanian past according to its own criteria and moulded national identity.

The fact that the issue of Slavic place names has resurfaced, even today, contradicts the Albanian government's continuous international declarations that Albania wants good relations with its neighbors. It is also an indicator of the typical way in which Albanian nationalist rhetoric cultivates a sense of victimhood and paints Albania's neighbors as continuously creeping in on Albanian territory.

http://www.osservatoriobalcani.org/article/articleview/12195/1/404/

Kakva je ovo jezuitska propaganda? Treba da bude "Serb toponyms" a ne "Slavic toponyms".
 
Je li može popis albanoloških naučnih dela koja si pročitao:
1)_____
2)______
3)_____
4)_____
5)_____
Itd.

Ono predavanje, jesi li barem to pogledao?

Jesi li išta, uopšte, odslušao, odgledao, pročitao. Ikada, igde?

No, suština je @guslar1389 da je ovde odgovor 0 i da u ovom dobu dominacije ADHD ti ne možeš doslovno (!) čak ni pola sata vremena svog života da izdvojiš da pogledaš jedan klip, dok možeš značajno više da potrošiš na prepucavanje po forumu.

Kao i da nemaš pojma o ovim stvarima ništa, te i govoriš iz neznanja.
 
No, suština je @guslar1389 da je ovde odgovor 0 i da u ovom dobu dominacije ADHD ti ne možeš doslovno (!) čak ni pola sata vremena svog života da izdvojiš da pogledaš jedan klip, dok možeš značajno više da potrošiš na prepucavanje po forumu.

Kao i da nemaš pojma o ovim stvarima ništa, te i govoriš iz neznanja.

Ko ima neznanje se vidi jer nema odgovor niti argument
 
Ko ima neznanje se vidi jer nema odgovor niti argument

Odgovor na šta? Kakvi argumenti?

1000015520.jpg


Ti ponavljaš kao pokvarena ploča da je ovo zeleno severno od crvene linije smešteno južno, umesto severno i očekuješ da tebi neko nešto odgovori na tvoje hrpe gluposti koje ovde bukvalnom lupetanjem napamet prosipao non-stop?

Šta je potrebno, da ti se napravi YouTube klip kao tutorijal da bi ti se objasnile strane sveta, specifično za tebe, samo zato što te smara da bukvalno i najelementarnije stvari izguglaš?
 

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