Mali ilirski recnik


Kada govorimo o etimologiji i citatima, strašno je nepristojno da nas Pravilnik Foruma ograničava. Ukoliko neko nije skontao, evo odrednice iz grčkog etimološkog rečnika o glagolu koji predstavlja koren cenzurisane reči. :prstic:

Etymology Frisk
Grammatical information: v.
Meaning: futuo (Thera, Gort., Plu. Pyrrh. 28). On the spread and stilistic character of οἴφω Wackernagel Unt. 228.
Other forms: uncertain -έω (Mimn.; Schwyzer 721).
Compounds: As 2. member in φιλ-οίφ-ας m. (Theoc. 4, 62; on -ας Schwyzer 451), Κόρ-οιφος Att. PN, also Κόρ-οιβος (Phryg. form?, Kretschmer Glotta 14, 199).
Derivatives: οἰφ-όλης m. fututor (Naxos, H.), -όλις f. (H.); on the formation Schwyzer 484 w. n. 4, Chantraine Form. 238.
Origin: XX [etym. unknown]
Etymology: From οἴφω the synonymous Skt. yábhati, Slav., e.g. OCS jebǫ, Russ. jeb-ú, -átь can hardly be separated. For the phonetic deviation (IE *oibh- : *i̯ebh- or *i̯obh-) one could best blame the obscene meaning (Pisani Mél. Pedersen 242 n. 1); after Specht KZ 59, 121 n. 2, however, IE inversion of the anlaut; diff., not to be preferred, Brugmann IF 29, 238 n. 1 a. 32, 319ff. (agreeing Schwyzer 722 n. 1): zero grade w. prefix o-ibh-; still diff. Hirt (s. Brugmann l. c.): disyllabic oi̯ebh-. -- An unaspirated Illyrian form is supposed by v. Blumenthal Hesychst. 8 f. in Οἴβαλος, name of a Laconian Heros; agreeing Krahe Die Spr. d. Illyrier 46. From there after v. B. ὠβάλλετο διωθεῖτο H. (?); further quite doubtful combinationa ibd. -- WP. 1, 198, Pok. 298. - One has tried to connect Ζέφυρος, s.v.

Seks.PNG


https://lsj.gr/wiki/οἴφω

Nisam u potpunosti siguran šta je ovde konačna aluzija...da li je Ojbal definitivno ime stranog porekla za lakonsku legendarnu ličnost (oko čega, čini se, postoji koncenzus) ili...hm, nalazim gotovo neverovatnim da su stari Grci usvojili nešto tako bazično, fundamentalnu životnu potrebu kao što je seks, od svojih severnih suseda.

Našim autohtonistima će biti posebno interesantno što izgleda da nema kognata sem u slovenskim jezicima (izuzev sanskrita). :namcor:
 
Poslednja izmena:
Pa zar nije to malo previše drugačije? Koja je sličnost sem u prva dva početna glasa?







Evo šta Krahe kaže i za DIjala:

Pogledajte prilog 595962
Pogledajte prilog 595963

Ovo je vrlo, vrlo interesantno razmišljanje. Fon Blumental, koji je detaljno prostudirao Hesijihev leksikon, ukazao je da kralj Sparte Ojbal, ***** (Οἴβαλος) ima ime koje se ne može rastumačiti grčkom etimologijom. Zapravo, čitava najdrevnija mitologija Lakonaca prepuna negrčkih naziva. To ukazuja na ostatke nekog predgrčkos supstrata, odnosno moguće da je seoba Doraca na jug, poznijih grčkih plemena, bila homogena. Možda su iz područja planina Pind dovukli za sobom i neke druge etnije, a moguće je i da su prapreci Dorana bili nešto etnički ne heterogeniji, već više prelazni izeđu severnih plemena, kakvi su bili drevni Makedonci u odnosu prema ilirskim i tračkim skupinama? :think:

Vrlo je interesantna ova paralela mitoloških Dijal-Ojbal.
Ојбал ме подсећа на дачком Декебалу.
 
Baš je, onako, tračanski... :hahaha:

Ko nama piše istoriju... :kafa:

Ako si završio sa listanjem, traganjem i izdvajanjem reči koje bi mogle u većoj ili manjoj meri da vuku na nešto slovensko, zamolio bih te da pročitaš najduži poznati tekst na tračkom jeziku.

natpis.jpg


ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ
ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ
ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ
ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ
ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ
ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ
ΡΑΖ

ΗΛΤΑ

ROLISTENEASN
ERENEATIL
TEANĒSKOA
RAZEADOM
EANTILEZY
PTAMIĒE
RAZ
ĒLTA
 
Ako si završio sa listanjem, traganjem i izdvajanjem reči koje bi mogle u većoj ili manjoj meri da vuku na nešto slovensko, zamolio bih te da pročitaš najduži poznati tekst na tračkom jeziku.

Pogledajte prilog 596740

ΡΟΛΙΣΤΕΝΕΑΣΝ
ΕΡΕΝΕΑΤΙΛ
ΤΕΑΝΗΣΚΟΑ
ΡΑΖΕΑΔΟΜ
ΕΑΝΤΙΛΕΖΥ
ΠΤΑΜΙΗΕ
ΡΑΖ

ΗΛΤΑ

ROLISTENEASN
ERENEATIL
TEANĒSKOA
RAZEADOM
EANTILEZY
PTAMIĒE
RAZ
ĒLTA
Nisam ni počeo.

Otkud znaš da je na tračkom kad se na zna da li je trački uopšte postojao?

Znači, to je takav kvazinaučni, pacerski pristup da nemam reči.
 
Da utvrdimo neke reči s područja Trakije:



Reči iz "tračanskog rečnika"
1. haimos, haimon, ·saimas (-ап) ,КатП1, Bergkette': Haimon, Haimos (Berg) - idg. *siJimo-, vgl. aind. sJman- т. ,Scheitel, Grenze', ir. Slm ,Kette'. ida ,Ваит; Wald': ON Ide, Idakos, vgl. air./id ,Ваит, Holz, Wald' - idg.

haim - planinski lanac

Šta se odavde vidi?

i. Vidi se da tzv. tračka reč ima grčke sufikse -os ili -on.

ii. Vidi se da je u pitanju srpska reč hum od hlm, koja je u "tračko" vreme glasila hъm, gde su Grci debelo jer zapisivali diftongom ai uz dodatak grčkog sufiksa.

iii. Reč znači isto što i srpska reč hum - planinu, "planinski lanac".


2. Još jedna "tračka" reč koja neodoljivo liči na srpsko svobodan (danas slobodan) kad ga čuje uho stranca koji u svom jeziku niti ima svih srpskih glasova, nit ima smisla za melodiju srpskog govora:


sabazias, sabadias ,frei': GN Sabazios, Sabadios, vgl. abulg. svobodb ,frei'; idg. *s1j.obhodhio-s.

sabaz, sabad - slobodan

Dakle,

i. Vidi se da tzv. tračka reč ima grčke sufikse -as.

ii. Vidi se da je u pitanju srpska reč svobodan (danas slobodan).

iii. Reč znači isto što i srpska reč slobodan


3. vairas, vairus ,sich drehend, sich windend': ON Btiiros (= Vtiiros), vgl. lit.
vairUs, vairas ,sich drehend, sich windend', schwed. vJrr ,Spirale'.

vair - vir

Okretati se, uvijati se - vair(as/us). Kaže nemački genije: uporedi sa švedskim virr - spirala.

Mi kažemo trački vair je srpski vir.


4. kalas ,Ende, Gegend; Grenzgebiet': ON Kalindoia, vgl. lit. galas ,Ende, (Acker-, Wiesen-, Wald-)grenze', lеН. gals ,Gegend'; idg. *glJolo-s.

Kaže "kraj" i ne pade mu na um srpsko konac.


5. ketri-, ketre- ,vier, vierter': PN Ketri-poris, Kedre-polis, Cetrilas, idg. *klJetr- in griech. tetra- ,vier' (in Kompositen), kymr. pedry- ,vierfach', lit. keturi ,vier', lett. cetri, abulg. cetyre ,vier'.

ketri, ketre - četiri, četvrti

Ovo ketri, ketre u značenju 4 (četiri) mora da je "iz litvanskog"došlo u trački. :hahaha:

Pa kako Grk da zapiše glas Č?


6. perkon ,Donner': Perkon ,Donnergott', belegt als Beiname des Heros, vgl. lit. perkunas ,Donner, Blitzschlag' und ,Donnergott'.

Perkon - grom, bog groma. Gde sam to već čuo? Ah, da, slovenski bog groma.

7. рора ,Bohne' oder ,Hugel' (1): ON Pupe(n)sis vicus, vgl. lit. рирд ,Bohne'
oder alb. рирё ,Hugel' .

Popa - "grašak", verovatno bobъ pogrešno zapisano kao popa.

1568978807511.png




8. Interesantna reč za pšenicu - pura:

pura- ,Weizen, Dinkel': GN Pyru-merulas, vgl. griech. pyros ,Weizen', lit. рига;,Winterweizen', kslaw. руго ,Spelz, Dinkel'.

Kaže da je reč označavala pšenicu ili pir (travu srodnu pšenici od koje se takođe pravi hlebno brašno). Verovatno odavde izraz pura za palentu u našim krajevima jer se pre predtavljanja kukuruza kod nas bršno pira/pure spremao kuvanjem (up. purenjak).
purenjak, pečenjak – pečeni kukuruz
purenjak, purenje – ima li već kukuruza za purenje; Vuk, Rečnik
U osnovi je praslovenski i starosrpski glagol puriti – peći, tretirati vatrom
...baciti po žeravi da se ispeče (riba, meso, krompir, kukuruz), vidi P.Skok puriti se, češ. pyriti
izvedena rečpurnjati
puriti
– starosrpski, zaboravljeni glagol koji se povezuje sa starogrčkom reči πυρ pyr – vatra link
(up. furiti, prim. Mrkalj)
izvedena reč – pirit, Pyrit ruda gvožđa, tzv. lažno zlato, jedna od najstarijh poznatih ruda, koja se obrađuje tako što se puri, tretira vatrom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelt
HJP: http://hjp.znanje.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=dl1jUBM=&keyword=pura
Stara reč pir, zamenjena je u moderno doba engleskom:
"Danas žitarica spelta ili krupnik ima široku primenu, između ostalog i zato što mnogi ljudi koji su alergični na pšenicu nisu alergični na speltu (napominjemo da ... "


9. raka(s) ,ausgegrabene Stelle, Grube': ON Rhaku/e, vgl. lit. rdkti (ra(n)ku, rak(i)au) ,stochern, aufstechen, ausgraben'.

"Raka - jama, otkop."

HJP:

Etimologija: raka ✧ prasl. *orka (stsl. raka, rus. ráka, bug. raka) ← lat. arca: sanduk


10. seina(s) ,Dorf, Weiler': ON *Seinu-/aza(s), idg. *k/Jeino-, vgl. arm. sen, Оеп. sini ,Dorf', griech. (Rhodos) kt6ina ,Wohnsitz' aus idg. *k/Joina.

Seina - "selo". Up. selna. Promenu uporedi sa hlm : haim.


11. sem(e)la (st. zeт(e)/a) ,Erde': GN Seтe/e, vgl. abulg. zeт/'a ,Erde', russ. zeт/'a, lit. zeтe, lett. zeтe.

Semla - zemlja.

Baš je, onako, tračanski... :hahaha:

Ko nama piše istoriju...


12. struna ,Stromung, FluB': ON Struneilon, vgl. lit. sгUti (smvu, smnu) ,sich (mit Wasser, Blut) fiillen, iiberstromen', FIN Stmnd.

Struna - "struja, reka".

Očigledno oblik reči (rečna) struja. Najverovatnije u kontaminaciji sa pridevom, strujna.

HJP: struja ✧ prasl. i stsl. struja (rus. strujá, slov. struja), lit. srauja ← ie. *srew-: teći (grč. rheȋn, skr. sravati: teče)


13. zbel- (aus alterem *zibel-) ,blitzend; Blitz': GN Zbel-thurdos, vgl. lett. zibele ,blitzend', zibelft ,blitzen, schimmern, glanzen'.

zbel - munja.

"Zabel", kad ti se pred očima zabeli kao našim bebejcima.
 
16. laza(s) ,Durchhau (im Wald), Gereut; gerodeter Platz': ON *Seinu-Iaza(s), vgl. s.-kr. laz ,Durchhau, Gereut; gerodeter Platz', russ. laz ,Weg der Waldtiere zum Fluf3 oder See', lazina ,Gereut, lichte Stelle im Wald'; idg. *Iag'ho-s, *Iag'ha zur Wurzel *Ieg'h-.

laz - krčevina, šumski put

Laz na slovenačkom znači čistina (u šumi), proplanak.

Stara srpska reč. Up. sa pro-laz, iz-laz; rus. laz - staza šumskih životinja.
 
Poslednja izmena:
17. pras- bzw. *praus- ,waschen, spritzen, sprudeln': Prasias limne (See) aus alterem *Prausias, vgl. lit. prausti (prausiu, -siau) ,(das Gesicht, den Korper, ein Kind) waschen', lett. sprauslot ,spritzen, prusten', aind. pru~1)ati ,spritzt'.

pras- - prati, prskati, penušati
 
haha verovatno, bilo je podosta kasno :D

mada, Grci su "kolibu" pisali na razlicite nacine, recimo postojal je i ova forma "καλυβός "... lici pomalo na "κάναβος", zar ne? :)

Čekaj...a gde se pominje tako? Gde nam je onaj sajt za pretraživanje antičkih reči...zaboravih sad. :dash:

Dok razmatramo, evo malo Tukidida (Istorija Peloponeskog rata); I knjiga, poglavlje 133; isto kao i kod Herodota, ali u 'južnijem' kontekstu:

Θουκυδίδης:
τότε δὴ οἱ ἔφοροι δείξαντος αὐτοῦ τὰ γράμματα μᾶλλον μὲν ἐπίστευσαν, αὐτήκοοι δὲ βουληθέντες ἔτι γενέσθαι αὐτοῦ Παυσανίου τι λέγοντος, ἀπὸ παρασκευῆς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπὶ Ταίναρον ἱκέτου οἰχομένου καὶ σκηνησαμένου διπλῆν διαφράγματι καλύβην, ἐς ἣν τῶν [τε] ἐφόρων ἐντός τινας ἔκρυψε, καὶ Παυσανίου ὡς αὐτὸν ἐλθόντος καὶ ἐρωτῶντος τὴν πρόφασιν τῆς ἱκετείας ᾔσθοντο πάντα σαφῶς, αἰτιωμένου τοῦ ἀνθρώπου τά τε περὶ αὐτοῦ γραφέντα καὶ τἆλλ᾽ ἀποφαίνοντος καθ᾽ ἕκαστον, ὡς οὐδὲν πώποτε αὐτὸν ἐν ταῖς πρὸς βασιλέα διακονίαις παραβάλοιτο, προτιμηθείη δ᾽ ἐν ἴσῳ τοῖς πολλοῖς τῶν διακόνων ἀποθανεῖν, κἀκείνου αὐτά τε ταῦτα ξυνομολογοῦντος καὶ περὶ τοῦ παρόντος οὐκ ἐῶντος ὀργίζεσθαι, ἀλλὰ πίστιν ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ διδόντος τῆς ἀναστάσεως καὶ ἀξιοῦντος ὡς τάχιστα πορεύεσθαι καὶ μὴ τὰ πρασσόμενα διακωλύειν.

Engleski prevod:

Thucydides:
On being shown the letter the Ephors now felt more certain. Still, they wished to hear Pausanias commit himself with their own ears. Accordingly the man went by appointment to Taenarus as a suppliant, and there built himself a hut divided into two by a partition; within which he concealed some of the Ephors and let them hear the whole matter plainly. For Pausanias came to him and asked him the reason of his suppliant position; and the man reproached him with the order that he had written concerning him, and one by one declared all the rest of the circumstances, how he who had never yet brought him into any danger, while employed as agent between him and the king, was yet just like the mass of his servants, to be rewarded with death. Admitting all this, and telling him not to be angry about the matter, Pausanias gave him the pledge of raising him up from the temple, and begged him to set off as quickly as possible, and not to hinder the business in hand.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0200:book=1:chapter=133:section=1

..i drugo, V knjiga, 52. glava:

Θουκυδίδης:
οἰκιῶν γὰρ οὐχ ὑπαρχουσῶν, ἀλλ᾽ ἐν καλύβαις πνιγηραῖς ὥρᾳ ἔτους διαιτωμένων ὁ φθόρος ἐγίγνετο οὐδενὶ κόσμῳ, ἀλλὰ καὶ νεκροὶ ἐπ᾽ ἀλλήλοις ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἔκειντο καὶ ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς ἐκαλινδοῦντο καὶ περὶ τὰς κρήνας ἁπάσας ἡμιθνῆτες τοῦ ὕδατος ἐπιθυμίᾳ.

Engleski prevod:

Thucydides:
As there were no houses to receive them, they had to be lodged at the hot season of the year in stifling cabins, where the mortality raged without restraint. The bodies of dying men lay one upon another, and half-dead creatures reeled about the streets and gathered round all the fountains in their longing for water.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0200:book=2:chapter=52:section=2


Tukidid.jpg
 
Poslednja izmena:
Imamo u BIblioteci iz I st. naše ere (tzv. Pseudo-Apolodor), vrlo važnog izvora za proučavanje grčke mitologije, i jednu nimfu koja nosi ime Kalibe. Za nju se tvrdi da je bila supruga legendarnog trojanskog kralja Laomedonta (poznatiji kao Prijamov otac). Kralj Laomedont je sa Kalibe imao jednog sina; Bukoliona.

Βιβλιοθήκη Απολλοδώρου:
Ἶλος δὲ γήμας Εὐρυδίκην τὴν Ἀδράστου Λαομέδοντα ἐγέννησεν, ὃς γαμεῖ Στρυμὼ τὴν Σκαμάνδρου, κατὰ δέ τινας Πλακίαν τὴν Ὀτρέως, κατ᾽ ἐνίους δὲ Λευκίππην, καὶ τεκνοῖ παῖδας μὲν Τιθωνὸν Λάμπον Κλυτίον Ἱκετάονα Ποδάρκην, θυγατέρας δὲ Ἡσιόνην καὶ Κίλλαν καὶ Ἀστυόχην, ἐκ δὲ νύμφης Καλύβης Βουκολίωνα.

Pseudo-Apollodorus:
And Ilus married Eurydice, daughter of Adrastus, and begat Laomedon, who married Strymo, daughter of Scamander; but according to some his wife was Placia, daughter of Otreus, and according to others she was Leucippe; and he begat five sons, Tithonus, Lampus, Clytius, Hicetaon, Podarces, and three daughters, Hesione, Cilla, and Astyoche; and by a nymph Calybe he had a son Bucolion.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...ary:book=3:chapter=12&highlight=calybe#note17

Ako je za verovati Homeru (Ilijada, VI, 23) Bukolion je bio kopile, odnosno posledica Laomedontove afere sa ovom nimfom.

Interesantno je etimološko razglabanje ovih imena. Nimfa Kalibe nosi ime po udžerici, a njeno trojansko kraljevsko kopile po stoci:

https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheKalybe.html

https://lsj.gr/wiki/cattle

βοσκήματα, osnov za ime, znači 'stoka'. Treba istražiti poreklo i ove reči, da bismo videli krije li se možda još neki ključ tu koji bi nam pomogao. :think:. No, to po svemu sudeći najverovatnije znači da je Kalibe bila jedna od Epimelida.

A šta možemo ovde dodati, a da je bitno za ono što nas ovde najviše i interesuje? Pa, drevni Grci su mitološkim ličnostima često davali imena po rečima koje su prostim ljudima zvučale strano; dakle ili po arhaičnim izrazima koji su skoro iz upotrebe izašli, ili po stranim rečima, koje su običnom čoveku davale utisak nečeg gotovo vanzemaljskog (poslednja kategorija su, naravno, reči koje su ostale žive prosto od nekih predgrčkih stanovnika, ili sinkretičkim putem dospele u grčku kulturu putem helenizacije). Dakle, posebno s obzirom na to da se ovde radi o Trojancima; azijskom narodu, dosta drugačijem od kulture Helena, tipujem da je tu reč o nečem sličnom kao i na polju legendarnih ličnosti Lakonije (pa i pomenutog Oibala)...o upotrebi strane reči (odnosno stranog porekla) da se nazove ova nimfa što je mešala prste u Trojance. Dakle, imamo potencijalno i jednu mitografsku potvrdu onoga na šta nam ukazuju lingvisti.
 

Etymology
The ending in "-βος" is found also in κάκκαβος (kákkabos), κάναβος (kánabos) and σίττυβος (síttubos). The noun is probably related to κόλλιξ (kóllix, “type of bread”) and κολλύρα (kollúra, “cake, tablet”). The word is no doubt Pre-Greek.

A ko, molim vas lepo, kaže "kolač" od imenice kolo koja označava okruglu formu?

collapse (v.)
1732, "fall together, fall into an irregular mass through loss of support or rigidity," from Latin collapsus, past participle of collabi "fall together," from assimilated form of com "with, together" (see com-) + labi "to fall, slip" (see lapse (n.)).
Figurative sense of "come to nothing, fail" is from 1801. Transitive sense "cause to collapse" is from 1883. The adjective collapsed is attested from c. 1600, originally of groups of persons, "fallen from a spiritual or religious state," perhaps from co- + lapsed. Related: Collapsing.


Kao što već rekoh, koliba (baraka) lako kolabira (sklopi se) jer je kolebljiva kao na kolima.
 
Poslednja izmena:

Mislio sam na καλυβός. Veza ne vodi nikuda.

Da nastavim misao vezano za kalýbē. Postoji još jedan razlog zašto Kalibe definitivno pripada Epimelijadama. Još jedno ime za tu vrstu nimfi jeste: Βουκολαι. Dakle, slično kao i sa njenim sinom, trojanskim kraljevićem Bukolionom...po boukolos, 'pastirske' nimfe. Pre polovine III stoleća naše ere Filostrat Stariji sa Lemna ih tako pominje u Slkama (2,11; u poglavlju posvećenom Panu):

Philostratus the Elder:
Pan, the nymphs say, dances badly and goes beyond bounds in his leaping, leaping up and jumping aloft after the manner of sportive goats; and they say that they would teach him a different kind of dancing, or a more delightful character; when he, however, pays no heed to them but, his garment extended, tries to make love to them they set upon him at noon, when Pan is said to abandon the hunt and go to sleep. Formerly he used to sleep relaxed, with peaceful nostril and soothing his angry spirit with slumber, but today he is very angry; for the Nymphs have fallen upon him, and already Pan’s hands have been tied behind his back, and he fears for his legs since the Nymphs wish to seize them. Moreover, his beard, which he values most highly, has been shaven off with razors which have been roughly applies to it, and they say that they will persuade Echo to scorn him and no longer even to answer his call. Here are the Nymphs in a group, but do you look at them by classes; for some are Naiades – these who are shaking drops of dew from their hair; and the lean slenderness of the country nymphs is no white less beautiful than dew; and the flower nymphs have hair that resembles hyacinth flowers.

https://www.theoi.com/Text/PhilostratusElder2A.html

Pastirska, seoska nimfa; kuća koja predstavlja dom, rađa stoku (ovce zaštitna, reprezentativna životinja ove vrste nimfi). Simbolika Kalibe i Bukoliona je više nego evidentna. Kao što rekoh, treba dobro istražiti etimologiju imena svih ličnosti koje se pojavljuju u ovom mitosu. :think:Npr. i sam Bukolion je, verovatno po navici svog ćaće, spanđao jednu nimfu. Kao što nam pripoveda Homer u već navođenom delu Ilijade, Bukolion je završio sa Abarbareje (Αβαρβαρεη). Ime joj bukvalno znači ne-varvarkinja; zašto? Pa zato što štrči kao trn u oku; u moru varvarskom. Možda za razliku od matere, Bukolion krenuo domaćim putem? :per:

https://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheAbarbaree.html

Inače, oni su po Homeru imali blizance; Ajsepa i Pedasa. Obojica Kalibinih unuka stradali su u Trojanskom ratu; živote im je oduzeo grčki heroj Eurial.

Mali problem ovom tumačenju stvara to što Homer ne spominje direktno ime Laomedontove nimfe. Samo se kaže da je bio sa jednom nimfom. A to nam ostavlja pseudo-Apolodora od pre manje od dva milenijuma kao jedini izvor koji nam pruža njeno ime.

P. S. Kalibe je jedna od pastirskih nimfi...dom pastira; koliba? A za Bukolionovu (stočarevu) ženu, takođe nimfu, Homer izričito kaže da je nimfa fontane; izvor vode (kao jedna od Najada). Šta je ono strašno važno za stoku? :ceka:
 
Poslednja izmena od moderatora:
Mislio sam na καλυβός. Veza ne vodi nikuda.


Prvo sam misli oda su ovo "kavva" i "kali" nekako povezani, ubrzo sam ukapirao da nisu, ali tragajuci za tom promasenom vezom, zapalo mi je za oko zapalo ovo sto je Mrkalj vec okacio.


"The ending in "-βος" is found also in κάκκαβος (kákkabos), κάναβος (kánabos) and σίττυβος (síttubos). The noun is probably related to κόλλιξ (kóllix, “type of bread”) and κολλύρα (kollúra, “cake, tablet”). The word is no doubt Pre-Greek."

tako da sve vise mislim da je ovo "koli" u kolibi, povezano sa:

"From Proto-Slavic *kolo, from Proto-Indo-European *kʷekʷlom (“circle”), *kʷékʷlos."
 
Čuveni sirski besednik i satiričar, Lukijan iz Samosate iz II st. naše ere. Napisao je brojna dela, a jedno od njih zove se Herodot; osmi deo:

Λουκιανός:
αὐτοί τε οὖν ἤδη συνεληλύθατε, ὅ τι περ ὄφελος ἐξ ἑκάστης πόλεως, αὐτὸ δὴ τὸ κεφάλαιον ἁπάντων Μακεδόνων, καὶ ὑποδέχεται πόλις ἡ ἀρίστη οὖσα οὐ κατὰ Πίσαν μὰ Δί᾽ οὐδὲ τὴν κεῖθι στενοχωρίαν καὶ σκηνὰς καὶ καλύβας καὶ πνῖγος, οἵ τε αὖ πανηγυρισταὶ οὐ συρφετώδης ὄχλος, ἀθλητῶν μᾶλλον φιλοθεάμονες, ἐν παρέργῳ οἱ πολλοὶ τὸν Ἡρόδοτον τιθέμενοι, ἀλλὰ ῥητόρων τε καὶ συγγραφέων καὶ σοφιστῶν οἱ δοκιμώτατοι, ὅσον οὐ μικρὸν ἤδη, μὴ τοὐμὸν παρὰ πολὺ ἐνδεέστερον φαίνηται τῶν Ὀλυμπίων. ἀλλ᾽ ἢν μὲν ὑμεῖς Πολυδάμαντι ἢ Γλαύκῳ ἢ Μίλωνι παραθεωρῆτέ με, κομιδῇ ὑμῖν δόξω θρασὺς ἄνθρωπος εἶναι, ἢν δὲ πολὺ ἐκείνων ἀπαγαγόντες τὴν μνήμην ἐπ᾽ ἐμαυτοῦ μόνου ἀποδύσαντες ἴδητε, τάχ᾽ ἂν οὐ πάνυ μαστιγώσιμος ὑμῖν δόξαιμι: ὡς ἔν γε τηλικούτῳ σταδίῳ ἱκανὸν ἐμοὶ γοῦν καὶ τοῦτο.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0514:section=8

Lucian:
And now here are you met together, the élite of every city, the true soul of Macedonia; the town which lodges you is the chief of all, little enough resembling Pisa, with its crowding, its tents and hovels and stifling heat; there is as great a difference between this audience and that promiscuous crowd, mainly intent upon mere athletics, and thinking of Herodotus only as a stop-gap; here we have orators, historians, professors, the first in each kind--that is much in itself; my arena, it seems, need not suffer from comparison with Olympia. And though, if you insist on matching me with the Polydamases, Glaucuses, and Milos of literature, you must think me a very presumptuous person, it is open to you on the other hand to put them out of your thoughts altogether; and if you strip and examine me independently, you may decide that at least I need not be whipped. Considering the nature of the contest, I may well be satisfied with that measure of success.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/wl2/wl206.htm

Lukijan.jpg


P. S. Mala zanimacija sa strane...Lukijan je bio baš pravi car. On je rodonačelnik žanra naučne fantastike. :kez: Delo je nazvao Prava istorija. Ko hoće da je pročita može ovde u celini: https://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/wl2/wl212.htm Apsolutno genijalno. Svemirski brodovi, kolonizacija, veštačke atmosfere, skafanderi, vanzemaljci i međuplanetarno ratovanje pre skoro 18 vekova. Klasični svet stvarno je bio neverovatan! Evo scene sa borbi junaka protiv džinovskih paukova na Mesecu:

Moon.jpg
 
Poslednja izmena:
Idemo dalje, srpska antička reč broj 18.

Pretpostavljam da su Grci groktajući Srbi; oni koji grokću, pa zato što su neradnici treba im naplatiti veće troškove. Arbanasi su arbeit-Srbi; arbajteri. Dakle Srbi-doseljenici koji su iz Nemačke došli. Iza Arbanasa se zapravo verovatno kriju Sasi (Srbi iz Nemačke). Bugari su vulgarni Srbi; prostaci. Mnogo psuju pa zato i oni plaćaju više. Srblji nose ime po obući, to su robovi Srba; otrovi, najniži sloj stanovništva od kojih svaki ima svog vlasnika Srbina.
Jesam li dobro razumeo?

Iz kojeg jezika potiče naziv Graecus (Grk)?
800px-Aristotle_Altemps_Inv8575.jpg

Greek Look up Greek at Dictionary.com
O.E. Crecas (pl.), early Germanic borrowing from L. Graeci "the Hellenes," from Gk. Grakoi. Aristotle, who was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellenes ("Meteorologica" I.xiv) wrote that it was the name originally used by Illyrians for the Dorians in Epirus, from Graii, native name of the people of Epirus. But a modern theory (put forth by German classical historian Georg Busolt, 1850-1920), derives it from Graikhos "inhabitant of Graia" (lit. "gray"), a town on the coast of Boeotia, which was the name given by the Romans to all Greeks, originally to the Greek colonists from Graia who helped found Cumae (9c. B.C.E.), the important city in southern Italy where the Latins first encountered Greeks. It was reborrowed in this general sense by the Greeks. The Germanic languages originally borrowed the word with an initial -k- sound (cf. O.H.G. Chrech, Goth. Kreks), which probably was their initial sound closest to the Latin -g- at the time; the word was later refashioned. Meaning "unintelligible speech, gibberish" is from c.1600. Meaning "Greek letter fraternity member" is student slang, 1900. The Turkish name for the country is Yunanistan, lit. "Land of the Ionians." Ionia also yielded the name for the country in Arabic and Hindi (Yunan). Greek gift is from "Æneid," II.49: "timeo Danaos et dona ferentes." It was subtle of God to learn Greek when he wished to become an author -- and not to learn it better. [Nietzsche, "Beyond Good and Evil," 1886]

prasl. *gurkljanъ (bug. gàrkljan), lit. gurklys: grlo

Aristotel, bato, (384 BC – 322 BC). :kafa:

Sloveni slove, Nemci nemče, Grkljani grkljaju...
 
Evo pojma o kojem diskutujemo i u čuvenoj Argonautici; III st. pre naše ere, Apolonije sa Rodosa.

Apolonije.PNG


Ἀπολλώνιος Ῥόδιος:
Μαινάλῳ ἔν ποτέ οἱ ξεινήιον ἐγγυάλιξεν, πρόφρων ἀντομένη: περὶ γὰρ μενέαινεν ἕπεσθαι τὴν ὁδόν: ἀλλὰ γὰρ αὐτὸς ἑκὼν ἀπερήτυε κούρην, δεῖσεν δ᾽ ἀργαλέας ἔριδας φιλότητος ἕκητι. βῆ δ᾽ ἴμεναι προτὶ ἄστυ, φαεινῷ ἀστέρι ἶσος, ὅν ῥά τε νηγατέῃσιν ἐεργόμεναι καλύβῃσιν νύμφαι θηήσαντο δόμων ὕπερ ἀντέλλοντα, καί σφισι κυανέοιο δι᾽ ἠέρος ὄμματα θέλγει καλὸν ἐρευθόμενος, γάνυται δέ τε ἠιθέοιο παρθένος ἱμείρουσα μετ᾽ ἀλλοδαποῖσιν ἐόντος ἀνδράσιν, ᾧ καί μιν μνηστὴν κομέουσι τοκῆες: τῷ ἴκελος πρὸ πόληος ἀνὰ στίβον ἤιεν ἥρως.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Apollon.+1.750&fromdoc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0227

Engleski prevod:

Apollonius of Rhodes:
And he went on his way to the city like to a bright star, which maidens, pent up in new-built chambers, behold as it rises above their homes, and through the dark air it charms their eyes with its fair red gleam and the maid rejoices, love-sick for the youth who is far away amid strangers, for whom her parents are keeping her to be his bride; like to that star the hero trod the way to the city. And when they had passed within the gates and the city, the women of the people surged behind them, delighting in the stranger, but he with his eyes fixed on the ground fared straight on, till he reached the glorious palace of Hypsipyle; and when he appeared the maids opened the folding doors, fitted with well-fashioned panels. Here Iphinoe leading him quickly through a fair porch set him upon a shining seat opposite her mistress, but Hypsipyle turned her eyes aside and a blush covered her maiden cheeks, yet for all her modesty she addressed him with crafty words: "Stranger, why stay ye so long outside our towers? for the city is not inhabited by the men, but they, as sojourners, plough the wheat-bearing fields of the Thracian mainland. And I will tell out truly all our evil plight, that ye yourselves too may know it well. When my father Thoas reigned over the citizens, then our folk starting from their homes used to plunder from their ships the dwellings of the Thracians who live opposite, and they brought back hither measureless booty and maidens too. But the counsel of the baneful goddess Cypris was working out its accomplishment, who brought upon them soul destroying infatuation. For they hated their lawful wives, and, yielding to their own mad folly, drove them from their homes; and they took to their beds the captives of their spear, cruel ones. Long in truth we endured it, if haply again, though late, they might change their purpose, but ever the bitter woe grew, twofold. And the lawful children were being dishonoured in their halls, and a bastard race was rising. And thus unmarried maidens and widowed mothers too wandered uncared for through the city; no father heeded his daughter ever so little even though he should see her done to death before his eyes at the hands of an insolent step-dame, nor did sons, as before, defend their mother against unseemly outrage; nor did brothers care at heart for their sister. But in their homes, in the dance, in the assembly and the banquet all their thought was only for their captive maidens; until some god put desperate courage in our hearts no more to receive our lords on their return from Thrace within our towers so that they might either heed the right or might depart and begone elsewhither, they and their captives. So they begged of us all the male children that were left in the city and went back to where even now they dwell on the snowy tilths of Thrace. Do ye therefore stay and settle with us; and shouldst thou desire to dwell here, and this finds favour with thee, assuredly thou shalt have the prerogative of my father Thoas; and I deem that thou wilt not scorn our land at all; for it is deepsoiled beyond all other islands that lie in the Aegaean sea. But come now, return to the ship and relate my words to thy comrades, and stay not outside our city."

https://www.theoi.com/Text/ApolloniusRhodius1.html

Apol.jpg


Šta je bre ovo...ovo je malčice drugačija forma reči... :think:
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ima jedan rad koji deluje zanimljivo baš na ovu temu...ali je na portugalskom, tako da se stvarno ne snalazim. Ko pripomogne, :respekt:. Reč je o analizi jednog Vergilijevog dela (elegija Krčmarica); pravi se osvrt i na Apolonijevu Argonautiku:

Conforme apontado, Copa possui um elevado número de grecismos, em uma proporção sem paralelo na literatura latina. Essa característica não foi mantida na tradução, mas a atmosfera estrangeira passada pelo poema de qualquer modo se mantém, pelo menos em parte, pois os primeiros versos deixam clara a presença de uma vestimenta grega na personagem que intitula o poema. Alguns termos antigos não foram atualizados por possíveis correspondentes atuais, de modo que há também na leitura da tradução um afastamento temporal, sem buscar identificar a taberna de uma Roma antiga com algo moderno. Assim, utilizamos o termo “calibita”, não dicionarizado, para traduzir calybita (v. 25), nome dado a sacerdotes de Cibele, que justamente tinham o costume de viajar carregando em burros todos os seus pertences.

Esse termo é um hapax legomenon, o que nos leva a outra questão discutida nos comentários, mas que parece não ser tão significativa e sim de certo modo conectada à questão de grecismos. Além de calybita, temos outras duas ocorrências de hapax legomena: o uso de caseolus (v. 17), diminutivo de caseus (“queijo”); e calyba (v. 7), termo um pouco mais difícil de ser definido.

Calyba vem do termo grego καλύβη (segundo Liddell e Scott (1953), “hut, cabin”, “bridal bower”, “sleeping-tent on roof of house”). Torrinha (1945) o traduz como “ramada”, “latada”, “barraca”, em parte conforme a primeira acepção do OLD. O termo é assim utilizado por Teócrito, no Idílio 21 – um idílio que não é pastoril, retratando a vida de dois pescadores simples, que moram numa precária cabana (v. 7 e 18). Esse uso em Teócrito poderia justificar a escolha do autor de Copa, que claramente não se importa em usar grecismos. A presença de uma cabana no jardim não seria impossível.

No entanto, Franzoi (1988, p. 68) aponta para o uso da palavra grega em Apolônio de Rodes, dentro de uma comparação: ὅν ῥά τε νηγατέῃσιν ἐεργόμεναι καλύβῃσιν / νύμφαι θηήσαντο (“o levantar da qual as jovens fechadas nos novos quartos olham”, Argonáuticas 1, v. 775-776). Aqui, vemos um uso que corresponde à segunda acepção do OLD, um quarto em que a jovem noiva é mantida pelos pais até que seu noivo retorne. Os dois conceitos (cabana/refúgio, talvez feito por vegetais, e um quarto que jovens noivas usariam) parecem se encaixar no cenário de Copa, que retrata um ambiente cheio de plantas e que, ao mesmo tempo, sugere a presença de mulheres que poderiam entreter convidados, conforme veremos no decorrer de nossa análise.


https://acervodigital.ufpr.br/bitstream/handle/1884/60842/R - D - MARINA CAVICHIOLO GROCHOCKI.pdf
 
Не, него твоја тврдња не одговара фонетски, како би то Скок рекао. То што не умеш схватити аргументацију само још више говори о том колико не познајеш историју словенских језика. А немој да почињемо о непостојању аргументације, јер се твоја своди само на сазвучје речи, од чега се не успеваш помаћи већ више од десет година. :mazi:
 

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