Хетити

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Malo sam se pogubio u raspravi,jeste ranije smo pricali o tome,znaci imamo paralelu Isavrijanci-Hetiti-Luvijci i Kurdi-Asirci-Medjani,ili tako nesto.
Da budem iskren ja sam te Medjane smatrao za naslednike Akadjana,nemam pojma zasto.

Možda zbog đani?

Plavo je Asirija; istočno, bliže Ekbetane, nalazi se Medija...

P. S. Izbaci Asirce iz te kombinacije, oni su ti uljez među tim indoevropskim narodima. Asirci su Akađani - odnosno, Semiti.
Ne mogu se Asirci dovesti u etnolingvističku vezu sa bilo drevnim Međanima, bilo modernim Kurdima.

 

[D-1]

Ponavljam,

bilo bi dobro ukoliko neko raspolaze sa nekom informacijom, jos bolje ukoliko ima uvid u bilo kakav hetitski recnik.

 

[D U K Lj A N I N]

Prva indoevropska imperija na prostoru Male Azije

Hetsko carstvo

O narodu koji je naseljavao današnju teritoriju Turske nije se znalo ništa do velikih arheoloških otkrića u prošlom veku

Dok se o nekim staroistočnim narodima zna mnogo, većina ljudi o Hetima (ili Hetitima) ne zna gotovo ništa. Do početka prošlog veka za njih se nije ni znalo da li su zaista postojali. Ipak, taj indoevropski narod koji je naselio Malu Aziju početkom drugog milenijuma pre Hrista stvorio je veoma moćno carstvo koje uzdrmalo čak i državu faraona.
U trenutku naseljavanja Male Azije Heti su još živeli podeljeni po plemenima, a vremenom vođa najjačeg plemena Anita, sin Puhtane, preuzima potpunu vlast i stvara prvu državu na tom prostoru sa prestonicom u gradu Nesi. Vremenom ta država jača, a prestonica se premešta u Hatušaš. Tako već oko 1640. godine pre Hrista, vladar Tabarna smatra svoju državu jednakom Vavilonskom carstvu, a njegov sin Muršiliš oko 1595. godine osvaja sam Vavilon, najveći i najbogatiji grad tog doba.
Posle perioda opadanja, u doba cara Šupiuliulme (1320 - 1346), država Heta se oporavlja. Taj vladar uspeva da ojača vojsku i da osvoji ne samo celu Malu Aziju, već i oblasti oko Eufrata. Kao dobar diplomata, on koristi sukob između Mitana i Asirije i uspeva da bez borbe pridobije mnoge okolne kneževine i priključi ih svojoj državi. Na taj način on osvaja veliku teritoriju na istoku, a onda napada i Egipat. Faraonima oduzima zemlju Amuru, a zatim i znatan deo Sirije.

„Čuo sam da Heti predaju zemlje ognju. Nekoliko puta pisao sam o tome, ali nisam dobio odgovor. Osvojene su sve oblasti faraona, moga gospodara, ali se moj gospodar drži po strani od njih“, piše Rib-Adi, upravljač grada Biblosa, faraonu koji nema odgovor na hetsku vojnu moć i vojsku koja prodire čak i do Palestine.
Šupiuliulma počinje i odlučnu borbu protiv države Mitani. Iako u borbama protiv njih prvi put doživljava niz vojničkih poraza, on uspeva da, koristeći se unutrašnjim nemirima, oslabi neprijatelja. Posle godina političkih borbi hetska vojska upada na teritoriju države Mitani i ruši njenu prestonicu Vasugani.
Po Šupiuliulminoj smrti, sa Pontiskih planina spuštaju se varvarska gazgejska plemena koja su poljuljala hetsku vlast, ali je nisu skršila.
Krajem 14. i početkom 13. veka pre Hrista Heti se oporavljaju i prodiru na jug gde dolaze u sukob sa Egiptom. NJihova borba za vlast u Siriji postaje sve upornija i pod vlašću Muvatala (1320 - 1294) Heti napreduju. U bici kod Kadeša 1294. godine pre Hrista sukobljavaju se vojske Muvatala i faraona Ramzesa II. Iako je bitka, jedna od najvećih u Starom veku, završena bez pobednika, nekoliko meseci kasnije umire hetski car i u njegovom carstvu izbijaju veliki neredi. To Egipćani koriste i vraćaju pod svoju vlast velike delove teritorije. Ipak, novi hetski vladar Hatušiliš III uspostavlja red i sa Ramzesom potpisuje mirovni sporazum o podeli interesnih sfera. Taj dokument kojim su se obavezali da će štititi jedan drugog značajan je kao prvi poznati dokument tog tipa u istoriji.
Po Hatušilišovoj smrti dolazi do naglog opadanja Heta, a zbog dolaska nove velike pretnje koja je uzdrmala tadašnji svet - Naroda sa mora. S druge strane, na istoku se pojavljuje i novo, veoma moćno Asirsko carstvo kojem hetska država nije mogla da se suprotstavi.

BITKA KOD KADEŠA

Bitka koja se dogodila 1296. godine pre Hrista kod Kadeša u Siriji jedna je od najvećih borbi u Starom veku, a zanimljiva je i prema tome što je prva bitka koju je moguće rekonstruisati.
Ramzes II skupio je 20.000 vojnika i podelio ih u četiri armije, a svaka od njih je ka Kadešu išla jedna iza druge nekoliko kilometara. Isti broj vojnika sakupio je i Muvatal, a podelio je ih na pešadiju i konjicu. Ratnim lukavstvom on je uspeo da porazi dve Ramzesove armije iz kojih se taj faraon izvukao samo pukom srećom. Ipak, dok su Heti slavili i kupili vojni plen, treća i četvrta egipatska armija napale su ih. Bez obzira na iznenađenje, bitka je završena bez pobednika, a tokom noći Ramzes se povukao sa svojim armijama i vratio u Egipat.


Autor:

Andrija Ivanović

http://www.glas-javnosti.rs/clanak/saznanja/glas-javnosti-06-07-2008/hetsko-carstvo

 

[gost 305033]

@D-1: http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/hitt.htm

 

[Лекизан]

Hetiti, bitka kod Kadeša
Još za faraona Setija I. i hetitskog kralja Muršilija II., zbog sukoba interesa, na hetitsko – egipatskim granicama dolazilo je do čestih sukoba, a njihovi sinovi Ramzes II. i Muvatali vode odlučnu bitku koja završava neodlučeno i rezultira ugovorom o vječnom miru i prijateljstvu.
Bitka kod Kadeša predstavljala je zadnje suočavanje Egipćana i Hetita, koji su dominirali Bliskim istokom 300 do 400 godina. Za Egipat je to bio vrhunac nastojanja da se vrati prevlast nad Sirijom, koja je u 15. st. pr. Kr. bila egipatska provincija.[1] Još od vremena Šupilulijuminih osvajanja, Hetiti su smatrali gradove Amuru i Kadeš za svojim vlasništvom. No, faraoni 19. dinastije su htjeli ponovno zavladati Sirijom i otjerati Hetite što sjevernije. Uspješnom vojnom kampanjom Setija I. (1318.-1304.) Amuru prekida ugovor o poslušnosti s Hetitima, a Egipćani stižu do Kadeša, te je tako samo dio Sirije ostao pod hetitskom vlašću.[2] Muvatali je tada kratko bio na vlasti, no ipak je brzo odreagirao i poslao Ramzesu II. poruku o poslušnosti Hetita faraonima, iako je zapravo imao drugačije planove: okupljao je vojsku i spremao se za rat. Kada se Ramzes II., u svojim ratovanjima, približio Bejrutu i Biblosu, Muvatali je prihvatio izazov.[3] Ramzes II., napadač, okupio je vojsku od 20 000 ljudi (podijeljenih na 4 zbora nazvanih po bogovima – Amon, Ra, Ptah i Suteh) te je u proljeće 1296. (navode se i 1294. godina te 1286./5. i 1300.; bitka se vodila u petoj godini vladanja Ramzesa II.[4]) godine prije Krista napao Hetite s namjerom da zaustavi njihovu ekspanziju. Cilj mu je bio najveća hetitska tvrđava u Siriji – Kadeš. Kao pomoćnike, osim naroda Šerden, Ramzes II. je imao i Libijce (iz plemena Kehek i Mašuaš), te Nubijce – svi su najvjerojatnije bili zarobljenici, sada su u službi Ramzesa II.[5] Muvatali je također, sklapanjem ratnih saveza s kraljevima i knezovima Arzave, Naharine, Karkemiša, Halpe i Kadeša i unajmljivanjem plaćenika, uspio skupiti vojsku od 20 000 ljudi (od kojih samo deset tisuća pješaka, ostalih deset tisuća su bile prateće trupe)[6], čiju su okosnicu činila tročlana bojna kola (vozač, strijelac i štitonoša, dok su egipatska bojna kola bila dvočlana[7]). Uobičajeno naoružanje egipatskih pješaka (u vojsci je bilo i oko 200 bojnih kola[8]) su bile sjekire, mačevi, koplja i lukovi.[9] Ramzes II. je sâm napravio neke preinake u vojsci da bi se ubrzao napad: svaka divizija vojnika se sastojala od tri korpusa pješaštva i odreda bojnih kola; ukupno pet tisuća ljudi po diviziji, od kojih dvije tisuće Egipćana i tri tisuće stranaca. Iako je broj bojnih kola bio mnogo manji nego hetitski (kojih je bilo tri i po tisuće[10]), odlikovali su se velikom moblinošću i okretnošću. Prednost egipatske vojske je bila i homogenost.[11] Hetitska vojska je najvjerojatnije bila profesionalna (pogotovo bojna kola), a kralj je vjerojatno vojne usluge plaćao u zemlji. Pješaštvo je također tvorilo stalnu vojsku, a postojala je i kraljeva osobna straža. Vojnici su prolazili kroz ceremoniju polaganja zakletve vjernosti.[12]
http://dehna.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/hetiti-bitka-kod-kadesa/

 

[Ahil71]

"Biblija pouzdano tvrdi da su oni u devetom veku pre Hrista još uvek bili na vrhuncu svoje moći. Sirijci koji su opkolili Samariju iznenada su pobegli „jer Gospod učini te se u okolu Sirskom ču lupa kola i konja i velike vojske, te rekoše jedan drugome: eto car je Izrailjev najmio na nas careve Hetejske i careve Misirske da udare na nas“ (2. O carevima 7,6)."
http://www.lifeconnect.rs/equilibrium/posts/hetiti-1084

 

[dublin]

U Siriji i Kapadokiji je od vajkada bilo poznato da postoje Leukosiri ( Beli Siri) koji su došli iz Evrope posle potopa ( neki veruju posle trojanskog rata, ali je manja verovatnoca jer su već dolazili odande u pomoć Trojancima), neki ( Strabo) kažu da su to Eneti / Veneti, i Xantosiri ( Crni ) , odnosno Semiti.

ovo moze da vas zanima

troja (?) u 2 milenijumu pne u panoniji? najveca tvrdjava iz bronzanog doba nadjena na obodu okeanosa potamosa (panonskog jezera - dunava) koje je verovali ili ne jos uvek postojalo u bronzano doba...

Was the great (biblical) flood one of the things that ended this great old civilization in central Europe and forced it to scatter around the world? If you are talking to dendrochronologist and geologists you will notice that what they have to say sounds more and more biblical every day. It seems that in last 10000 years we had not one but several catastrophic weather events which probably changed the course of history in Europe and the rest of the world.



http://geolib.geo.auth.gr/digeo/index.php/sasg/article/viewFile/7588/7345





http://www.scribd.com/doc/12908242/...istocene-Causes-and-ConsequencesBelgrade-2006

Here are few more documents that talk about the pannonian lake (sea):

http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/jart/prj3...arzhauser/2004/Harzhauser_Mandic_2004_PPP.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/124924264...onian-Basin-a-New-Location-of-Atlantis-Island

http://www.geologicacarpathica.sk/special/R/Rakic_etal.pdf

What these guys are saying is that Danube was real Okeanos Potamos in historical times and certainly during Lepenski vir, Vinca time. Central Danubian plane contained a shallow inland fresh water lake (sea). Danube flew into this sea in the north west and flew out of it in the south east. The surface of this lake (sea) fluctuated within last 12000 years. That fluctuation was probably gradual most of the time. But during these extreme weather events the change in the panonian sea (okeanos) dept and surface area was probably sudden and catastrophic and would spell the end to civilizations flourishing on its shores like Lepenski vir or Vinca.

The lake was maintained by an obstruction in the area of the Djerdap gorge called Mali Kazan in Serbian or Cazanele Mici in Romanian. The word Kazan means Cauldron and perfectly describes the shape of the gorge in that area. Today the water level in the Kazan area is quite high due to the hydro electric power plant dam further down the river which raised the water level in the gorge. But before the dam was built, this area was notorious for rocks sticking out of the water, its weirs and rapids. Locals made their money working as pilots on ships navigating them through the dangerous shallow waters of the gorge. This rocky obstruction regularly caused ice buildup in the gorge to the point of an ice dam forming across the gorge and causing major flooding in the area before the gorge. I remember when i was a kid watching military airplanes bombing the ice dam in the kazan area to release the blocked up water from Danube river. What could have caused the rock obstruction? A major earthquake is my bet. Let's see if we can find one that could potentially do it:



http://www.limnogeology.ethz.ch/SchnellmannGeology.pdf


So the four prehistoric major earthquakes happened around 410 bc, 2670 bc, 11,900 bc, and 12,510 bc. These are just Earhquakes that were close enough to the lake Lucerne and were able to affect its banks. There must have been lots more further east which were able to affect the Djerdap gorge and cause collaps of its sides and creation of the rock obstruction which we see even today.

That a major catastrophic earthquake indeed could happen in the Balkans at the end of the 6th millennium bc can be seen from this study on distribution of nephrite artifacts in the Balkans:



http://www.mgu.bg/annual/public_html/2005/bg/svityk1/dokladi_pdf/Statia15.pdf

So at the end of the 6th millennium bc something, like a big earthquake could have covered the only known nephrite mine in Europe and effectively ended the nephrite civilization. The same earthquake could have created the Djerdap gorge rock obstruction. All that we need to create a new pannonian sea is a major weather event like a continuous prolonged rain that would exceed the draining power of the Danubian basin and cause major flooding in the upper and middle Danubian basin. What do you need to build a dam across the river and create a big lake behind it? You need a narrow gorge (Djerdap), lots of trees and mud and silt and clay. Something like a giant beaver dam. You don't need beavers or people to make one. All you need is a rock obstruction, lots of giant pannonian oak trees, some over 50 meters tall and 50 meters in crown diameter, uprooted and carried into a narrow space of djerdap gorge together with pile of silt, clay and sand. The trees would get entangled in the rocks and would quickly form a sieve made of branches and leaves which would start accumulating soil deposits and smaller wood debris. The dam could grow rapidly in thickness and in height until it would completely block the river. The level of water behind the dam would rise as more and more material sediments behind the barrier and the dam grows in thickness and height. Behind the dam more and more water would accumulate until all the land behind the barrier would be flooded to the level of the barrier. And the Pannonian sea would rise again.

Interestingly the Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus Strait. But the deluge could also have come from bursting of the mud dam in the Iron Gate and emptying of the pannonian lake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

Here is the Iron Gate gorge now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Gates

Here are pictures of Iron Gate gorge as it looked like before 1860 when many of the rocks were cleared to enable river navigation. It is clear from these pictures that the creation of the major weather event dam was perfectly possible. The Iron Gate dam could have been created and destroyed in two major earthquakes. I remember many years ago a big earthquake in Montenegro. Whole villages sunk into the sea. Mountain sides cracked and crumbled into the sea. So the original rock barrier could have been created by one earthquake collapsing the sides of the gorge into the river. These rocks could have been sticking out of the water like a comb allowing the accumulation of the debris during the fallowing major weather event. Then the barrier could have been destroyed by another earthquake which would crumble it to bits or just sink it?

http://alexisphoenix.org/sipcanal.php

I believe that this iron gate dam creation and destruction is exactly what happened and not once. To find out when these events could have occurred, we need to locate the major weather events of the past.

Minoan eruption and consequent weather changes




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535–536

In the book "The Secrets of the Irish Landscape" we read that according to the dendrochronological research done in Ireland on Irish bog Oaks, during the period between 2354 bc and 2345 bc the oaks completely stopped growing and showed bark changes which indicate that they were submerged in water. It seems that it started to rain and it didn't stop for 10 years. This caused complete failure and disappearance of the existing stone age culture due to crop failure. After the rain stopped we see the old culture being replaced by the beaker culture in a sharp artifact cut. Interestingly in the annals of four masters we find this:



http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100005A/



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

I am not saying that the earth was created at 4000 bc. But maybe some "world" or civilization did get created. The scattering of the Vinca people did happen in the 4th millennium bc. And if we know that Gea, mother earth was Vinca, than maybe the earth was Vinca? Anyway the reason why i am mentioning Ussher chronology is that in his list of dates the date for the biblical flood to 2348 bc, right in the middle of the above major weather event.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v1/n1/world-born-4004-bc

But the bible and the Irish are not the only ones to record this event. In Chinese records we read that after there were 9 years of rain after 2346 bc.

Mayans talk about big floods and rain in 236o.

Something major weather wise has happened in the middle of the 3rd millennium bc which could have caused either creation or more likely bursting of the Iron Gate dam and another major deluge. Were there previous events like this one? Probably if we judge it by the Black sea data.

I think this requires a lot more research and combining of geological, archaeological and historical data in order to get the correct dating for the sequence of events surrounding the pannonian sea and gea story. But there is lots of data out there and i hope someone takes it up on himself to do it. This is enough on this from me for now.

Have fun




ps: genetski i kulturni kontinuitet moze da postoji i ako jezicki prestane. primer "siptari" sa kosova koji su sacuvali mnoge srpske obicaje i gene ali su promenili jezik. primer istocni nemci, primer madjari...

 

[dublin]

Evo zasto ja govorim o panonskom moru:

The reason why i am talking about pannonian sea (lake) is this:

http://shebtiw.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/at2a.jpg
http://shebtiw.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/at0.jpg

Anyone has any idea what this is? It is huge.

and particularly this:

Cornes¸ti-Iarcuri — a (the biggest) Bronze Age town in the Romanian Banat?

Iarcuri is 5000 acres and Celtic standards say there were 500,000 people within its wall. It's 25% bigger than Rome. It's 45 times bigger than Troy in turkey.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=45.93217,21.240864&spn=0.067934,0.11055&t=h&z=13
http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/9oh73hl5ts1ogd5r/images/3-a275b0ddb2.jpg


This is the eviction time line.

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JdSFWDQJiuw/ThH104ArFQI/AAAAAAAAk4w/d6eY4bhEBko/s576/cornesti.gif


This is the document about this ancient city.

http://www.academia.edu/1255464/Cornesti-Iarcuri_a_Bronze_Age_town_in_the_Romanian_Banat

How many people here have heard of it? I only heard of it two weeks ago, but I expected these great cities to be there based on my linguistic and mythological research. Everything was pointing to exactly this place to be the birth place of Apollo and it seems that it is. I will write more about Apollo later.

For now just a question: could this be the original Troy as the person who sent me the link to this document suspects?

These are the questions he is asking:

Eviction date seems to be the Trojan war and sea people migration in one.

What does "mythology" say about Troy?

Troy was built on virgin land just 5 generations before its fall.
There should be an ancient, huge and famous circular temple of Apollo nearby.
The city is supposed to be very large and quite a distance from the beach.
The text does say heaped up walls not stone.
The Greek camp should be very near the Trojan port and there should be a mound.
It should be on Okeanos (Danube) and a drying up part of Okeanos at that.

Iron was invented in south of Serbia in 1400 bc. Is this what caused the end of Troy? Balkan tribes with iron swords? If so, where should we look for Heracles? Serbia? Dinaric or Carpathian mountains? And if so who were the sons of Heracles, the ultimate patriarchal tribe? Did you know that in Montenegro they swear by saying "***** ti oca" which means "i f**k your father" as the worst curse you can imagine?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles

Is this Troy? Right in the area which produced the legend of king Trojan? And were Troyans speaking proto Irish as we saw from the "tre" word group?

tré- triad - trojstvo
tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
treabhcas - tribe - pleme
treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
treabh - plough - plug
treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
trea- spear - koplje
trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is a warrior.
treas- battle - bitka
treasair - conquer - osvojiti
treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
triath - lord, prince - gospodar, prince

 

[dublin]

a evo i price o caru trojanu i narodu koji se zove mushki

The title of this post was Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears. We have seen long beards, long blades and long spears. What about long ears? Let’s go back to Labraid Loingsech.




This is a very interesting story and quite unusual. Let’s see if we can find similar legends anywhere else:
1. Midas(Greece).
2. Tarkasnawa (luw."ass") - also known as the false reading Tarkondemos-was a king of the Hittite vassal state Mira in the west of present-day Turkey. He probably reigned in the time of the Great King Tudhalija IV in the 13 th Century BC

 

[Сребрена]

Iz vremena neolitskog

Arheološko nalazište Gobekli Tepe,..... Prema tvrdnjama Nemačkog arheologa Klausa Šmitu kamenje Gobekli Tepea je mesto na kome je počeo ljudski napredak.
Šmit je otkrio veliki hram .... izgrađen pre 11.500 godina, sedam hiljada godina pre velike piramide, a više od šest hiljada godina pre Stounhedža.

http://www.superodmor.rs/magazin/vesti/197901/prepravljanje-istorije--gobekli-tepe-?ref=blicside

http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/archaeology/photos/gobekli-tepe/

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

"Biblija pouzdano tvrdi da su oni u devetom veku pre Hrista još uvek bili na vrhuncu svoje moći. Sirijci koji su opkolili Samariju iznenada su pobegli „jer Gospod učini te se u okolu Sirskom ču lupa kola i konja i velike vojske, te rekoše jedan drugome: eto car je Izrailjev najmio na nas careve Hetejske i careve Misirske da udare na nas“ (2. O carevima 7,6)."
http://www.lifeconnect.rs/equilibrium/posts/hetiti-1084

Zašto je Samarija podebljana?

 

[Ahil71]

Zašto je Samarija podebljana?

Давно било. Сада ни сам нисам сигуран.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Давно било. Сада ни сам нисам сигуран.

Je li nije možda to što 'Samarija' zvuči slično kao 'Srbija'?

 

[Ahil71]

Je li nije možda to što 'Samarija' zvuči slično kao 'Srbija'?

Пре са обожавањем Дагона.

 

[Лекизан]

Пре са обожавањем Дагона.

Комшија какве везе Дагон има са Самаријом?

 

[Ahil71]

Комшија какве везе Дагон има са Самаријом?

Нисам баш ушао у суштину, али био је присутан на том простору.
"In the Tanakh (also referred to as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible), Dagon is particularly the god of the Philistines with temples at Beth-dagon in the tribe of Asher (Joshua 19.27), in Gaza (Judges 16.23, which tells soon after how the temple is destroyed by Samson as his last act). Another temple, in Ashdod was mentioned in 1 Samuel 5.2–7 and again as late as 1 Maccabees 10.83;11.4. King Saul's head was displayed in a temple of Dagon.[4] There was also a second place known as Beth-Dagon in Judah (Joshua 15.41). Josephus (Antiquities 12.8.1; War 1.2.3) mentions a place named Dagon above Jericho. Jerome mentions Caferdago between Diospolis and Jamnia. There is also a modern Beit Dejan south-east of Nablus. Some of these toponyms may have to do with grain rather than the god.
The account in 1 Samuel 5.2–7 relates how the ark of Yahweh was captured by the Philistines and taken to Dagon's temple in Ashdod. The following morning they found the image of Dagon lying prostrate before the ark. They set the image upright, but again on the morning of the following day they found it prostrate before the ark, but this time with head and hands severed, lying on the miptān translated as "threshold" or "podium". The account continues with the puzzling words raq dāgôn nišʾar ʿālāyw, which means literally "only Dagon was left to him." (The Septuagint, Peshitta, and Targums render "Dagon" here as "trunk of Dagon" or "body of Dagon", presumably referring to the lower part of his image.) Thereafter we are told that neither the priests or anyone ever steps on the miptān of Dagon in Ashdod "unto this day". This story is depicted on the frescoes of the Dura-Europos synagogue as the opposite to a depiction of the High Priest Aaron and the Temple of Solomon."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine
Имамо и Критске избеглице.
Да будем искрен, испровоцирали су ме неки топними.
Критске избеглице, су живеле и на Србици у Ликији.
Овде се помиње и Српска Гора и језеро. Има ли свве то неке везе? Још не знам. Данас ту живе семитски народи.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Kakve kritske izbjeglice?

 

[gost 305033]

Verovatno Samarija=Sarmatija=Sarbatija=Srbadija

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Нисам баш ушао у суштину, али био је присутан на том простору.
"In the Tanakh (also referred to as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible), Dagon is particularly the god of the Philistines with temples at Beth-dagon in the tribe of Asher (Joshua 19.27), in Gaza (Judges 16.23, which tells soon after how the temple is destroyed by Samson as his last act). Another temple, in Ashdod was mentioned in 1 Samuel 5.2–7 and again as late as 1 Maccabees 10.83;11.4. King Saul's head was displayed in a temple of Dagon.[4] There was also a second place known as Beth-Dagon in Judah (Joshua 15.41). Josephus (Antiquities 12.8.1; War 1.2.3) mentions a place named Dagon above Jericho. Jerome mentions Caferdago between Diospolis and Jamnia. There is also a modern Beit Dejan south-east of Nablus. Some of these toponyms may have to do with grain rather than the god.
The account in 1 Samuel 5.2–7 relates how the ark of Yahweh was captured by the Philistines and taken to Dagon's temple in Ashdod. The following morning they found the image of Dagon lying prostrate before the ark. They set the image upright, but again on the morning of the following day they found it prostrate before the ark, but this time with head and hands severed, lying on the miptān translated as "threshold" or "podium". The account continues with the puzzling words raq dāgôn nišʾar ʿālāyw, which means literally "only Dagon was left to him." (The Septuagint, Peshitta, and Targums render "Dagon" here as "trunk of Dagon" or "body of Dagon", presumably referring to the lower part of his image.) Thereafter we are told that neither the priests or anyone ever steps on the miptān of Dagon in Ashdod "unto this day". This story is depicted on the frescoes of the Dura-Europos synagogue as the opposite to a depiction of the High Priest Aaron and the Temple of Solomon."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine
Имамо и Критске избеглице.
Да будем искрен, испровоцирали су ме неки топними.
Критске избеглице, су живеле и на Србици у Ликији.
Овде се помиње и Српска Гора и језеро. Има ли свве то неке везе? Још не знам. Данас ту живе семитски народи.

Opet si dosta nejasan i nedorečen...

 

[Ahil71]

Рекох, нисам баш ушао у суштину. Када нађем време, вратићу се овој теми.

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Рекох, нисам баш ушао у суштину. Када нађем време, вратићу се овој теми.

A zašto ne pišeš u Notepad ili napraviš neki Word fajl i tamo kucaš kada si tako 'u fazi izrade'; ovako samo zbuniš ljude ovdje. Kada se nešto kaže, očekuje se da se nešto doista i kaže ili ispada da se samo čitaoci prže.

Ovo me je podsjetilo na one iskopine koje si teatralno postavio, kao da su revolucionarnog značaja i već mjesecima odlažeš da kažeš što si imao na umu. Što li ono reče, da tim arheologa dolazi na jesen i da ćeš tada postaviti to epohalno otkriće na forum?

 

[Ahil71]

Овде сам указао на нешто, по мени недоречено у очекивању да ће се људи који се више баве историјом од мене позабавити том темом. Како нису, позабавићу се сам, али сада ми обавезе то не дозвољавају.
Ископине.
Поставио сам слике, али нисам експерт.
Ради се на ом питању. Има доста дилема.
Обећао ми је и један геолог изаћи, да би био сигуран да нису природне творевине.
Лично, убеђен сам да је у питању нешто од немерљивог значаја, из праисторије, али... Видећемо.

 

[Лекизан]

 

[Сребрена]

Да обновим мало стару добру тему, пошто сам налетела на више занимљивости.
Да почнем од једног Славеновог цитата о граду Неши, у коме Кхети/Хетити говоре нешки језик.
Требало би да је више у духу српског тај израз : нешки од "Неш", као што је нишки од "Ниш", нашки од "Наш" , уместо нешили језик, или нешински.
Освојио га је Питана, и био је битан трговачки центар за Асирију.

А у Неси утврдих град. После (утврђивања) града, ја саградих храм богу олује с небеса и храм богу Сијуу..........Из Не[ше ...] избегох

од 305.стр
https://books.google.rs/books?id=Vi...AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=hittite on euphrate&f=false
Како је то писаније изгледало пре скоро 4 миленијума:
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/anat/hethbs.htm

Интересантно је да су у граду, осим храма , приватних зграда и сл. имали и Музеј
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/KültepeKarte.png

Postoje citati, da, kad su se preselili severno , u Hatušu, taj jezik, donešen iz grada Neše, zvali neškim.
Meni to deluje kao da je bio neki njihov lični jezik (kao kad Goranci govore "naški" okruženi tamnoputim neprijateljima), koji su negovali jer je različit od susednih plemena ,čuvali za sebe, a dozvoljavali da se koriste akadska slova .
Ne verujem ikad iko da objasni kako su se ti stvorili, iz kog pravca?

Grad Neša nalazio se u podnožju vulkanske planine Erdžije (Erciyes), koja prekriva oko 1500 kvadratnih km, pretpostavlja se da pripada starijim vulkanima (poslednji put je eruptirala 6800 pre n.e., koliko se zna) i visoka je 3 916 m.

Pošto je bila uvek prekrivena snegom, Kheti (Hetiti) su je zvali "Harkasos" ili "Harkara"što znači Bela planina . Pretpostavlja se i da su (ljudskom rukom) napravljeni tuneli u samoj planini delo Kheta.Strabon je pisao da se sa vrha te planine ( Erciyes=Argeus=Ἀργαῖος) pružao pogled do Crnog i do Mediteranskog mora.
http://www.cappadociaexclusive.com/geological.html
https://books.google.rs/books?id=6T...v=onepage&q=Erciyes mountain hittites&f=false

Naziv planine Harkara tumači se khetskom rečju hark (*ark)- ḫark-/ḫar- “to have, hold” koja znači "držati, posedovati", i vezana je sa "arkama" -spasonosnim objektima u slučaju velikih poplava))
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...33023&uid=2&uid=3738928&uid=70&uid=4&uid=2129
kao i terminom pogibelji -ḫark-/ḫar- “to perish", kao i (preko Old Frisian erke, arke, Gothic arka, < Latin arca chest, coffer, derivative of arcēre to safeguard) zaštita, kovčeg
http://www.cambridge.org/asia/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9781139153461&ss=ind
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ark

 

[Pumpaj Dinstanović]

Srebrena i o pravcima je bilo riječi. Postoje dvije različite teorije; tradicionalna o seobi sa sjeveroistoka iz kavkaskog pravca, i moderna, o doseljavanju sa sjeverozapada, sa balkanskih strana. U novije vrijeme sve se više stručnjaka naginje ovoj potonjoj, iako ona naravno nailazi na mnoge probleme (a konvencionalna je bila zgodnija pa tako i lakša prihvatiti).