Генетичка генеалогија II

Osnivač Eupedije, Maćiamo Hej; vezano za haplogrupu I2a:

To answer your last question, I never said that I2a was a Slavic haplogroup. It's a Mesolithic European haplogroup. It is I2a1b2a1-CTS10228 that is Slavic, and only that subclade, because that mutation emerged exactly during the Slavic ethnogenesis in Eastern Europe, and it spread to all Slavic-speaking countries with ancient Slavic migrations. Note that this CTS10228 is not found only in the Dinaric Alps, but in all Slavic countries, and that it can be calculated relatively accurately that all people who are I2-CTS10228 descend from a common ancestor who lived only some 2300 years ago. That's why it cannot be Illyrian.

I don't know what were the haplogroups of Illyrians. It wasn't a single haplogroup for sure, but I'd bet they carried some R1b subclade older than P312 and U106 (e.g. L51 or L11), because it was the R1b branch of Indo-Europeans that settled in Southeast Europe during the Bronze Age.

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I did not mean to imply that there were two kinds of Slavs purely based on the haplogroup division between I2a1 and R1a. This would be too simplistic. Proto-Slavs surely carried both R1a (M458 and Z280) and I2a1-L621 (mostly the CTS10228 subclade), as well as various other haplogroups at lower frequency. The southern migration of Slavs fro Ukraine to Romania, the Balkans and the Dinaric Alps almost certainly carried a higher proportion of I2a1-L621 than R1a, due to a founder effect in the source population. But it would be wrong to assume that northern Slavs had the same proportion of R1a to I2a1 as observed today in Poland, Czechia, Slovakia or Belarus. A lot of R1a in these modern populations descends from older R1a migration, mostly from the Corded Ware culture in the Bronze Age, but also later historical Steppe migrations that brought some R1a-Z93 to central Europe. I don't believe there are two kinds of Slavs. There are many more (at least as many as there are Slavic languages and dialects), but all share some ancestry from the same Proto-Slavic population, which carried both R1a and I2a1 lineages.

As for I2a1-L621 in the Dinaric Alps, I once thought too that it descended from the ancient Illyrians. But the analysis of deep clades recently showed that almost all of them belong to the CTS10228 subclade, which according to Yfull.com has a TMRCA of only 2200 years. This means that it can only have a Proto-Slavic origin, and its expansion was extremely fast (only about 700 years to pass from one individual to a high percentage in a whole ethnic group before the Slavic migrations).

Like in the Dinaric Alps, almost all the I2a1 in Romania and in the Balkans belongs to this young Slavic CTS10228 clade. Unless the TMRCA is completely wrong, there is just no way that this I2a1 descends from the Vlachs or any pre-Slavic population. If you remove the Slavic R1a (M458 and Z280) and I2a1-CTS10228 and the Germanic I1, I2a2a-L801 and R1b-U106 from Southeast Europe, you are left mostly with E-M34, E-V13, G2a, J2a1, J2b, R1a-Z93 and R1b (Z2103, L51, U152), as well as some N1a around Serbia and Bosnia. Many of those lineages, especially J2b1, N1a, R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 could have come from Steppe migrations in the early Middle Ages (Khazars, Magyars, Bulgars). At least in terms of Y-DNA, there doesn't seem to be much left of the Roman era and pre-Roman populations of Southeast Europe E-V13, E-M34, G2a, J2a, J2b2, R1b-U152, which could all be of Roman or maybe Alpine Celtic origin. But it's more complicated than that. Some G2a, E-V13 and J2b2 could just as well have come with the Slavic or Germanic migrations, or from any historical Steppe migration. Only deep clades (ideally from a full Y chromosome test) for each individual can determine that.

It is too simplistic to say that R1a is not a Germanic haplogroup. R1a itself appeared over 20,000 years ago. It is important to mention which subclade we are referring to. And while R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 are mostly found in Slavic countries today, R1a-L664 and R1a-Z284 are overwhelmingly Germanic (West Germanic and Scandinavian, respectively). That's just the way it is. That being said, a substantial portion of R1a in East Germanic could be of Slavic origin.

@nonaligned
 
Persida Kolofon Gemischt:
Osnivač Eupedije, Maćiamo Hej; vezano za haplogrupu I2a:

To answer your last question, I never said that I2a was a Slavic haplogroup. It's a Mesolithic European haplogroup. It is I2a1b2a1-CTS10228 that is Slavic, and only that subclade, because that mutation emerged exactly during the Slavic ethnogenesis in Eastern Europe, and it spread to all Slavic-speaking countries with ancient Slavic migrations. Note that this CTS10228 is not found only in the Dinaric Alps, but in all Slavic countries, and that it can be calculated relatively accurately that all people who are I2-CTS10228 descend from a common ancestor who lived only some 2300 years ago. That's why it cannot be Illyrian.

I don't know what were the haplogroups of Illyrians. It wasn't a single haplogroup for sure, but I'd bet they carried some R1b subclade older than P312 and U106 (e.g. L51 or L11), because it was the R1b branch of Indo-Europeans that settled in Southeast Europe during the Bronze Age.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I did not mean to imply that there were two kinds of Slavs purely based on the haplogroup division between I2a1 and R1a. This would be too simplistic. Proto-Slavs surely carried both R1a (M458 and Z280) and I2a1-L621 (mostly the CTS10228 subclade), as well as various other haplogroups at lower frequency. The southern migration of Slavs fro Ukraine to Romania, the Balkans and the Dinaric Alps almost certainly carried a higher proportion of I2a1-L621 than R1a, due to a founder effect in the source population. But it would be wrong to assume that northern Slavs had the same proportion of R1a to I2a1 as observed today in Poland, Czechia, Slovakia or Belarus. A lot of R1a in these modern populations descends from older R1a migration, mostly from the Corded Ware culture in the Bronze Age, but also later historical Steppe migrations that brought some R1a-Z93 to central Europe. I don't believe there are two kinds of Slavs. There are many more (at least as many as there are Slavic languages and dialects), but all share some ancestry from the same Proto-Slavic population, which carried both R1a and I2a1 lineages.

As for I2a1-L621 in the Dinaric Alps, I once thought too that it descended from the ancient Illyrians. But the analysis of deep clades recently showed that almost all of them belong to the CTS10228 subclade, which according to Yfull.com has a TMRCA of only 2200 years. This means that it can only have a Proto-Slavic origin, and its expansion was extremely fast (only about 700 years to pass from one individual to a high percentage in a whole ethnic group before the Slavic migrations).

Like in the Dinaric Alps, almost all the I2a1 in Romania and in the Balkans belongs to this young Slavic CTS10228 clade. Unless the TMRCA is completely wrong, there is just no way that this I2a1 descends from the Vlachs or any pre-Slavic population. If you remove the Slavic R1a (M458 and Z280) and I2a1-CTS10228 and the Germanic I1, I2a2a-L801 and R1b-U106 from Southeast Europe, you are left mostly with E-M34, E-V13, G2a, J2a1, J2b, R1a-Z93 and R1b (Z2103, L51, U152), as well as some N1a around Serbia and Bosnia. Many of those lineages, especially J2b1, N1a, R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 could have come from Steppe migrations in the early Middle Ages (Khazars, Magyars, Bulgars). At least in terms of Y-DNA, there doesn't seem to be much left of the Roman era and pre-Roman populations of Southeast Europe E-V13, E-M34, G2a, J2a, J2b2, R1b-U152, which could all be of Roman or maybe Alpine Celtic origin. But it's more complicated than that. Some G2a, E-V13 and J2b2 could just as well have come with the Slavic or Germanic migrations, or from any historical Steppe migration. Only deep clades (ideally from a full Y chromosome test) for each individual can determine that.

It is too simplistic to say that R1a is not a Germanic haplogroup. R1a itself appeared over 20,000 years ago. It is important to mention which subclade we are referring to. And while R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 are mostly found in Slavic countries today, R1a-L664 and R1a-Z284 are overwhelmingly Germanic (West Germanic and Scandinavian, respectively). That's just the way it is. That being said, a substantial portion of R1a in East Germanic could be of Slavic origin.

@nonaligned
Kliknite za proširenje...

This means that it can only have a Proto-Slavic origin, and its expansion was extremely fast (only about 700 years to pass from one individual to a high percentage in a whole ethnic group before the Slavic migrations).

"Sloveni su pojavili pre 2300 godina niotkuda. Eto tako -nemaju pretke. Tikve bez korena. I bi taj jedan Adam Slovenski, tzv. Adamovic koji se pojavio niotkuda i onda je nastalo slovensko pleme".

Austin Powers Doctor Evil GIF
 
nonaligned:
This means that it can only have a Proto-Slavic origin, and its expansion was extremely fast (only about 700 years to pass from one individual to a high percentage in a whole ethnic group before the Slavic migrations).

"Sloveni su pojavili pre 2300 godina niotkuda. Eto tako -nemaju pretke. Tikve bez korena. I bi taj jedan Adam Slovenski, tzv. Adamovic koji se pojavio niotkuda i onda je nastalo slovensko pleme".

Austin Powers Doctor Evil GIF
Kliknite za proširenje...

To pre 2300 godina je mutacija koja je dovela do nastanka I2-CTS10228; ne Slovena.
 
Persida Kolofon Gemischt:
Pa ne znam zašto da pustimo, jerbo je i to isto proto-slovenska haplogrupa, grubo govoreći.
Uopšte ne razumem oko čega si se to zbunila. :dontunderstand:
Kliknite za proširenje...
Prestani da mi govoris da sam se zbunila. Nemoj da razvodnjavas po obicaju.

Ovo sto je rekao je cista glupost.

Odakle se pojavio taj pre 2300 godina?
Ko mu je tata?
Majmun?
 
nonaligned:
Prestani da mi govoris da sam se zbunila. Nemoj da razvodnjavas po obicaju.

Ovo sto je rekao je cista glupost.

Odakle se pojavio taj pre 2300 godina?
Ko mu je tata?
Majmun?
Kliknite za proširenje...
Tata prvog Slovena nije bio Sloven, šta tu nije jasno :roll:
Pošto je sin imao mutaciju tata ga se odrekao i tako nesvesno doprineo nastanku novog naroda.
Sin se posle brzo razmnožio, eksplodirao što bi rekli stručnjaci :D
 
Persida Kolofon Gemischt:
Note that this CTS10228 is not found only in the Dinaric Alps, but in all Slavic countries, and that it can be calculated relatively accurately that all people who are I2-CTS10228 descend from a common ancestor who lived only some 2300 years ago. That's why it cannot be Illyrian.
Kliknite za proširenje...
Persida, informacija koju si citirala nije tačna.
Persida, grana CTS10228, prisutna u svim slovenskim zemljama nije stara samo 2300 godina.
Ova grana je stara 5000 godina prema zvaničnim podacima.
Dakle može biti ilirska.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228*/

-CTS10228 CTS878 * Y3111/FGC12081/SK1237/V2129 * S12235+23 SNPs formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybpi
 
Kole11:
Ajmo malo matematike

2000-3400 = -1400 tj.drugi milenijum stare ere.

Što čini nekih 1000 godina razlike u odnosu na željenu godinu početka etnogeneze Slovena, 400.

Raskorak između želje i realnosti je čitav milenijum. Ko mari za to :D
Kliknite za proširenje...

Aman, zašto ne pročitaš samo šta tu piše, pobogu?

Slab si sa engleskim jezikom?
 
Poslednja izmena:
Krishna:
Ха, ха, нема их у 25 најближих. Удаљени су прилично генетски од Шиптара, а то да су блиски постоји само у шиптарској пропаганди.
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Удаљени су они и између себе, Братоножићи, Пипери, Бјепавлићи, Кучи и Васојевићи имају претка на 5000 година, а међусобно унакрст, на 3-4000 како ко ским, а сви су Е-В13.
Док ми СВИ И2а Словени, од Солуна до Новгородска смо на 1800-2200 година.
Невероватно....
Зато се они и не осећају народом, већ је свако племе за себе, јер су превише удаљени...
 
Crnugović:
Dali se zna nešto više o starosti uzoraka,osim ovo "ancient"?

Ovaj mixture može ukazivati na praksu muškog roblja-"janičari"
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Требало би да је већина узорака из раног средњег века и касне антике.

Занимљиво да многи туркијски народи имају висок проценат R1a-Z93, а неки и R1b. Изгледа са су прото-Туркијци настали мешањем белаца (Скита, Сака) и монголоида и да су од настанка били местици а неки чисти монголоиди. Туркијски језици имају конекцију са монголским, корејским и источносибирским језицима, што указује да је лингвистички преовладао монголоидни елемент. Углавном, код већине туркијских народа су доминтније кавказоидне (белачке) од монголоидних мушких линија, али имају више монголоидних митохондријалних хаплогрупа (по директним женским линијама). Мајке су училе децу како да говоре, па ту врв. лежи објашњење зашто Туркијци говоре азијатским језиком а имају више белачких мушких лоза.
 
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