Dubrovačka književnost je srpska i bazirana je na kosovskom zavetu!

[АнаиванГорд]

Broj sačuvanih spomenika svojih vladara pogotovo u kamenu iz tog vremena ima malo tko da se pohvali u Europi. Hrvatska ih ima zapravo jako puno dok velike nacije kao što su npr. Englezi nemaju i sve što znaju o ranim knezovima i kraljevima se bazira na razno raznim pismima, poveljama, kronikama, tapiserijama i kovanicama. Pravo pitanje je što ima Srbija? Da nemamo DAI, ljetopis popa Dukljanina i franačke anale nebi se apsolutno ništa znalo o najstarijim srpskim knezovima i kraljevima. Prava pitanja za ranosrednjovjekovno razdoblje do 11. st. glase:

Gdje su sahranjeni srpski velikani, knjaževi i župani? Gdje su grobovi i mauzoleji srpskih "kraljeva"?
-gdje su njihove povelje, kovani novac, pečati? (pečati, koje inače imaju svi susjedni narodi.)
-gdje su rudnici tih srpskih knezova/župana/kraljeva, diplomatska pisma, dvorci..?
Gdje su njihove zadužbine (crkve, manastriri)? Ima li igdje neke narodne epike o nekim prvim srpskim knezovima/županima/kraljevima u srpskom narodu?
Gdje su bilo kakvi pisani dokazi i pomeni u Rimu ili Carigradu o krunisanju srpskih kraljeva? (inače postoje za sve vladare njima susjednih naroda.)
U Beogradu imaju dokumenta stranih srednjovjekovnih vladara (Mlečana, Nijemaca, Grka, Madjara, Bugara, Turaka..i dr) samo apsolutno nigdje nema srpskih velikana knjaževa, župana, kraljeva..??

Јеси ли ти озбиљан?

 

[АнаиванГорд]

Kod Srba nema ništa starije od 12.st., prazni list papira, ni kamenčića, ni groba.

???

 

[Mej bregami]

???

Tek od 12.st. imamo nešto građeno od Srba, ulaze na pozornicu svijeta. Do tada tek poneki spomen stranaca, ali ništa materijalno.
Vjerojatno su Srbi živjeli u nomadskim šatorima, muzli krave, tucali maslac

 

[АнаиванГорд]

Tek od 12.st. imamo nešto građeno od Srba, ulaze na pozornicu svijeta. Do tada tek poneki spomen stranaca, ali ništa materijalno.
Vjerojatno su Srbi živjeli u nomadskim šatorima, muzli krave, tucali maslac

Бодинов печат нпр?
А и уозбиљи се мало

 

[Urvan Hroboatos]

Broj sačuvanih spomenika svojih vladara pogotovo u kamenu iz tog vremena ima malo tko da se pohvali u Europi. Hrvatska ih ima zapravo jako puno dok velike nacije kao što su npr. Englezi nemaju i sve što znaju o ranim knezovima i kraljevima se bazira na razno raznim pismima, poveljama, kronikama, tapiserijama i kovanicama.

Englezi, kao i ostali zapadni narodi, imaju daleko više. Istina je da su frankofoni Normani nakon 1066. dosta toga razorili, no ostalo je puno, napose velika djela na staroengleskom, poput prijevoda velikoga Boethijeva dhela "Utjeha filozofije", na staroengleski.

Točno da je to djelo posve nerazumljivo, no to je zbog specifične naravi nastanka modernoga engleskoga jezika. čak i kad se svlada runsko pismo, ne razumije se ništa.

https://archive.org/details/kingalfreds00boetuoft/page/n23/mode/1up

Ovo je staroengleski:

 

[Frontiersman]

On sebe zove Srbinom?

Nisam siguran da su sačuvane ikakve povelje iz njegovog vremena, a i pitanje nema smisla.

Tek od 12.st. imamo nešto građeno od Srba, ulaze na pozornicu svijeta. Do tada tek poneki spomen stranaca, ali ništa materijalno.
Vjerojatno su Srbi živjeli u nomadskim šatorima, muzli krave, tucali maslac

Ima još od 9. stoljeća kao što je crkva Svetih apostola Petra i Pavla ili Strojimirov pečat.

 

[DuKaraka]

Ima još od 9. stoljeća kao što je crkva Svetih apostola Petra i Pavla ili Strojimirov pečat.

Crkva Svetih apostola Petra i Pavla nisu izgradili Srbi nego Bugari ili Bizantinci jer Stari Ras je bio pod Bugarima ili Bizantincima. Srpski postaje tek od vremena Nemanjića.

Strojimirov pečat ne zna se je li pripada knezu Strojimiru, može se raditi o bilo kome, ali najvjerojatnije ipak radi o njemu i imao ga je kao vazal u egzilu u Bugarskoj (Tibor Živković, "The golden seal of Stroimir").

Znači doslovno ništa ili skoro ništa zbog toga pečata protjeranog kneza u Bugarskoj (dok Bodinov pečat je iz Duklje ne Raške/Srbije).

 

[Frontiersman]

Crkva Svetih apostola Petra i Pavla nisu izgradili Srbi nego Bugari ili Bizantinci jer Stari Ras je bio pod Bugarima ili Bizantincima. Srpski postaje tek od vremena Nemanjića.

Ne znam odakle ti ovakve budalaštine. Za vrijeme Vlastimirovića je često bio pod kontrolom srpske države pa je tako tu uspostavljena prva srpska eprahija za virjeme hrišćanizacije Srba pod vlašću kneza Mutimira. Često se ta crkva smatra za mjesto gdje su ti vladari prvobitno sahranjivani.

The church served as the seat of the Serbian eparchy, as the rotunda plan is characteristic of first court chapels. The bishopric was established shortly after 871, during the rule of Prince Mutimir (r. 850–891), and was part of the general plan of establishing bishoprics in the Slav lands of the Empire, confirmed by the Council of Constantinople in 879–880.

Da ne pominjem da su i prije Nemanjića, od srpskih valdara, tu tvrđavu kasnije držali i Vojislavljevići i Vukanovići.

Strojimirov pečat ne zna se je li pripada knezu Strojimiru, može se raditi o bilo kome, ali najvjerojatnije ipak radi o njemu i imao ga je kao vazal u egzilu u Bugarskoj (Tibor Živković, "The golden seal of Stroimir").

Nejasne su mi tvoje konstatacije ponekad. Nije bitno da li je pripadao Strojimiru ili njegovom sinu Klonimiru svakako se radi o pečatu srpskih plemića iz 9. vijeka.

Znači doslovno ništa ili skoro ništa zbog toga pečata protjeranog kneza u Bugarskoj (dok Bodinov pečat je iz Duklje ne Raške/Srbije).

Ha?
Pričao sam samo o periodu 9. vijeka za vrijeme Srpske kneževine. Za kasnije periode kneževine/kraljevine Duklje i velikožupanske Raške ima daleko više sačuvanih spomenika i artefakata.

 

[Mej bregami]

Бодинов печат нпр?
А и уозбиљи се мало

Nije Srbin

 

[Frontiersman]

Nije Srbin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_Bodin

K sažaljeniju.

Бодинов печат нпр?
А и уозбиљи се мало

Knez Petar takođe ima svoj pečat iz 10. vijeka sačuvan.

 

[Mej bregami]

Nisam siguran da su sačuvane ikakve povelje iz njegovog vremena, a i pitanje nema smisla.


Ima još od 9. stoljeća kao što je crkva Svetih apostola Petra i Pavla ili Strojimirov pečat.

Petrova crkva je Bizantska, Strojimirov pečat je ništa. Pečat ništa ne povezuje sa Srbijom i u isto vrijeme srpskog Strojimira spominje se i češki Strojimir, a bilo ih je vjerojatno i više.
Nema titule ni spomena države ili bilo čega vladarskog, mogao je biti i pečat nekog trgovca.

 

[Mej bregami]

K sažaljeniju

Da, nigdje spomena ni kroz raniju povijest da Duklja ima ikakve veze sa Srbima. To je konstrukcija iz dosta kasnijeg vremena.

 

[Mej bregami]

Knez Petar takođe ima svoj pečat iz 10. vijeka sačuvan.

Knez Duklje piše na pečatu, nigdje Srbije.

 

[DuKaraka]

Ne znam odakle ti ovakve budalaštine. Za vrijeme Vlastimirovića je često bio pod kontrolom srpske države pa je tako tu uspostavljena prva srpska eprahija za virjeme hrišćanizacije Srba pod vlašću kneza Mutimira. Često se ta crkva smatra za mjesto gdje su ti vladari prvobitno sahranjivani.

The church served as the seat of the Serbian eparchy, as the rotunda plan is characteristic of first court chapels. The bishopric was established shortly after 871, during the rule of Prince Mutimir (r. 850–891), and was part of the general plan of establishing bishoprics in the Slav lands of the Empire, confirmed by the Council of Constantinople in 879–880.

Da ne pominjem da su i prije Nemanjića, od srpskih valdara, tu tvrđavu kasnije držali i Vojislavljevići i Vukanovići.

Nisu vladali Rasom nikada. To je bila granična utvrda pod upravom Bugara ili Bizanta, a eparhija nema veze s političkom vlašću i nastala je najvjerojatnije pod utjecajem i vlašću Bizanta.

The toponym Ras derives from Arsa via metathesis. A bishopric which cover parts of Serbia was founded probably in Ras in the time of major ecclesiastical events that took place around the Council of Constantinople in 869-870 and the Council of Constantinople in 879–880.[3] The tenth century De Administrando Imperio mentions Rasa as a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia at the end of the ninth century. Newer research indicates that in the late ninth century it was part of the First Bulgarian Empire.[4] From that period onwards, it changed rulers several times. Byzantine Emperor John Tzimiskes re-established control of Ras in 971 and founded the Catepanate of Ras. The seal of protospatharios John of Ras has been found from that era.[5][6] By 976, the Bulgarian state had regained Ras, but Basil II recaptured it about 40 years later in 1016–1018. In the imperial charters of Basil II from 1019 and 1020, rights and jurisdictions of the autonomous Archbishopric of Ohrid were established. One of the bishoprics in its jurisdiction was that of Ras, with the seat at the Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul. It remained a Byzantine frontier area until John II Komnenos lost the area as a result of the Byzantine–Hungarian War (1127–1129). The fortress of Ras was then burnt by the Serbian army. Its last commander was a Kritoplos who was then punished by Emperor for the fall of the fortress.[7]

Ivanišević, Vujadin; Krsmanović, Bojana (2013). "Byzantine seals from the Ras fortress" (PDF). Recueil des travaux de l'Institut d'études byzantines. 50 (1): 449–460. doi:10.2298/ZRVI1350449I.

A region called Rasa has also been mentioned in De administrando imperii, where it denotes a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia.7 Even though Constantine Porphyrogennetos did not specify within whose borders this area lay in the late ninth century (Serbian or Bulgarian), somewhat newer data indicates that the region was in fact located on Bulgarian territory.

The Byzantine Empire first conquered the Ras fortress during the reign of John I Tzimiskes (969–976), at the time when Russia and the Byzantine Empire fought in the Balkan interior to gain control over Bulgaria. The fact that the Byzantine Empire established its military hold on Ras at this time is confi rmed by a seal belonging to a certain John, the protospatharios and katepano of Ras (tou/ `Ra,sou).8 It has been assumed that the Byzantine Empire occupied the wider area surrounding the fortress in the operations carried out in the early seventies of the tenth century. This thesis is supported by the Chronicle of Dioclea, which relates the activities of Tzimiskes’ generals in the province of Rascia even after 971 – the year when the Emperor withdrew from the Balkan front.9 No data has been preserved about the fate of Ras in the period which saw the renewal of the Bulgarian state under Samuel and his successors (976–1018), but there is no doubt that Ras became a part of the new Bulgarian empire. During the reign of Basil II (976–1025), after the reorganization of rule in the Balkans (after 1018/1019), Ras once again became a part of the Byzantine Empire, as confi rmed by Basil’s second sigillion issued in 1020 in the autocephalous Archbishopric of Ohrid. It is signifi cant to note that this sigillion considers the bishopric of Ras as a former Bulgarian diocese, and not just starting from Samuel’s reign, but as early as the reign of Emperor Peter (927–969).10 The rank which Ras held after 1018/1019 in the military and administrative system of the Empire is not known, but it is worth mentioning the hypotheses about the identifi cation of Ras and the surrounding area with the strategos of Serbia, as the extant seals suggest.11 The administrative unit in question could have – presumably – existed approximately until the mid-11th century.

In addition to this, Anne Komnene, who gave detailed accounts of Alexios’ confl icts with the Rascian župan Vukan (1091, 1093–1094), does not mention Ras in any of her writings. On the other hand, the Chronicle of Dioclea states that in the 1080s Bodin conquered Rascia, the region where – with his help – župan Vukan and his brother Marko established their rule;13 however, the question remains whether the Byzantine border fortress became a part of Serbia at this time. The Serbian conquest of Ras is confi rmed at a later date, during the reign of John II Komnenos (1118–1143). John Kinnamos relates the Serbian conquest and burning down of the Byzantine Ras (circa 1127–1129), which prompted the Emperor to punish Kritoplos, the commander of the fortress.14 Recently found seals on the site The Fortress of Ras support the opinion that the Byzantine Empire held dominant (but perhaps not continuous) control over Ras during Alexios’ reign. At this location, besides the bulla of Alexios I, we also found seals which used to belong to high-ranking military commanders of the Byzantine Empire. Prosopographical identifi cation of these persons and their activities in the area surrounding Ras (and in the wider region of the Western Balkans) is not certain. However, it could be surmised that some of them were in offi ce during the reign of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos; hence, the question remains if these commanders played a role in the Serbo-Byzantine confl icts of 1091 and 1093–1094 and in the renewal of the peace treaty in 1106. Also, we should allow for the possibility that some of these seals belong to the period of Serbo-Byzantine confl icts of 1127–1129, which broke out during the reign of Alexios’ successor John II Komnenos.

Srpstvo starog Rasa je jedna od najvećih mitomanija i zabluda srpske historiografije.

 

[Frontiersman]

Petrova crkva je Bizantska, Strojimirov pečat je ništa. Pečat ništa ne povezuje sa Srbijom i u isto vrijeme srpskog Strojimira spominje se i češki Strojimir, a bilo ih je vjerojatno i više.
Nema titule ni spomena države ili bilo čega vladarskog, mogao je biti i pečat nekog trgovca.

Bila je i vizantijska na određene periode, no to je manje važno jer pričamo o periodima kada je bila srpska. Što se tiče pečata istoričari imaju razloge zašto su primjetili da se radi o srpskom Strojimiru (ispis slova koji je karakterističan kulturi ovog podneblja). Uostalom istoričari ispisuju istoriju, ne forumaši.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strojimir

Da, nigdje spomena ni kroz raniju povijest da Duklja ima ikakve veze sa Srbima. To je konstrukcija iz dosta kasnijeg vremena.

11. stoljeće ne dolazi tako kasno. Mada si samo lijen pročitat šta piše.

Knez Duklje piše na pečatu, nigdje Srbije.

Da, tačno. Ovo se odnosi na uopšteno sve srednjovjekovne srpske države, zaključno sa Dukljom. Jer po tome ni veliki župan Raške Stefan Nemanja ne bi bio vladar Srbije.
Doduše na Bodinovom pečatu stoji i Srbija.

 

[Frontiersman]

Nisu vladali Rasom nikada. To je bila granična utvrda pod upravom Bugara ili Bizanta, a eparhija nema veze s političkom vlašću i nastala je najvjerojatnije pod utjecajem i vlašću Bizanta.

The toponym Ras derives from Arsa via metathesis. A bishopric which cover parts of Serbia was founded probably in Ras in the time of major ecclesiastical events that took place around the Council of Constantinople in 869-870 and the Council of Constantinople in 879–880.[3] The tenth century De Administrando Imperio mentions Rasa as a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia at the end of the ninth century. Newer research indicates that in the late ninth century it was part of the First Bulgarian Empire.[4] From that period onwards, it changed rulers several times. Byzantine Emperor John Tzimiskes re-established control of Ras in 971 and founded the Catepanate of Ras. The seal of protospatharios John of Ras has been found from that era.[5][6] By 976, the Bulgarian state had regained Ras, but Basil II recaptured it about 40 years later in 1016–1018. In the imperial charters of Basil II from 1019 and 1020, rights and jurisdictions of the autonomous Archbishopric of Ohrid were established. One of the bishoprics in its jurisdiction was that of Ras, with the seat at the Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul. It remained a Byzantine frontier area until John II Komnenos lost the area as a result of the Byzantine–Hungarian War (1127–1129). The fortress of Ras was then burnt by the Serbian army. Its last commander was a Kritoplos who was then punished by Emperor for the fall of the fortress.[7]

Ivanišević, Vujadin; Krsmanović, Bojana (2013). "Byzantine seals from the Ras fortress" (PDF). Recueil des travaux de l'Institut d'études byzantines. 50 (1): 449–460. doi:10.2298/ZRVI1350449I.

A region called Rasa has also been mentioned in De administrando imperii, where it denotes a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia.7 Even though Constantine Porphyrogennetos did not specify within whose borders this area lay in the late ninth century (Serbian or Bulgarian), somewhat newer data indicates that the region was in fact located on Bulgarian territory.

The Byzantine Empire first conquered the Ras fortress during the reign of John I Tzimiskes (969–976), at the time when Russia and the Byzantine Empire fought in the Balkan interior to gain control over Bulgaria. The fact that the Byzantine Empire established its military hold on Ras at this time is confi rmed by a seal belonging to a certain John, the protospatharios and katepano of Ras (tou/ `Ra,sou).8 It has been assumed that the Byzantine Empire occupied the wider area surrounding the fortress in the operations carried out in the early seventies of the tenth century. This thesis is supported by the Chronicle of Dioclea, which relates the activities of Tzimiskes’ generals in the province of Rascia even after 971 – the year when the Emperor withdrew from the Balkan front.9 No data has been preserved about the fate of Ras in the period which saw the renewal of the Bulgarian state under Samuel and his successors (976–1018), but there is no doubt that Ras became a part of the new Bulgarian empire. During the reign of Basil II (976–1025), after the reorganization of rule in the Balkans (after 1018/1019), Ras once again became a part of the Byzantine Empire, as confi rmed by Basil’s second sigillion issued in 1020 in the autocephalous Archbishopric of Ohrid. It is signifi cant to note that this sigillion considers the bishopric of Ras as a former Bulgarian diocese, and not just starting from Samuel’s reign, but as early as the reign of Emperor Peter (927–969).10 The rank which Ras held after 1018/1019 in the military and administrative system of the Empire is not known, but it is worth mentioning the hypotheses about the identifi cation of Ras and the surrounding area with the strategos of Serbia, as the extant seals suggest.11 The administrative unit in question could have – presumably – existed approximately until the mid-11th century.

In addition to this, Anne Komnene, who gave detailed accounts of Alexios’ confl icts with the Rascian župan Vukan (1091, 1093–1094), does not mention Ras in any of her writings. On the other hand, the Chronicle of Dioclea states that in the 1080s Bodin conquered Rascia, the region where – with his help – župan Vukan and his brother Marko established their rule;13 however, the question remains whether the Byzantine border fortress became a part of Serbia at this time. The Serbian conquest of Ras is confi rmed at a later date, during the reign of John II Komnenos (1118–1143). John Kinnamos relates the Serbian conquest and burning down of the Byzantine Ras (circa 1127–1129), which prompted the Emperor to punish Kritoplos, the commander of the fortress.14 Recently found seals on the site The Fortress of Ras support the opinion that the Byzantine Empire held dominant (but perhaps not continuous) control over Ras during Alexios’ reign. At this location, besides the bulla of Alexios I, we also found seals which used to belong to high-ranking military commanders of the Byzantine Empire. Prosopographical identifi cation of these persons and their activities in the area surrounding Ras (and in the wider region of the Western Balkans) is not certain. However, it could be surmised that some of them were in offi ce during the reign of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos; hence, the question remains if these commanders played a role in the Serbo-Byzantine confl icts of 1091 and 1093–1094 and in the renewal of the peace treaty in 1106. Also, we should allow for the possibility that some of these seals belong to the period of Serbo-Byzantine confl icts of 1127–1129, which broke out during the reign of Alexios’ successor John II Komnenos.

Srpstvo starog Rasa je jedna od najvećih mitomanija i zabluda srpske historiografije.

Ne razumijem opet. Ponekad se pitam da li ti čitaš šta šalješ. Sve je tu lijepo napisano iako si htio isjeć detalje koji tebi pašu. Još da podsjetim sve ovdje da je Vukan koncem 11. stoljeća na kratko proširio velikožupansku Rašku sve do Skoplja, a helihopter tad još nije izmišljen.

 

[Urvan Hroboatos]

Nisu vladali Rasom nikada. To je bila granična utvrda pod upravom Bugara ili Bizanta, a eparhija nema veze s političkom vlašću i nastala je najvjerojatnije pod utjecajem i vlašću Bizanta.

The toponym Ras derives from Arsa via metathesis. A bishopric which cover parts of Serbia was founded probably in Ras in the time of major ecclesiastical events that took place around the Council of Constantinople in 869-870 and the Council of Constantinople in 879–880.[3] The tenth century De Administrando Imperio mentions Rasa as a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia at the end of the ninth century. Newer research indicates that in the late ninth century it was part of the First Bulgarian Empire.[4] From that period onwards, it changed rulers several times. Byzantine Emperor John Tzimiskes re-established control of Ras in 971 and founded the Catepanate of Ras. The seal of protospatharios John of Ras has been found from that era.[5][6] By 976, the Bulgarian state had regained Ras, but Basil II recaptured it about 40 years later in 1016–1018. In the imperial charters of Basil II from 1019 and 1020, rights and jurisdictions of the autonomous Archbishopric of Ohrid were established. One of the bishoprics in its jurisdiction was that of Ras, with the seat at the Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul. It remained a Byzantine frontier area until John II Komnenos lost the area as a result of the Byzantine–Hungarian War (1127–1129). The fortress of Ras was then burnt by the Serbian army. Its last commander was a Kritoplos who was then punished by Emperor for the fall of the fortress.[7]

Ivanišević, Vujadin; Krsmanović, Bojana (2013). "Byzantine seals from the Ras fortress" (PDF). Recueil des travaux de l'Institut d'études byzantines. 50 (1): 449–460. doi:10.2298/ZRVI1350449I.

A region called Rasa has also been mentioned in De administrando imperii, where it denotes a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia.7 Even though Constantine Porphyrogennetos did not specify within whose borders this area lay in the late ninth century (Serbian or Bulgarian), somewhat newer data indicates that the region was in fact located on Bulgarian territory.

The Byzantine Empire first conquered the Ras fortress during the reign of John I Tzimiskes (969–976), at the time when Russia and the Byzantine Empire fought in the Balkan interior to gain control over Bulgaria. The fact that the Byzantine Empire established its military hold on Ras at this time is confi rmed by a seal belonging to a certain John, the protospatharios and katepano of Ras (tou/ `Ra,sou).8 It has been assumed that the Byzantine Empire occupied the wider area surrounding the fortress in the operations carried out in the early seventies of the tenth century. This thesis is supported by the Chronicle of Dioclea, which relates the activities of Tzimiskes’ generals in the province of Rascia even after 971 – the year when the Emperor withdrew from the Balkan front.9 No data has been preserved about the fate of Ras in the period which saw the renewal of the Bulgarian state under Samuel and his successors (976–1018), but there is no doubt that Ras became a part of the new Bulgarian empire. During the reign of Basil II (976–1025), after the reorganization of rule in the Balkans (after 1018/1019), Ras once again became a part of the Byzantine Empire, as confi rmed by Basil’s second sigillion issued in 1020 in the autocephalous Archbishopric of Ohrid. It is signifi cant to note that this sigillion considers the bishopric of Ras as a former Bulgarian diocese, and not just starting from Samuel’s reign, but as early as the reign of Emperor Peter (927–969).10 The rank which Ras held after 1018/1019 in the military and administrative system of the Empire is not known, but it is worth mentioning the hypotheses about the identifi cation of Ras and the surrounding area with the strategos of Serbia, as the extant seals suggest.11 The administrative unit in question could have – presumably – existed approximately until the mid-11th century.

In addition to this, Anne Komnene, who gave detailed accounts of Alexios’ confl icts with the Rascian župan Vukan (1091, 1093–1094), does not mention Ras in any of her writings. On the other hand, the Chronicle of Dioclea states that in the 1080s Bodin conquered Rascia, the region where – with his help – župan Vukan and his brother Marko established their rule;13 however, the question remains whether the Byzantine border fortress became a part of Serbia at this time. The Serbian conquest of Ras is confi rmed at a later date, during the reign of John II Komnenos (1118–1143). John Kinnamos relates the Serbian conquest and burning down of the Byzantine Ras (circa 1127–1129), which prompted the Emperor to punish Kritoplos, the commander of the fortress.14 Recently found seals on the site The Fortress of Ras support the opinion that the Byzantine Empire held dominant (but perhaps not continuous) control over Ras during Alexios’ reign. At this location, besides the bulla of Alexios I, we also found seals which used to belong to high-ranking military commanders of the Byzantine Empire. Prosopographical identifi cation of these persons and their activities in the area surrounding Ras (and in the wider region of the Western Balkans) is not certain. However, it could be surmised that some of them were in offi ce during the reign of Emperor Alexios I Komnenos; hence, the question remains if these commanders played a role in the Serbo-Byzantine confl icts of 1091 and 1093–1094 and in the renewal of the peace treaty in 1106. Also, we should allow for the possibility that some of these seals belong to the period of Serbo-Byzantine confl icts of 1127–1129, which broke out during the reign of Alexios’ successor John II Komnenos.

Srpstvo starog Rasa je jedna od najvećih mitomanija i zabluda srpske historiografije.

Meni sve ovo izgleda dosta bizarno.


Rašku na stranu, Duklja očito nije bila srpska u ranom dobu, no postupno je posrbljivana u 10.-11. stoljeću, pa je i u spisima, a još važnije u pučkoj i vjerskoj kulturi apsorbirana u srpski identitet kasnije.

Roman o Vladimiru i Kosari je vjerojatno više zabilježen u hrvatskoj verziji na slavenskom jeziku, no to je, uz dosta bajkovitu obradbu ušlo u srpski narodno-kulturni bitak u kontinuitetu i postalo pravoslavna srpska priča,iako je tu u početku bilo svašta, od Dukljana, Bizantinaca, Srba, Bugara, Albanaca i ostalo.

Jednostavno, nemanjićka kultura je usisala i održala na životu te starije oblike stapanja raznih etnosa i učinila ih srpskim, a kakvi su bili- ako su uopće bili- nevažno je.

 

[DuKaraka]

Ne razumijem opet. Ponekad se pitam da li ti čitaš šta šalješ. Sve je tu lijepo napisano iako si htio isjeć detalje koji tebi pašu. Još da podsjetim sve ovdje da je Vukan koncem 11. stoljeća na kratko proširio velikožupansku Rašku sve do Skoplja, a helihopter tad još nije izmišljen.

Znači ne znaš engleski jer je sve jasno napisano i nikakvi detalji nisu isječeni. Ras tada nije nikada bio dio Srbije i srpski - točka. To su srpski povjesničari napisali i konstatirali!

 

[FDDD]

Jednostavno, nemanjićka kultura je usisala i održala na životu te starije oblike stapanja raznih etnosa i učinila ih srpskim, a kakvi su bili- ako su uopće bili- nevažno je.

Ne mlati bre. Koji etnos i kultura nije "usisala" nešto oko nje?
Vi ste sisali više nego bilo ko, zato ne serri

 

[FDDD]

Znači ne znaš engleski jer je sve jasno napisano i nikakvi detalji nisu isječeni. Ras tada nije nikada bio dio Srbije i srpski - točka. To su srpski povjesničari napisali i konstatirali!

"Hrvatska" veći deo svoje istorije nije bila svoja a ni ti bogami

 

[Urvan Hroboatos]

Ne mlati bre. Koji etnos i kultura nije "usisala" nešto oko nje?
Vi ste sisali više nego bilo ko, zato ne serri

Lupetanje. Kultura humsko-dukljanskog kruga je zasebna, i dala je "najstariju srpsku knjigu", Miroslavov evanđelistar, koji uopće nije srpski. No postao je zbog niza promašenih atribucija, a sama dukljanska slavenska kultura, ili simbioza slavensko-bizantsko-arbanaška, prestala je postojati u dobu 12.-13. stoljeća.

Do tada, to je bio zaseban kulturno narodni krug.

Ako u čijoj pismenosti ima nasljednika, to je hrvatska ćirilska pismenost humske redkcije, koju bi srpska filologija nasilu htjela ubacitu u tobožnju zetsko-humsku redakciju, koje u srpskoj pisanoj kulturi i nema. Nema nikakvog pisanoga korpusa.

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/164653

https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/389304

 

[FDDD]

Lupetanje. Kultura humsko-dukljanskog kruga je zasebna, i dala je "najstariju srpsku knjigu", Miroslavov evanđelistar, koji uopće nije srpski. No postao je zbog niza promašenih atribucija, a sama dukljanska slavenska kultura, ili simbioza slavensko-bizantsko-arbanaška, prestala je postojati u dobu 12.-13. stoljeća.

Do tada, to je bio zaseban kulturno narodni krug.

Kad Višeslavova krstionica može biti "hrvatska", može i Miroslavljevo jevandjele srpsko. Kad pola Dalmacije može biti "hrvatsko", Hum i Duklja mogu biti srpske barem duplo više.

Kome ti pišeš ovde? Lečiš svoju patologiju na srpskom forumu i medju Srbima?

 

[Frontiersman]

Znači ne znaš engleski jer je sve jasno napisano i nikakvi detalji nisu isječeni. Ras tada nije nikada bio dio Srbije i srpski - točka. To su srpski povjesničari napisali i konstatirali!

Daj ne skiči ovdje.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stari_Ras

The tenth century De Administrando Imperio mentions Rasa as a border area between Bulgaria and Serbia at the end of the ninth century. Newer research indicates that in the late ninth century it was part of the First Bulgarian Empire.[4] From that period onwards, it changed rulers several times.

It remained a Byzantine frontier area until John II Komnenos lost the area as a result of the Byzantine–Hungarian War (1127–1129). The fortress of Ras was then burnt by the Serbian army. Its last commander was a Kritoplos who was then punished by Emperor for the fall of the fortress.[7] In the next war (1149–51) the Byzantines seized Ras again.

Byzantine Emperor John I Tzimiskes (r. 969–976) recognized the Ras region as being the "focus of the Serbian lands", amid his annexation of the region (organizing it into a Catepanate).[8]

 

[Urvan Hroboatos]

Kad Višeslavova krstionica može biti "hrvatska", može i Miroslavljevo jevandjele srpsko. Kad pola Dalmacije može biti "hrvatsko", Hum i Duklja mogu biti srpske barem duplo više.

Kome ti pišeš ovde? Lečiš svoju patologiju na srpskom forumu i medju Srbima?

Hum i Duklja u to doba nisu bili srpski, no baštinika u pismenosti imaju jedino u hrvatskom krugu. U srpskom- ni jezično, ni umjetnički, nemaju-ništa.

https://www.hercegbosna.org/STARO/ostalo/etnicka.html

S time u svezi valja posebno napomenutisljedeće: izuzetno su zanimljive tvrdnje srpskihpovjesničara i paleografa koji su ustvrdili daje velik dio (po njima sve-no, tu se radi o pretjerivanju)kasnije pismenosti Bosne i Huma (kao i dijelaDalmacije) ukorijenjen u tekstu «Miroslavova Evanđelistara».Time su, očito vođeni željama srpske nacionalneideologije, htjeli utvrditi etničko ili civilizacijsko«srpstvo» ćirilskih spomenika napisanih na ozemljuBosne, Huma, Zahumlja, Dalmacije i drugih krajeva.No, baš usuprot tim tezama- grafijske i ikonografskeznačajke «Miroslavova Evanđelistara» se mogu naćijedino u krstjanskim i katoličkim tekstovima kojepripadaju riznici hrvatske pismenosti i kulture,što je uvjerljivo pokazala Benedikta Zelić-Bučan.Ironija je u sljedećem: gleda li se u korpususrpske pismenosti i kulture, «Miroslavov Evanđelistar»je suha grana, ili, još plastičnije- meteor kojise pojavio niotkuda i nestao ne ostavivši tragau kasnijim djelima srpske književnosti i pismenosti.Tek ga je njegovo otkriće u 19. st., te raskošnoizdanje praćeno dostojnom promičbom, dignulo napijedestal prvoga izvornoga srpskoga teksta- skojim kasnija srpska literarna i umjetnička tradicijanema veze, dok je ugrađen u stariju hrvatsku pismenosti književnost pisanu hrvatskom ćirilicom ili bosančicom-što najbolje govori o njegovoj civilizacijskoji etničkopovijesnoj pripadnosti. Najpregnantnijesu komentare o problematici bosančice dali EduardHercigonja i Benedikta Zelić-Bučan, i to u tekstovimakoje donosimo na stranici o kulturnopovijesnimraščlanama. U ostalim je vidovima Budakov radpregledan prikaz višeslojne problematike područjakoje «Ljetopis popaDukljanina» naziva Crvenom Hrvatskom.

KULTURA HUMSKO-DUKLJANSKOG PODRUČJA DO KRAJA 12. STOLJEĆA​

 

[FDDD]

Hum i Duklja u to doba nisu bili srpski, no baštinika u pismenosti imaju jedino u hrvatskom krugu. U srpskom- ni jezično, ni umjetnički, nemaju-ništa.

https://www.hercegbosna.org/STARO/ostalo/etnicka.html

S time u svezi valja posebno napomenutisljedeće: izuzetno su zanimljive tvrdnje srpskihpovjesničara i paleografa koji su ustvrdili daje velik dio (po njima sve-no, tu se radi o pretjerivanju)kasnije pismenosti Bosne i Huma (kao i dijelaDalmacije) ukorijenjen u tekstu «Miroslavova Evanđelistara».Time su, očito vođeni željama srpske nacionalneideologije, htjeli utvrditi etničko ili civilizacijsko«srpstvo» ćirilskih spomenika napisanih na ozemljuBosne, Huma, Zahumlja, Dalmacije i drugih krajeva.No, baš usuprot tim tezama- grafijske i ikonografskeznačajke «Miroslavova Evanđelistara» se mogu naćijedino u krstjanskim i katoličkim tekstovima kojepripadaju riznici hrvatske pismenosti i kulture,što je uvjerljivo pokazala Benedikta Zelić-Bučan.Ironija je u sljedećem: gleda li se u korpususrpske pismenosti i kulture, «Miroslavov Evanđelistar»je suha grana, ili, još plastičnije- meteor kojise pojavio niotkuda i nestao ne ostavivši tragau kasnijim djelima srpske književnosti i pismenosti.Tek ga je njegovo otkriće u 19. st., te raskošnoizdanje praćeno dostojnom promičbom, dignulo napijedestal prvoga izvornoga srpskoga teksta- skojim kasnija srpska literarna i umjetnička tradicijanema veze, dok je ugrađen u stariju hrvatsku pismenosti književnost pisanu hrvatskom ćirilicom ili bosančicom-što najbolje govori o njegovoj civilizacijskoji etničkopovijesnoj pripadnosti. Najpregnantnijesu komentare o problematici bosančice dali EduardHercigonja i Benedikta Zelić-Bučan, i to u tekstovimakoje donosimo na stranici o kulturnopovijesnimraščlanama. U ostalim je vidovima Budakov radpregledan prikaz višeslojne problematike područjakoje «Ljetopis popaDukljanina» naziva Crvenom Hrvatskom.

KULTURA HUMSKO-DUKLJANSKOG PODRUČJA DO KRAJA 12. STOLJEĆA​

Mani se budalo pisanja gluposti, idi na spavanje