Батонов устанак

У нашој историографији се периоду римског освајања Илирика не посвећује пажња која би требала, ту чак постоји убјеђење да се то освајање одиграло брзо уз не превелик отпор локалних народа.
Једно погрешно убеђење, освајање Илрика се дешавало у дугом временском раздобљу, више од два вијека уз сталне ратове, борбе и побуне локалних трачких, илирских и келтских народа.
Селмедин Месиховић је у својој књизи Битка за Илирик (овдје) на стр. 80-81
Bitka za Ilirik Mesihovic Salmedin 080-081.jpg

приложио преглед чак 28 ратова и војних похода у времену од првог Илирског рата 229-228.год.п.н.е. до 16. године п.н.е.
Најјачи отпор Римљанима су пружали Скордисци, који су настањивали сјеверозападни простор данашње Србије и сјевероисточни простор данашње Српске.
800px-National_museum_in_Požarevac,_Scordisci_warrior.jpg

Скордијски ратник, Народни музеј у Пожаревцу

Оно што је важно нагласити а то примјећује и Месиховић у својој књизи на страни 79 је да од првих ратова па све до увођења принципата, Рим се никад није сукобио са илирским и трачким племенима удруженим у неки ратни савез или други вид заједничке организације, већ су то увијек били ратови ограничени против појединих народа, уз то међу тим племенима владало је нејединство и у рату Рим би могао рачунати на помоћ и подршку комшијских племена.
У томе је значај Батона који је први успио ујединити више илирских племена на заједничко дјеловање, који је дигао на устанак против Рима читав Илирик, на његову несрећу ударио је на Рим када је био на врхунцу моћи.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Римљани су на гушењу устанка ангажовали огромну војску. Салмедин Месиховић у књизи Битка за Илирик бројности римске војске (овдје) у борбама против устаника посветио је стр. 374-394. На стр.375 угрубо даје процјену на основу писања Светонија и Велеја Петеркула;
Bitka za Ilirik 375.jpg

По тим записима ангаћовано је 15 легија (ПС; ту је 10 легија које су се груписале у Сисцији и 5 легија са истока, из правца Сирмијума и Македоније) које би у пуном бројном саставу бројале збирно 90.000 легионара, исто толико помоћних снага и више од 10.000 легионара, тако да биримске снаге могле бројати чак 190.000 војника.
На стр. 380-382 је дао осврт на састав легија и број ветерана
Bitka za Ilirik 380-382.jpg
а од странице 383 бави се "добровољцима" и помоћним снагама.
Када је у питању састав легија није сигурно да су оне биле пуног бројног састава, свака са 6.000 легионара, вјероватније је тај број мањи, тако да је 15 легија вјерованије имало збирно у саставу 70-75.000 легионара.
Ово су свакако огромне снаге ангажоване на гушењу побуне јер је Рим у том времену имао укупно 28 легија што ће рећи да су на гушењу побуне ангажовали више од пола својих војних ефектива.
Више од 10.000 легионара помиње Велеј Петеркул, Светоније их не помиње, није јасно да ли су они били придружени и попунили саставе легија или су дјеловали као самосталне формације.
Ветерани су легионари који би одслужили војну службу (16-20 година, како кад) и били би задржани 4 године као резерва, злу не требало. А овдје је баш требало. Овдје (ово је моја примједба) постоји једна ствар коју ваља знати. Наиме, 13.год.п.н.е. Октавијан је смањио године службовања легионара на 16, да би 6.год.н.е. (значи баш у години устанка) била поново враћена скужба легионара на 20 година. Шта то значи? Па значи да у времену од 6.-10.год.н.е., значи у вријеме трајања побуне, није било отпуштања легионара из војне службе и нисмо у том времену имали нових ветерана. Односно, ветерани које помиње Велеј Петеркул су они који су "часно отпуштени" коју годину прије избијања побуне, а можда је то разлог што их Светоније не помиње.

Ту су и помоћне јединице, савезничке војне формације из Тракије и "добровољци". Под појмом "добровољци" су вјероватно војници-либертини, тј они који су стекли римско грађанство само као услов да буду уновачени, некад би ту били и ослобођеници. Имали би слабије наоружање и опрему од легионара, краћу војну обуку од пар мјесеци и свакако нису били квалитетом равни легионарима. У борби би били постављени у прве редове, и из разлога да не би могли напустити бојиште, у случају жештоких окршаја били би на неки начин потрошни људски материјал, ако претекну добро и јест.
Ту се помиње још 70 кохорти помоћних снага, оних који немају римско грађанство + савезничке трупе из Тракије.

Могући број од 190.000 војника који су ангажовани на гушењу побуне је врло вјероватно преувеличан, број легионара у 15 легија би могао бити 70-75.000 (са ? да ли на то додати или не оних више од 10.000 ветерана), број ангажованих помоћних и савезничких трупа је по свему судећи већи од 50.000 бораца, могуће близу броја легионара, што би значило да је на гушењу побуне било ангажовано укупно, по некој реалној процјени, око 120-150.000 војника.

Без премца највећи војни ефективи које је Рим ангажовао на гушењу неке побуне икад, а и највећи војни ефективи које је Рим ангаћовао од времена пунских ратова.
 
На другом птф форумаш suave (овдје) је подсјетио на италијански филм All'ombra delle aquile из 1966.године који обрађује Батонов устанак;
Батона глуми поодавно преминули српски глумац Александар Гаврић. За овај филм сазнадох мало прије, мало сам погледао летимично неколико сцена, није да обећава уважавајући и вријеме када је снимљен, али и због неколико српских глумаца и што је (вјероватно) једини играни филм који обрађује ову тему, вриједи да га поменемо.
 
Једна занимљива публикација (овдје) посвећена 2010ој годишњици великог Батоновог устанка;
2010 years anniversary of Great Illyrian Revolt. Erupted on 6 AD

SM_footer-.jpg


The publication is targeted primarily to colleagues reenactors from the ancient Roman period.
It's a little known event which is not very popular among fans of ancient history. I pay particular attention to this round anniversary because there is evidence that the legion which we recreate LEGIO IIII SCYTHICA participated in military operations related to its suppression as well the consequences of this revolt significantly affect the attitude of Imperial Rome in its future behavior toward the Roman Limes.
We should not forget that this is happening in perhaps the most romantic period of the Roman Empire during the reign of Emperor Augustus.
This period inspired many writers and producers to be creative in this period and create emblematic works such as novels and movie productions.
Of course there is many comprehensive publications on the matter which I will quote here as I will not be fully comprehensive because not all details in the publications are important for the topic. I will focus myself on the reasons for the outbreak of the uprising,legionnaires equipment,the military operations and the consequences associated with it.
Last but not least is interesting and descriptions of the involvement of the Thracian auxiliary areas, at this time Thracian tribes were vassal of Rome and the fact that Remetalk the first sent significant army to support the Roman legions talks about loyalty to the Thracian tribes to ROME at this period.
The situation has changed when reinforcements began to arrive from limes along the middle and lower stream of the Danube. From Naissus / Nis / arrived 5 legions : IV Scythica, V Macedonica, VII Paterna, VIII Augusta and XI-th/, led by Cecilia North and Plautius Silvanus and Thracian cavalry sent by the king Remetalk (which I mentioned above).
pic_1.jpg

Trophy which depicts defeated Dalmatians and Pannonian, with different weapon and armor. Most likely dedicated to Tiberius in case of suppression of the Great Illyrian Revolt.
Published in the book “Finds of the Roman Military Equipment in Croatia. Editor: Ivan Radman-Livaja”
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
I will begin with citation regarding participation of our Legion IIII Scythica in The Great Illyrian Revolt from:
The Archaeology of Roman Southern Pannonia by Ivan Radman :
“The state of research and selected problems in the Croatian part of the Roman province of Pannonia”
www.academia.edu
“Wilkes assumed that VII, VIII Augusta and XI legion could have been
under the command of Caecina Severus at that time, while IV Scythica and V Macedonica
came from the East, but not all authors agree with this opinion...
… IV Scythica was probably one of Caecina’s legions, because it seems to have been permanently stationed in Moesia during the ruleof Augustus.
… We can assume that these were Tiberius’ IX, XIII, XIV, XV and XX,as well as
IV Scythica, V Macedonica , VII, VIII and XI that arrived from Moesia…”

Map of The great Illyrian rebellion 6,9 AD
pic_2.jpg

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Comprehensive quote from publication:Archaeological Traces of the Pannonian Revolt 6 –9 AD:
Evidence and Conjectures*
Ivan Radman-Livaja – Marko Dizdar


“Sed nuntiata Illyrici defectione transiit ad curam novi belli, quod gravissimum omnium externorum bellorum post Punica, per quindecim legiones paremque auxiliorum copiam triennio gessit in magnis omnium rerum difficultatibus summaque frugum inopia1.”
With these words, Suetonius did not leave us much information about the Pannonian revolt but one must admit that this dramatic sentence gives to the modern reader a rather clear idea how the Romans themselves perceived that war. One might argue that Suetonius was prone to exaggeration and that it is unlikely that the Pannonian and Dalmatian insurgents ever represented a real threat to the Italian mainland.
Nevertheless, considering the manpower and the material resources engaged to quell the revolt, one cannot deny that Augustus took that threat very seriously. The gravity of the situation in 6 AD is after all confirmed by other sources, most notably by one historian who personally took part in that war, Velleius Paterculus, who also claims that the rebel forces, which according to his estimates numbered hundreds of thousands of men, planned to launch an offensive against Italy2. It would thus appear that this belief was widespread among Romans at that time.
When the revolt began in 6 AD and when the grim news reached Rome,the authorities as well as the Italian population probably shared the belief that a large host of Illyrian barbarians was heading towards Rome and that desperate measures were to be taken in order to save Italy.
One should not underestimate the strength of rumours, which could easily and rapidly spread over a large area, causing panic among civilians and military alike. The troops raised by Pannonian and Dalmatian insurgents could certainly not match in any way the army led by Hannibal but in the eyes of the Italian population it was the first time after two centuries that a foreign enemy seemed to be strong enough to defeat Roman legions and march towards Rome.
This is why Suetonius’ comparison is actually quite pertinent and understandable…”


pic_3.jpg
pic_5.jpg

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Comprehensive quote from publication: The Archaeology of Roman Southern Pannonia
The state of research and selected problems in the Croatian part of the Roman province of Pannonia Ivan Radman-Livaja
Edited by: Branka Migotti

„The news on the uprising in Illyricum reached Tiberius’s headquarters in Carnuntum just before the beginning of the war against the Marcomanni in AD 6. The timing of the uprising was perfect because the greater part of the Roman troops stationed in Illyricum was temporarily deployed in the north under the command of Tiberius, so that they could participate in the mentioned campaign. The Daesidiates were joined by the Breuci, probably the strongest tribe in southern Pannonia, led by another Bato. Many smaller tribes also joined the rebels and they embarked on an all round massacre of the Roman citizens in the area. Velleius expressly mentions traders and military units who had the bad luck to be caught isolated in the midst of what had suddenly become an enemy territory. The rebels did not stop at killing all the Romans they could lay their hands on, but immediately moved on to larger settlements and even neighbouring provinces. Velleius make only a passing mention of the looting raids toward Macedonia and the preparations for the attack against Italy, but Cassius Dio explicitly mentions the attacks against Salona and Sirmium. It seems, therefore, that the rebels’ plans were far more ambitious and far-reaching than merely killing and expelling the Romans from their tribal areas. Considering the circumstances, the Roman reaction was quick and quite effective. The Romans who happened to be in the settlements taken by the rebels could not, of course, be helped, and their fate certainly contributed to the panic that spread all the way to Italy…. Dio’s description does not make it quite clear whether Caecina Severus broke the siege of Sirmium or whether he actually stopped the Breuci from approaching Sirmium, because the author explicitly states that Caecina Severus defeated the Breuci at the Drava River, which is quite a distance from Sirmium. It is possible that Caecina Severus broke the siege of the town and then drove the attackers to the Drava, where the Breuci decided to confront them in the battleield,and were eventually defeated. Salona was besieged by the Daesidiates, but the town was well defended so the majority of the rebel army, headed by its wounded leader Bato, withdrew to the hinterland, although looters continued to raid hte ocastal raea lal hte way ot Apolonia. According ot the written sources, the rebels soon embarked on another offensive, despite their defeat. After abandoning the siege of Salona, the Daesidiates tried to intercept the troops of Valerius Messala, but the Romans, although outnumbered, managed to defeat them. These were probably the troops that Tiberius had sent as reinforcements to Siscia, but it is not clear whether they were attacked on their way to Siscia or only after they had set up camp there and then embarked on an attack against the rebels. This defeat did not discourage the Daesidiates, as they headed east to meet set off for Sirmium. They set up camp on Alma Mons (Fruška gora in Syrmia), where they began preparations for the attack against Sirmium.

pic_6.jpg
pic_7.jpg


Caecina Severus, probably a very capable commander, sent the allied Thracian cavalry against them, led by king Rhoemetalces, in order to prevent them from attacking Sirmium. The Thracians succeeded and they drove off the rebels thus concluding the last big military operation in AD 6. At the year’s end the Romans were in possession of the two most important towns: Siscia,defended by Tiberius’ troops with reinforcements from Italy,and Sirmium, controlled by the army of Caecina Severus, as well as in control of the coastal towns.

pic_8.jpg
pic_9.jpg


The rebels obviously controlled the entire territory in between, but the Romans deinitely had the strategic advantage and they seemed to have believed that in the spring they would be able to crush the rebellion, owing to the numerous forces they had gathered. They started an offensive in AD 7, probably as soon as the weather conditions permitted. Three Moesian legions under Caecina Severus, two legions redeployedfrom Asia Minor led by Marcus Plautius Silvanus, 52 and the Thracian cavalry led by king Rhoemetalces, set off for Siscia from Sirmium, no doubt to secure the Sava River, the main communication route across Illyricum.



pic_10.jpg
pic_11.jpg


The Romans, whose numbers gave them great confidence, probably were not too cautious and fell into an ambush in the marshy area known as Hiulca Palus (but also as Volcae Paludes), somewhere in today’s south-eastern Slavonia. Despite their heavy losses they managed to break through and make it to Siscia, where the largest Roman military force since the time of the Civil Wars had just gathered.53 As such a large concentration of troops probably created logistical problems, some of the troops were sent again to Moesia where their presence was, after all, needed because of the Dacian and Sarmatian looting raids…”

52 Wilkes assumed that VII, VIII Augusta and XI legion could have been
under the command of Caecina Severus at that time, while IV Scythica
and V Macedonica came from the East, but not all authors agree with this
opinion. There are even doubts as to whether Caecina Severus took all
three Moesian legions along on this campaign, and only two legions in
Caecina’s and Plautius’s joint forces are assumed to have actually been
Moesian. IV Scythica was probably one of Caecina’s legions, because
it seems to have been permanently stationed in Moesia during the rule
of Augustus. V Macedonica and the VII legion were most probably
transferred from Galatia under the command of Plautius Silvanus, but the
question of the VIII and XI legion remains open. As for the VIII legion,
depending on the author in question, it is assumed that it may have been
stationed in Illyricum, Moesia, in the East, in northern Africa or Egypt,
while the XI legion was most probably stationed in the Balkans at the
time in question, but it is impossible to say exactly where. Plautius’s third
legion (if the assumption on three Eastern legions is correct in the irst
place) could perhaps be the VIII legion, but it could also have been one
of the 3 Moesian legions, together with the IV and XI. The question also
remains open as to the legion that Caecina Severus could have perhaps
left behind in Moesia;

http://peter.mackenzie.org

The Romans soon captured one Illyrian city after another, eventually besieging Andetrium, where Bato the Daesitiate and his forces were positioned. After heavy casualties on both sides, Tiberius finally succeeded in taking the city.
The final resistance took place in the city of Arduba. As the Roman legions were storming the city walls, the women threw themselves and their children into the fire that had engulfed the city. Facing defeat, Bato the Daesitiate surrendered to the Roman in 9 AD, asking for lives of his warriors to be spared. Asked by Tiberius why he had revolted against him, Bato the Daesitiate answered: "You Romans are alone to blame because you sent the wolves to guard your flocks and not shepherds." Bato the Daesitiate was finally sent to live in exile in Ravenna.

pic_12.jpg
pic_14.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

… What can we say after this short survey and can any conclusion be reached at all? The answer is not an easy one…One must admit that the available archaeological evidence for the Pannonian revolt is scant at best, especially when we compare it to the data gathered in Germany for the same period.
The only way to improve our knowledge is to increase research in that particular field. A thorough prospection of given areas might permit us to find other Roman camps.
The Roman conquest of southern Pannonia and the early period of Romanization of that area are an exciting field of research and one can only hope that we will not have to wait too long before increasing considerably our knowledge about that fascinating period.
The remarkable thing are the huge army that is dislocated in this province!This happened for the first time since the aftermath of the Battle of Cannae two centuries earlier. At one moment, in the winter AD 6-7, 10 legions were deployed and an equivalent number of auxilia (70 cohortes, 10 alae and more than 10,000 veterans) In addition, they were assisted by a large number of Thracian troops deployed by their king Rhoemetalces, a Roman amicus (ally)—a grand total of some 100,000 men.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

Once this is a publication aimed primarily to the reenactment society. Hoping to be noticed by the responsible public officials of countries got involved in this affair: Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia on which territory mainly are develop these important ancient history events. I will present and appropriate equipment that should be used by participants in a eventual event.Of course I can not be completely comprehensive because it is impossible in such publications. But with these pictures and explanations (I hope) I will give the correct directions. These are most relevant personages of legionnaire from Augusta Tiberius period. The first quarter of the first century A.D.

Appropriate helmets:
Hagenau type helmets are not the only type of Roman helmets found in Sisak. Two Weisenau type helmets discovered in the Kupa river at Sisak could perhaps belong to an early period. Both can broadly be dated to the first half of the 1st century AD, but it is not easy to date them more precisely within that time period. Nevertheless it is not entirely unlikely that they could have been manufactured at the beginning of the century. One, although quite damaged,still shows traces of a lavish decoration (fig. 6).
Both the Rugvica and Bok helmet find their analogies with the Hagenau type helmet from Haltern and it is therefore not unlikely that both were worn by soldiers who fought against the Pannonian rebels from 6 to 9 AD 7. The second helmet is better preserved but shows no traces of rich decoration (fig. 7). H. R. Robinson dated it to the first quarter of the 1st century AD, but the developed neck guard of this helmet incites us to be more prudent in dating. However, one can not dismiss the possibility that it is a late Augustan mode.
Quote from publication:Archaeological Traces of the Pannonian Revolt 6 –9 AD:
Evidence and Conjectures*
Ivan Radman-Livaja – Marko Dizdar

“Despite being numerous,
the finds from Sisak are perhaps the least likely to
be connected with any certainty to the Pannonian
revolt from 6 to 9 AD. It is not due to chronological
issues because we believe that all of them might
have been in use during the Pannonian
revolt. It
should also be pointed out that we did not mention
many finds from Siscia whose dating is more uncertain
or very broad, like spears, javelins, arrows, lead
shots, fragments of chain and scale armour, harness
equipment pieces, etc., although
they could have
been used during the Pannonian
war as well. The
problem with finds from Siscia, or we should better
say the difficulty of connecting
finds from Siscia to
the Pannonian revolt lies in the fact that this place
was an important military garrison from 35 BC till
at least 43 AD when the 9th legion left for Britain. “
citation (Archaeological Museum,
zagreb; photo courtesy
Prof Radman-Livaja)
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

More information on this helmet and the story of its creation:
http://legio-iiii-scythica.com
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
Some of the Coolus helmets recommended for this period.
Quote from publication:Archaeological Traces of the Pannonian Revolt 6 –9 AD:
Evidence and Conjectures*

Ivan Radman-Livaja – Marko Dizdar
The Obrežje camp is placed close to the Sava river and among other tasks it must have been used to protect and control the supply line to Italy. Obviously,as long as the results of the excavations are not fully published, one will have to wait for more elaborate and far-reaching conclusions, but for the time being and considering the preliminary report,it seems quite likely that this camp was in use during the period which interests us more particularly,i. e. between 6 and 9 AD, quite probably as a supplyand repair base.
Not too far away, in the Sava river near Podsused,a Roman helmet of the Hagenau type (Coolus C) (fig. 2) was found, dated by H. R. Robinson to the late 1st century BC and the early 1st century AD. Although his early dating might be a matter of discussion,it is not at all unconceivable that the helmet could have been used during the Pannonian revolt. The incised inscription on the neck guard (CENTVRIA) TAVRI C. MESTRI CINNA(E) clearly shows that this helmet belonged to a Roman citizen, presumably a legionary.
Less than 20 km away, another Roman helmet (fig. 3) was found in the Sava river, near the village of Rugvica. It is also a Hagenau type and considering its small neck guard, it is quite probably an early production model. It could thus belong to the Augustan period. It is interesting to point out that four soldiers have left their names incised on the helmet:(CENTVRIA) C. TRVTTIDI, GAL(EA) C. OFELLI; (CENTVRIA) NAIVI, Q. TVL(L)I; (CENTVRIA) SEI,LVCRETI; (CENTVRIA) HEDI, L. PAPIRI. Three of them bear the so called duo nomina of the first manner,i. e. the praenomen and the nomen, a detail that would also point to an earlier dating.
Following the course of the Sava river, we arrive to the main Roman base of that time in western Pannonia,Siscia. A large number of Roman military artefacts have been found there and some of them can be dated with more or less certainty to the Augustan period. First of all, there are several helmets. One of them (fig. 4). Another Hagenau type helmet (fig. 5) was found during the dredging of the Sava river bed at Martinska Ves close to Sisak. Although this piece has a somewhat more developed neck guard compared to the last two specimens, it is also an earlier type and it could have been in use during the Pannonian revolt.It also has an incised inscription,(CENTVRIA) LVCCI(I), VARRONIS8.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
The historical period (late Augustan period) is such that in legionnaires equipment dominated coolus helmets and chain mail armor.But the gallic helmets (some of the models) and lorica segmentata (the early version Kalkriese ,Vindonissa and Corbridge models) are relevant also.
pic_25a.jpg
pic_25.jpg

I can not deny the existence of mass hinges which are also among the many artifacts that have been described as the first centuries specimens. These are so far unpublished material (my gift for my FB friends) form lorica segmentata parts from Published in the book “Finds of the Roman Military Equipment in Croatia. Editor: Ivan Radman-Livaja” .Оf course this is an insignificant part of the materials relate to Lorica Seg. that are published in book.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Аn interesting (in its content) collective coinage findings described in: Archaeological Traces of the Pannonian Revolt 6 –9 AD:

Ivan Radman-Livaja – Marko Dizdar
In 1886, a hoard of Roman denarii (fig. 18) was found on an unknown spot somewhere between Osijek and Valpovo. The head of the Archaeological Department of the National Museum in Zagreb,J. Brunšmid was informed about the discovery. According to the data Brunšmid managed to gather about that hoard, most coins were late Republican, dating to the 1st century BC with a few pieces from the 2nd century BC, as well as at least five coins minted by Augustus from 19 till 2 BC28.Those are obviously the most interesting coins for our subject because they provide us with a terminus ante quem non for the deposition. The hoard was certainly not hidden before 2 BC and considering the dramatic events which struck that area in 6 AD, we are inclined to believe that it is precisely at that moment that the owner of that money was compelled to hide it, in the hope to retrieve it later, when the situation calms down.This obviously did not happen and we may wonder about the fate of that man. One cannot forget the words of Velleius Paterculus when he describes the massacres of Roman citizens, most notably traders and military personnel who found themselves isolated at the outbreak of the revolt in the areas controlled by the rebels. One of those unfortunate souls might have tried to preserve his savings while trying to escape the wrath of the vengeful Breuci. It is not at all unlikely that this hoard was hidden by a Roman trader or perhaps a Roman soldier. It is after all not a negligible amount of money. Of course, it might have also been hidden few years later by a local, when Roman troops were retaking the area, probably by the most brutal means imaginable. Be it as it may, the years 6 to 9 AD seem to be the most plausible time frame for the deposition of that hoard.
pic_26.jpg

Here I would like to make a parallel with a similar coinage finding from place Near the town Olfen in Germany. Near the town Olfen in Germany. But in a small amount. The important thing is that along with the coins was found a Roman helmet Montefortino type model-C !

http://www.spiegel.del

From the publication we understand that finding (it is assumed) is from about year 7 B.C. at the time of Drvsvs- 9 A.D. (the father of Claudius).
Quote "Based on the findings, the scientists a precise dating. So is the compared to other Roman camps lip rather small plant have passed 11-7 BC.Consequently the camp was initial from the time of Roman occupation of Germania east of the Rhine and was used in the time of the Drusus campaign"


pic_27.jpg


Italian language:
http://ilfattostorico.com

The question whether it is appropriate for this historic period to be used Montefortino helmet!? According to me and my humble opinion these early Montefortino helmets have not disappeared magically and possibly small amounts of them have been used in late August period. This is about tolerance of approximately 7 or 8 years (8,7 BC till 7,8 AD).
Publication from the Hermann AUKTION catalog.This figure shows the legionnaire from earliest August period. A good example.

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

pic_30.jpg

I will share one of my idea on which I thinking about from some time ago. It is regarding the finds from Village Karanovo -Municipality of Nova Zagora.Thracian Tomb in Bulgaria's archeological complex "East Hill" I century A.D. which includes Aureus from Imp.Tiberivs and much more artifacts exactly dated with the numismatic material. The latest coin is a Aureus from Imp.Tiberivs. The other coins are silver republican denarius.
There are a few guidelines by which I'm headed. Most importantly, it is buried Thracian warrior serving in the Roman army in the proven historical period (with this coin finds). By the weapon that was found in the burial is evident that he was and horseman. So it is entirely possible that this Thracian warrior is involved in suppressing of the Illyrian Revolt. It is explicitly described that a large Thracian cavalry participated in this event , sent appropriate for this military campaign from the Thracian king Remetalk.

pic_1.jpg

Рељеф који приказује поражене Делмате и Панонце, са различитим оружјем и оклопом, посвећен Тиберију након гушења Батонове побуне.

pic_16.jpg

Кацига коју су користили центуриони у вријеме Батоновог устанка. Чува се у музеју у Сиску.

pic_18.jpg
pic_20.jpg

Сачувани примјерци војне опреме из времена Батоновог устанка нађени у ријеци Сави код Сиска.
 
Necu da menjam smer diskusije, samo bi dodao da je postojao i jos jedan anticki Bato – dardanski (206-176 BC).
Znaci imamo tri istorijska “Ilirska” Bata, u tri razlicita plemena, na tri drugacija podrucija, i svi su vodje u ratovima protiv ozbiljnih sila (Rim, Makedonija).

“U srpskom jeziku, prema Rečniku Matice srpske, bata (ili bato) jeste:

1. „naziv odmila za brata, devera, muško dete; ređe za oca”, zatim

2. (samo u vokativu) „kao uzrečica (često sa zamenicom moj) drug, prijatelj” (npr. „… inženjer, moj bato, pa se opet ne pravi važan”), i, najzad,

3. „odvažan, hrabar čovek, delija, đida”.”

I vise od 2000 godine kasnije, na istoj teritoriji, jos uvek se koristi ime (nadimak) Bato.

Da li postoji veza izmedju srpskog imena Bata/Bato i ove titule/imena slavnih Ilirskih vojvoda?
 
Necu da menjam smer diskusije, samo bi dodao da je postojao i jos jedan anticki Bato – dardanski (206-176 BC).
Znaci imamo tri istorijska “Ilirska” Bata, u tri razlicita plemena, na tri drugacija podrucija, i svi su vodje u ratovima protiv ozbiljnih sila (Rim, Makedonija).

“U srpskom jeziku, prema Rečniku Matice srpske, bata (ili bato) jeste:

1. „naziv odmila za brata, devera, muško dete; ređe za oca”, zatim

2. (samo u vokativu) „kao uzrečica (često sa zamenicom moj) drug, prijatelj” (npr. „… inženjer, moj bato, pa se opet ne pravi važan”), i, najzad,

3. „odvažan, hrabar čovek, delija, đida”.”

I vise od 2000 godine kasnije, na istoj teritoriji, jos uvek se koristi ime (nadimak) Bato.

Da li postoji veza izmedju srpskog imena Bata/Bato i ove titule/imena slavnih Ilirskih vojvoda?

Baton.
 
Da li postoji veza izmedju srpskog imena Bata/Bato i ove titule/imena slavnih Ilirskih vojvoda?
Milan Budimir je dokazao da ime Bato pripada pregrckom balkanskom jezickom supstratu sa znacenjem brz/hitar.

Ime Bato se po prvi put javlja u Ilijadi u obliku pridevske imenice Βατιειαν.
Zatim kod kirenskih vladara, u obliku Βαττоς
Bato je bio dardanski kralj, posvedocen kod Livija, Bato Longari filius rex Dardanorum
Potom su postojala dva ilirska Batona.
I na kraju u rimsko doba, takodje na Balkanu je posvedocen Bato, preko natpisa Celer qui et Bato

Citat iz Budimirove rasprave Grci i Pelasti:

На једном латинском натпису из доба царства читамо Bato qui et Celer. Кад ce тај начин изражавања пореди са паралелним изразима Itrius qui et Secundianus или Ειρηναυος οζ και Πακατος?, излази да име Бато казује исто што и његова interpretatio latina ''брз, хитар"


Pogledaj njegove rasprave, https://www.scribd.com/document/14959097/Milan-Budimir-Grci-i-Pelasti, https://pdfslide.tips/download/link/milan-budimir-o-etnickom-odnosu-dardanaca-prema-ilirima
 
Овај део историје је у српској историографији заппстављен, а не би требао бити, већ сам примијетио да чак постоји убјеђење да се то освајање одиграло брзо уз не превелик отпор локалних народа.
Погрешно убјеђење, освајање Илрика се дешавало у дугом временском раздобљу, више од два вијека уз сталне ратове, борбе и побуне локалних трачких, илирских и келтских народа.
Како сам горе примијетио, Салмедин Месиховић је у својој књизи Битка за Илирик (овдје) приложио преглед чак 28 ратова и војних похода у два вијека, у периоду када је Рим настојао овладати и ставити под контролу простор Илирика.
Имамо и видео прилог тзв првог Илирског рата који се одвијао нешто више од два вијека прије Батоновог устанка;
 
@Khal Drogo pročita li Žarkovu knjigu?
Не, када је се докопам и ако буде доступна у дигиталној форми, користећи и наводе из те књиге и друге могуће отворим тему (рецимо "Рим, прелаз из касне републике у еру принципата"), но о том, потом. А и тако сам тренутно фокусиран и на друге обавезе и када је историја у питању, на друге теме.
 
Не, када је се докопам и ако буде доступна у дигиталној форми, користећи и наводе из те књиге и друге могуће отворим тему (рецимо "Рим, прелаз из касне републике у еру принципата"), но о том, потом. А и тако сам тренутно фокусиран и на друге обавезе и када је историја у питању, на друге теме.

Pa okačio sam je još onomad celu u pdf-u.
 
Posle Batonovog ustanka Balkan se demografski nije oporavio ni do dana današnjeg.

Ниси ни свестан колико је дубоко и значајно, и какве све поруке носи у себи та реченица коју си рекао...1000-е страница повести, су садржане у тој једној реченици....
Званичној повести, које се састоји од делућа истине, разбацаних без икаквог реда, полуистина највише, и нешто мање чистих лажи, више као зачин, уз обиље прећуткивања и заташкавања, овог последњег највише...
 

Back
Top