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Vlasi...???

Andjela

Elita
Poruka
23.875
Znam, da je bilo tema o Vlasima, ali...
Ko su Vlasi u Srbiji?
Sta je sa Vlasima, koji su ziveli u BiH i HR?

Na ovoj temi, pored svih ucesnika foruma, mogu i "gospoda Bosnjaci", da iznesu svoje tvrdnje i da ih potkrepe dokazima (ako ih uopste imaju), ko su Vlasi i da nam objasne, kako su se to Vlasi posrbili...
Nadam se da ce biti zanimljivih teorija, koje se mogu potkrepiti dokazima... :)
Unapred hvala
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.401
Znam, da je bilo tema o Vlasima, ali...
Ko su Vlasi u Srbiji?
Sta je sa Vlasima, koji su ziveli u BiH i HR?

Na ovoj temi, pored svih ucesnika foruma, mogu i "gospoda Bosnjaci", da iznesu svoje tvrdnje i da ih potkrepe dokazima (ako ih uopste imaju), ko su Vlasi i da nam objasne, kako su se to Vlasi posrbili...
Nadam se da ce biti zanimljivih teorija, koje se mogu potkrepiti dokazima... :)
Unapred hvala
Sve je rečeno na ranijim dobrim temama: http://forum.krstarica.com/showthread.php/224395-Vlasi

To je moja. Jedan drugi forumaš je otvorio jednu slično kvalitetnu, ali poveznicu nisam našao. Neka neko drugi potpomogne
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.401
Fortis nigdje ne podržava tezu da su oni Latini. :think: Naprotiv, upravo dokazuje da su to u pitanju Sloveni! :rtfm:

Iz knjige Milorada Ekmečića, Historiography by the Garb only:

It is still questionable whether the Slav appellation "Vlah" was applied to all persons speaking Latin or a Latinate language really referred to a homogeneous ethnic group. In Slovenia and Poland even today the Italians are called Vlachs, and that name is even today applied to the citizens of the Rumanian province Wallacchia, of Valois and Wales. It is obviously not a Slav word as it is held to be. Did the entire Illyrian population during the disintegration of the Roman Empire use the same Latinized variant, and is the assertion justified that they all constituted a homogeneous ethnic group? [..] Soranzo was a native of the province of Veneto, inhabited by the Veneti, an official in the Roman Curia, and his descriptions of the Balkans were written on the ground of possible plans to stir up the Christians to rebel and expand the union. His description is rather a testimony that the population under discussion was not a separate ethnic group but a nomadic community of cattlebreeders which in its turn was not an ethnic group, that its language was Slavicized, that its retaining of the original name was a social phenomenon. In his book of 1598 ("L’Ottomano. Dove si dà pieno ragguaglio, non solamente della potenza del Signor de Turchi… ma ancora di varii popoli, siti, città, e viaggi con altri particolari di stato, necessarii a sapersi"), Soranzo says about the Morlachi and Vlachs: "But having mentioned the Morlachi, I would not like to leave them without saying who they are. In those areas all Christian inhabitans of the mountains are called Morlachi, in particular those living in the mountain in Lika being situated between Novigrad and Senj. In principle, the Slav word ‘Morlakija’ has emerged since the Barbarians came to Italy, because when passing through Wallacchia, they gave that name even to peoples living at the Adriatic Sea, seeming to mean that they lived at the sea coast. Because by the names ‘Vulachi’, or ‘Vuloschi’ – the way the Turks use the name ‘Franks’ for the French – pass all Italians."[17]
 

gost 226460

Iskusan
Poruka
5.050
Fortis nigdje ne podržava tezu da su oni Latini. :think: Naprotiv, upravo dokazuje da su to u pitanju Sloveni! :rtfm:

Iz knjige Milorada Ekmečića, Historiography by the Garb only:
Ma pusti ga ...Nego imao sam priliku videti spise AU monarhije gde jasno pise o Srpskom plemstvu u vojnoj krajini ,svrstano u grupu kao Juzno Slovenskom ...Ne pominju se nikakvi latini ili vlasi ....
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.401
Koga briga za Ekmečića?
Nikoga. Ovdje citira doslovno riječi jednog od najbitnijih naših istorijskih izvora iz poznog XVII/XVIII stoljeća, Lazara Soranca. On je bio venecijanski konzul u Istanbulu i bavio se istraživanjem Osmanskog carstva.



Njegovo kapitalno djelo OSMANLIJA je napisano 1598. godine; to citiramo!

Jesi li ti tekst koji sam postavio uopšte pročitao? Mislim da nisi, jer da jesi, primijetio bi da on Ekmečić citira Soranca...
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.401
Stvarno, na kojem mjestu?
Pa Fortis to navodi prilikom opisivanja jezika Morlaka. Ovo su riječi koje kod njih nalazimo:

* opanak

* gusle

* krsna slava

Fortis otkriva da Morlaci govore čistim srpskim (ili srpskohrvatskim, kako god) jezikom i pokazuje da su im običaji tipični južnoslovenski i da se ni po čemu ne odvajaju od Južnih Slovena.
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.401
Na kojem mjest jezik naziva srpskim?

:hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:
? Je li ti čitaš sebe? :lol:

Da podsjetim sve, o ovome je još prije dvije godine bila jedna velika rasprava, dok je DUKLJANIN išao pod nalogom Alberto Fortis. Ovdje napisah:

Ono što te ja pitam da mi navedeš jednu jedinu karakteristiku dalmatinskih Morlaka koja je zajednička sa Romanima, a po mogućnosti, razdvaja ih od Srba (odnosno Slovena).
A u odgovoru koji je uslijedio, današnji DUKLJANIN tvrdi:

Sve, sve je različito, pa praktično sve, fino je običaje opisao Fortis, ti običaji nemaju veze sa običajima izvornih Srba - današnjih Lala.
Jeste, jeste. Morlaci kažu opanak - a Srbi opendrk! :hahaha: :rotf:

Sa te teme je nestao nakon što je vidio da mu nema druge, po ko zna koji put.
 

Mrdaywalker

Domaćin
Banovan
Poruka
4.987
Knjiga The Serbs - autor Tim Judah.

On navodi podatke iz putopisa Albera Fortisa u 18 vijeku u kome se kaze da nikada nije cuo za tamosnje stanovnistvo da se naziva Srbima ili Hrvatima vec samo Vlasima



Hrvatski historicar Ivo Goldstein objasnjava proces Hrvatizacije katolickih Vlaha, obrnuta situacija je sa pravoslavnim Vlasima koji su kasnije postali Srbi.
 
Poslednja izmena:

Mrdaywalker

Domaćin
Banovan
Poruka
4.987
Noel Malcolm o Vlasima u Bosni


The Vlachs in Bosnia by Noel Malcolm



In the defters of the 1470s and 1480s they can be seen spreading into central and north-central Bosnia, in the regions round Visoko and Maglaj: soon after 1476, for example, roughly 800 Vlach families were settled in the Maglaj district, accompanied by two Orthodox priests. The number of Vlachs in north-central and north-east Bosnia continued to grow over the next fifty years, and they began to spread into north-west Bosnia too.

During the wars of the early sixteenth century more areas of northern Bosnia became depopulated as Catholics fled into Hapsburg territory. Since it was particularly important for the Ottomans not to leave land empty close to the military border, there were large new influxes of Vlach settlers from Hercegovina and Serbia. Further movements into this area took place throughout the sixteenth century; plague, as well as war, left demographic gaps which needed to be filled.

As early as 1530, when the Habsburg official Benedict Kuripe?ic travelled through Bosnia, he was able to report that the country was inhabited by three peoples, One was the Turks, who ruled "with great tyranny" over the Christians. Another was "the old Bosnians, who are of the Roman Catholic faith." And the third were "Serbs, who call themselves Vlachs . . . They came from Smederovo and Belgrade." So important was the Vlach element in the creation of this Bosnian Orthodox population that, three centuries later, the term "Vlach" was still being used in Bosnia to mean "member of the Orthodox Church."

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl16_1.htm
 
Poslednja izmena:

Mrdaywalker

Domaćin
Banovan
Poruka
4.987
In the defters of the 1470s and 1480s they can be seen spreading into central and north-central Bosnia, in the regions round Visoko and Maglaj: soon after 1476, for example, roughly 800 Vlach families were settled in the Maglaj district, accompanied by two Orthodox priests. The number of Vlachs in north-central and north-east Bosnia continued to grow over the next fifty years, and they began to spread into north-west Bosnia too.

Prevod

U tefterima 1470 i 1480 može se vidjeti širenje u središnjoj i sjevero-srednjoj Bosni, u krajevima oko Visokog i Maglaja: ubrzo nakon 1476, oko 800 vlaških porodica su se smjestili u okrugu Maglaja, u pratnji dvojice pravoslavnih sveštenika. Broj Vlaha u sjeverno-središnjoj i sjevero-istočnoj Bosna je nastavila rasti tijekom idućih pedeset godina, i oni su se počeli širiti u sjevero-zapadnoj Bosni.
 
Poslednja izmena:

Andjela

Elita
Poruka
23.875
Pa Fortis to navodi prilikom opisivanja jezika Morlaka. Ovo su riječi koje kod njih nalazimo:

* opanak

* gusle

* krsna slava

Fortis otkriva da Morlaci govore čistim srpskim (ili srpskohrvatskim, kako god) jezikom i pokazuje da su im običaji tipični južnoslovenski i da se ni po čemu ne odvajaju od Južnih Slovena.
Znaci ime Vlasi, zasluzuju tome sto su bili pastiri ili? A zasto onda Mavro-Vlasi, ili kako vec?
A sta je sa Vlasima u Srbiji?
 

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