СТОП АБОРТУСУ !

[JOVANENAD]

Does a Fetus Have a "Right to Life"?

Anti-choicers say that a fetus has an inherent "right to life." But many of them support exceptions to a ban on abortion in cases of rape, incest, or a threat to the woman's life, or even health. This clearly indicates that they believe the right to life of a fetus is negotiable, certainly not absolute or paramount. By compromising their "right to life" definition in order to accommodate a woman's rights, they inadvertently acknowledge that women's rights are more important than the "right to life" of fetuses.

Even if a fetus can be said to have a right to life, this does not include the right to use the body of another human being. For example, the state cannot force people to donate organs or blood, even to save someone's life. We are not obligated by law to risk our lives jumping into a river to save a drowning victim, noble as that might be. Therefore, even if a fetus has a right to life, a pregnant woman is not required to save it by loaning out her body for nine months against her will7. (In response, anti-choicers say that being pregnant is not the same as being a Good Samaritan, because the woman chose to have sex, voluntarily accepting the risk of pregnancy8. But sex is not a contract for pregnancy—people have a right to non-procreative sex9. Their argument is also sexist and puritanical because it punishes women, not men, for their sexual behaviour.)

Even if a fetus were a human being with a right to life, this right doesn't automatically overrule a woman's right to choose, which can be argued to have a higher moral value under the circumstances. The free exercise of one's moral conscience is a fundamental right in our society. And since pregnancy entails profound physical, psychological, and long-lasting consequences for a woman (it is not a mere "inconvenience"), her freedoms are significantly restricted if she is forced to carry to term.

If fetuses did have a right to live, one could make an equal case for the right of unwanted fetuses not to live. This is alien to the anti-choice assumption that all life is precious and should be encouraged and preserved at any cost. In the real world, however, some people commit suicide because they no longer want to live, and others wish they’d never been born. Life is not a picnic for all, especially unwanted children who are at high risk for leading dysfunctional lives10. Many people believe that being forced to live is a violation of human dignity and conscience. To be truly meaningful, the right to live must include the flip side, the right to die.

Ultimately though, to have a "right to life" requires that one be an individual capable of living an independent existence. One must "get a life" before one has a "right to life." A fetus is not a separate individual—it lives inside a pregnant woman and depends on her for its growth. In fact, the biological definition of "parasite" fits the fetal mode of growth precisely, especially since pregnancy causes a major upset to a woman's body, just like a parasite does to its host. I'm not trying to disparage fetuses with the negative connotations of the word parasite; in fact, parasites and their hosts often enjoy mutually supportive relationships, and this obviously includes most pregnancies. However, the parasitic relationship of a fetus to a woman means that its continued existence requires her consent11—if she continues the pregnancy unwillingly, her rights and bodily integrity are violated.

 

[Reefer]

Koji Bog onaj sto se cese o krst?

Ko je tebi detinjstvo pokvario?

 

[JOVANENAD]

Can a Fetus Be a Legal Person with Rights?

Anti-choicers like to demand legal rights for fetuses. Significantly, there is no support for fetuses as legal persons in international human rights codes. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights says that "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights." Virtually all national constitutions do not treat fetuses as persons or citizens. American citizenship is limited to those "born or naturalized in the United States" (as per the 14th Amendment) and the word "Everyone" in the Canadian constitution has been deemed by the courts not to include fetuses12.

Declaring fetuses to be legal persons with rights would generate countless legal and social dilemmas. Fetuses would have to become dependents for tax and estate purposes, be counted in official census-taking, and be subject to many other laws affecting persons. Wouldn't every zygote have to have a Social Security Number, as well as a Certificate of Conception? The sheer absurdity of this proposal reveals that society does not think of fetuses as persons in the normal sense at all, and would have great difficulty trying to treat them as such.

Anti-choicers might argue that special laws or legal exceptions could be written for fetuses to accommodate their unique characteristics, but the very fact that exceptional laws for fetuses would have to be created proves that they are incapable of having the same legal status as real persons.

If anti-choicers want fetuses to share the same human rights as the rest of us, this means they should enjoy the constitutional freedoms of religion, speech, assembly, and other basic freedoms. Since fetuses are physically incapable of believing, speaking, or assembling, they cannot have or exercise any constitutional rights. This puts them in a totally different category than regular human beings. To give another example, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms says that "Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada." Fetuses obviously cannot qualify for such a right on their own. Ironically, the Charter also says "Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned"— if fetuses did have rights, this would outlaw forced pregnancy!

The biggest challenge in giving legal rights to embryos arises when trying to decide whose rights would take precedence when they conflict—the woman's or her zygote's. The idea that a grown woman's value and status can be equated with, or overridden by, a cluster of undifferentiated cells the size of the period at the end of this sentence is not only bizarre, it's insulting. We are treading on dangerous moral and legal grounds when we exchange a woman’s actual rights in favour of an embryo's theoretical rights.

The 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion, Roe v. Wade, tried to balance the rights of women and fetuses by allowing states to restrict abortion in the third trimester, except to protect the life or health of the woman. But this balancing act was a sham—women's right to choose would not be infringed in practice, because Roe v. Wade only prohibited the mythical "casual" late-term abortion invented by anti-choicers. In the real world, healthy pregnant women with healthy 8½ month fetuses do not casually demand abortions, and doctors do not casually agree to do them. To suggest otherwise is an insult to both women and doctors. Unfortunately, because of its faulty assumption that fetuses need to be protected from women's irresponsible decision-making, Roe v. Wade opened the door to the passage of many laws making it harder to access abortions, as well as a weakening of the decision itself by later Supreme Court rulings. Women’s liberty and bodily integrity have been violated accordingly.

I agree with the U.S. Supreme Court that the state has an interest in protecting fetal life, but this should be done through guaranteed access to pre-natal care, health care, and education for pregnant women, not by restricting abortion. Pitting the rights of women against their fetuses harms them both—for example, women will avoid pre-natal care entirely if they fear being arrested for endangering their fetus by drug abuse. Canadian courts have wisely backed away from trying to give any protections to fetuses in such circumstances, because they realize it might infringe on women's established human rights. As a result, pregnant women in Canada enjoy exclusive rights over their bodies. To turn the tables and demand legal rights for fetuses is a direct call for the legalized oppression of women, by stripping them of their constitutional rights and personhood. This loss of rights and identity would occur not just during a nine-month pregnancy, but would, by logical necessity, reach to some extent into women's lifelong role as mothers and mothers-to-be.

Ironically, anti-choicers are trapped in a fatal contradiction here—women are undeniably human beings; yet anti-choicers are quite willing to sacrifice the human rights of women in favour of fetuses, whose status as human beings is highly questionable. If they can’t even respect the lives and rights of born human beings, why should we trust their alleged concern for fetuses as human beings?

 

[JOVANENAD]

Does a Fetus Have a Social Identity?

A big part of what makes us human beings is our ability to participate in society, or at least be recognized as a member of society. Fetuses are excluded both by necessity and custom. There can be no meaningful social participation for someone cocooned inside another's body. Fetuses do not even have a social identity, since names are not officially bestowed until after birth. In fact, a birth certificate marks the first legal recognition of a person's existence. And fetuses are generally not given ritualized burials when miscarried or aborted. It is quite telling that the death of a newborn infant is much more of a crushing blow to parents than an early miscarriage. People simply place a higher social value on infants than fetuses, and this convention is ingrained in our culture and history.

In earlier times, even infants may not have been valued members of the society yet. Infanticide has been a common practice throughout history as a way to select for healthy, wanted babies, and conserve scarce resources for the rest of the tribe. The human species is estimated to have killed 10 to 15 percent of its born children13. Plus, infant mortality rates from natural causes were so high that babies were often not officially welcomed into the community until months or even years after birth, when their survival was more assured14. Of course, this is not an advocacy of infanticide. I'm simply saying that personhood, or the point at which one becomes an "official" human being, is a value judgment made by society according to social custom and necessity. It is a social construction incapable of empirical proof. Generally, modern industrialized societies find birth to be the most convenient and logical place to assign personhood, because that's where a person starts an independent existence, but perhaps also because of our low infant mortality rates. Even so, babies do not have an established social identity to the same degree as older children or adults, probably because of their still-undeveloped human abilities and potential.

 

[JOVANENAD]

Is a Fetus a Human Being Physically?

The normal meaning of human being implies a physical body of a certain size and shape with common attributes (excepting disabilities). Early embryonic forms do not share basic commonalities that define us as human beings. For example, zygotes and blastocysts are barely visible to the naked eye and have no bodies, brains, skeleton, or internal organs. Are they materially substantial enough to count as human beings? Fetuses cannot breath or make sounds, and they cannot see or be seen (except by shadowy ultrasound). They absorb nourishment and expel waste via an umbilical cord and placenta, not via a mouth and anus as do all other human beings. Further, fetuses are not just miniature babies. At various stages, fetuses have eyes on stalks, notochords (instead of spines), fish-like gills, tails, downy fur, distorted torsos, spindly legs, giant heads, and alien-looking faces. In fact, an early human fetus is practically indistinguishable in appearance from a dog or pig fetus. Finally, the fetal brain is not yet capable of conscious thought and memory (which aren't fully actualized until two or three years after birth). But our complex brains are what set us apart from animals and define us as human beings. The brain is the seat of personhood15.

Considering that the early fetus does not even look recognizably human, cannot engage in normal human perception or thought, and does not have the most basic human body functions, can we call it a human being?

Of course, there are striking physical similarities between a fetus and a newborn, such as well-developed hands and feet at a relatively early stage, and the overall structural form. As birth approaches, a fetus looks more and more like a newborn, until there is no significant difference by about 30 weeks gestation. But anti-choicers focus exclusively on these similarities, while ignoring the differences. For example, a hugely popular anti-choice photograph shows the perfectly formed, tiny feet of a 10-week old fetus held gently between someone's thumb and forefinger. There is no sign of the rest of the early fetus, which barely looks human at all. Anti-choicers try not to use pictures of embryos and early fetuses precisely because they look far less human than later ones (when they do, they usually enlarge them to make the embryo or fetus look the same size as a baby). Even the more commonly-used photos of later-term fetuses tend to deliberately shield from view anything that detracts from human-like qualities, such as the placenta or the oddly-shaped torso. (Also, women and their uteruses are completely erased from all such pictures.)16

 

[Ангел.]

Ајмо онда овако:

Смрт - годишње само у Америци умре најмање 100 жена од последица абортуса. Притом треба имати на уму да се овде не говори о нестручно спроведеним абортусима, већ о оним који се дешавају у специјализованим установама. Такође је битно да се велика већина леталних компликација не пријављује као последица абортуса, већ као тровање крви, спонтана гангрена јајника итд. По речима др Адашевића, нашег највећег борца против намерног прекида трудноће, код нас се овакве компликације најчешће пријављују као пуцање слепог црева, а све са циљем да се прикрију прави разлози.

 

[JOVANENAD]

Are Eggs and Embryos Stable Individuals?

Embryonic existence is very precarious. Zygotes, blastocysts, and embryos have a high failure rate, which throws cold water on the anti-choice claim that every fertilized egg is sacred. Scientists estimate that 55 to 65% of all conceptions are spontaneously aborted in the first few days or weeks of a pregnancy, usually without the woman ever knowing she was pregnant17. It's called "fetal wastage." Another 10 to 15% of pregnancies are miscarried in the months to come. Fetal wastage occurs because early embryonic forms have a high defect rate—most early miscarriages are caused by genetic defects in the fertilized egg. This shows that eggs and embryos do not yet qualify as human beings according to Nature herself—at best, they represent tryouts for the human race.

Embryos are capable of splitting into two, to form twins, and may even recombine later18. This does serious damage to the idea of unique personhood, and the common anti-abortion belief that a "soul" is infused into a zygote at conception. Do twins share the single soul they got at conception, or is the second twin belatedly given its own soul after cell division? If the latter, which soul is lost if the embryos recombine? These questions are unintelligible if embryos are human beings, but simply moot if they are not.

As mentioned before, we are more than our genes, so the fertilized egg cannot represent a "complete" human being as anti-choicers would have it. We are not yet ourselves at conception. Whatever a pregnant woman eats, drinks, inhales, and does, has a huge impact on the specific human being a fetus will turn out to be. Our brains, personalities, abilities, and physical traits are shaped by our environment as well as by genetics. Further, anti-choicers claim that nothing is added to the fertilized egg except nutrition, but this is a misunderstanding of how embryos develop. The dramatic development that turns a zygote into a newborn is not simply growth—it is a radical, turbulent, and constant metamorphosis, with individual cells reproducing, migrating, and evolving specific functions at specific times. The end result is like a complex symphony by a billion musicians that began with a single, one-note instrument.

Can such a contingent and changeable entity really be identified as the same full and unique human being at every stage?

 

[Ангел.]

Пробијање материце - процењује се да 2-3 посто жена доживи пробијање материце приликом извођења абортуса. Већина ових случајева се не примети одмах, нарочито ако је прекид трудноће спроведен у првом тромесечју трудноће, што води у друге, много теже компликације. Код касних абортуса, ова ситуација се готово по правилу јавља.

 

[JOVANENAD]

Life Is a Crap Shoot

Anti-choicers would not be convinced by the evidence in this article, because it doesn't refute their emotional conviction that a fertilized egg represents a real and unique human being, just like themselves. They identify with a fertilized egg (it's where we all came from, after all) and feel horror and anxiety at the thought that they themselves might have been aborted. But life is a crap shoot. If your parents had decided not to have sex the night you were conceived, you wouldn't have existed. If your father had worn a condom, you wouldn’t have existed. Or, you could have been conceived, then miscarried. If you had been aborted, your mother may have had a later sibling who wouldn't have existed without your abortion. And so on. Ultimately, if you hadn't been born, it wouldn't matter to you, the same way it can’t matter to aborted fetuses that they weren't born. The non-existent don’t regret their non-existence, and when the living start worrying about the non-existent, they descend into irrational nonsense.

Moreover, the difference between a fertilized egg, and a sperm and an unfertilized egg, is relatively minor. The sperm and ovum each represent the potential for a human being. But men release billions of doomed sperm over a lifetime, and virtually all of women's thousands of eggs go to waste. The number of potential, unique human beings forever lost to the world is astronomical, and although our sheer luck at being alive seems miraculous, it is pointless to lose sleep over such matters—and even more pointless to oppress half the world's population just so a few more of these gazillion potential human beings can exist.

This is not to say that human life doesn't have value. Of course it does, but only the value that we ourselves bestow on it—in biology, life is cheap, life is wasteful, and death is vital. Nature does not value humans any more than worms, and in all species, vast numbers of eggs and seeds don’t stand a chance of reaching maturity19. Life has been cheap throughout human history too—it's only modern medicine that has allowed us to keep most of our babies alive for the first time. Why shed futile tears over spilt milk and the biological facts of life? Instead, let's focus on protecting the rights and improving the quality of life of born human beings.

 

[Ангел.]

Рак цервикса, јајника и јетре - ризик за појаву наведених канцера се повећава два пута након првог абортуса, а чак четири пута након другог.

 

[JOVANENAD]

Conclusion

Despite the potential that a fetus has for becoming a human being, and its similarities to a human being, we cannot say that a fetus is a human being. A fetus resides in a legal and social no-man's land, where rights and personhood can have no force or meaning, unless women are kept thoroughly oppressed. Plus, there are many significant differences between a born human being and a fetus, which creates reasonable doubt as to its status. Because there can be no consensus on the matter, the value accorded to a fetus is a subjective, personal matter. Individuals, not society as a whole, must choose what the status of a fetus should be, based on their personal beliefs, morality, and circumstances. And ultimately, this choice belongs only to pregnant women.


Endnotes

For a more detailed biological perspective, see Eileen's article How Can a Paradigm Affect Your Rights as a Woman? which examines the paradigms through which we view the fetus within the pregnant woman: either as in "integrated single unit" or a "dual organism", and how that affects women's rights.

1. Medical World News. 1987. Abortion Clinic's Toughest Cases. pp 55-61. March 9.

2. I do not consider the religious perspective in this article, because if the claim that a fetus is a human being depends on sectarian religious doctrines, it cannot have any legal authority in our secular culture. I would argue that the claim does primarily come from religion, but this is a major topic that deserves its own book.

3. Stages of embryonic development: A zygote is a single-celled fertilized egg. A blastocyst is the fertilized egg after cell division. At implantation, it becomes an embryo through to the eighth week of development, and a fetus from eight weeks to birth.

4. Robinson, B.A. 2000. Christian Beliefs on Abortion: Past and Present. Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

5. Except in rare, narrowly defined circumstances on the condition that the fetus has a subsequent live birth, for example, allowing a fetus to later inherit so as to honour the intent of a deceased person (not to give a fetus personhood). U.S. Supreme Court. January 22, 1973. Roe v. Wade. Justice Blackmun opinion. http://hometown.aol.com/abtrbng/410b1.htm6

6. Rosen, Judith C. A Legal Perspective on the Status of the Fetus: Who Will Guard the Guardians? In Abortion Rights and Fetal 'Personhood'. Doerr, Ed and James W. Prescott, editors. 1990, 2nd ed. Centerline Press, Long Beach, California. pp 29-50.

7. McDonagh, Eileen L. 1996. Breaking the Abortion Deadlock: From Choice to Consent. Oxford University Press, New York, NY; and Jarvis Thomson, Judith. 1986. In Defense of Abortion. Reprinted in Rights, Restitution, and Risk. Ed. W. Pavent. Harvard University Press, Cambridge. Massachusetts.

8. Tribe, Lawrence H. 1990. Abortion: The Clash of Absolutes. W.W. Norton & Company, New York. pp 131-132.

9. Legalized birth control implicitly provides the right to have sex without reproducing. In the U.S., this right is constitutionally-protected (U.S. Supreme Court cases: Griswold v. Connecticut, 1965; and Eisenstadt v. Baird, 1972.) Most abortions are caused by failed contraceptives, but regardless, consent to sex does not entail consent to pregnancy, any more than consent to swimming implies consent to drown.

10. David, Henry P. et al., eds. 1988. Born Unwanted: Developmental Effects of Denied Abortion. Springer Publishing Co., New York.

11. McDonagh, pp. 68.

12. R.v. Morgentaler (1988); Borowski v. Attorney General of Canada (1987); Tremblay v. Daigle (1989); Winnipeg Child and Family Services v. Ms G. (1997); and others.

13. Milner, Larry S. 1998. A Brief History of Infanticide. Society for the Prevention of Infanticide. http://www.infanticide.org/history.htm

14. Morgan, Lynn M. When Does Life Begin? A Cross-Cultural Perspective on the Personhood of Fetuses and Young Children. In Abortion Rights and Fetal 'Personhood'. Doerr, Ed and James W. Prescott, editors. 1990, 2nd ed. Centerline Press, Long Beach, California. pp 89-107.

15. Bennett, Michael V.L. Personhood From a Neuroscientific Perspective. In Abortion Rights and Fetal 'Personhood'. Doerr, Ed and James W. Prescott, editors. 1990, 2nd ed. Centerline Press, Long Beach, California. pp 77-79.

16. Condit, Celeste Michelle. 1990. Decoding Abortion Rhetoric: Communicating Social Change. University of Illinois Press, Urbana and Chicago. pp. 85-89; and Newman, Karen. 1996. Fetal Positions: Individualism, Science, Visuality. Stanford University Press, Stanford, California. pp 8-18.

17. Rolfe, Barbara E. 1982. Detection of Fetal Wastage. Fertility and Sterility. Vol. 37, No. 5, pp 655-660, May; and Bonnicksen, Andrea. 1989. In Vitro Fertilization: Building Policy from Laboratories to Legislatures. Columbia University Press, New York, pp 150.

18. Condit, pp. 211.

19. Anti-choicers might claim that such death and wastage is natural or God-ordained, but that abortion is “playing God”, and this makes it wrong. But we play God every time we fly in an airplane, take antibiotics, breed a new type of dog, predict a storm, and build a fire. Human beings take control of their destiny and manipulate nature in a way that animals cannot—this is what makes us human beings. If we can’t be in charge of our reproduction too, we are no different than animals. (And if anti-choicers further say that this still doesn't make abortion "right," I would argue that safe, legal abortion is one of the greatest moral advances of the 20th century.)

 

[Ангел.]

Ектопична трудноћа - овај термин означава појаву трудноће ван материце, нпр. у стомачној шупљини, и често се јавља након абортуса. Јасно је да овакво стање озбиљно утиче на плодност мајке и да засигурно доводи њен живот у питање.

 

[Ангел.]

Ендометриоза - ово је запаљење унутрашње мембране материце које може знатно да отежа започињање и одржавање трудноће. Абортус повећава ризик од добијања ове болести, нарочито међу младим девојкама.

 

[Ангел.]

РАК ДОЈКЕ - преко 50 студија, спроведених углавном у Америци, показују следеће застрашујуће податке: ако жена намерно прекине своју прву трудноћу, а има више од 30 година, ризик за појаву рака дојке скаче за 110 процената; ако абортира пре своје 18. године исти ризик се повећава за 150 процената. Друга студија показује да абортус до 45 године живота повећава ризик за појаву ове тешке болести за 50 процената. У сваком случају, доказана је несумњива веза између абортуса и рака дојке.

 

[JOVANENAD]

Ајмо онда овако:

Смрт - годишње само у Америци умре најмање 100 жена од последица абортуса. Притом треба имати на уму да се овде не говори о нестручно спроведеним абортусима, већ о оним који се дешавају у специјализованим установама. Такође је битно да се велика већина леталних компликација не пријављује као последица абортуса, већ као тровање крви, спонтана гангрена јајника итд. По речима др Адашевића, нашег највећег борца против намерног прекида трудноће, код нас се овакве компликације најчешће пријављују као пуцање слепог црева, а све са циљем да се прикрију прави разлози.

Daj neke navode za tvoje tvrdnje. Ne moze nesto biti istina samo zato sto ti zelis da to bude.

 

[Reefer]

Hoće li neko od moderatora da zaustavi ovaj klasični spam? Skoro da sam siguran da niko neće čitati ovaj preobimni kopi/pejst u temi.

 

[Jasami Bicufin]

Još jednom ću ponoviti, ne zalažem se ja ni za šta! Ni za šta! Ja samo pričam ono što retko ko hoće da ispriča, pričam vam relano stanje stvari. I molim te, i tebe i druge, ne stavljajte mi reči koje nisam rekla, niti mi pripisujte stavove koji nisu moji, ok?
Ja se ne zalažem za abortus, ja se ne zalažem ni pritiv abortusa. Stanje je takvo kakvo jeste, abortus je dozvoljen i legalan. Ni jedna naša reč ovde neće promeniti ništa. Jel znaš zašto? Zato što je to čitava industija. Kozmetika i zdravstvo profitiraju od tih abortiranih fetusa, to su pare, čoveče. U Engleskoj, puritanskoj i moralnoj Engleskoj, abortus je legalan do 24-te nedelje. E, to je zločin i ubistvo!!! Ja sam u tom periodu bila pre manje od mesec dana, beba u 24 nedelji se oseti svakodnevno, ako je kao moja ne prestaje da lupa, udara, da se javlja... Industrija i pare... vrti se i okreće, pa šta mi pričali... na žalost.
Ni za šta se ja ne zalažem , izuzev za edukaciju, na vreme, ako je izvodljivo. Za edukaciju mladih ljudi i za moralno ponašalje.

A za boldovano, tj. komentar toga.. vidi, ako se neka beba rodi bolesna, jer to razlog za slavlje? A opet, dete se rodilo, treba proslaviti!
Za šta meni bravo kažeš? Ako rodim bolesno ( a neću, naravno, hipotetički pričam ) kakve to veze ima sa tobom? To bi bila moja muka, moja sudbina, moja i te bebe, i mog muža, i starijeg deteta... ti i bilo ko odavde sa tim veze imali ne bi! Ruku na srce, ni zdravo nema veze sa tobom.
Pa na čemu bravo? Na tome što nisam prošla proceduru koju trudnice prolaze? Na tome što ne bih abortirala bolesno? Na čemu??? KOliko puta vidiš hendikepiranu osobu na ulici, a koliko puta si takvoj osobi pomogao? Slepom da predje ulicu, distrofičaru kada mu nešto ispadne dodao...? Bilo šta? Bilo kome?
MIslite o tome, dete poraste...

Види овако...

Имаш ти жешћи проблем, а он није везан за тему. На чему "браво", питаш? На ставу. Је6и га ако морам да ти цртам.
А што се тиче болдованог дела текста, не знам шта да ти кажем... Небројано пута, свакодневно...

 

[Jasami Bicufin]

Ko je tebi detinjstvo pokvario?

Има ваљда наде за ово дете...

 

[_Ata_]

ovo nema nikakve veze sa tim sto kazes, srbi IZUMIRU!! za 100 godina nas nece biti!! zar to nije dovoljan razlog???

Da... princip je isti, sve su ostalo nijanse. Nije za rat, nego je zato što nas je rat prepolovio, što nas je ekonomska kriza desetkovala, što nas ****** preplavljuju, što nam devojčice sede do ranog jutra po splavovima, što nam dečaci jure velike pare valjajući smrt... a svi se redom drogiraju, makar i tom ebe.nom marihuanom, svi piju kao smukovi, svi purnjaju kao parnjače... a pri tome smo i usvojili moderne vrednosti... mada ću ja pre reći "vrednosti", pa jedemo gm hranu, pijemo vodu u kojoj svega ima, dišemo vazduh sa 168% nedozvoljenih primesa u nedozvoljenoj koncentraciji... pa je sve više neplodnih... a i oni koji bi mogli da radjaju, nemaju para, ili nemaju stan, ili nemaju uslove... ili bre, da srpski kažemo - neće... I sve nas je manje, za 100 godina nas neće biti...
Ma, sve znam, kao matora.
I koje je rešenje? Zabrani abortus!
Ništa drugo ne dovodi do toga da nas malo ima, nego samo abortusi. Nemoj da se neko zaebo da udje u srž problema, pa da lepo i ljudski ispita zašto toliki broj abortusa, kakvog su zdravstvenog, psihičkog i imovinskog stanja rodjena deca, kako ona žive, hoće li nam ona sutra dati zdravo potomstvo... nemoj to da bi neko niti pokušao, taman posla!
Nego zabrani abortus, pa će nas biti više... da više nas rije po kontišima, da više nas bude gladno i svega željno... ali Srbi smo, nebeski narod...

Jesam u postu bila ironična i ne shvati lično, Aurora, nemam ništa protiv tebe, taman posla, čak si mi i vrlo simpatična. Ovo je bio odgovor svima koji bi da podižu natalitet zabranom abortusa u zemlji u kojoj ljudi nemaju sredstava za osnovno, već preživljavaju kako znaju i umeju. Dokle ćemo, videćemo. Samo da zabranimo taj abortus, ma svi ćemo biti srećniji, čak i ona što će roditi n-to dete, čak i ona mučenica od 15-tak godina koju je tata izbacio kada je čuo da je trudna, čak i ona čiji muž juri sina, a do sada ima 5 ćerki... ma i oni će da polude od sreće, odma' će zemlja da procveta, samo da to zabranimo...
ljudi, nije ni čudo kako nam ide, s obzirom kako jednostrano razmišljamo, plitko i površno... nije uvreda, taman posla... još gore - istina je

 

[Гост форума]

Ово је абортус:

Права масовна убиства!

 

[JOVANENAD]

Hoće li neko od moderatora da zaustavi ovaj klasični spam? Skoro da sam siguran da niko neće čitati ovaj preobimni kopi/pejst u temi.

Pa ja bih to rado preveo na srpski ili srBski, ali koja vajda? U zemlji slepih jednooki covek je kralj.

 

[_Ata_]

Види овако...

Имаш ти жешћи проблем, а он није везан за тему. На чему "браво", питаш? На ставу. Је6и га ако морам да ти цртам.
А што се тиче болдованог дела текста, не знам шта да ти кажем... Небројано пута, свакодневно...

Hvala za upozorenje i skretanje pažnje da imam problem Mislim, stvarno hvala.
Bravo za tebe, za ovo boldnovano. Ipak, shvati, u manjini si. U debeloj manjini.
Za šta bravo, opet te pitam I ponovo podvlačim - kakve to ima veze sa bilo kim, osim sa mojom porodicom? Sutra, kada se rodi, biće ili moja radost, ili moja muka, samo moja i moje porodice, ničija druga! Kontaš?
Razumela sam ja tvoje bravo i hvala radi toga, ali sam samo pokušala da tebe i druge, navedem da počnete šire da razmišljate! To što meni moje lično ubedjenje, vera i ljubav prema nerodjenom detetu ne dozvoljavaju da mu život uzmem, i što ne želim to, jednostavno ne želim, ne znači da svi misle tako. Naprotiv, ogromna većina misli da sam neodgovorna, da rizikujem da donesem na svet bolesno dete, koje će se mučiti... da ja na to nemam pravo... e vidiš, i sa njima koplja lomim, više u realu nego ovde.
A istina je negde izmedju. I niko sa fanatičnim stavom, ovakvim ili onakvim, ali strastvenim, fanatičnim i slepim za sve ostalo, zapravo je ne može sagledati

 

[aurora5]

Она је обични клерофашиста и снага прошлости, која живи лагодним животом у Европској Унији, у Немачкој, једе киндер чоколаде, баварске кобасице и пије немачко пиво, слуша Брамса, Моцарта и Вагнера уз јутарњи капућуно, а Србе позива на крв, ратове, барикаде и конфронтирање са западним пријатељима. Заиста лицемерно!!

decko, ja sam na kosmetu cesce nego sto ces ti ikada biti za vreme tvog bednog beskorisnog zivota...

jedino sto si radio u zivotu bilo je lupanje u serpe dok sam ja drzala pusku u rukama i branila sebe i svoje...

 

[_Ata_]

Spojler

Ово је абортус:

Права масовна убиства!

Ne, ovo nije abortus. Abortus je do 12-te nedelje. ovo je ubistvo! I radi toga, izmedju ostalog, nisam radila nikakve genetske testove, baš zato što pre ovog uzrasta bebe nije moguće dobiti rezultat. A kada dobiješ rezultat, ne daj bože, da nije zdravo, onda mora na ovaj način da se "humano ubije"
Ovo nije abortus, ovo je prekid trudnoće, poodmakle trudnoće. I ovo je pokazatelj koliko ste daleko u manipulacijama spremni da idete!
Ja ne podržavam abortus, ovakvo ubistvo još manje, ali ni ne podržavam ovakve manipulacije i lagarije. Ovo nije abortus, ovo je prekid poodmakle trudnoće i ova beba bi mogla, imala bi šansu da preživi da se prevremeno rodila, i da nije - ubijena!!!

 

[Molonlabe]

Она је обични клерофашиста и снага прошлости, која живи лагодним животом у Европској Унији, у Немачкој, једе киндер чоколаде, баварске кобасице и пије немачко пиво, слуша Брамса, Моцарта и Вагнера уз јутарњи капућуно, а Србе позива на крв, ратове, барикаде и конфронтирање са западним пријатељима. Заиста лицемерно!!

Не напрђуј.

Џебеш то унилатерално размишљање. ПОготово ми је гадно када га саоштава нео ко би желио да ради исто што и она, али му се нешто не да...