Генетичка генеалогија II

[gost 428502]

 

[ZabranjeniLegenda]

Da, slažem se.
Kao što rekoh ovo je novije predanje, sasvim izvesno netačno( venecija itd).

Zna li se pouzdano da li je Milo Ozrinić ili je iz Cuca?

Jeste. Njegov djed-stric je Marko Djukanovic, predsjednik narodne skupstine Crne Gore u vrijeme kralja Nikole.

Ozrinicki Djukanovici vode porijeklo od Djukana Ivanova, unuk kneza Dragoja Ozrinica sa Čeva. Novak Djokovic potice od Damjana Vukasinova, drugi unuk kneza Dragoja.

 

[gost 428502]

Jeste. Njegov djed-stric je Marko Djukanovic, predsjednik narodne skupstine Crne Gore u vrijeme kralja Nikole.

Ozrinicki Djukanovici vode porijeklo od Djukana Ivanova, unuk kneza Dragoja Ozrinica sa Čeva. Novak Djokovic potice od Damjana Vukasinova, drugi unuk kneza Dragoja.

Da, znam za Đokovića.
Znači i Milo je Ozrinić? Ako sam dobro shvatio ili?
Najviše pitam jer mi idu na živce ovi koji ne znaju, a teško im da provere pa nagađaju šta mu dođe blažo đukanović, četnički vojvoda iz Cuca.

 

[ZabranjeniLegenda]

Da, znam za Đokovića.
Znači i Milo je Ozrinić? Ako sam dobro shvatio ili?
Najviše pitam jer mi idu na živce ovi koji ne znaju, a teško im da provere pa nagađaju šta mu dođe blažo đukanović, četnički vojvoda iz Cuca.

Da Ozrinic Cevljanin. Njegov djed Blazo je bio rodjen brat Markov iz Niksica. Bio je inzinjer tokom drugog svjetskog rata. Nema veze sa generalom Blazo Djukanovic Malocuca.

Postoji izreka u CG: "Sacuvaj te Boze glavarstva cevskoga".

 

[gost 428502]

Bošnjaci Sarajevo,Ovi iz Srbije,I Bosnjaci iz Bosne prosek.

Da im verujemo na reč oko ovih klastera.

Nedvosmisleno može da se vidi da se radi o istom narodu sa Srbima.

Hrvati iz Dalmacije.
Njima je malo teže verovati na reč, al' ajde..
Takođe zna se od koga su

 

[Vlad I]

Nikad cuo za ovo. Od kojeg je bratstva ovo predanje?

Cuce se dijele na Velje, Male Cuce, pa starince Srbi-Zecani i Mataruge.

Vecina plemena, Veljocuce imaju predanje da su od Pavla Orlovica i imaju zajednicki predak sa Bjelicama i Bajicama. Braca Cuko Bjelo i Bajo, naselili u Rzani Do i gradili zaduzbinu Orlovicku crkvu posvecana krsnoj slavi Orlovica sv Jovanu, smatra se za najstariju crkvu u Katunskoj Nahiji i Cucama.

Orlovici su drzali knezevstvo u Cucama bar od pocetka 17-og vijeka do ukidanja knezevstva 1852. godine.

Malocuce su od Kuča sa Meduna i dosli kasnije krajem 17-og vijeka.

Veljocuce su J2a, Malocuce E1, starinci su I2a, R1a i E1. Ovaj J2a je jedini marker povezan sa italijom.

Ovo predanje o venecijanskoj princezi sa kraja 15og vijeka tesko bi moglo biti tacno, s'obzirom da Pjesivci koji dijele zajednicki J2a predak sa Veljocucama, a spomenuti su kao pleme u ugovoru sa Stefanom Crnojevicem 1455. godine.

Vjerovatnija teorija jeste da su Veljocuce ogranak Pjesivaca koji su sirili na teritoriju Cuca dok je postojala Pjesivacka Nahija 1500-1582. g. A da Pjesivci poticu od sloveniziranih Španja, vlasko pleme koje je zivjelo na rijeci Zeta. Ime "Španji" na grckom znaci goli ili golobradi, ekvivalentno znacenju slovenske rijeci Pjesivci - od Plješiv - čelavi/goli.

Dakle, na osnovu svega što je do sada poznato, uključujući usmenu tradiciju i DNK, najverovatniji scenario je da su braća Velja Cuce koja pripadaju J2a-S8230 stigla na teritoriju Cuca negde između 1500-1582. godina zar ne?

 

[ZabranjeniLegenda]

Dakle, na osnovu svega što je do sada poznato, uključujući usmenu tradiciju i DNK, najverovatniji scenario je da su braća Velja Cuce koja pripadaju J2a-S8230 stigla na teritoriju Cuca negde između 1500-1582. godina zar ne?

Da. U to vrijeme Cuce su bile jedno selo u Pjesivackoj Nahiji. Cuce kao mjesto je prvi put spomenut oko 1480-godine, dok su Pjesivci kao pleme vec 1455 spomenuti.

 

[gost 428502]

 

[Hromi Vuk]

Pogledajte prilog 689094

ovo su autosomalni testovi ako se ne varam, gde se oni tačno rade

 

[Ројалиста]

ovo su autosomalni testovi ako se ne varam, gde se oni tačno rade

Наше лабораторије их још не раде комерцијално, а у иностранству наши људи се највише тестирају преко FamilyTreeDNA.com, чија се лабораторија налази у Хјустону, у Тексасу. Ту су такође и компаније MyHeritage.com и 23andMe. Тамо се углавном тестирају наши људи који живе у иностранству. 23andMe у том смислу има и одређена ограничења.

 

[gost 428502]

Наше лабораторије их још не раде комерцијално, а у иностранству наши људи се највише тестирају преко FamilyTreeDNA.com, чија се лабораторија налази у Хјустону, у Тексасу. Ту су такође и компаније MyHeritage.com и 23andMe. Тамо се углавном тестирају наши људи који живе у иностранству. 23andMe у том смислу има и одређена ограничења.

Dodao bih samo da može i iz Srbije da se radi, naruči se onlajn.

 

[Ројалиста]

Dodao bih samo da može i iz Srbije da se radi, naruči se onlajn.

Наравно. Мислим само да на 23andMe не може да се шаље.

 

[Fiamma]

Баците поглед и на ово:

Kvadratura kruga: Čiju genetiku nose Srbi

 

[gost 428502]

Imam relativno ,,blisku" distancu sa ovim Vikngom.
Msm verovatno se radi o osobi sa sličnom dnk ili nekim segmentima, ne verujem da je neka značajnija veza u pitanju, na ftdna imam 2% skandinavije. Sa kijevskim Rusom delim mnogo više segmenata, mada mislim da je distanca veća. Kako god svakako je zanimljivo. Kada je distanca 15 to znači sa su učestvovali u našoj etnogenezi ( makar i minimalno).

 

[Khal Drogo]

Људи и код историје и код генетичке генеалогије теже поједностављивању, рецимо хаплогрупу Р1а назову словенском или словенским геном, међутим ако погледамо генезу ове хаплогрупе (овдје)

Spojler: Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA)

Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA)
Eupedia Home > Genetics > Haplogroups (home) > Haplogroup R1a

Author: Maciamo Hay.
Last update April 2020 (famous people)

Contents
1. Origins 2. Geographic distribution 3. Phylogeny 4. History The Germanic branch The Baltic branch The Slavic branch R1a migration map The Indo-Iranian branch The Tarim mummies Turkic speakers and R1a The Greek branch 5. R1 populations & light pigmentation 6. MtDNA correspondance 7. Famous R1a individuals

Origins
Paleolithic mammoth hunters
Haplogroup R* originated in North Asia just before the Last Glacial Maximum (26,500-19,000 years before present). This haplogroup has been identified in the 24,000 year-old remains of the so-called "Mal'ta boy" from the Altai region, in south-central Siberia (Raghavan et al. 2013). This individual belonged to a tribe of mammoth hunters that may have roamed across Siberia and parts of Europe during the Paleolithic. Autosomally this Paleolithic population appears to have passed on its genes mostly to the modern populations of Europea and South Asia, the two regions where haplogroup R also happens to be the most common nowadays (R1b in Western Europe, R1a in Eastern Europe, Central and South Asia, and R2 in South Asia).
The series of mutations that made haplogroup R1* evolve into R1a probably took place during or soon after the Last Glacial Maxium. Little is know for certain about R1a's place of origin. Some think it might have originated in the Balkans or around Pakistan and Northwest India, due to the greater genetic diversity found in these regions. The diversity can be explained by other factors though. The Balkans have been subject to 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian Steppes, each bringing new varieties of R1a. South Asia has had a much bigger population than any other parts of the world (occasionally equalled by China) for at least 10,000 years, and larger population bring about more genetic diversity. The most likely place of origin of R1a is Central Asia or southern Russia/Siberia.
From there, R1a could have migrated directly to eastern Europe (European Russia, Ukraine, Belarus), or first southward through Central Asia and Iran. In that latter scenario, R1a would have crossed the Caucasus during the Neolithic, alongside R1b, to colonise the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. In the absence of ancient Y-DNA from those regions the best evidence supporting a Late Paleolithic migration to Iran is the presence of very old subclades of R1a (like M420) in the region, notably in the Zagros mountains. However these samples only make up a fraction of all R1a in the region and could just as well represent the descendants of Eastern European hunter-gatherers who branched off from other R1a tribes and crossed from the North Caucasus any time between 20,000 and 8,000 years ago. The logic behind this is that most known historical migrations in Eurasia took place from north to south, as people sought warmer climes. The only exception happened during the Holocene warming up of the climate, which corresponds to the Neolithic colonisation of Europe from the Near East. A third possibility is that R1a tribes split in two around Kazakhstan during the Late Paleolithic, with one group moving to eastern Europe, while the other moved south to Iran.

Did R1a come to Europe with Neolithic farmers ?

Some people have theorized that R1a was one of the lineages of the Neolithic farmers, and would have entered Europe through Anatolia, then spread across the Balkans toward Central Europe, then only to Eastern Europe. There are many issues with this scenario. The first is that 99% of modern R1a descends from the branch R1a-M417, which clearly expanded from the Bronze Age onwards, not from the early Neolithic. Its phylogeny also points at an Eastern European origin. Secondly, most of the R1a in Middle East are deep subclades of the R1a-Z93 branch, which originated in Russia (see below). It could not have been ancestral to Balkanic or Central European R1a. Thirdly, there is a very strong correlation between the Northeast European autosomal admixture and R1a populations, and this component is missing from the genome of all European Neolithic farmers tested to date - even from Ötzi, who was a Chalcolithic farmer. This admixture is also missing from modern Sardinians, who are mostly descended from Neolithic farmers. This is incontrovertible evidence that R1a did not come to Europe with Neolithic farmers, but only propagated from Eastern Europe to the rest of Europe from the Bronze Age onwards.

Bronze Age Proto-Indo-Europeans
R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the northern and eastern Proto-Indo-European tribes, who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic people. The Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Yamna culture (3300-2500 BCE). Their dramatic expansion was possible thanks to an early adoption of bronze weapons and the domestication of the horse in the Eurasian steppes (circa 4000-3500 BCE). Individuals from the southern part of the Steppe are believed to have carried predominantly lineages belonging to haplogroup R1b (L23 and subclades), while the people of northern forest-steppe to the north would have belonged essentially to haplogroup R1a. The first expansion of the forest-steppe people occured with the Corded Ware Culture (see Germanic branch below). The migration of the R1b people to central and Western Europe left a vacuum in the southern steppe, which was filled by the R1a-dominant tribes with the expansion of the Catacomb culture (2800-2200 BCE). The forest-steppe origin of this culture is obvious from the usage of corded pottery and the abundant use of polished battle axes, the two most prominent features of the Corded Ware culture. This is also probably the time when the satemisation process of the Indo-European languages began, considering that the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian language groups belong to the same Satem isogloss and both appear to have evolved from the the Catacomb culture.
Ancient DNA testing has confirmed the presence of haplogroup R1a-M417 in samples from the Corded Ware culture in Germany (2600 BCE), from Tocharian mummies (2000 BCE) in Northwest China, from Kurgan burials (circa 1600 BCE) from the Andronovo culture in southern Russia and southern Siberia, as well as from a variety of Iron-age sites from Russia, Siberia, Mongolia and Central Asia.
Geographic distribution
Distribution of haplogroup R1a in Europe

Distribution of haplogroup R1a-M458 in Europe

Distribution of haplogroup R1a-M558 (CTS1211) in Europe

Distribution of haplogroup R1a-Z93 in Eurasia


Nowadays, high frequencies of R1a are found in Poland (57.5% of the population), Ukraine (40 to 65%), European Russia (45 to 65%), Belarus (51%), Slovakia (42%), Latvia (40%), Lithuania (38%), the Czech Republic (34%), Hungary (32%), Norway (27%), Austria (26%), Croatia (24%), north-east Germany (24%) Sweden (19%), and Romania (18%).
Phylogeny of R1a
If you are new to genetic genealogy, please check our Introduction to phylogenetics to understand how to read a phylogenetic tree.

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99% R1a people belong to subclades of R1a1a1 (R1a-M417), which is divided in the following subclades:

• R1a-L664 is essentially Northwest European, found chiefly in West Germany, the Low Countries and the British Isles.
• R1a-Z645makes up the majority of R1a individuals from Central Europe to South Asia.
  • R1a-Z283 is the main Central & East Europeanbranch.
    • R1a-Z284 is a Scandinavian subclade with an epicentre in central Norway. It is found also in places colonised by the Norwegian Vikings, like some parts of Scotland, England and Ireland. Several subclades were identified, including L448, L176.1, Z287/Z288, Z66 and Z281 about which little is known at the moment.
    • R1a-M458, primarily a Slavicsubclade, with maximum frequencies in Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, but is also fairly common in southeast Ukraine and northwest Russia.
      • its subclade R1a-L260 is clearly West Slavic, with a peak of frequency in Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and radiating at lower frequencies into East Germany, East Austria, Slovenia and Hungary.
    • R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavicmarker, found all over central and Eastern Europe (except in the Balkans), with a western limit running from East Germany to Switzerland and Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.
      • its subclade R1a-L365 is a Pomeranian cluster found also in southern Poland.
  • R1a-Z93 is the main Asianbranch of R1a. It is found in Central Asia, South Asia and Southwest Asia (including among Ashkenazi Jews). R1a-Z93 is the marker of historical peoples such as the Indo-Aryans, Persians, Medes, Mitanni, or Tatars. Z93 also pervaded the genetic pool of the Arabs and Jews.
    • R1a-F1345is one of the main Middle Eastern clades.
      • R1a-CTS6 is the Jewish subclade of R1a, which formed 3500 years ago and has a TMRCA of 2800 years.

History of R1a
The Germanic branch
The first major expansion of R1a took place with the westward propagation of the Corded Ware (or Battle Axe) culture (2800-1800 BCE) from the northern forest-steppe in the Yamna homeland. This was the first wave of R1a into Europe, the one that brought the Z283 subclade to Germany and the Netherlands, and Z284 to Scandinavia. The Corded Ware R1a people would have mixed with the pre-Germanic I1 and I2 aborigines, which resulted in the first Indo-European culture in Germany and Scandinavia, although that culture could not be considered Proto-Germanic - it was simply Proto-Indo-European at that stage, or perhaps or Proto-Balto-Slavic.
Germanic languages probably did not appear before the Nordic Bronze Age (1800-500 BCE). Proto-Germanic language probably developed as a blend of two branches of Indo-European languages, namely the Proto-Balto-Slavic language of the Corded-Ware culture (R1a-Z283) and the later arrival of Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic people from the Unetice culture (R1b-L11). This is supported by the fact that Germanic people are a R1a-R1b hybrid, that these two haplogroups came via separate routes at different times, and that Proto-Germanic language is closest to Proto-Italo-Celtic, but also shares similarities with Proto-Slavic.
The R1b branch of the Indo-Europeans is thought to have originated in the southern Yamna culture (northern shores of the Black Sea). It was the first one to migrate from the steppes to the west, invading the Danube delta around 4200 BCE, then making its way around the Balkans and the Hungarian plain in the 4th millennium BCE. It is likely that a minority of R1a people accompanied this migration of R1b tribes. Those R1a men would have belonged to the L664 subclade, the first to split from the Yamna core. These early steppe invaders were not a homogeneous group, but a cluster of tribes. It is possible that the R1a-L664 people were one or several separate tribes of their own, or that they mixed with some R1b tribes, notably R1b-U106, which would become the main Germanic lineage many centuries later. The R1b-R1a contingent moved up the Danube to the Panonian plain around 2800 BCE, brought to an end the local Bell Beaker culture (circa 2200 BCE) and Corded Ware culture (c. 2400 BCE) in Central Europe, and set up the Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE) around Bohemia and eastern Germany. Unetice can be seen as the source of future Germanic, Celtic and Italic cultures, and is associated mainly with the L11 subclade of R1b.
The late Unetice culture expanded to Scandinavia, founding the Nordic Bronze Age. R1a-L664 and R1b (L11 and U106) presumably reached Scandinavia at this time. The people of the Nordic Bronze Age probably spoke a Proto-Germanic language. For over a thousand years while this culture existed, the Proto-Germanic R1b et R1a-L664 tribes would have acquired vocabulary from the pre-existing Corded Ware population that they assimilated, which was itself a blend of Proto-Balto-Slavic languages (linked to haplogroup R1a-Z284) and languages of non-Indo-European origin (linked to haplogroups G2a, I1 and I2). The Nordic Bronze Age was a melting pot of these three populations, which intermingled both genetically and linguistically, little by little creating a new ethnicity and culture as time went by.
The first genuinely Germanic language has been estimated by linguists to have come into existence around (or after) 500 BCE, just as the Nordic Bronze Age came to an end, giving way to the Pre-Roman Iron Age. The uniqueness of some of the Germanic vocabulary copared to other Indo-European languages suggests that borrowings from indigenous pre-Indo-European languages took place (Germanic substrate theory). The Celtic language itself is known to have borrowed words from Afro-Asiatic languages spoken by the descendants of Near-Eastern farmers who had settled in Central Europe. The fact that present-day Scandinavia is composed of roughly 40% of I1, 20% of R1a and 40% of R1b reinforces the idea that the Germanic ethnicity and language had acquired a tri-hybrid character by the Iron Age.
The Slavic branch
The origins of the Slavs go back to circa 3500 BCE with the northern Yamna culture and its expansion across Central and Northeast Europe with the Corded Ware culture. The M458 and Z280 lineages spread around Poland, Belarus, Ukraine and western Russia, and would form the core of the Proto-Balto-Slavic culture. The high prevalence of R1a in Baltic and Slavic countries nowadays is not only due to the Corded Ware expansion, but also to a long succession of later migrations from Russia, the last of which took place from the 5th to the 10th century CE. The Slavic branch differentiated itself when the Corded Ware culture absorbed the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture (5200-2600 BCE) of western Ukraine and north-eastern Romania, which appears to have been composed primarily of G2a-U1 et I2a1b-M423 lineages descended directly from Paleolithic Europeans, with some other Near-Eastern farmer lineages (notably E-V13, J2a and T1a). It is surely during this period that I2a2, E-V13 and T spread (along with R1a) around Poland, Belarus and western Russia, explaining why eastern and northern Slavs (and Lithuanians) have between 10 and 20% of I2a1b lineages and about 10% of Middle Eastern lineages (18% for Ukrainians).
The Corded Ware period was followed in the steppes by the Srubna culture (1800-1200 BCE), and around Poland by the Trzciniec culture (1700-1200 BCE).
The last important Slavic migration is thought to have happened in the 6th century CE, from Ukraine to Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia, filling the vacuum left by eastern Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Both the M458 and the Z280 branches are associated with this late Slavic migration, but more particularly Z280.
Interestingly, the Czechs do not carry much Z280, a factor that strongly differentiates them from their Slovak, Hungarian and Slovene neighbours. Czechs R1a belongs in majority to M458, with subclades such as L1029>YP1703 (TMRCA 1800 years), L260>YP256>YP654 (TMRCA 2200 years), L260>YP256>YP254>Y2905 (TMRCA 1850 years) and L260>YP1337 (TMRCA 1750 years). Other R1a clades found in the Czech Republic include Z280>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP951 (TMRCA 2500 years) CTS1211>Y35>YP4278 (TMRCA 1850 years), some Z92 and Z93, as well as the Germanic L664 (S3479>S3485>S3477>YP942; TMRCA 1800 years). The age of these subclades concord with the historical Slavic expansion during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages.
Regional disparities also exist in ex-Yugoslavia, but among deeper clades. Bosnian and Serbian R1a belongs for the most part to a young clade of CTS1211 (Y33>CTS8816>Y3300>Y5647>YP611>YP3987>YP3992 subclade; TMRCA 950 years), with a minority of older M458 (CTS11962>L1029 subclade; TMRCA 2200 years) and Z92 (Y4459>YP617 subclade; TMRCA 3400 years). Croatian R1a falls almost exclusively within CTS1211, but to another clade (Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2608 subclade, TMRCA 1950 years), with a small minority of YP340>P278.2 (TMRCA 2100 years). The R1a-Y3300 (aka L1280) found in Serbia and Bosnia seems to have expanded from Poland via Hungary during the early medieval period. The Croatian R1a-Y2608 also expanded from Poland during the same period, but via Czechia, Slovakia, Austria and Slovenia.
Bulgarian R1a is very diverse in comparison to Dinaric R1a. Subclades equally divided between M458 (mostly the pan-Slavic L1029 subclade) and Z280, but with a huge diversity within the latter, (Y33>CTS8816, YP237>YP235>L366, YP343>YP39082>YP340, Z92>YP617 and Z92>Z685). There is also a little bit of very old R1a-M198 (M417-), and some R1a-Z93, notably the Y15121 subclade found in Iran, India and the Middle East, and which could have come with the Scythians or other Iranic steppe tribes. Little data is available for neighbouring Macedonia, but it includes at least L1029 (under M458) and L366 (under CTS1211).
Romanians have an even greater diversity of R1a clades than Bulgarians, despite not being speakers of a Slavic language. In fact, not all Romanian R1a is of Slavic origin. It includes Germanic clades (L664>S2894>YP285>YP282 and Z283), Iranian ones (Z93) and Jewish ones (CTS6). The Slavic clades represented include L1029 (under M458>CTS11962) and YP951 (under CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>).
Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders might have come with the westward expansion of the Sredny Stog culture (from 4200 BCE), which led the way to a succession of steppe migrations that lasted for over 2,000 years until the end of the Yamna culture (3500-2000 BCE). These early invasions from the Steppe were probably conducted in majority by R1b men, accompanied by a small number of R1a. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), and much later the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian Steppe, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, thus contributing to the relatively high diversity of R1a subclades observed in Carpathians and the Balkans today, especially in Bulgaria and Romania. Nevertheless, the vast majority of R1a in Southeast Europe today appears to be of Slavic origin.
The Baltic branch
The Baltic branch is thought to have evolved from the Fatyanovo culture (3200-2300 BCE), the northeastern extension of the Corded Ware culture. Early Bronze Age R1a nomads from the northern steppes and forest-steppes would have mixed with the Uralic-speaking inhabitants (N1c1 lineages) of the region. This is supported by a strong presence of both R1a and N1c1 haplogroups from southern Finland to Lithuania and in northwest Russia.
Latvian and Lithuanian clades of R1a include typical Balto-Slavic lineages like M458, CTS1211 and Z92, as well as some Ashkenazi Jewish (CTS6), Germanic (L664 and Z284) and even Indo-Iranian lineages (Z93>Z94>L657). The Balto-Slavic lineages include the following deep clades, most with a relatively recent TMRCA.

• M458
  • CTS11962
    • L1029
      • YP417
        • YP418
          • YP1137 (TMRCA = 1550 ybp)
• Z280
  • CTS1211
    • Y35
      • CTS3402
        • Y33
          • CTS8816
            • Y2902
              • Y4380 (TMRCA = 1500 ybp)
        • YP237
          • YP235
            • L366 (TMRCA = 2700 ybp)
          • YP951
            • YP1410 (TMRCA = 2500 ybp)
          • YP420
            • YP419 (TMRCA = 3400 ybp)
        • YP343
          • YP340
            • YP371
              • YP372
                • YP380 (TMRCA = 1150 ybp)
  • S24902
    • YP561
      • YP4094 (TMRCA = 3700 ybp)
  • Z92
    • Z685
      • YP270
        • YP351
          • Y9081 (TMRCA = 2500 ybp)

Migration map of haplogroup R1a from the Neolithic to the late Bronze Age (c. 1000 BCE)

Click to enlarge.The Indo-Iranian branch
Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, the people who later called themselves 'Aryans' in the Rig Veda and the Avesta, originated in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), in the Tobol and Ishim valleys, east of the Ural Mountains. It was founded by pastoralist nomads from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE), ranging from the upper Don-Volga to the Ural Mountains, and the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), extending from the lower Don-Volga to the Caspian depression.
The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.
Horse-drawn war chariots seem to have been invented by Sintashta people around 2100 BCE, and quickly spread to the mining region of Bactria-Margiana (modern border of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan). Copper had been extracted intensively in the Urals, and the Proto-Indo-Iranians from Sintashta-Petrovka were exporting it in huge quantities to the Middle East. They appear to have been attracted by the natural resources of the Zeravshan valley for a Petrovka copper-mining colony was established in Tugai around 1900 BCE, and tin was extracted soon afterwards at Karnab and Mushiston. Tin was an especially valued resource in the late Bronze Age, when weapons were made of copper-tin alloy, stronger than the more primitive arsenical bronze. In the 1700's BCE, the Indo-Iranians expanded to the lower Amu Darya valley and settled in irrigation farming communities (Tazabagyab culture). By 1600 BCE, the old fortified towns of Margiana-Bactria were abandoned, submerged by the northern steppe migrants. The group of Central Asian cultures under Indo-Iranian influence is known as the Andronovo horizon, and lasted until 800 BCE.
The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.
The Indo-Iranian migrations have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.
Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war. The first major settlement of Indo-Aryan women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common today.

The Tarim mummies

In 1934 Swedish archaeologist Folke Bergman discovered some 200 mummies of fair-haired Caucasian people in the Tarim Basin in Northwest China (a region known as Xinjiang, East Turkestan or Uyghurstan). The oldest of these mummies date back to 2000 BCE and all 7 male remains tested by Li et al. (2010), were positive for the R1a1 mutations. The modern inhabitants of the Tarim Basin, the Uyghurs, belong both to this R1b-M73 subclade (about 20%) and to R1a1 (about 30%). The first theory about the origins of the Tarim mummies is that a group of early horse riders from the Repin culture (3700-3300 BCE) migrated from the Don-Volga region to the Altai mountain, founding the Afanasevo culture (c. 3600-2400 BCE), whence they moved south to the Tarim Basin. Another possibility is that the Tarim mummies descend from the Proto-Indo-Iranian people (see above) who expanded all over Central Asia around 2000 BCE from the Sintashta-Petrovka culture. An offshoot would have crossed the Tian Shan mountains, ending up in the Tarim Basin. This theory has the merit of matching the dating of the Tarim mummies. Either way, most of the mummies tested for mtDNA belonged to the Mongoloid haplogroup C4, and only a few to European or Middle Eastern haplogroups (H, K and R). There is some controversy regarding the possible link between the Tarim mummies and the Tocharian languages, a Centum branch of the Indo-European family which were spoken in the Tarim Basin from the 3rd to 9th centuries CE. It is easy to assume that the Tarim mummies were Proto-Tocharian speakers due to the corresponding location and the Indo-European connection. However, the Tarim mummies predate the appearance of Tocharian by over two millennia, and Tocharian is a Centum language that cannot be descended from the Satem Proto-Indo-Iranian branch. Other Centum branches being all related to haplogroup R1b, and Tocharian being the only eastern Centum language, it is possible that the Tocharian speakers is instead associated to the Central Asian R1b1b1 (M73) subclade, also found among the modern Uyghurs inhabiting the Tarim basin.

Turkic speakers and R1a

The present-day inhabitants of Central Asia, from Xinjiang to Turkey and from the Volga to the Hindu Kush, speak in overwhelming majority Turkic languages. This may be surprising as this corresponds to the region where the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European speakers expanded, the Bronze-Age Andronovo culture, and the Iron-Age Scythian territory. So why is it that Indo-European languages only survives in Slavic Russia or in the southern part of Central Asia, in places like Tajikistan, Afghanistan or some parts of Turkmenistan ? Why don't the Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs, or the modern Pontic-Caspian steppe people (Crimean Tatars, Nogais, Bashkirs and Chuvashs) speak Indo-European vernaculars ? Genetically these people do carry Indo-European R1a, and to a lesser extent also R1b, lineages. The explanation is that Turkic languages replaced the Iranian tongues of Central Asia between the 4th and 11th century CE. Proto-Turkic originated in Mongolia and southern Siberia with such nomadic tribes as the Xiongnu. It belongs to the Altaic linguistic family, like Mongolian and Manchu (some also include Korean and Japanese, although they share very little vocabulary in common). It is unknown when Proto-Turkic first emerged, but its spread started with the Hunnic migrations westward through the Eurasian steppe and all the way to Europe, only stopped by the boundaries of the Roman Empire. The Huns were the descendants of the Xiongnu. Ancient DNA tests have revealed that the Xiongnu were already a hybrid Eurasian people 2,000 years ago, with mixed European and North-East Asian Y-DNA and mtDNA. Modern inhabitants of the Xiongnu homeland have approximately 90% of Mongolian lineages against 10% of European ones. The oldest identified presence of European mtDNA around Mongolia and Lake Baikal dates back to over 6,000 years ago. It appears that Turkic quickly replaced the Scythian and other Iranian dialects all over Central Asia. Other migratory waves brought more Turkic speakers to Eastern and Central Europe, like the Khazars, the Avars, the Bulgars and the Turks (=> see 5000 years of migrations from the Eurasian steppes to Europe). All of them were in fact Central Asian nomads who had adopted Turkic language, but had little if any Mongolian blood. Turkic invasions therefore contributed more to the diffusion of Indo-European lineages (especially R1a1) than East Asian ones. Turkic languages have not survived in Europe outside the Pontic-Caspian steppe. Bulgarian language, despite being named after a Turkic tribe, is actually a Slavic tongue with a mild Turkic influence. Hungarian, sometimes mistaken for the heir of Hunnic because of its name, is in reality an Uralic language (Magyar). the The dozens of Turkic languages spoken in the world today have a high degree of mutual intelligibility due to their fairly recent common origin and the nomadic nature of its speakers (until recently). Its two main branches Oghuz and Oghur could be seen as two languages about as distant as Spanish and Italian, and languages within each branch like regional dialects of Spanish and Italian.

The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.
R1 populations spread genes for light skin, blond hair and red hair
There is now strong evidence that both R1a and R1b tribes during the Bronze Age contributed to the diffusion of the A111T mutation of the SLC24A5 gene, which explains apporximately 35% of skin tone difference between Europeans and Africans, and most variations within South Asia. The distribution pattern of the A111T allele (rs1426654) of matches almost perfectly the spread of Indo-European R1a and R1b lineages around Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia and South Asia. The mutation was probably passed on in the Early neolithic to other Near Eastern populations, which explains why Neolithic farmers in Europe already carried the A111T allele (e.g. Keller 2012 p.4, Lazaridis 2014 suppl. 7), although at lower frequency than modern Europeans and southern Central Asians.
The light skin allele is also found at a range of 15 to 30% in in various ethnic groups in northern sub-Saharan Africa, mostly in the Sahel and savannah zones inhabited by tribes of R1b-V88 cattle herders like the Fulani and the Hausa. This would presuppose that the A111T allele was already present among all R1b tribes before the Pre-Pottery Neolithic split between the V88 and P297 branches. R1a populations have an equally high incidence of this allele as R1b populations. On the other hand, the A111T mutation was absent from the 24,000-year-old R* sample (Mal'ta boy) from Siberia, and is absent from most modern R2 populations in Southeast India and Southeast Asia. Consequently, it can be safely assumed that the mutation arose among the R1* lineage during the late Upper Paleolithic, probably some time between 20,000 and 13,000 years ago.
Fair hair was another physical trait associated with the Indo-Europeans. In contrast, the genes for blue eyes were already present among Mesolithic Europeans belonging to Y-haplogroup I. The genes for blond hair are more strongly correlated with the distribution of haplogroup R1a, but those for red hair have not been found in Western or Central Europe before the Bronze Age, and appear to have been spread primarily by R1b people (=> see The origins of red hair).
The maternal lineages (mtDNA) corresponding to haplogroup R1a
Comparing the regions where haplogroup R1a is found today with the modern mtDNA frequencies, it transpires that the maternal lineages that correlate the most with Y-haplogroup R1a are mt-haplogroups C4a, H1b, H1c, H2a1, H6, H7, H11, T1a1a1, U2e, U4, U5a1a and W, as well as some subclades of I, J, K, T2 and V. See the main article for more details:

То је прилично шаролико, имамо читав низ грана, огранака и слојева те хаплогрупе.

Имамо и једну мапу миграција ове хаплогрупе

Упрошћено, три најприсутније гране данас ове хаплогрупе су Л664. З283 и З94.
Из гране З283 ће се развити огранци З284, М458 и З280 (са својим слојевима ЦТС 1211 и З92).
Грана Л664 и огранак З284 су присутни у значајном % данас у Њемачкој и скандинавским земљама па се у колоквијалном говору називају и германском граном ове хаплогрупе.
Огранци М458 и З280 су данас у великом % присутни међу словенским народима па се називају словенком граном ове хаплогрупе.
Грана З293 са огранцима З294 и Л657 су присутни код индо-иранских народа.

Када је у питању Балкан, овдашњи народи, наравно код којих је присутна ова хаплогрупа (18-24%), Хрвати припадају готово искључиво млађем слоју ЦТС1211 огранка З280, Срби и Бошњаци већим дијелом такође млађем слоју ЦТС1211 огранка З280 уз нешто веће присуство огранка М458.
Шароликије је код Бугара, ту има више слојева, такође и присуства (иранске) гране З293.
Још шароликије је код Румуња, иако је Р1а заступљена у високом проценту код пипулаџције (око 20%), имамо заступљену и тзв германску (Л664) грану и тзв иранску (З293) грану и словенску грану ове хаплогрупе.

У сваком случају, ни са хаплогрупом Р1а није једноставно, погрешно ју је назвати словенском, она јесте у високом проценту (огранци М458 и у нешто мањој мјери З280) заступљена међу словенским народима, али заступљена је у значајном проценту и код других.

 

[Ројалиста]

Чини ми се да је то основни проблем, што се за скуп младих подграна користи назив хаплогрупе која је десетинама хиљада година старија, због чега неки мање упућени почињу кобиновати одређене хаплогрупе с одређеним историјским или савременим популацијама. Чак се ни подране не могу тако уско посматрати, а камоли целе хаплогрупе.

 

[FDDD]

Чини ми се да је то основни проблем, што се за скуп младих подграна користи назив хаплогрупе која је десетинама хиљада година старија, због чега неки мање упућени почињу кобиновати одређене хаплогрупе с одређеним историјским или савременим популацијама. Чак се ни подране не могу тако уско посматрати, а камоли целе хаплогрупе.

mislim da je Vasojevicka EV13 "evropskija" nego siptarska R1bby611

 

[Khal Drogo]

Када је у питању Е1б1б хаплогупа, ту је можда и понајвише робовања у наопаком увјерењу, а неки на овом форуму је назваше албанском, што је једноставно речено, неопјевана глупост. Додуше, ти који баљезгају те будалаштине, на форум долазе и тако да мало тролују и напишу коју провокативну, а и иначе Бог није био милостив када је интелигенција у питању, тако да их разумијемо.

Ако погледамо генезу ове хаплогрупе (овдје);

Spojler: Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA)

Haplogroup E1b1b (Y-DNA)

Author: Maciamo Hay.
Last update May 2018.

Contents
1. Geographic distribution 2. Phylogeny 3. Origins 4. E-V13 4.1 Distribution of V13 4.2 Subclades of V13 4.3 History of V13 5. E-M81 5.1 Distribution of M81 5.2 History of M81 6. E-M123 6.1. Distribution of M123 6.2 Subclades of M123 6.3 History of M123 7. Famous E1b1b individuals

Geographic distribution
Outside Europe, E1b1b is found at high frequencies in Morocco (over 80%), Somalia (80%), Ethiopia (40% to 80%), Tunisia (70%), Algeria (60%), Egypt (40%), Jordan (25%), Palestine (20%), and Lebanon (17.5%). On the European continent it has the highest concentration in Kosovo (over 45%), Albania and Montenegro (both 27%), Bulgaria (23%), Macedonia and Greece (both 21%), Cyprus (20%), Sicily (20%), South Italy (18.5%), Serbia (18%) and Romania (15%). Ashkenazi Jews have approximately 20% of E1b1b, which falls mostly under specific clades of E-M123.
Distribution of haplogroup E1b1b in Europe, the Near East and North Africa

Phylogeny of E1b1b
If you are new to genetic genealogy, please check our Introduction to phylogenetics to understand how to read a phylogenetic tree.

• E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain.
• 
  
• E-V12 is the most common subclade of M78 in southern Egypt (over 40% of the population), while its V32 subclade is the dominant paternal lineage in Somalia, southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya. The moderate presence of V12* in the Near East and across Europe (except Nordic countries) indicates that it could have been a minor Neolithic lineage. Its V32 subclade has not been found outside Northeast Africa.
• 
  
• E-V65 is found chiefly in North Africa, with a maximum frequency (20-30%) observed in Libya, Tunisia and northern Morocco. The absence of V65 from the Horn of Africa means that it would have originated in North Africa. Its TMRCA is very young, only 2,700 years. V65 has also been found at lower frequencies (0.5% to 5%) in Egypt, Greece, southern Italy, Sicily, and more interestingly among the Sardinians and the Basques, two population isolates with strong affinities with the Neolithic and Mesolithic populations of Europe, but both mostly lacking E-V13. However, V65 has not been found in the Levant, the Balkans or in non-Mediterranean Europe, which disproves a Neolithic dispersal. Its strongly North African distribution and very minor presence in parts of southern Europe with historical links to North Africa would rather suggest that this lineage was brought to southern Europe by immigrants from North Africa. In the case of Italy this could have taken place any time from the Phoenician/Carthaginian period (c. 1000-146 BCE) until the Vandal Kingdom. In Greece, V65 could have come from the ancient colonies of Cyrenaica. In Iberia, V65 could have crossed the Strait of Gibraltar any time since the late Paleolithic.

The frequency of E subclades has varied geographically over time due to founder effects in Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age populations, i.e. the migration of a small group of settlers carrying among whom one paternal lineage was much more common than any others. Examples of founder effects include E-V12 in southern Egypt, E-V13 in the Balkans, E-V32 in Somalia, E-V65 on the Mediterranean coast of Africa, and E-M81 in Northwest Africa.
Origins
Red Sea origins & Neolithic expansion
Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E-M78 and E-Z827 originated respectively at 20,000 years and 24,000 years. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested the first ancient DNA samples from the Mesolithic Natufian culture in Israel, possibly the world's oldest sedentary community, and found that the male individuals belonged either to haplogroups CT or E1b1 (including two E1b1b1b2 samples). These are to date the oldest known E1b1b individuals. The same haplogroups show up in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B Jordan, accompanied by new haplogroups (H2 and T). Besides, E1b1b was not found in Neolithic Iran or Anatolia, and only showed up twice among the hundreds of Neolithic European samples that have been tested. This evidence suggests that at the end of the last glaciation 12,000 years ago, E1b1b men were present in the Levant, but not in other parts of the Near East. There is evidence that the Natufians already cultivated cereals like rye before the Neolithic period. Cereal farming may therefore trace its roots (literally) to the E1b1b tribes of the Mesolithic Levant.
Marieke van de Loosdrecht et al. (2018) tested the DNA of seven 15,000-year-old modern humans from Taforalt Cave in northeastern Morocco, and all of the six males belonged to haplogroup E-M78. Autosomally they could be modelled as 2/3 Natufian and 1/3 Sub-Saharan African (West African), confirming the close genetic link between Late Paleolithic North Africans and Mesolithic South Levantines.
Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136.
North African Neolithic cattle herder hypothesis
Decker et al (2013) reported that Iberian and Italian cattle possess introgression from African taurine, which could imply that cattle were not just domesticated in West Asia, but also independently in North Africa. If that is the case, E-M78 or E-M123 could have come to southern Europe through North African cattle herders during the Neolithic, although this hypothesis remains purely conjectural. See also : Southern Neolithic route brought Megaliths from the Levant to Western Europe.
E1b1b1a1a1a (V13)
Geographic distribution
Distribution of haplogroup E-V13 in Europe, the Middle East & North Africa

Subclades
Origins & History
Assimilation of Neolithic European E-V13 by the Indo-Europeans
For many years the vast majority of academics have assumed that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic, and that the high frequency of E-V13 was caused by a founder effect among the colonisers. This theory has it that E1b1b people were associated with the development of Neolithic lifestyle and the advent of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and its earliest diffusion to Southeast Europe (Thessalian Neolithic) and Mediterranean Europe (Cardium Pottery culture). The testing of ancient DNA from the Natufian culture (Mesolithic Levant) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic Levant confirmed a high incidence of haplogroup E1b1b in that region. However, out of 69 Y-DNA samples tested from Neolithic Europe, only two belonged to that haplogroup: one E-M78 from the Sopot culture in Hungary (5000-4800 BCE), another E-M78 (c. 5000 BCE), possibly E-V13, from north-east Spain, and a E-L618 from Zemunica cave near Split in Croatia from 5500 BCE (Fernandes et al., 2016). Whether these E-M78 samples came with Neolithic farmers from the Near East or were already present among Mesolithic Europeans is unclear at present. But in any case E-V13 was definitely not the major Neolithic European lineage it was once alleged to be.
Nowadays E-V13 is the only Mediterranean haplogroup consistently found throughout Europe, even in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries, which are conspicuous by the absence of other Neolithic haplogroups like G2a (bar the Indo-European G2a-Z1815), J1 and T (except in Estonia). However, since G2a is the only lineage that was consistently found in all Neolithic sites tested to date in Europe, the absence of Neolithic G2a lineages from Scandinavia and the Baltic implies that no Neolithic lineage survives there, and consequently E-V13 does not date from the Neolithic in the region.
In fact, it has been calculated that E-V13 emerged from E-M78 some 7,800 years ago, when Neolithic farmers were advancing into the Balkans and the Danubian basin. Furthermore, all the modern members of E-V13 descend from a common ancestor who lived approximately 5,500 years ago, and all of them also descend from a later common ancestor who carried the CTS5856 mutation. That ancestor would have lived about 4,100 years ago, during the Bronze Age. Almost immediately afterwards, CTS5856 split into six subclades, then branched off into even more subclades in the space of a few generations. In just a few centuries, that very minor E-V13 lineage had started an expansion process that would turn it into one of Europe's most widespread paternal lineages and reach far beyond the borders of Europe itself, also spreading to the eastern edge of the Mediterranean, the Caucasus, Kurdistan, Iran, and even Siberia.
This data suggests that the fate of E-V13 was linked to the elite dominance of Bronze Age society. The geographic distribution of the six main branches show that E-V13 quickly spread to all parts of Europe, but was especially common in Central Europe. The only Bronze Age migration that could account for such a fast and far-reaching dispersal is that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-V13 developed from E-M78 in Central or Eastern Europe during the Neolithic period, and was assimilated by the R1a and R1b Proto-Indo-Europeans around the time that they were leaving the Pontic Steppe to invade the rest of Europe.
What is surprising with E-V13 is that it is as common in R1a-dominant as in R1b-dominant countries. R1a Indo-European tribes are associated with the Corded Ware culture, which spanned across Northeast Europe, Scandinavia and the northern half of Central Europe. R1b tribes invaded the Balkans, the southern half of Central Europe, and joined up with Corded Ware people in what is now Germany, the Czech Republic and western Poland. If E-V13 was found among both groups, it would have needed to be either assimilated in the Pontic Steppe or very near from it (say, in the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, around western Ukraine, Moldova and Romania), or at the junction between the two groups in central Europe (e.g. around the Czech Republic).
The distribution and age of E-V13 clades in central and western Europe are consistent with a dispersal by Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, Italic tribes (including a Roman redistribution) and the later influx of Germanic tribes, particularly the Goths, who may have assimilated additional Proto-Slavic E-V13 lineages in East Germany, Poland and Ukraine before entering the Roman Empire. (=> see also the discussions Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics? and Ancient East, West and North Germanics had different Y-DNA lineages).
Amorim et al. (2018) tested the ancient DNA from 6th century Italy and Hungary and identified one E-V13 in Collegno (Turin) who was autosomally fully Italian (not a Lombard immigrant like many other samples tested).
The eastern advance of the Corded Ware culture eventually gave rise to the Sintashta culture in the Ural region, which is the ancestral culture of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. E-V13's presence in this culture would explain why modern Iranians and Kurds possess E-V13, in addition to R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. E-V13 has been found as far away as central Siberia, near the Altai, a region also known to have been settled by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.
Due to the scarcity of full genomic sequences available from the Balkans, it is not yet clear when E-V13 expanded in that region. The Indo-European migrations would certainly have brought some E-V13 early on, from circa 2500 BCE. But the history of the region is so complex that there might be many separate branches of E-V13 that each came with a different invasion (e.g. Iranic tribes, La Tène Celts, Romans, Goths, Slavs). The first Indo-European migration to Greece was that of the Mycenaeans from c. 1650 BCE. The Dorians from Central Europe followed from c. 1200 BCE. Both could have brought different subclades of E-V13, and a founder effect or the phenomenon of elite dominance among the ruling invaders might have caused a fast growth of E-V13 lineage in Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Greece.
There are at least three distinct sources of E-V13 in Italy. The first would be the Bronze Age Italic tribes from Central Europe, who in all logic would have possessed at least some E-V13 lineages before they invaded the Italian peninsula. Proto-Italics would have been a predominantly R1b-U152 tribe, but also carried a minority of E-V13, G2a-L140 (L13, L1264 and Z1816 subclades) and J2a1-L70 (PF5456 and Z2177 subclades). The second would be the ancient Greeks, who heavily colonized southern Italy from the 9th century BCE until the Roman conquest in the 3rd century BCE. The third are the Goths. As a Germanic tribe they might have carried a small percentage of E-V13. But that percentage very certainly increased after spending several centuries in Central and Southeast Europe and assimilating Proto-Slavs and Balkanic people before invading Italy. The Goths settled over all the Italian peninsula. They would have brought typically Germanic lineages like I1 and R1b-U106, but also the Proto-Slavic R1a-CTS1211, which is now found uniformly in 1 to 2% of the population. Since R1a-CTS1211 is not originally Germanic, it is likely that the Goths also brought a small but noticeable percentage of assimilated lineages from the Balkans, including E-V13 and J2b1 (I2a1b-CTS10228 would have come later from the East Slavic migrations from Ukraine during the Early Middle Ages, hence its absence from Italy, apart from a few coastal areas facing the Adriatic Sea).
An Indo-European dispersal of V13 subclades would not only explain why E-V13 is present in places like Finland, northwest Russia or Siberia, where Neolithic farmers had a negligible impact, but also why E-V13 is so conspicuously lacking from the Basque country and (central) Sardinia, the two regions of Europe with the highest Neolithic ancestry. Sardinia is also the only part of Europe where Bronze Age Steppe ancestry is virtually absent. The low percentage of E-V13 is coastal Sardinia would be better explained by more recent settlements on the island by the Romans, or even the Goths, who also settled in Sardinia.
The small presence of E-V13 in the Near East could be better explained by the extremely long Greek presence in the eastern Mediterranean from the time of Alexander the Great until the end of the Byzantine domination over the region during the Middle Ages. It would be unthinkable that over 1,500 years of Hellenisation and Byzantine rule in Anatolia and the Levant didn't leave any genetic trace. In Anatolia, E-V13 is found mostly in the western third of the country, the region that used to belong to ancient Greece. The absence of E-V13 from Central Anatolia does not concord with a diffusion linked to Neolithic agriculture. There is clearly a radiation from the Greece (where E-V13 makes up approximately 30% of the paternal lineages) to the East Mediterranean (where the frequency drops to under 5%).


E1b1b1b1a (M81)
Geographic distribution
Distribution of haplogroup E-M81 in Europe, the Middle East & North Africa

E-M81 is found at an average frequency of 45% in the Maghreb and Libya, with peaks at over 60% in Tunisia as well as central and southern Morocco. It is especially common among Berber populations all over Northwest Africa, including the Tuaregs. Frequencies of over 75% have been reported among the Tuaregs of Burkina Faso and Mali.
In Europe, M81 is most common in Portugal (8%), Spain (4%), as well as in France (0-6%) and Italy (0-4%), where strong regional variations are observed. M81 is especially common in western Iberia, notably Extremadura (15.5%), Andalusia (13.5%), southern Portugal (11%), the Canary Islands (11%), north-west Castille (10%) and Galicia (10%). The highest percentage of E-M81 in Europe is found among the Pasiegos (30%, n=101), an isolated community living in the mountains of Cantabria.
Note the resemblance between the distribution of E-M81 and the African admixture from the Dodecad project.
Origins & History
Nowadays E-M81 is the dominant paternal lineage among Northwest Africans, and particularly Tuaregs, Mountain Moroccans, Tunisians and Libyans. Outside North Africa, M81 is far more frequent in parts of Iberia than anywhere else in Europe or the Near East. The M81 clade is defined by 150 other mutations beside M81 itself. This branch split from E1b1b during the late glacial period, approximately 14,000 years ago. It would be easy to assume that E-M81 colonised Northwest Africa during the Mesolithic or Neolithic period, then spread to southern and western Europe with the southern wave of Neolithic farmers that crossed over from Morocco to Iberia, then spread around western Europe with the Megalithic people. Yet, according to TMRCA (Time of Most Recent Common Ancestor) estimates, all carriers of this haplogroup descend from a common ancestor who lived only 2,100 years ago, about 5,000 years too late for the Neolithic hypothesis to hold ground.
The story of M81 is very unusual in that it is so young and diversified into a multitude of subclades within just a few centuries. M81 has two immediate subclades A5604 and M183 (aka PF2477 or PF2546). Under the latter no less than eight subclades have been identified at present: A930, A2227, CTS12227, FGC22844, PF2578, PF6794, MZ99 and Z5009. This indicates that a single man may have had nine sons who went on to have numerous children of their own. What is even more surprising is that these subclades do not show any consistent geographic pattern.
If the estimate of 2,100 years is correct, that would correspond approximately to the time when the Romans defeated the Carthaginians in what is now Tunisia. That would mean that the M81 lineage only started to expand in Roman times, and continued to diffuse within all the borders of the Roman Republic/Empire - not just North Africa, but also Iberia, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey and the Levant. This is a remarkably fast expansion that would have required a male line of considerable wealth and influence within the Roman Republic/Empire, and therefore probably a family of rich patricians or even a Roman emperor, not necessarily of Roman descent himself. The advantage of this hypothesis is that M81 is indeed found exclusively within the borders of the Roman Empire, and in a big part of the empire. Even within Britain it is found mainly in Wales, a region known to have served as a refuge for the Romano-British population during the Anglo-Saxon invasions.
Of course, the TMRCA is only an estimate and could vary by a few centuries. Therefore this lineage could actually have emerged a few centuries earlier, during the Phoenician/Carthaginian period. Indeed the distribution pattern and frequency of M81 matches much better the Phoenician maritime empire, with its origins in the Levant, and its dispersal along the cost of North Africa, but also Iberia, Sardinia and Sicily. In this scenario, M81 could have been the lineage of Carthaginian kings, or of a particularly prolific aristocratic familiy during the Carthaginian Republic. The merits of this hypothesis is that it would explain why M81 is so much more common in the Maghreb, and particularly in Tunisia, than in Italy today. The Carthaginians founded cities in Spain, including Carthago Nova (the New Carthage, now Cartagena in Murcia), but also in Sardinia and Sicily, where M81 is the most common today within Italy. The weak point of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain how M81 reached places like France, Britain, Greece or Turkey, nor even northern Spain.
In whichever scenario, it is clear that M81 benefited from a potent founder effect in the Maghreb, a region that was first dominated by the Carthaginian elite, but quickly became one of the favourite regions of residence for the Roman elite within the empire (along with Spain, France and Greece). Therefore both hypotheses are plausible. A combination of the two scenarios could provide an even better explanation. M81 would first have spread with the Carthaginian elite, then once they were defeated by the Romans and annexed to the empire, their descendants would have been free to migrate to various parts of the empire from North Africa, Sicily, Sardinia and Iberia, some eventually reaching France and Britain. The original Phoenician M81 in the Levant could also have diffused across the Eastern Mediterranean over the centuries, during the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman periods.
Whether origins of M81 lie in the Carthaginian or Roman elite, its parent clades M310.1 and Z827 would have originated in the Levant, and not in Northwest Africa. Z830, M310.1's brother clade, is almost exclusively Middle Eastern. M310.1 itself dates from the Late Paleolithic and could have come to Italy via Anatolia and Greece any time between the Late Glacial period and the Iron Age, including with Neolithic farmers, the Minoans, or the Etruscans.
In either case, it is likely that more M81 came into the Iberian peninsula during the Moorish period, when the Maghrebian Arabs conquered most of what is now Spain and Portugal, where they remained for over 700 years. The Moors also conquered Sicily.
E1b1b1b2a (M123)
Geographic distribution
Distribution of haplogroup E-M123 in Europe, the Middle East & North Africa

The highest frequencies of E-M123 are observed in Jordan (31% near the Dead Sea), Ethiopia (5-20%), Israel/Palestine (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews), among the Bedouins (8%), in Lebanon (5%), in North Africa (3-5%), Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%), in the Spanish region of Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%).
Subclades

Origins & History
E-M123 originated some 19,000 years ago, during the last Ice Age Its place of origin is uncertain, but it was probably in the Red Sea region, somewhere between the southern Levant and Ethiopia. Its main subclade E-M34 most probably emerged in the Levant about 15,000 years ago. Soon afterwards, M34 split into two branches, M84 and Z841, which were probably found in the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. It is not clear at present whether they expanded beyond the Near East during the Neolithic period, but they might have been part of the Neolithic expansion to North Africa and Iberia alongside haplogroups T1a and/or R1b-V88. L791 and Z21466 have a mostly European distribution today and their ages point toward a Neolithic diffusion. The PF6759 subclade seems to have reached Sardinia during the Neolithic period. The descendants of L791, Y2947 and Y4971, only appeared around 3500 BCE, during the Late Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The K257 and Y4970 branch emerged around 3000 BCE and is found in Iran, Armenia, Turkey, Russia, Greece, Italy and France, among others. It might be linked to the expansion of the Kura-Araxes culture from the southern Caucasus to Anatolia and Iran. It would then have spread to Greece and Italy alongside haplogroup J2a1 and T1a-P77. Y6923 also emerged around 3500 BCE, but became almost extinct. All modern carriers of this lineage descend from a common ancestor who lived only 1,200 years ago, and all are Ashkenazi Jews.
E-M34 lineages experienced a much more dramatic expansion during the Chalcolithic (Copper Age) period. CTS1096 split into three subclades around 7,500 to 7,000 years ago, a period that corresponds to the advent of the Copper Age around modern Kurdistan. These lineages continued to expand around the Middle East, Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age. Nowadays, the FGC18412 (aka Y5412) clade is the main variety of M123 found in Europe. Also downstream of CTS1096, the Y14891 and Z21018 clades are typically found among people of Jewish ancestry, while PF6391 and Z21421 are found in the Levant (Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan) and the Arabian peninsula. F1382 appears to have expanded during the Iron Age from the Levant to the Arabian peninsula, where it is almost exclusively found today.
Phoenician, Greek and Roman diffusions of E-M34
The classical antiquity brought new waves of colonisation across the Mediterranean. The first colonists were Phoenicians, who came from present-day Lebanon and the Tartus province of Syria. The Phoenicians possessed a variety of paternal lineages reflecting the complex ancient history of the Middle East. One of them was E-M34 (notably Levantine clades like Y15558 and Z21421), which makes up about 15% of modern Lebanese Y-DNA, but was probably higher before the Greek, Roman, Arabic, Byzantine, medieval crusader and Ottoman occupations altered the local gene pool. E-M34 is the main Middle Eastern variety of E1b1b and is thought to have arrived with the Proto-Semitic people in the Late Copper to Early Bronze Age. The Phoenicians would have spread E-M34 to Cyprus, Malta, Sicily, Sardinia, Ibiza and southern Iberia.
The ancient Greeks contributed to the rediffusion of more E-M34 (and E-V13) around places such as Cyprus, Sicily, southern Italy, Liguria, Provence, eastern Spain, and basically all part of the Classical ancient Greek world. Alexander's conquest of the Middle East would have taken Greek male lineages much further afield, perhaps as far as Afghanistan and Pakistan, although only at trace frequencies. The Greeks remained in control of the Middle East until the Roman conquest, then regained influence over the region during the Byzantine period. It is likely that most E-V13 in the Middle East is ultimately of Greek or Roman origin, although some might have come with Bronze Age Indo-European migrations via Iran.
The Etruscans, who may have come from western Anatolia, could have brought E-M34 to central Italy, which would then have been assimilated by the Romans. Migrations within the Roman Empire probably played a role, although a minor one, in the redistribution of E1b1b in Europe. The biggest genetic impact of the Romans/Italians outside of Italy appears to have been in Gaul (modern France, Belgium, southern Germany and Switzerland), probably because this was the closest region to Italy using the well-developed Roman road network (actually inherited from the Gauls themselves).

Ситуација је замршенија него код других хаплогрупа.
Имамо данас три најприсутније гране ове хаплогрупе; Е1б1б1а1а1а (Е-В13), Е1б1б1б1а (Е-М81) и Е1б1б1б2а (Е-М123)

Ако погледамо мапу ове хаплогрупе у цјелини утисак је да је то хаплогрупа својствена сјеверној Африци јер је тамо у највећем проценту заступљена.
Међутим, најраширенија грана Е-В13;

врло мало је у сјеверној Африци присутна, готово је и нема, зато је у значајном проценту (5-20%) застуопљена код свих европских народа, Ова грана је толико разграната, раширена, да је тешко рећи који су народи у историји били носиоци и допринели мање или више ширењу ове гране хаплогрупе.

Грана Е-М81 у високом проценту је присутна у сјеверној Африци, углавном међу Берберима, у Европи ако изузмемо Андалузију и дијелове Кастиље на пиринејском полуострву, готово је и нема. Знајући историју Шпаније и берберска освајања од почетка VIII вијека, јасно је зато је на тим просторима ова грана присутнија.

Грана Е-М123 је настала прије неких 19.000 година негдје између јужног Леванта и Етиопије. Главни огранак Е-М34 се појавио у Леванту пије неких 15.000 година. И данас је на блиском истоку и Анадолији најприсутнија;

Највише у Јордану (31%), а доста је заступљена и код Ашкеназа.
За ширење овог огранка Е-М34 у Европу "кривци" би могли бити Етрурци илити Расени који су се могуће из Анадолије доселили у централну Италију, ту су се стопили са народима Италије, и након експанзије Рима би се проширила овај огранак и на остале европске дијелове, мало више на западне, али има га и на нашим просторима, мало, 1-2%, није то као са Е-В13, али га има.

 

[ZabranjeniLegenda]

Vecina istoricara vjeruje da E se sirilo sa anticko-grckim trgovcima po mediteranu. Vjerovao bih da je E starosjedilacki grcki "mikenski" marker, i da kasnije dio ovog stanovnistva romanizovano i sirilo se sa balkanskim vlasima. Kasnije ovi vlasi su asimilirani u Srbe i Albance i eto danasnja E plemena.

Recimo u vezi plemena Kuča. Najvjerovatniji rodonacelnik Kuča se zove Petar Kuč koji se pominje dva puta u poveljama 1320 i 1330 godine u Katunu Ljesa Tuza sjeverno od Skadra. Genetika i dokazuje da zajednicki predak svih Kuca seze otprilike do ovog perioda.

Naziv "kuč" je romansko-vlaskog porijekla od vulgarne latinske rijeci "cocceus" za crveno. Na albanskom je ovo izgovoreno drugacije "Kuq" (Kuć) sto je isto pozajmica od latinske rijeci. Dakle rodonacelnik Petar Kuč, ili Petar Crveni najvjerovatnije je bio Roman ili vec Polu-slovenizirani roman koji je zivio medju slovenskim i albanskim stanovnistvom.

 

[gost 428502]

Vecina istoricara vjeruje da E se sirilo sa anticko-grckim trgovcima po mediteranu. Vjerovao bih da je E starosjedilacki grcki "mikenski" marker, i da kasnije dio ovog stanovnistva romanizovano i sirilo se sa balkanskim vlasima. Kasnije ovi vlasi su asimilirani u Srbe i Albance i eto danasnja E plemena.

Recimo u vezi plemena Kuča. Najvjerovatniji rodonacelnik Kuča se zove Petar Kuč koji se pominje dva puta u poveljama 1320 i 1330 godine u Katunu Ljesa Tuza sjeverno od Skadra. Genetika i dokazuje da zajednicki predak svih Kuca seze otprilike do ovog perioda.

Naziv "kuč" je romansko-vlaskog porijekla od vulgarne latinske rijeci "cocceus" za crveno. Na albanskom je ovo izgovoreno drugacije "Kuq" (Kuć) sto je isto pozajmica od latinske rijeci. Dakle rodonacelnik Petar Kuč, ili Petar Crveni najvjerovatnije je bio Roman ili vec Polu-slovenizirani roman koji je zivio medju slovenskim i albanskim stanovnistvom.

Složio bih se sa ovim.

Mada, ima još jedna interesantna teza.
Naime prezime kuč se javlja širom slovenskog sveta, postoji i lingvistička podloga koja bi mogla eventulno dokazati da se radi o slovenskoj reči.
Konto toga u staro Kučima postoje R1a i I2a.
Jedino je za najveći i najorganizovaniji rod u Kučima,Kuče Drekaloviće izvesno da su E-V13 i da su svi istog porekla.

Vasojevići imaju neka poklapanja po Poljskoj, takođe njihova podgrana je udaljena od kuča i bjelopavlića 4000 godina. Neke E1b grane se javljaju i kod Rusina.

U svakom slučaju treba biti oprezan.

 

[gost 428502]

mislim da je Vasojevicka EV13 "evropskija" nego siptarska R1bby611

Rogobatan izraz, ne znam kako da ti sročim odgovor, a da ne izađe iz okvira.

E-V13 koja je kod Vasojevića, javlja se dugo unazad svuda po evropi. U tom kontekstu se može posmatrati kao nešto manje mediteranska u odnosu na nege druge grane E1b.

Inače haplogrupa ne može biti ,,evropskija".

Pretpostavljam da si mislio na neko poređenje Vasojevića sa Albancima? U kontekstu toga, Vasojevići su Srbi i verovatno dosta rano ulaze u srpski etnos, a kod Srba gotovo da i nema ne evropskih primesa bez obzira na haplogrupu.
Kod Albanaca je slučaj ,,egzotične" genetike učestaliji, mada ne toliko koliko bi se možda moglo očekivati. Uostalom postoje neka plemena koja su turskog porekla kada su Albanci u pitanju.

 

[ZabranjeniLegenda]

Složio bih se sa ovim.

Mada, ima još jedna interesantna teza.
Naime prezime kuč se javlja širom slovenskog sveta, postoji i lingvistička podloga koja bi mogla eventulno dokazati da se radi o slovenskoj reči.

To sam gledao u onoj SrbijaGlobal emisiji. Mora se provjeriti i ta prezimena, da nijesu potomci doseljenika sa Balkana (bilo je puno srpskih kolonija po Ukrajini i doseljavanja u Rusiji).

Sta bi bilo znacenje rijeci "Kuč" na tim slovenskim jezicima?

Mora se prisjetiti da ime "Kuč" najvjerovatnije je bilo licno ime ili nadimak, s'obzirom da su Drekalovici i novo Kuci istog pretka. Tako da teorija o Kucima kao stara geografska odrednica ili kao staroslovenska rijec za "kuća" ili "ker" ne bi imalo toliko smisla.

Dodamo i saznanja o "Petrom Kucu" kao i cinjenica da arbanski dio plemena Kuca se zove "Koći", mogucnost vlaskog porijekla imena "Kuc" po cocceus je vjerovatnija i logicnija.

Konto toga u staro Kučima postoje R1a i I2a.
Jedino je za najveći i najorganizovaniji rod u Kučima,Kuče Drekaloviće izvesno da su E-V13 i da su svi istog porekla.

Mislim da je potvrdjeno da su i Drekalovici i staro Kuci istog roda, E-V13.

Vasojevići imaju neka poklapanja po Poljskoj, takođe njihova podgrana je udaljena od kuča i bjelopavlića 4000 godina. Neke E1b grane se javljaju i kod Rusina.
U svakom slučaju treba biti oprezan.

Normalno. Ako kod Rusina, i juzne Poljske, odnosno Zakarpatije onda opet govorimo o mijesano romansko-vlaskoj teritoriji.

 

[gost 428502]

To sam gledao u onoj SrbijaGlobal emisiji. Mora se provjeriti i ta prezimena, da nijesu potomci doseljenika sa Balkana (bilo je puno srpskih kolonija po Ukrajini i doseljavanja u Rusiji).

Sta bi bilo znacenje rijeci "Kuč" na tim slovenskim jezicima?

Mora se prisjetiti da ime "Kuč" najvjerovatnije je bilo licno ime ili nadimak, s'obzirom da su Drekalovici i novo Kuci istog pretka. Tako da teorija o Kucima kao stara geografska odrednica ili kao staroslovenska rijec za "kuća" ili "ker" ne bi imalo toliko smisla.

Dodamo i saznanja o "Petrom Kucu" kao i cinjenica da arbanski dio plemena Kuca se zove "Koći", mogucnost vlaskog porijekla imena "Kuc" po cocceus je vjerovatnija i logicnija.



Mislim da je potvrdjeno da su i Drekalovici i staro Kuci istog roda, E-V13.



Normalno. Ako kod Rusina, i juzne Poljske, odnosno Zakarpatije onda opet govorimo o mijesano romansko-vlaskoj teritoriji.

Slažem se da je mnogo logičnija romanska verzija.
Međutim postoji i ova teza koju sam gore izneo.
Staro Kuči koji su testirani imaju nešto R1a, mada to nije( barem za moje znanje) tako detaljno obrađeno i neki zvanični zaključak nije donesen.
Moguće da su ti R1a doseljenici u staro kuče.
Ima raznih toponima sličnim kuč, npr Kučevo itd.
To bi trebalo da znači prostor iza ili znad Kuće.

Na kraju krajeva bilo koja teza da je tačna to ne menja puno. Oni su svakako prve etničke, narodne, a kasnije i nacionalne osećaje razvili kao Srbi.

 

[ZabranjeniLegenda]

Slažem se da je mnogo logičnija romanska verzija.
Međutim postoji i ova teza koju sam gore izneo.
Staro Kuči koji su testirani imaju nešto R1a, mada to nije( barem za moje znanje) tako detaljno obrađeno i neki zvanični zaključak nije donesen.
Moguće da su ti R1a doseljenici u staro kuče.
Ima raznih toponima sličnim kuč, npr Kučevo itd.
To bi trebalo da znači prostor iza ili znad Kuće.

Na kraju krajeva bilo koja teza da je tačna to ne menja puno. Oni su svakako prve etničke, narodne, a kasnije i nacionalne osećaje razvili kao Srbi.

Koliko znam testirani staro Kuci, Nikezici su E-V13. I da 90% svih Kuča pripadaju ovom rodu. Dakle Drekalovici su samo ogranak staro-Kuca i da je u pitanju vjerovatno bila druga majka. (Po predanju Drekalovica Drekale kao beba sa majkom dodju u Kuce i osvoji ih starokucki Vojvoda Nikeza, vjerovatnije je Drekale bio sin Nikezin ali od druge zene).

Toponim Kučevo bi implicirao da se radi o licnom imenu.

Mapa roda Kuca:

https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Crna_Gora_-_Rod_Kuca_1913.png

 

[FDDD]

Rogobatan izraz, ne znam kako da ti sročim odgovor, a da ne izađe iz okvira.

E-V13 koja je kod Vasojevića, javlja se dugo unazad svuda po evropi. U tom kontekstu se može posmatrati kao nešto manje mediteranska u odnosu na nege druge grane E1b.

Inače haplogrupa ne može biti ,,evropskija".

Pretpostavljam da si mislio na neko poređenje Vasojevića sa Albancima? U kontekstu toga, Vasojevići su Srbi i verovatno dosta rano ulaze u srpski etnos, a kod Srba gotovo da i nema ne evropskih primesa bez obzira na haplogrupu.
Kod Albanaca je slučaj ,,egzotične" genetike učestaliji, mada ne toliko koliko bi se možda moglo očekivati. Uostalom postoje neka plemena koja su turskog porekla kada su Albanci u pitanju.

hteo sam da uporedim odnos recimo Vasojevicke grane EV13 i neke istocne R1b, koliko moze da bude daleko od zapadne R1b a nominalno su ista haplogrupa.