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S pogolema govorna mana.
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Старословенско Ѫ се претворило у У на српском а у Ъ у словенским дијалектима Бугарске.
На пример стрс. "рѫка", српски "рука", буг "ръка", макед. "рака".
Ѫгълъ је постао на староштокавском "Угал" да би у новоштокавском дао "Угао", у словенским дијалектима Бугарске то је горепоменути Ъгъл (= Агал, "а" кратко).
Иначе дебело јер је и Вук Караџић у почетку користио, може се наћи у најранијим његовим и Даничићевим преводима Библије, на пример умръо.
The Anatolian Bulgarians or Bulgarians of Asia Minor
http://ziezi.tripod.com/anadol/venedikova.htm
http://www.promacedonia.org/giliev/dsh/dsh_02.htm
https://dariknews.bg/regioni/burgas/bylgari-v-anadola-727874
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Bulgarians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides
- The existence of Bulgarian villages in Anatolia was noted by western travellers such as the Italian Dr Salvatori (1807), the Frenchman J.M. Tancoigne and the Briton George Keppel (1829). Tancoigne describes his experience in Kız-Dervent (located farther east, between İzmit and İznik) as follows:
"We were pleasantly surprised by finding in that village women who would walk with their faces uncovered, and men whose manners contradicted the Asian ones entirely. We also discovered dresses of the residents of the Danube's banks and heard a Slavic language in an area where we would regard it as absolutely foreign ... The locals told us they were of Bulgarian origin and their village had been founded almost a century ago by their fathers ... The residents of that village are Christians, Eastern Orthodox."
- According to the third theory held by the Turkish author Necip Asım and Bulgarian authors the Karamanlides may be descendants of exiled Slavic-speaking Bulgarians after the conquest of the First Bulgarian Empire by the Byzantine Empire, who were concentrated around the mountain with the survived name Bulgar Dagh. This event was mentioned by the Armenian historian Aristakes Lastivertsi in 1072, who described the event as a disaster and horror for the places where Bulgarians passed. The territory was conquered by the Seljuk Turks first during the Battle of Manzikert. The author Necip Asım provided more than 150 historical accounts (written as late as 1517) literally speaking of Bulgarian Asker, Eller, Beylers, Beys, their rulers Yahsha Khan, Aydin Bey, Vizier Assen and Queen Catherine, who were Christian allies or vassals of the Karamanids or Seljuks.
According to Hodja Dehani, when the ancestors of the Karamans came to Asia Minor from Shirvan and settled in the southern part of the peninsula around 1217-1228 AD, they found the Bulgarians in and around the Bulgarian Mountains and even for a year they fought with them. After that, the Karamans and Bulgarians joined as allies, and perhaps also enter in vassal relations and carried out joint military activities continuously from the 13th century until the first quarter of the XVI century. Nearly a century ago, the Asia Minor Bulgarians claimed that the Karamanlides were Turkified Bulgarians.
- Necip Asım provides the Arabic text, which he added later to the expanded Turkish version of "The History of Karaman".
A branch of the Bulgarian tribe, who from the time of the Seljuk and Karamans, after the Mongolians (hence after 1243 AD), lived in the area of Beychehir in the endless Erenkollof mountain. Towards the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 16th century these Bulgarians chose for their queen a maiden named Katerina, who had 10,000 armed people.
When the Karamans, threatened by the Ottomans, retreated to the Bulgarian Mountains, the peasants from the borders of Konya to the borders of Beychehir remained under the authority of Katerina.
The Bulgarians of Katerina and herself were overthrown by the army of Selim before his march to Egypt and Arabia.
Particularly valuable are the notes of Necip Asım in the second half of the article on the language, religion and origin of these Bulgarians. He noted that "it may reasonably be thought that the Orthodox who are now in those places (from Beychehir to Konya) and speak Turkish, are the remains of those Bulgarians."
Asım highlights something very important, which is not written by other investigators, nor is it clear from the Karaman History, except for the name of the Queen of the Bulgarians from Beychehir to Konya, Katerina, in the annex to the extended Turkish version of the chronicle, which speaks of Christian origin: the language of these Bulgarians is Slavic, and their religion is Christian. This shows that they are from Balkan Bulgarians.
Asım affirms that the documents in his possession indicate that these Bulgarians (from Beychehir to Konya) and the Bulgarians in Tash or (around the Bulgarian Mountains) have been here since Seljuk times (probably as early as the 11th century), and that it is written that in the Seljuk army there were Bulgarians and Levantines - Europeans, born in the east.
Also, sources for the 12th century recorded Slavic and Bulgarian presence in Asia Minor. In the chronicle of Abu Mansur al-Hazini, "The remarkable days of the Seljuk State," in a chronicle note for Sanjar, ruled from 1117 to 1157, are explicitly mentioned "Slavic regions Suvar, Bulgar and Ankara ..." (quote from Tatarli, 1982).
http://ziezi.tripod.com/anadol/venedikova.htm
http://www.promacedonia.org/giliev/dsh/dsh_02.htm
https://dariknews.bg/regioni/burgas/bylgari-v-anadola-727874
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Bulgarians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides
- The existence of Bulgarian villages in Anatolia was noted by western travellers such as the Italian Dr Salvatori (1807), the Frenchman J.M. Tancoigne and the Briton George Keppel (1829). Tancoigne describes his experience in Kız-Dervent (located farther east, between İzmit and İznik) as follows:
"We were pleasantly surprised by finding in that village women who would walk with their faces uncovered, and men whose manners contradicted the Asian ones entirely. We also discovered dresses of the residents of the Danube's banks and heard a Slavic language in an area where we would regard it as absolutely foreign ... The locals told us they were of Bulgarian origin and their village had been founded almost a century ago by their fathers ... The residents of that village are Christians, Eastern Orthodox."
- According to the third theory held by the Turkish author Necip Asım and Bulgarian authors the Karamanlides may be descendants of exiled Slavic-speaking Bulgarians after the conquest of the First Bulgarian Empire by the Byzantine Empire, who were concentrated around the mountain with the survived name Bulgar Dagh. This event was mentioned by the Armenian historian Aristakes Lastivertsi in 1072, who described the event as a disaster and horror for the places where Bulgarians passed. The territory was conquered by the Seljuk Turks first during the Battle of Manzikert. The author Necip Asım provided more than 150 historical accounts (written as late as 1517) literally speaking of Bulgarian Asker, Eller, Beylers, Beys, their rulers Yahsha Khan, Aydin Bey, Vizier Assen and Queen Catherine, who were Christian allies or vassals of the Karamanids or Seljuks.
According to Hodja Dehani, when the ancestors of the Karamans came to Asia Minor from Shirvan and settled in the southern part of the peninsula around 1217-1228 AD, they found the Bulgarians in and around the Bulgarian Mountains and even for a year they fought with them. After that, the Karamans and Bulgarians joined as allies, and perhaps also enter in vassal relations and carried out joint military activities continuously from the 13th century until the first quarter of the XVI century. Nearly a century ago, the Asia Minor Bulgarians claimed that the Karamanlides were Turkified Bulgarians.
- Necip Asım provides the Arabic text, which he added later to the expanded Turkish version of "The History of Karaman".
A branch of the Bulgarian tribe, who from the time of the Seljuk and Karamans, after the Mongolians (hence after 1243 AD), lived in the area of Beychehir in the endless Erenkollof mountain. Towards the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 16th century these Bulgarians chose for their queen a maiden named Katerina, who had 10,000 armed people.
When the Karamans, threatened by the Ottomans, retreated to the Bulgarian Mountains, the peasants from the borders of Konya to the borders of Beychehir remained under the authority of Katerina.
The Bulgarians of Katerina and herself were overthrown by the army of Selim before his march to Egypt and Arabia.
Particularly valuable are the notes of Necip Asım in the second half of the article on the language, religion and origin of these Bulgarians. He noted that "it may reasonably be thought that the Orthodox who are now in those places (from Beychehir to Konya) and speak Turkish, are the remains of those Bulgarians."
Asım highlights something very important, which is not written by other investigators, nor is it clear from the Karaman History, except for the name of the Queen of the Bulgarians from Beychehir to Konya, Katerina, in the annex to the extended Turkish version of the chronicle, which speaks of Christian origin: the language of these Bulgarians is Slavic, and their religion is Christian. This shows that they are from Balkan Bulgarians.
Asım affirms that the documents in his possession indicate that these Bulgarians (from Beychehir to Konya) and the Bulgarians in Tash or (around the Bulgarian Mountains) have been here since Seljuk times (probably as early as the 11th century), and that it is written that in the Seljuk army there were Bulgarians and Levantines - Europeans, born in the east.
Also, sources for the 12th century recorded Slavic and Bulgarian presence in Asia Minor. In the chronicle of Abu Mansur al-Hazini, "The remarkable days of the Seljuk State," in a chronicle note for Sanjar, ruled from 1117 to 1157, are explicitly mentioned "Slavic regions Suvar, Bulgar and Ankara ..." (quote from Tatarli, 1982).
У ком смислу архаичнији? Ако мислиш да је ближи старословенском, сматрам, уосталом потоје и студије где се види да је српски ближи.
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Srpski je sa 7 padeza svakako blizi, nego govorim da je leksicki blizi ruskom jer su dosta reci nakon oslobodjenja od Osmanlija uzeli od Rusa.
Ту се слажем, ал онда опет не може бити говор о архаизаму о нечему узето/увезено у 19 веку.
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Ruski je arhaican sto se toga tice, crkvenoslovenski je odigrao veliku ulogu.
Не знам колико је модерни руски близак црквенословенском и колико црквенословенски (руска редакција) близак старословенском. Овде има неколико квантитативна упоређивања словенских језика
http://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/101731/A_Linguistica_53-2005-1_5.pdf
Поготово таблица на 63 страна.
Ту се тврди да је чешки најближи (лексички) старословенском, српски је близу врху док је руски задњи након украинског. Бугарски је исто тамо на дну, мада да се разумемо сви словенски језици јесу близу, у питању су милиметри не километри..
Interesantno da Sloveni u prapostojbini Ukrajini govore jezikom najdaljim od staroslovenskog. Kako se to objašnjava?
I šta predstavlja ovo "chor" u tabeli?
I šta predstavlja ovo "chor" u tabeli?
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Chor = chorvatský, т.е. хрватски
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Licno ruski savrseno razumem, a nikad ga ucio nisam. Meni je bugarski cudno zvuci najnerazumljiviji, a u susedstvu je. Odsustvo padeza je kljucno.
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Говоримо о нијансама, као што је колега изнад већ поменуо. Савремени стандардни чешки језик се добрим делом ослања на језик из 16. века, што донекле може да објасни његову наводну већу сличност црквенословенском. Ипак, чињеница да се за хрватски тврди да је сличнији црквенословенском од српског, указује на повелику маргину грешке. Шта је то могло допринети тој разлици? Реч 'тисућу'?
Не треба губити из ума да је овде искључиво реч о лексичкој сличности. Бугарски и македонски су, због губитка падежа, граматички можда и најудаљенији од црквенословенског.
Мислим да је овој дискусији место на подфоруму 'Језик'. Штета је што је не водимо тамо.
Не треба губити из ума да је овде искључиво реч о лексичкој сличности. Бугарски и македонски су, због губитка падежа, граматички можда и најудаљенији од црквенословенског.
Мислим да је овој дискусији место на подфоруму 'Језик'. Штета је што је не водимо тамо.
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Preselimo se.
Да тисућа и слично прави ту малу разлику- мислим да се поређују скуп синонима једног језика са другим. Што се тиче граматичке дистанце, иронично је да је управо македонски најудаљенији граматички од старословенског са обзиром старословенски базиран на језика Словена око Солуна.
По мени губитак падежа као и осталих партикуларности код Македонског (и Бугарског) долази од контакта са романофоног становништва. Знамо да вулгарни (народни) латински језик је скоро изгубио падеже до 5 века, Влашки односно Арумунски језик има поприлично граматичка сличност са Македонским. Власи у Бугарској су друга тема - друго Бугарско царство по многима је почела као Влашка држава итд.
Incident koji je zapisao Niketas (u Alex. Is. fil. i. c. 5, p. 617, ed. Bonn) - svestenik je bio zarobljen i zamolio je Asena na vlaskom, "koji je bio i njegov jezik" --> δείται του Άσαν αφεθήναι, δ' ομοφωνίας ως ίδρις της των Βλάχων φωνής.
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Да, то заиста јесте занимљиво и свакако указује на веће присуство несловенског елемента на тим просторима. Другог објашњења нема. Романофоно становништво је свакао чинило део тог несловенског елемента, али било је несумњиво и хеленофона и других.
Македонски, бугарски, румунски и албански посебно, али и призренско-тимочки дијалект српског језика, затим грчки, ромски и ладино (језик наших сефардских Јевреја) деле многе сличностима у граматици, синтакси, речнику и фонологији. У лингвистици се то зове Balkan sprachbund, тј Балканска језичка заједница. Постоји више теорија о пореклу тих заједничких особина, али то је већ друга тема.
Бугарски патријарх Кирил у млађим годинама
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BASA_1318K-1-5949-11_Patriarch_Kiril_young.jpg
Патријарх бугарски Кирил (буг. Кирил Български; Софија, 3. јануар 1901 — Софија, 7. март 1971) је био патријарх Бугарске православне цркве од 1953. до 1971. године.
The Patriarch of Sofia Cyril was the first Patriarch of the restored Patriarchate of Bulgaria.
He was born in Sofia by devout Orthodox parents in a poor seven-member family (he was the fourth boy) and his secular name was Konstantin Markov Konstantinov. At birth, however, he was called Costas Patsou (Коста Пачу). His parents, Markos and Polyxeni, were Graeco-Vlachs and came from the region of Korce of Northern Epirus (southern Albania).
Specifically, his mother, Polyxeni, was of Graeco-Vlach descent from Moschopoli. His father Markos was born in Grabova, a village of Korytsa/Korce, which shared the Fate of the famous Moschopoli. Markos Patsou moved to Sofia in 1886 and dealt with trade. He died in Sofia on December 11, 1933.
The Bulgarian ethnographer Dimitar Kalinov notes that: "The "Cincari" who came to [in Bulgaria] from Moschopoli knew Greek so we called them Greeks."
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BASA_1318K-1-5949-11_Patriarch_Kiril_young.jpg
Патријарх бугарски Кирил (буг. Кирил Български; Софија, 3. јануар 1901 — Софија, 7. март 1971) је био патријарх Бугарске православне цркве од 1953. до 1971. године.
The Patriarch of Sofia Cyril was the first Patriarch of the restored Patriarchate of Bulgaria.
He was born in Sofia by devout Orthodox parents in a poor seven-member family (he was the fourth boy) and his secular name was Konstantin Markov Konstantinov. At birth, however, he was called Costas Patsou (Коста Пачу). His parents, Markos and Polyxeni, were Graeco-Vlachs and came from the region of Korce of Northern Epirus (southern Albania).
Specifically, his mother, Polyxeni, was of Graeco-Vlach descent from Moschopoli. His father Markos was born in Grabova, a village of Korytsa/Korce, which shared the Fate of the famous Moschopoli. Markos Patsou moved to Sofia in 1886 and dealt with trade. He died in Sofia on December 11, 1933.
The Bulgarian ethnographer Dimitar Kalinov notes that: "The "Cincari" who came to [in Bulgaria] from Moschopoli knew Greek so we called them Greeks."
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А тадашњи "влашки" је који језик?
Да није записан тадашњи влашки?
Видиш ли проблем?
А двојезичност?
Имаш ли у тринаестом веку сведочење неког "Влаха" , у првом лицу једнине, о себи и својима?
А у четрнаестом веку Срби помињу влахе--сточаре.
Постоји ли сточарској језик?
Преостаје нам само гледање у пасуљ, а ја се тим не бих бавио.
Садржај термина "Влах" тек од шеснаестог столећа можеш да почнеш да повезујеш са Румунима, са одређеном сигурношћу.
До тада, то је више него проблематично.
Садржаји термина се мењају у зависности од контекста и од просторне и временск координате.
Термин "Норманин" може да значи: Викинг, Данац и Норвежаниин, Француз, па и Енглез, у зависности од контекста и у зависности од временске и просторне координате.
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tursko.tatarsko poreklo
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Заборавио си да додадеш "циганско".Турско-татарско-циганско порекло.
U sustini te razumem, i tvoju poentu. Imas dobra pitanja i zapazanja. Sadrzaj termina "Vlah", kao i ostalih termina, zavisi od konteksta i vremena.
Evo sta Laonikos Chalkokondyles (ca. 1468) pise o Vlasima i njihovom jeziku.
On kaze da Vlasi: "speak a language that is similar to that of the Italians, but so corrupted and different from it that it is difficult for the Italians to understand anything they say, unless they recognize words that are spoken distinctly" (Histories 2.22).
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У деветом веку Византијски Цар Лео пише Власи који су споменути као колонија Италијанаца:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_...am fuisse colonia Italorum memorantur&f=false
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У деветом веку Византијски Цар Лео пише Власи који су споменути као колонија Италијанаца:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_...am fuisse colonia Italorum memorantur&f=false
Ово су Румуни, несумњиво. Па о Дакији се говори.
А то што се веровало, да су италијански колонисти у питању, стави у контекст са осталим веровањима тога времена.
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А ко оно спомиње да су Власи Дачани?
