I cannot find the original work of Hron on-line, but it seems genuine.
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I cannot find the original work of Hron on-line, but it seems genuine.
What is the "official response" of Bulgarian historians to this?
We are talking about a historical document from 1889/1890.
We are talking about a historical document from 1889/1890.
The Graeat Gatsby
Veoma poznat
- Poruka
- 12.474
Jovan Deretic kaze da su to srbi. Sad, ne znam ja!!!!
no idea. But what you quoted of Hron looked like a political project by a foreign power/Empire. The Austro-Hungarian aspirations towards Thessaloniki and the Vardar valley are well known. As are the Austro-Russian desires to partition the Balkans in corresponding spheres of influence after 1877.
Svima_Mili_&_Dragi
Aktivan član
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Мој чукундеда, отац бабе по оцу моје мајке, погинуо тамо на Једрену у балканском рату. Млађи син му је умро као шипарац 1911, старији је био заробљен неколико година касније у Великом рату, као тек ожењен без деце, и умро у аустроугарском логору.
За чукундедом остале две кћери (укључујући моју прабабу), снаха-удовица за старијег сина која се после 3 године преудала, жена и стари родитељи.
А чему његова смрт? Да би се после Једрене ипак вратило Турској? И зар би било боље да је бугарско? Шта смо ми из Србије уопште имали с тим?
So, what are you saying? That Karl Hron conjured up Macedonians in 1889/1890?
1) No TITO involved!
1939 - Australian magazine report: Bulgaria has 11 different nationalities, including Macedonians.
Pix Magazine., v.4, no.20, 1939-11-11 (ISSN: 0032-0390)
URL:
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-46707613...50&partId=nla.obj-467422206#page/n35/mode/1up
2) Бугарската нација се создавала со поткупување aгитaтoри?
Како Македонци станувале “бугарски” национални дејци – „Ќе ми даваш пари, ќе станам бугарин“… (“Од спомените” на бугарскиот преродбеник Петар Берковски од град Лом, 1894)
URL:
https://www.facebook.com/macedoniaendless/photos/бугарската-нација-се-создавала-со-поткупување-aгитaтoрикако-македонци-станувале-/654804914545402/
3) A group of Prilep residents in July of 1887 petitioned the Ottoman sultan Abdul Hamid II (1842-1918) to allow them to open a Macedonian public school in Prilep, since they are not Bulgarians and don't recognise the Bulgarian church schools.
They expressed their wish to be protected by the authority of the Roman Pope, but to be allowed to practice Eastern Orthodoxy.
4) Песна од Бобоштица, Корча (Албанија):
"Кога беше болен Александар пита да пие една чеша вода македонска и рече: Да го чу све империјата аманет оставам, шо гробот мој е Македонија. Европо разбуди се, отвори книгата бјела, таму се пиши имјето Македонија. Ние не сме Грци, Срби, ни Бугари".
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If some people from 1939, or 1887 claimed they are Macedonians, so they must have been. (I leave aside that Vlachs, Turks from Ottoman Macedonia also regarded themselves as Macedonians, kind of. + Albanians like Pjetër Bogdani, etc.) The point regarding those Slavophone inhabitants of Macedonia who identified as nothing but "Macedonians" (i.e. the pillar of the Yugoslav, and post-Yugoslav, historiography) is that their influence was negligible till the XX c. One can write a history of Macedonia up to the XX c., up to the WWI actually, without having to mention any non-Bulgarian, non-Serbian "Macedonian" movements at all.
perhaps, as any other nation. I don't even want to go into details of your cases (for Australia, for example, you probably know that the first churches established there were "Macedono-Bulgarian" actually), but bear at least in mind that lots of people, Bulgarians including, identified with Alex the Great throught the ages.
Are you reffering to Life of St Clement of Ohrid statement from 13th century? As I understand, according to this writing Bulgarians are expeled by Alexander the Great to the northern lands .
no. I refer to the ideological claims of tsars like Simeon (893–927) and Ivan Alexander (1331–1371). See for example the Preslav treasure (X c.) plaque with the composition "Ascention of Alexander the Great" (google). This plaque was perhaps a central part of a royal diadem of Simeon:
There is also an interesting exchange between Svjatoslav of Kiev (945-972) and John Tzimiskes (969-976) in Leon the Deacon, where Tzimiskes urges Svjatoslav to leave Bulgaria as it was part of Macedonia, and Svjatoslav saying in a reply that he won't leave Bulgaria and it was the Byzantines who should move to Asia and leave Europe which doesn't belong to them.
(See pages 574-575 in В. Златарски, История..; see also Лев Диакон, кн. 6 in Russian translation: "8. ... А с катархонтом войска росов, Сфендославом, он решил вести переговоры. И вот [Иоанн] отрядил к нему послов с требованием, чтобы он, получив обещанную императором Никифором за набег на мисян награду [39], удалился в свои области и к Киммерийскому Боспору [40], покинув Мисию, которая принадлежит ромеям [41] и издавна считается частью Македонии [42]. ... 10. Сфендослав очень гордился своими победами над мисянами; ... Ромейским послам [Сфендослав] ответил надменно и дерзко: "... Если же ромеи не захотят заплатить то, что я требую, пусть тотчас же покинут Европу, на которую они не имеют права, и убираются в Азию [63].)
It is doubtful this idea was constructed in Kiev. Svjatoslav's word probably repeat an already existing view held in Bulgaria. See the description of the Constantinople meeting in 924 between Simeon and Roman Lekapenos in S. Runciman, History.., pages 169-172:
For Ivan Alexander see the translation of the chronicle of Constantine Manasses, ordered by him. In its Vatican copy, after the words "іѡанъ алеѯандръ въ Христа Бога вѣрен цр҃ь и самодръжец вьсѣм бл҃гарѡм и гръком" there is a Latin commentary, calling Ivan Alexander "Iohannes Alexander Macedo" (Iohannes Alexander Macedo ad cujus petitionem iste liber fuit translatus de Graeco in Slavonico). See also pages 253-254 in Ив. Билярски, М. Цибраска-Костова, Вербални формули и образи за възхвала на владетеля в средновековна България (Црквене студије, Ниш, 2010) for the chronicle of Manasses again, where Ivan Alexander is called "the second Alexander" (after the first Alexander - Alexander of Macedon).
In the XIXth c. there was a Bulgarian revolutionary Georgi Rakovski (born Съби Стойков Попович, in Kotel, Eastern Bulgaria). He had a Greek passport as well (which btw saved his life one, when he was sentenced to death in Braila, Wallachia), in which he called himself Georgi Makedon.
Western travellers, in the XVII c. I think, passing through Plovdiv/Philippopolis, described its inhabitants as "Macedonians, speaking in Greek and Bulgarian", etc., etc. One has to write an article or a booklet to mention everything, even the Ottoman sultans claimed Alexander of Macedon, but the point is that the claims to exclusivity over Alex by some historians in Skopje look funny.
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Gruban
Buduća legenda
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Naziv teme morao bi biti promenjen u Poreklo Severnih Makedonaca.
@Васил, can you please elaborate on your point regarding those Slavophone inhabitants of Macedonia who identified as nothing but "Macedonians" (i.e. the pillar of the Yugoslav, and post-Yugoslav, historiography) is that their influence was negligible till the XX c. One can write a history of Macedonia up to the XX c., up to the WWI actually, without having to mention any non-Bulgarian, non-Serbian "Macedonian" movements at all.
How have you analyzed / quantified that their influence was negligible? Do you have a specific number/percentage as to how negligible it was? Would you be willing to bet your house on your guess?
Why did you "leave aside" that Vlachs, Turks from Ottoman Macedonia also regarded themselves as Macedonians, kind of? Care to clarify? If Vlachs identified, fought, or continue to identify as Macedonians, how would this be any different from Vlachs identifying as Vlachophone Hellenes in Greece? I leave aside the fact that historical populations of Epirus, Thessaly, Attica, Boeotia and other regions of modern Greece were largely composed of (bilingual) Vlach-speaking and Arvanite-speaking "Greeks" well into the 18th century.
Macedono-Bulgarians:
1)
Rudolphe Archibald Reiss (1875-1929) was a German-Swiss law professor, invited by the Greek PM Venizelos to investigate the living conditions of the natives that populated the newly acquired northern territories (Aegean Macedonia) after the Balkan wars of 1912 & 1913. Reiss in his report in 1915 writes that the inhabitants of Macedonia speak Macedonian which is not spoken in Sofia or Belgrade & that it is a separate language. He also writes that the Macedonians are not Bulgarians nor Serbs, just Macedonians.
2)
1903 US newspaper differentiates between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages. Perth Amboy evening news, New Jersey, US, December 05, 1903, NIGHT EDITION, Page 2
URL:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...ge+&y=14&x=14&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
3)
1905 US Jewish leader Leon Zolotkoff says Macedonians are a distinct nationality. "The Greeks, Roumanians & Macedonians have established nationalities within the past century" Omaha Daily Bee newspaper, Nebraska US, November 14 1905
URL:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...ty+&y=21&x=10&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=3
How have you analyzed / quantified that their influence was negligible? Do you have a specific number/percentage as to how negligible it was? Would you be willing to bet your house on your guess?
Why did you "leave aside" that Vlachs, Turks from Ottoman Macedonia also regarded themselves as Macedonians, kind of? Care to clarify? If Vlachs identified, fought, or continue to identify as Macedonians, how would this be any different from Vlachs identifying as Vlachophone Hellenes in Greece? I leave aside the fact that historical populations of Epirus, Thessaly, Attica, Boeotia and other regions of modern Greece were largely composed of (bilingual) Vlach-speaking and Arvanite-speaking "Greeks" well into the 18th century.
Macedono-Bulgarians:
1)
Rudolphe Archibald Reiss (1875-1929) was a German-Swiss law professor, invited by the Greek PM Venizelos to investigate the living conditions of the natives that populated the newly acquired northern territories (Aegean Macedonia) after the Balkan wars of 1912 & 1913. Reiss in his report in 1915 writes that the inhabitants of Macedonia speak Macedonian which is not spoken in Sofia or Belgrade & that it is a separate language. He also writes that the Macedonians are not Bulgarians nor Serbs, just Macedonians.
2)
1903 US newspaper differentiates between Macedonian and Bulgarian languages. Perth Amboy evening news, New Jersey, US, December 05, 1903, NIGHT EDITION, Page 2
URL:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...ge+&y=14&x=14&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
3)
1905 US Jewish leader Leon Zolotkoff says Macedonians are a distinct nationality. "The Greeks, Roumanians & Macedonians have established nationalities within the past century" Omaha Daily Bee newspaper, Nebraska US, November 14 1905
URL:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...ty+&y=21&x=10&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=3
I am not sure that it was ideological claim, at least in Serbian case. Idea about connection with ancient Macedonia was widespread and accepted among medieval Serbian people. Serbian translation of Pseudo-Callisthenes Alexander Romance from 14. century is the best example, where translator considered ancient Macedonians as ancestor of Serbs. Also in Serbian traditional folk songs, old Serbian state is considered as Macedonia, you can refer here, https://books.google.rs/books?id=Hj...QAQ#v=onepage&q="српска александрија"&f=false
I suppose that in Bulgarian translation of Alexander Romance, Macedonians are considered as Bulgarians. Correct?
1) National Archives of Australia: Turkey leader Ataturk (refered to as Gazi) & Greek PM Venizelos agree on Macedonia issue
1933 UK diplomatic report Greek PM Venizelos acknowledges existence of 'Slav-Macedonians' and says they are neither Bulgarians nor Serbs
Link to the report:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...eve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=176623&T=P&S=44
2) During the Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia in WW2, the Bitola police superintendent ordered the confiscation of badges that carried the inscription "Independent Macedonia", worn by members of the local Macedonian organization Ilinden.
3) 1929 Australian immigration record: Cyril Karafiloff registers as Macedonian nationality and explains to Australian authorities his part of Macedonia was under Serbian rule.
1933 UK diplomatic report Greek PM Venizelos acknowledges existence of 'Slav-Macedonians' and says they are neither Bulgarians nor Serbs
Link to the report:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...eve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=176623&T=P&S=44
2) During the Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia in WW2, the Bitola police superintendent ordered the confiscation of badges that carried the inscription "Independent Macedonia", worn by members of the local Macedonian organization Ilinden.
3) 1929 Australian immigration record: Cyril Karafiloff registers as Macedonian nationality and explains to Australian authorities his part of Macedonia was under Serbian rule.
Poslednja izmena:
The link with Alexander is used to claim the universality of their rule. For the Ottoman case see for example the chapter "The Ottoman imitatio Alexandri" in Su Fang Ng, Alexander the Great from Britain to Southeast Asia (2019) (printscreen from google). So one might expect something similar from Stephan Dushan (?).
The earliest Bulgarian translation of the Alexandria is from the X-XI c. I don't know much about the Serbian one but at least according to Jagich the three cases where it mentions "Serbian language" („срьбьскии ѥзикъ“) are actually a replacemen of „по словѣньскому ѧзыкоу“ from older translations:
(pages 4-5 in Л. Милетич, Една българска Александрия.., 1936
Which is not unique. Consider the case of the Life of St. Paraskeva/Petka (originally - written by the Bulgarian patriarch Euthimius):
(pages 291-292 in Даница Поповић, Под окриљем светости : култ светих владара и реликвија у средњовековној Србији, 2006 (First published as: Реликвије свете Петке: Gloria Bulgariae - Gloria Serviae, 2003):
********
Пренос моштију свете Петке у Србију имао је непосредног одјека у саставима који су је прослављали. Ако се изузме Слово Григорија Цамблака, у Србији за потребе култа нису сачињене нове творевине, већ су вршене редакције, прераде или допуне постојећих. Те интервенције су, као документ времена, веома занимљива и сложена грађа, која би заслуживала посебан рад. Суштина им је у истицању српске земље и владара, уз молитву светитељки за помоћ и посредовање. Измене и допуне појављују се у неколико преписа Јевтимијевог Житија. Овом приликом наводимо неколико карактеристичних примера.
У рукопису № 56 из 1509. године (Санкт Петербург, РНБ) у заглавље Житија интерполира се податак да су мошти пренете у „преславнејшују земљу србскују“; у седмој глави речи похвале: „... ти јеси Блгаром красота“, замењене су са: „... јазику српскому красота". [75]
На сличан начин се у рукопису № 89 из XVI века (Москва, РГБ), у заглављу, каже да су мошти донете у „славнују земљу србскују"; из завршне молитве избачене су све реторске фигуре у којима се помиње бугарски цар и замењене молитвом да се сачува „благочастиви господин наш деспот Ђурађ“. [76] Те српске прераде Житија, жанровски трансформисане, на посебно занимљив начин испољиле су се доцније у препису сачуваном у Минеју Божидара Вуковића из 1536. године. [77] Интервенције су вршене и у другим саставима. ...
75. Kałuźniacki, Werke des Patriarchen, 59, 74.
76. Ibid., 59, 76; позније прераде Житија патријарха Јевтимија размотрила je К. Иванова, Житието на Петка Търновска, 28-35.
77. Реч je о скраћеној верзији Јевтимијевог Житија. Сама књига била је штампана и намењена новој врсти публике - пре свега путницима и поклоницима, cf. Н. Драгова, Жанрова трансформация на Евтимиевото житие за света Петка Търновска през XVI-XVII век, Търновска книжовна школа 4 (1985) 85-101 (са старијом литературом); cf. S. Novaković, Život sv. Petke od patrijarha bugarskog Jeftimija, Starine JAZU IX (1877) 48-59.
********
There are early (X-XI c.) Bulgarian claims to Achilles and his Myrmidons - see К. Калайдовичъ, Іоаннъ, Ексархъ Болгарскій, 1824. They maybe repeat earlier writings such as those of the V-VI c. chronicler Ioan Malalas and others (see this thread), but as you probably know almost every people in western Europe tried to claim origins from Troy by the XIII c. There were extensive Croatian versions of the Tale of Troy, etc.
Carlin, actually the onus is on you to prove that the materials that you actively post here were of any, great or small, significance for the history of Macedonia until the WWI. In 1996-99 I had similar online exchanges with one Goce Naumoski from Brusseles, who was flloding the forums with exceprts from the "Материјали за историјата на македонскиот народ" or something similar. Including the case of one "Petko" printed in Greek Macedonia (in 1920's?). - Petko claimed that he is Macedonian and denounced the evil "komitadji" Apostol voevoda. I will tell you the same I told Goce back then. - "Okay, you will have this Petko Neznajni in your "Macedonian" history, and I will have Postol voevoda-Enidzhevardarskoto sonce in my history. Fine by me."
I can quote you immediately, say, ten prominent inhabitants of Macedonia who identified as Bulgarians, and what they did in WWI. Can you do the same for, say, ten prominent Slavophones with Macedonian consiousness? I don't think so. You seem to be confusing the history of the latter (and the evolution of a separate Macedonian consiousness later in the XX c.) with the history of Macedonia.
Poslednja izmena:
Vasil, you are missing the point. You are also "assuming" a lot thinking and framing the debate in a way that might work for you, such that:
i) The "onus" is on me to prove something (are we able to analyze in the same fashion and with the same level of scrutiny the formation and evolution of the Bulgarian identity in the 19th century?);
ii) To quote specifically "prominent" inhabitants who identified in any specific manner (why would ordinary people or illiterate villagers not count?).
Could you clarify the statement You seem to be confusing the history of the latter (and the evolution of a separate Macedonian consiousness later in the XX c.) with the history of Macedonia.
I am quite aware and acknowledge the fact that a significant portion of the population of Macedonia identified as Bulgarians well into the 20th century. As a result, you do not have to quote anything because that's not what I am trying to get at. Are you of the opinion that a separate Macedonian consciousness formed "later" in the XX century? If so, when did it form, WW1, WW2? Furthermore, are you of the opinion that a Macedonian consciousness developed in an "artificial" manner, and was imposed by decree or by an individual?
The reality is likely somewhere "in between"; and that is, the sparks of Macedonian consciousness (among lesser or greater individuals) existed in Macedonia at a time you might not agree with. Why would I need to "prove that"? This "fact" is proven by itself, by the mere fact that such testimonies exist. Do you deny that such testimonies do exist and have been passed down to us?
If we are going to scrutinize and analyze these historical testimonies and determine how "significant" they are, we'd need to apply the same level of skepticism and detailed analysis on each and every case.
Ottoman claims were directed towards Alexanders state in political and territorial sense and Ottomans have seen themselves as succesors of this state in terms of power and unity.
Different situation was in Serbian medieval state as Dragutin Kostic noted, Serbs identified themselves in a national sense with ancient Macedonians. This was not the case with Latins, French or Germans.
I know that Bulgarian edition was made for centuries earlier, but I am interested whether Bulgarians identified themselves with ancient Macedonians, like Serbs did.
I have serious reservations about what are you quoting. - Which Serbs identified? - granny Dragana from the village of .. Beli Izvor, or some learned person who read about Alex in some books? In the case of the former - how do you even know granny Dragana identified with or was speaking the bookish language of these stories about Alex?). I am not aware of Bulgarian claims about Alex in the early Alexandria novel. But copies of it have been preserved mainly in Russia, as a part of large chronicles (Эллинский и Римский хронограф) so it hasn't played a great role.
Even my grandmother didn't know to write, so granny Dragana from 14. century was for sure illiterate. This was the claim of some learned Serb and this claim was very popular because there are a lot of transcriptions of Serbian Alexandrida.
Why are you so suspicios? In Bulgarian tradition from 13. century there is also claim about Bulgarian Balkan and Asia Minor origin.
North Macedonia and Bulgarian historical imperialism 
Северна Македонија и бугарскиот историски империјализам
Улф Брунбауер
URL:
https://www.dw.com/mk/северна-македонија-и-бугарскиот-историски-империјализам/a-54265248
https://erinnerung.hypotheses.org/8...41DHfB34pspYMcSb1pbe2Cy3GLKPF2T48fq2vBxhFCAmI
Северна Македонија и бугарскиот историски империјализам Улф Брунбауер
URL:
https://www.dw.com/mk/северна-македонија-и-бугарскиот-историски-империјализам/a-54265248
https://erinnerung.hypotheses.org/8...41DHfB34pspYMcSb1pbe2Cy3GLKPF2T48fq2vBxhFCAmI
Poslednja izmena:
Scott Isle
Elita
- Poruka
- 16.532
Apijan daje jasan identitet tog prostora, od Bile Zore do Rodopa. To su Pajonci koji su etnicki jednaki Panoncima. Siropaeonians. Dakle Srbi, od antike.
+
+
"Macedonian Language" - Речник написан 1538 г. од непознатог аутора а издат 1958 Ciro Giannelli - Andre Vaillant, Институт за славистику при универзитету у Паризу. Садржај речника је прикупљен у селу Богатско (Βογατσικό) околина Костура (Καστοριά).
https://www.academia.edu/1107169/Ciro_Giannelli_Lexicon_of_the_Macedonian_Language_16th_century
1854 - Часопис у британској колонијалној Аустралији, цитирајући амерички часопис, бележи Македонце у османској Турској. 
TRAVELS IN EUROPEAN TURKEY:
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-51908105...8&partId=nla.obj-519150065#page/n329/mode/1up
"The different nationalities of that Babel-like country, Turkey in Europe, inhabited by Sclavonians, Greeks, Albanians, Macedonians, the Romani and Osmanli—their various characteristics, religions, superstitions, together with their singular customs and manners, their ancient and contemporary history are vividly described."
TRAVELS IN EUROPEAN TURKEY:
https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-51908105...8&partId=nla.obj-519150065#page/n329/mode/1up
"The different nationalities of that Babel-like country, Turkey in Europe, inhabited by Sclavonians, Greeks, Albanians, Macedonians, the Romani and Osmanli—their various characteristics, religions, superstitions, together with their singular customs and manners, their ancient and contemporary history are vividly described."
