Sloveni na severozapadu Evrope

jos iz knjige "Across the western Baltic"

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roskildemuseum.dk%2FAdmin%2FPublic%2FDWSDownload.aspx%3FFile%3D%252FFiles%252FFiler%252FVORES%2BVIDEN%252FDet%2Bdigitale%2Bmuseum%252FArtikler%252FJU_Western_Baltic.pdf&ei=Fg3KUMG_K4bOhAe7hoH4Dw&usg=AFQjCNH591ea8R2iP20R9MJiqNuXxiojRQ&sig2=oW1bsDpECQxUYWzp6FFAUA

The speculative presence of a substantial Slavic population in parts of Denmark in the late Viking Age and Early Medieval Period
has been discussed for many years (see Grinder-Hansen 2001and 2002). While the motives and reliability of contemporary
written sources have been questioned, place-name evidence has been much in focus, with place-names of Slavic origin found on
the islands of Lolland, Falster and Møn (Housted 2002). In figures, there are less than 40 distributed in four main clusters: the
western part of Lolland, the southern and north-eastern part of Falster and the easternmost part of Møn. Added to this are a
handful of place-names comprising the Danish word for Wends as a prefix (for instance Vinde-by, Vinde-rup, Vinde-bode), which
are found on the islands of Tåsinge, Ærø, Langeland, Lolland and Sjælland (B. Jørgensen 2001). In Skåne and on Bornholm no place-
names of this character are known (pers. comm. Göran Hallberg and Finn Ole Nielsen). The occurrence of place-names in
one area, and their absence in another, as well as the distribution of their different categories is both interesting and significant.
There is no reason to doubt that settlements on the Danish islands could be established and owned by persons of Slavic origin.
The question is when and how this settlement took place, and whether or not the archaeological evidence can support the
idea of a substantial migration of Slavic groups into Denmark. Looking at the excavated settlements in Denmark from the 9th
to the 13th century, the houses are of local tradition. There are no Slavic-type forts, and no identified “settlement pits” or other
traces of log houses north of the Baltic Sea. In a Late Viking Age context there are examples of a relatively large rectangular type
of pit-house with roof-supporting posts at each gable, posts in the corners and an oven, from a number of excavations in Denmark
and Skåne. This type is larger and more regular than the average Viking Age pit-house. It is often suggested that it is a
sign of Slavic influence, even though the Slavic rectangular or square shaped pit-houses with a hearth or an oven are rare in
Mecklenburg and Vorpommern. Examples dating from the 9th and 10th century are known from Holstein and Niedersachsen,
but generally Slavic pit-houses belong in Central Europe (Donat 1980; Brather 2001). In Denmark pit-houses are known from
the Late Roman Iron Age, and are seen as an adoption of building methods from northwest Germany. From the 2nd to the 5th
century pit-houses are few in number and only found at a very limited number of sites, mostly in southern Jylland and in three
Across the western B 240 altic. Jens Ulriksen cases on Fyn. In Skåne, though, there are examples of pit-houses
that have been dated to the Pre-Roman Iron Age (Tesch 1992, 186 and 204). This is very early compared to Sjælland or other
parts of Denmark, and how they are to be placed into the overall picture of settlement development in southern Scandinavia is
unclear. On Sjælland, pit-houses do not appear until the 6th century with the exception of one or two examples, and generally
the pit-house is a phenomenon of the Vendel Period and Viking Age.
Thus there is no constructional evidence of Slavic settlements north of the Baltic Sea. As a contrast, the Slavic pottery style
is present in settlement sites and towns in many parts of Denmark in the 10th to 12th century, suggesting a massive presence
of Slavs (fi g. 3). However, it is generally accepted that Baltic ware was adapted and produced by the Danes rather than being
the result of large scale migration. Rim shapes and - in particular - decoration north of the Baltic are not as varied as in Mecklenburg
and Pommern, indicating that potters in Denmark copied a style rather than being an integral part of the original manufacturing
tradition. Characteristic Slavic metal objects dating from this period such as ‘Schläfenringe’ and ‘Gürtelhaken’ are
rare in the otherwise plentiful material found with metal detectors in Danish settlement sites. However, knife-sheath mounts
(thin sheets of copper alloy) are frequently found (M. Andersen 1988), and hacksilver deposits from the turn of the millennium
contain bits and pieces of both Scandinavian and Slavic origin

kaze se da na osnovu slovenskih imena mesta, zemunica i keramike, moze da se zakljuci da je postojala slovenska populacija u danskoj. pitanje je kad i u kolikom
broju. interesantno je stalno pokusavanje da se smanji uticaj slovena i da se svi nalazi interpretiraju na takav nacin da se broj i rasprostranjenost slovena u ranom srednjem veku u danskoj sto vise smanji, i da se sto vise stvari prikaze kao kulturni uticaj slovena a ne kao prisustvo slovena.

takodje mislim da je ocigledno da danci pod vendima podrazumevaju slovene...
 
Poslednja izmena:
naselje sastavljeno od 42 duge kuce (long houses) i 350 zemunica (pit houses) sa severnog jutlanda iz kasnog gvozdenog doba. takodje nadjena su jame za spaljivanje pokojnika kao i grobovi sto govori o prisustvu mesane populacije.

lokacija: Bejsebakken, a central site near Aalborg in Northern Jutland

http://www.uppakra.se/backup/docs/uppakra6/14_Nielsen_U6.pdf

Numerous metal detector finds were the main reason why, for a number of years, the Bejsebakken site was considered an important Late Iron Age settlement. Recently, extensive excavations have produced a comprehensive find material, which provides new knowledge of the character and structure of the settlement. The results are presented in this interim report.
A total of 42 longhouses and 350 pit houses were excavated in a 50.000 m2 large area, which constitutes the main part of the settlement. The houses are mainly from the Early and Late Germanic Iron Age. The central part of the settlement is almost completely without structural remains. Clusters of successive pit houses have been established. Weaving weights and spinning whirls demonstrates that the pit houses were used for textile production. Finds from the layers of filling indicate other crafts on the site. Fibulas and other finds show a connection to Norway and Sweden.
The site is interpreted as a small permanent settlement, periodically visited by craftsmen and traders.

In almost all pit houses, the filling contained numerous stones made brittle by fire...Several pit houses have an oblong, oval pit, a few centimetres deep and usually situated
in the northern part of the house.

da li su ovo ostaci kamenih i glinenih peci?
 
ahil ovo je interesantno je povezuje balkan baltik i britanska ostrva na jako lep nacin. kulturne slicnosti izmedju ovih regiona su ocigledne ali tesko objasnjive. slovenski vikinzi su mogli da donesu neke od ovih kultirnih karakteristika u ranom srednjem veku. ali postoji puno nalaza i iz starog veka koji ne mogu da se objasne vikinskim invazijama.

ovo bi moglo da pomogne. necu sad ovde da otvaram raspravu o ovome. planiram da otvorim novu bas o ovome, cim na ovoj temi budem stavio sve sto sam do sad nasao o slovenskim vikinzima.

hvala ti na informaciji u svakom slucaju.
Kontra smer.
 
evo jos slovenskih kuca ovog puta na setlandskim ostrvima. dati su podaci i za zemunice sa kamenim ognjistima u norveskoj.

knjiga: The Biggings, Papa Stour, Shetland: the history and excavation of a royal Norwegian farm

pithousedescription.PNG



island
pithousenorway.PNG

norveska
pithouseiceland.PNG



slika jednog od ugaonih ognjista sa setlanda

http://books.google.ie/books?id=JvN...Vtk_r-Q&dq=pit+houses+with+corner+oven+norway
 
evo ovo cisto da se vidi da su sloveni pravili ovakve kuce u 19. veku. blizu odese, ruska tvrdjava sa 100 zemunica sa peci u cosku, svaka pravljena da primi po 10 vojnika.

http://worldarchaeology.net/about_cwa/index.htm

Highly interesting finds of Turkish fortress sites and a Russian marching fort (four cannon and 100 pit-houses in ten lines) from around 1800 AD have given superb insights into military life in the field at the time of Napoleon. The fort sits on the road between Odessa and Ismaël on the Danube (besieged and taken by Russia in 1790, in fact General Suvorov). Each pit-house (with an oven in the corner) probably held about ten men. Crosses, coins and bottles for alcohol leave no doubt about the origin of the soldiers, in spite of nomad female attire and Turkish pipes. Rectangular earthen walls crowned with timbers or fortification baskets and moats surrounded the camp which was situated in the fork between two smaller rivers.
 
jos zemunica

jako interesantno jer ibn fadlan kaze da su rus vikinzi ziveli u kucama sa pecima u cosku

IBN FADL® AN AND THE R USIYYAH

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/montgo1.pdf

If Ibn Fadl − an does mean that this disembarkation-point is the site of the market on the confluence of the Volga and Kama rivers, the Varangian Rus would have influ- enced the urbanisation of the area. The difference between Ibn Fadl − an’s description of these dwellings and standard Viking houses may corroborate the suggestion that they are temporary stopping-places (see further Smyser, 104), although they have more in common with “authentically Slavic rectangular timber houses with an oven in the corner” (Dolukhanov, 184), indicating a futher feature shared between Varangian and Slav.



rusi su u srednjem veku jos ziveli u ovakvim kucama

russia from early times

http://gendocs.ru/docs/9/8389/conv_1/file1.pdf

When it became bitterly cold, much (maybe all) of the livestock and food stores such as cabbage moved inside. The major structure inside every peasant
hut was the stove, a structure built in one of the corners that occupied much of the room in the hut. It was built of rock and mortar and had three chambers for maximum extraction of heat. Had the Russian stove had a chimney, 80 per cent of the heat would have gone out of the chimney, so there was only a smoke hole in the back of the stove which vented the smoke into the room.
The heating season was about six months of the year, 16 so that for six months of the year the peasants breathed a toxic mixture of carbon monoxide and
over two hundred wood-smoke particles that clogged their throats and lungs.
The product was the infamous Russian smoky hut, one of the major features of Russian civilisation from the time the Slavs moved east into Ukraine in
the sixth century, and then into the Volga–Oka mesopotamia in the eleventh–thirteenth centuries, down until the 1930s. The smoke was so dense that it left
a line around the wall about shoulder-high, where the bottom of the smoke cloud hung. The air was so toxic that it disinfected the hut to the extent that
not even cockroaches could survive. The Russians had a saying: ‘If you want to be warm, you have to suffer the smoke.’

vikinzi u estoniji su ziveli u ovakvim kucama

Pre-Viking Age, and Viking Age in Estonia

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&ved=0CFQQFjAHOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oapen.org%2Fdownload%3Ftype%3Ddocument%26docid%3D423944&ei=nvnMUKHgA9KIhQfl7YGYDA&usg=AFQjCNF3GEmEbEdnWFHk0Rp0mOLL6JOcUg&sig2=maeDVwRcMjba_4mlOY0mkw


The earliest stoves were located in the centre of buildings; later stoves were placed in corners. This fact implies that the keris stove developed from open fireplace (Tõnisson 1981a, 47). The
main purpose of stoves was heating, but the fire was also used for the preparation of food. In front of both keris and vaulted clay stoves, a small depression (lee in Estonian) up to 50 cm wide was
generally made where food could be prepared on hot embers removed from the stove. Besides the stove, there were benches around the walls of the hut on which the peasants sat during the day and slept at night, on mattresses stuffed with hay or straw. Early tables were made of clay and immovable; movable tables made of wood date from the seventeenth century. Some huts had primitive
stools, but usually there were no chairs or other furniture except a trunk (made of wood, leather, and/or woven bark, reeds and other materials) in which the peasants kept their extra and out-of-season clothing. There was a shelf protruding from one of the walls on which cooking utensils were kept. Clay pots were used for storage or mixing.
 
Poslednja izmena:
interesantno

gomila slovenskih hramovskih prstenova nadjenih u vikinskim nalazima u rusiji mesana sa skandinavskim nakitom.


templeringsrussia.jpg


http://www.archeurope.com/_texts/00006a.pdf

evo i ovde lista vikinskog nakita. isti vratni prstenovi i takodje slovenske mindjuse. kaze se da skandinavske zene nisu nosile mindjuse,

http://www.castlemere.org/images/AnS/jewelry/vikingbling.pdf

interesantno

Permian spiral-ring sa istocnog baltika. nadjene su po celoj skandinaviji i u britaniji. poticu iz rusije.

http://www.time-lines.co.uk/sold-viking-antiquities-24477-0.html
 
Poslednja izmena:
ovo je jako iteresantno. kasni "anglo saxon" ili "anglo-skandinavian" zavrsetak kaisa. pogledajte dizajn.

strapend.jpg


http://www.ebay.ie/itm/ANGLO-SAXON-VIKING-PELLET-CROSS-STRAP-END-020290-/350382333124#ht_1811wt_973

ANGLO- SAXON OR ANGLO- SCANDINAVIAN VIKING
'KNOTWORK PELLET-AND-CROSS'
TONGUE-SHAPED STRAP END
Silver-gilt, 10.41 grams, 33.52 mm. 10th-11th century AD. A thick, cast strap end with decorative elements in high relief. The design comprises a cross with central boss, between the arms of which are four similar bosses within semicircles. A raised bar runs across the top beyond which is the thinner bar pierced for attachment. Similar D-shaped strap ends are a Late Saxon development influenced by contemporary Scandinavian fashions; the heavy moulding and geometric design are based on Winchester Style manuscript decoration and its derivatives in the plastic arts. Gilding remains on some of the surface. Reference: Thomas, G. Late Anglo-Saxon and Viking-Age Strap-Ends 750-1100 FRG Datasheet no.32, 2004, no.23-4. Very fine condition. Provenance: from an old continental collection.
 
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Heimskringla/King_Olaf_Trygvason's_Saga/Part_I

In viking saga's we can learn about first rulers of Poland. There is controversy if the Burizleif king of the Vindland (or Vendland) was polish ruler Mieszko I or his son first polish king Boleslav the Brave. Some suggest that Scandinavians were calling both Boleslav the Brave and his father Mieszko with the same name and title Burizleif king of the Vindland. I have studied the KING OLAF TRYGVASON'S SAGA" and thats what i found:

"King Svein made a magnificent feast, to which he invited all the chiefs in his dominions; for he would give the succession-feast,or the heirship-ale, after his father Harald....(..)...The Jomsborg vikings came to the festival with their bravest men, forty ships of them from Vindland, and twenty ships from Skane."

So, from the 60 ships on which the Jomsvikings came to visit Sven (father of Canute the Great) who just become the king of Denmark - 40 were slavic. On that feast someone decided to use the Jomsvikings to his plans. They drunk to much beer and were droven into the intrigue which ended bad for them: "Thereafter for the chiefs of the Jomsborg vikings was filled and drunk the largest horn to be found, and of the strongest drink..(...)..Thereafter Earl Sigvalde emptied a remembrance bowl to his father's honour,and made the solemn vow, that before three winters came to an end he would go to Norway, and either kill Earl Hakon, or chase him out of the country.Thereupon Thorkel the Tall, his brother,made a solemn vow to follow his brother Sigvalde to Norway, and not flinch from the battle so
long as Sigvalde would fight there. Then Bue the Thick vowed to follow them to Norway, and not flinch so long as the other Jomsborg vikings fought. At last Vagn Akason vowed that he would go with them to Norway, and not return until he had slain Thorkel Leira, and gone to bed to his daughter Ingebjorg without her friends' consent...(...)...when the Jomsborg vikings had slept off their drink, they thought they had spoken more than enough." So, the Jomsviking sailed toward Norway in the force of the 60 ships, but the Norwegians were not surprised and met them on the sea with the 150 ships. The earls Hakon and Eirik lay in Halkelsvik, where all their forces were assembled. They had 150 ships,and they had heard that the Jomsborg vikings had come in from sea, and lay at the island Hod; and they, in consequence, rowed out to seek them. When they reached a place called Hjorungavag they met each other,and both sides drew up their ships in line for an attack." During the battle one of the jomsviking's Jarl's found a chance to escape and left the battle which was lost. All together 35 ships escaped while 25 were still fighting. Most of the crews fought to death and the Norwegians captured only 30 wounded but still alive Jomsvikings. The norwegians begined execution: "Vagn and thirty men were taken prisoners, and bound, and brought to land. Then came up Thorkel Leira, and said, "Thou madest
a solemn vow, Vagn, to kill me, but now it seems more likely that I will kill thee." Vagn and his men sat all upon a log of wood together. Thorkel had an axe in his hands, with which he cut at him who sat outmost on the log. Vagn and the other prisoners were bound so that a rope was fastened on their feet, but they had their hands free. One of them said, "I will stick this cloak-pin that I have in my hand into the earth, if it be so that I know anything, after my head is cut off." His head was cut off, but the cloak-pin fell from his hand. There sat also a very handsome man with long hair, who twisted his hair
over his head, put out his neck, and said, "Don't make my hair bloody." A man took the hair in his hands and held it fast. Thorkel hewed with his axe; but the viking twitched his head so strongly that he who was holding his hair fell forwards, and the axe cut off both his hands, and stuck fast in the earth." After doing it the young handsome viking said famous: "Eigi Eru Enn Allir Jomsvikingar daudhir" ("Not Yet Are All the Jomsvikings Dead"). Anyway, The Norwegians were impressed so much that rewarded him and the remaining 11 of the Jomsvikings who were not executed yet with life and let them go back to Jomsborg.


Farther the Saga says about king Sven Forkbeard and his connections with Polish prince: "The Danish king, Svein Tjuguskeg, was married to Gunhild, a daughter of Burizleif, king of the Vinds..(..)...Burizleif, the king of the Vinds, complained to his relation Earl Sigvalde, that the agreement was broken which Sigvalde had made between King Svein and King Burizleif, by which Burizleif was to get in marriage Thyre, Harald's daughter, a sister of King Svein: but that marriage had not proceeded, for Thyre had given positive no to the proposal to marry her to an old and heathen king.
"Now," said King Burizleif to Earl Sigvalde, "I must have the promise fulfilled." And he told Earl Sigvalde to go to Denmark, and bring him Thyre as his queen. Earl Sigvalde loses no time, but goes to King Svein of Denmark, explains to him the case; and brings it so far by his persuasion, that the king delivered his sister Thyre into his hands. With her went some female attendants, and her foster-father, by name Ozur Agason, a man of great power, and some other people. In the agreement between the king and the earl, it was settled that Thyre should have in property the possessions which Queen Gunhild had enjoyed in Vindland, besides other great properties as bride-gifts. Thyre wept sorely, and went very unwillingly. When the earl came to Vindland, Burizleif held his wedding with Queen Thyre, and received her in marriage; bus as long as she was among heathens she would neither eat nor drink with them, and this lasted for seven days...(...)...It happened one night that Queen Thyre and Ozur ran away in the dark, and into the woods, and, to be short in our story, came at last to Denmark. But here Thyre did not dare to remain, knowing that if her brother King Svein heard of her, he would send her back directly to Vindland. She went on, therefore, secretly to Norway, and never stayed her journey until she fell in with King Olaf, by whom she was kindly received."
There in Norway she married Olaf King of Norway. When king Olaf of norway became the husband of the Danish princess who was before married to the ruler of the Poles (prolly Mieszko I) he sailed to Poland to talk with polish ruler about the property of his wife which polish prince recived together with her. Saga also says that he had many friends there: (After his sister Ingebjorg's wedding, the king made ready in all haste to leave the country with his army, which was both greatand made up of fine men.) When he left the land and sailed southwards he had sixty ships of war, with which he sailed past Denmark, and in through the Sound, and on to Vindland. Heappointed a meeting with King Burizleif; and when the kings met, they spoke about the property which King Olaf demanded, and the conference went off peaceably, as a good account was given of the properties which King Olaf thought himself entitled to there. He passed here much of the summer, and found many of his old friends."
When king Olaf was in Poland on the court of Polish ruler, he gets informations that king of Denmark Sven Forkbeard is gatheiring army against him and wants to attack him on his way back to Norway. They decide that Jomsborg vikings will give Olaf 11 ships which will join the norwegian fleet to protect the king. Decision is made by the Earl Sigvalde who seems to be an often guest if not an all time resident on the court of Polish ruler and Jarl of Jomsborg in the same time. Altough it looks like it was a trick and its real intention was to drive king Olaf into Denish trap: "There came first a flying report to Vindland that the Danish king, Svein, had fitted out an army; and it was soon whispered that he intended to attack King Olaf. But Earl Sigvalde says to King Olaf, "It never can be King Svein's intention to venture with the Danish force alone, to give battle to thee with such a powerful army; but if thou hast any suspicion that evil is onfoot, I will follow thee with my force (at that time it was considered a great matter to have Jomsborg vikings with an army), and I will give thee eleven well-manned ships." The king accepted this offer; and as the light breeze of wind that came was favourable, he ordered the ships to get under weigh, and the war-horns to sound the departure. The sails were hoisted and all the small vessels, sailing fastest, got out to sea before the others. The earl, who sailed nearest to the
king's ship, calledto those on board to tell the king to sail in his keel-track:"For I know where the water is deepest between the islands and in the sounds, and these large ships require the deepest." Then the earl sailed first with his eleven ships, and the king followed with his large ships, also eleven in number; but the whole of the rest of the fleet sailed out to sea. Now when Earl Sigvalde came sailing close under the island Svold, a skiff rowed out to inform the earl that the Danish king's army was lying in the harbour before them. Then the earl ordered the sails of his vessels to be struck, and they rowed in under the island. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_I_of_Norway
 
ovo je interesantno u vezi uloge Jomsvikinga u smrti kralja olafa trigvessona. neki kazu da su joms vikinzi pobegli sa bojista i ostavili kralja da bude ubijen. neki drugi kazu da je sve bilo organizovano od strane poljskog kralja koji je zajedno sa dancima zeleo da se otarasi olafa.


Olaf Trygvesson - you're forgetting that the Jomsvikings betrayed him and deserted his fleet after leading him into the trap in which were hidden the ships of the combined Norweggian - Swedish - Danish alliance. I don't think we know whether the Jomsvikings fought for Svein Forkbeard or not. Olaf had eleven ships compared to anywhere from seventy to two hundred on the other side. (Do note that three of Olaf's ships were the three biggest in Scandanavia.) The Danes and Swedes showed themselves to be cowards, but the Norwegians under Earl Erik eventually overwhelmed them.

Did they betray him? In my opinion it was part of the plan. Jomsvikings were subjects of Polish king (Jomsvikingasaga). Polish king sent their leader jarl Sigvalde to Denmark, to Sven Forkbeard to bring his sister Thyre as wife (Olaf' Tryggvason Saga). Against her will Thyre was brought to Poland and married Burizleif king of Vendland (Boleslav the Brave king of Poland). She didnt like her husband and escaped to Olaf of Norway and married him. Olaf came to Poland and was a guest of Polish ruler but when leaving, he was suppoosed to be escorted by Jomsvikings, who drove him into Denish-Swedish trap. Poland and Denmark were allies (wife of Sven was Polish, sister of Sven was supposed to be wife of Boleslav). Olaf was an enemy of Danes and he also offended Polish ruler when married Thyre. From the begining of this story jarl of Jomsborg was in the center of events. He was an envoy of Polish king to Denmark and negotiated conditions of treaty between Poles and Danes (he took Polish princess to Denmark and brought Denish princess to Poland). If you look closer into Sagas it is obvious that killing king Olaf was a plot.


http://www.jomsborg.pl/index_en.html


sto se tice vikinskih saga koje govore o ulozi sloven u jomsburgu i njihove verodostojnosti:

The trouble is, you cannot look this close into sagas when looking for historical facts. They are simply not reliable enough, certainly not in the details.
- They were mostly written down in the twelfth century, twohundred years after events took place.
- They were written in Iceland, so by another people, who might have had another agenda on the subject.
- And they were written by authors, not scribes, so they are not even precise representation of oral tradition, but they are a carefully composed construct made as much for purposes of entertainment as for preserving history.


Fortunatelly there are also many chronicles that confirm some stories from saga's. I know well that not everything in saga's is truth and that many things are terribly mixed. For example 2 different Polish rulers, father and son are described as one Burizleif, who would have to rule from half of 10th century to begining of 11th. Jomsvikingasaga says that Polish army went for war under command of Burizleif together with German emperor against king Harald of Denamark. And next 30 years later the same Burizleif was allied with Sven Forkbeard. But you can take one of German chronicles and check the facts. Thiethmar was writting a lot about Scandinavians and Poles and he describes in his chronicle that Polish king who fought with his wariors in the army of German emperor Otto I was Mieszko I. In other chronicles you can find that Mieszko's daughter married Sven Forkbeard. Next you can find info in other chronicle which say that king Boleslav of Poland aided his brother in law Canute of
Denmark with few hundrieds wariors when Canute was preparing the expedition to England. So while many of saga's are pure fair tales, many facts described by them when compared with medieval chronicles can be confirmed as truth or false.

BTW - for more info about Thietmar check for example Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thietmar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thietmar

This guy really hatred Poles but thanks to him we know a lot both about early medieval Poland and Scandinavia. He was a bishop but he took part in wars against Northmen and Poles.
sledece dve knjige govore o sukobima wenda i poljaka.


http://books.google.ie/books?id=CV-1H24C_MwC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=Hla%C3%B0ir+slav&source=bl&ots=ea1uelpeI2&sig=WDIMt5Q6-5v7XjtxVFzqmi9msa0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BTDOUIeKH8TRhAfQuIDQAg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Hla%C3%B0ir%20slav&f=false

Widukind of Corvey takodje govori o odnosu skandinavaca i slovena ali i o odnosu Wenda i poljaka i njihovim sukobima

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widukind_of_Corvey

http://books.google.ie/books?id=5AS0A3pSvo4C&pg=PA195&dq=Widukind+of+Corvey+wichmann&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KwvPULS-L5CHhQew3IGwBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Widukind%20of%20Corvey%20wichmann&f=false

jos malo o odnosu vikinga i poljaka

Poland was very close to Vikings but it was strong tribal kingdom which was invading all its neighbours. Boleslav the Brave who was known in Saga's as Burizleif had strong army, during his reign invaded and defeated the Kiev Rus, Bohemia and German Empire (signed even peace treaty at Bautzen with Emperor who recognised all his teritorial conquests in Germany). New summer for Boleslav was nothing else but new agressive war. Vikings were coming to Poland only as merchants and traders. Those in Jomsborg who settled there under jarl Palna Toki from Denmark did it with permission of king and every their new jarl had to be accepted by king.


ovaj boleslav je isti onaj poljski kralj cije su trupe ucestvovale u invaziji engleske od strane kanuta velikog.
 
Poslednja izmena:
evo jos malo o ulozi slovena u vikinskoj invaziji na britaniju

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Canute_the_Great


He was the son of king Sweyn Forkbeard of Denmark. Canute's mother was Gunhild (formerly Swiatoslawa, daughter of Mieszko I of Poland). Canute was reared by a mother whose own mother Dubrawka had been abducted from a religious house and married to the first Duke of Poland, Mieszko, who later adopted Christianity. This, along with his father's stout beliefs, was probably the foundation of Canute's pragmatic relation to religion which would later greatly influence both Denmark and Britain. Conrad II, Holy Roman Emperor was friendly with Canute and had his young son Henry married to Canute's daughter Cunigunde (Gunhilda). The emperor gave Canute the Mark of Schleswig and Pomerania to govern. The latter was probably the fief of Canute, since Boleslaus I of Poland sent his army to help Canute conquer England.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_migration_to_the_United_Kingdom

According to the Medieval chroniclers Thietmar of Merseburg and Adam of Bremen, King Canute the Great - who ruled both Denmark and England - was the son of a Polish princess, a daughter of Mieszko I of Poland and sister of Boleslaw I of Poland. An inscription in "Liber vitae of the New Minster and Hyde Abbey Winchester" mentions King Canute as having a sister named "Santslaue" ("Santslaue soror CNVTI regis nostri"), which without doubt is a Slavic name, and J. Steenstrup suggests this was a rendering of Świętosława. References in medieval chronicles to the involvement of Polish troops in invasions of England are likely related to Canute's Polish ancestry, constituting the earliest evidence of Poles arriving in the country.

http://www.britannia.com/history/articles/normvik.html

in 1069 William was again dealing with rebellion in Northumberland, this time lead by the deposed Earl, Morkar, and his brother the ex-Earl of Mercia, Edwin. This time the uprising was supported by the Danish king, Swegn Estrithsson. Fighting alongside them were the Earls Waltheof and Gospatrick, both of whom were of Anglo-Norse extraction. Edgar the Aetheling was also there with support from the many English who were refugees in lowland Scotland. Just how he felt about Swegn's involvement is not recorded. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle states that the Danish fleet consisted of two hundred and forty ships, and that the crews were, not only Danish, but Polish, German, Wendish and Lithuanian. Controlling the fleet were Swegn's sons, and his brother Osbjorn. The allies took York and slaughtered the Norman garrison when they foolishly made an armed sally. Earl Waltheof's exploit of slaying a hundred Frenchmen with his long-axe as they tried to escape through a gate, ending up in heroic verse. William was not amused and moved north, again laying waste as he went. The Danes took to their ships and commenced raiding the East Coast, seeking assistance from their relations in the Danelaw. The fleet settled down to wintered over in the Humber where William couldn't get at them.


ono sto je meni licno jako interesantno u vezi kanuta je da je on, sa svojim slovenskim saveznicima stekao potpunu kontrolu nad vikinskim kolonijama u irskoj ukljucujuci i dablin.

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Canute_the_Great.html

The kingship of England of course lent the Danes an important link to the maritime zone between Great Britain and Ireland, where Cnut like his father before him had a strong interest.[8] In light of the struggles of the Danes for preeminence within Scandinavia, Cnut's rule was definitely felt by the sea-kingdoms of the Viking settlers among the Celtic nations; known as the Gall Gaidel. These were the Kingdom of the Isles (probably under direct overlordship through one of his lieutenants[9]) in the Sea of the Hebrides, and the Kingdom of Dublin (probably on the terms of vassal and suzerain),[10] in the Irish Sea. The chief goal here was to control the western seaways to and from Scandinavia, and to check the might of the Earls of Orkney.[11] At the height of his power, Cnut held certain Gaelic kingdoms[12] and the Ui Imhair sea-kingdom of Echmarcach mac Ragnaill[13] as client territories, too.
evo ovde jos linkova (mali deo) o vezi slovena i danaca u vreme vikinskih invazija na britaniju.

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/415852
http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/415481
http://www.polishforums.com/archives/2009/history-poland-34/polish-vikings-relations-20259/
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MECKLENBURG.htm
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?149744-western-slavs-suggestions
http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/readinghall/GalleryofHistory/CANUTE_THE_GREAT/1.html
 
Poslednja izmena:
harald klak kralj jutlanda.

obodriti i saxonci, po komandi karla velikog i kasnije karlovog sina luja ratuju protiv haraldovih danskih protivnika od 815 do 823 i pomazu haraldu da dodje na vlast. harald kasnije postaje kralj jutlanda i obavezuje se da ce stititi franacke teritorije od napada "vikinga", odnosno da ce sa svojim brodovima uspostaviti franacku mornaricu. kao poklon, dobio je od franaka teritorije zapadno od oldenburga.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Klak

harald je bio otac Thyre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyra

thyra je majka haralda plavozubog (Harald Bluetooth)

harald se zeni obodritskom princezom koja se zvala Tova, Tofa ili Thora. ona je podigla runski kamen, Sønder Vissing Runestone, posvecen svojoj majci. da li neko hoce da proba da prevede?

tufa ' lRt ' kaurua ' kubl mistiuis ' tutiR ' uft ' muþur sina ' kuna harats ' hins ' kuþa ' kurms sunaR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tove_of_the_Obotrites

tufa je bila cerka obodritskog vladara Mstivoja

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mstivoj

vojnici harolda plavozubog, sa kojima je osvojio dansku dolaze iz slovenskih zemalja juznog baltika. haroldovi naslednici takodje uzimaju vojsku sa juga i zene se slovenskim princezama...

izgleda da ova danska dinastija ima mnogo vise veze sa slovenima nego sto sam cak i ja ranije mislio...:)
 
Poslednja izmena:
inace oldenburg se pre toga zvao stargard i kao i bremen je bio wendski (slovenski) grad.

citat iz knjige jednog nemackog svestenika o Wendima poslednji put je stampana 1599...
„Johann Petersesns Chronica oder Zeitbuch der Lande zu Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarschen und Wagrien”
Napomena: znak / oznacava zavrsetak reda i početak novog reda u knjizi!

„Chronica oder Zeitbuch/der Lande zu Holstein/Stormarn/Dithmarschen vnd Wagern/Wer dieselben Lender regirt/ Was sich vor Christi Geburt/biß in das D.XXXI Jahr darinno zugetragen.Item/von ihrem Glauben/Sitten/Gewonheiten/Krigen vnd veränderungen der Regimente.

Durch Herrn Johann Petersen.

In Jahre 1599 Gedruckt in Kays.Freyen Reichs Stadt Lübeck bey Laurentz Albrecht/ Bürger vnd Buchhendler daselbst

Strana 52

...”Wendeni(S(o)rbi) u Wagerlandu su snazni ljudi/i potpuno su ratnici spremni/iskreni/ gostoljubivi/kod Stranaca i putnika/posebno su voljeni kod stranaca/kojim su veliku dobrotu(cast) pokazivali/Stranca ne primiti u kucu (original„behausete”-valjda ukuciti)/druge izdati/mogli ste im kucu i staniste u pepeo zapaliti(pretvoriti)/Svojim naslednim(starim) roditeljima pokazivase najvecu cast(postovanje)/dusom i telom.„


Oldenburg poznat je i još dan danas kao Stargart a Danci su ga zvali Bremesiam (ljuto su ratovali sa njima) inače Wagria ili Wagriari su sebe nazivali Bremenari (tezaci) osnivaci su grada Bremena odnosno Bremenhafena...Bremenske luke,koja iako nešto veca od luke i danas je sastavna država Nemacke.Tačno napisano...Sastavna država! A gore navedeni Lübeck ili Ljubica je grad i to sa svim epitetima države,koja je sastavna država Nemacke.Taj su grad isto S(o)rbi osnovali...trgovci,moreplovci(čitaj-gusari)

Prvi evangelisticki svestenik(da je bio katolicki...bilo bi drugacije napisano i ne na nemackom,već latinskom)u Oldenburgu,sin kovaca iz Hoisdorfa inače rođen u Trittau...(tripolje)1531 je bio visi svestenik i umro 1552.Original je pisan dijalektom staronemackog i koji nikad nije stampan,ali je svestenik Dominicus Dräuer iz grada Goslar (Guslarevo) 1557 godine preveo na tada knjizevni nemacki i stampao...pred vama je poslednji izstampani prevod iz knjige...
 
Polabian Slavs appeared to be the westernmost Slavic tribes who went to Europe from Common Slavic motherland in European Russia. Polabians settled on lands along the river Elbe (Laba in Slavic) in the end of the 1st millennium AD, having Germans as their neighbours. They could not manage to create their own state and had only tribal alliances, who fought together against Germanic aggression. That struggle went on more or less successfully until the 12th century, when the German Empire at last conquered Polabian lands and settled in their towns. Nowadays not many people know that such German cities as Bremen and Brandenburg were founded by Polabian Slavs and were called Bremin and Branibor in the 11th century.
The only branch of Polabians who managed to repel the Germans were Lusatians or Sorbs, existing even now and speaking two Sorbian languages related to Polabian. Other Polabian tribes were assimilated, and their language is now completely extinct. The only sources for it are some little phrases recorded in the 17th and 18th centuries, and also placenames and some borrowings in German dialects which represent Slavic substratum.

Polabian was obviously similar to the older stages of Polish and Sorbian languages. But phonetics also shows some similarity to Baltic and Germanic languages, which makes us suppose that Polabian was quite archaic. E.g., Common Slavic *-ra- turned into -ra- / -ro- in all modern Slavic tongues, but in Baltic and Polabian it is -ar-. From the other side, Polabian has gone far in its morphological development, losing some noun and verbal endings, like the 3rd person singular verb -t. The infinitive was ending in -t which was not changing into -c' or -s' like in Polish, Sorbian and Czech.

Germanic influence was expressed not only in vocabulary, which contained about a half of German words, but also in phonetics, for some new vowels emerged in the language, similar to Germanic ü and ä.

polabski sloveni su osnovali bremen i brandeburg koji su se nekad zvali bremen i branibor. ovde je bila granica sa francima koja je bila veoma fluidna. jako interesantan je jezik za koji se kaze da je arhaican i ima mnogo mesanih karakteristika sa germanskim i baltickim jezicima. interesantno je da se ovde kaze da su polabljani dosli iz rusije sa ostalim slovenime.

najnoviji arheoloski nalazi otvaraju mogucnost da je bilo vise originalnih slovenskih kulturnih centara i da je polabska oblast jedan od originalnih slovenskih centara i da su polabljani oduvek bili bas tu. to bi znacilo da su sloveni ustvari genetska grupa (rasa, rasi, rusi...) koja je imala vise paralelnih kultura. sta to znaci po pitanju kontakata slovena i skandinavaca i slovenskog uticaja na skandinavce? to znaci da je kontakt postojao verovatno i u bronzanom i gvozdenom dobu, mnogo pre "seobe naroda", jer se polabski sloveni nisu niodakle doselili. doselili su se neki drugi sloveni, ruski. dosli u goste. to takodje otvara mogucnost da su i na balkanu pre 7 veka postojali balkanski sloveni kojima su u goste dosli balticki sloveni...

Both Balts and Slavs were known for building wooden forts or earthworks at unstable times or as means of defence against nomadic steppe tribes. 20-30 years ago it was assumed that Slavs originated from Zarubintsy-Kiev cultures (the so called Godlowski hypothesis). However, in the past 10 year new archeological evidence concerning the Przeworsk and Zarunbintsy cultures instigated a new debate. There is some evidence which might suggest origins in the Pommeranian culture. Late Przeworsk settlements survive as far as VII century AD in Grosspoles. On the same area the lechitic Sukow-Szeligi culture forms in late V early VI century, expanding into Vorpommern. The material culture of late Przeworsk and Sukow-Szeligi is very similar and many modern scholars suggest some form of continuity. Also other Slavic cultures like Feldberg and Tornow, closely resemble cultures from Poland in antiquity. There are striking differences between these cultures and the larges Slavic culture of Prague-Korchak. At the same time, Ukrainian and Russian scholars (Siedow, Tretiakow, Baran, Pobol, Oblomski, Terpilovski and many others) established in the past 20 years that Kiev culture descends directly from Zarubintsy, while Zarubintsy from the Pommeranian. This is also supported by some Lithuanian scholars (like Petrauskas and Gimbutas).

Now... it might be possible that Slavic-Scandinavian contacts reach as far as antiquity and arrival of Goths, Vandals, Gepids in Pomerania, and the Chernyakov culture.
 
jako interesantno

u grobovima sa baltika koji se pripisuju ugro fincima ili baltima blizu petrograda koji se datiraju u period 1 - 3 veka nove ere, nadjeno je mnostvo slovenskih "temple rings" (kako sam ih ja pogresno preveo hramovnih prstenova) a ustvari prestenova koji su se nosili na slepocnicama (slepoocnica - temple) ili ti ovi prstenovi su bili deo zenskog nakita za glavu i kosu.

da li ovo pomera prisustvo slovena na baltiku mnogo pre "velikih migracija" iz 6. veka? da li su slovenske zene ukopane sa ovim prstenovima? u istim grobovime nadjeno je puno prstenova nosenih na prstima koji ne postoje medju skandinavskim nalazima.

http://www.leidykla.eu/fileadmin/Archeologia/Archeologia_12/99-121.pdf


Temple rings (9 items) are made from round or flattened blanks and have needle-like terminals (Figs. 9:10; 10:5, 7; 11:7, 8, 9, 10; 13:7; №№ 08-11, 13, 32, 41, 57, 60, 09-21, 62, 65); one is coiled 1.5 times and fixed with a shackle.

Summarizing the available information, it seems possible to propose the general dating of the cemetery under consideration to phases B2 – B2/C1 (last third of the 1st – the turn between the 2
nd and 3rd century AD according to М. B. Shchukin). On the basis of the dates of the grave offerings it is difficult to draw definite conclusions as to the chronological sequence of the enclosures.

Temple rings’ (visochnye kol’tsa) su najkarakteristicniji delovi slovenske zenske odece...

‘Temple rings’ (visochnye kol’tsa) are the most characteristic part of Slavic2 medieval dress to survive in burials, and are so-called because they are located on the skull, near the temples of the deceased woman or girl (Fig. 1). Most were made of base metals - copper alloys or iron, though silver and even gold were occasionally used.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/trmain/tr1main.html


ovo je takodje interesantno:

posebna vrsta Temple rings’ (visochnye kol’tsa) koja se ucvrscuje za glavu pomocu metalnog obruca. zove se Venet...


The Venets
A venets was formed when the ribbon of the nachilnik/chola was replaced with a wide hoop, or a narrow band, of hard material such as bast, leather, metal, etc., perhaps covered with golden fabric, that was secured at the back of the head. In the 11th-12th centuries, the venets began to be decorated on the upper (front) edge by various forms of battlements - pointed teremkami and square gorodkami. The raised front of the venets was called the ochelom. These were the headdresses of rich maidens. (Stamerov) and (Kireyeva) and (Pushkareva97)
There are discernable three main variants of venets: 1. flexible metal (silver, more rarely bronze); 2. nalobnyj ("on brow") venets with "povyazka" (venets-band) of brocade and sometimes wool or linen fabric, embroidered and richly ornamented (same as chola/nachil'nika above?); 3. venets from metal plates, strung on threads or cords. (Pushkareva89)

The venets was distinctly decorated: often from the venets at temple were braided cords which were passed then through the temple rings; in another variant, the venets supported hair, lying in loops, let down in front of ears from temple (in this case hair seems to supported temple ornaments). Temple rings were typically attached to the venets above the ears. Tiny bells or other metallic hangings were often fastened along the lower edge of the front of the headband. (Stamerov) and (Kireyeva) and (Pushkareva97 and 89)

The nalobnyj maiden venets, made of ribbon, was frequently ornamented with wool fringe (evidently to compliment the wool skirt-ponevoj), as confirmed in a woman's burial from a 13th cent. kurgan of Vyatiche. (Pushkareva89)

Around the head, whether the hair was plaited or loose was a prevyazka, a silk ribbon, and for the rich, of gold threads. Decorated on the forehead with embroidery, sometimes with pearls, it was also called a chelom or chelkoj. If the ornament went around the whole circle it was called a venok or venets. A venets with teeth along the upper edge, gorodki, was called a koruna. (Rabinovich, 13-17th)

http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KWChead.html
 
Poslednja izmena:
na severu evrope su u ranom srednjem veku postojale dve razlicite slovenske kulture: Prague-Korchak koja je gradila zemunice sa drvenim okvirom i zidovima od cerpica i Sukow-Dziedzice koja je pravila brvnare na povrsini zemlje od ukrstenih slaganih trupaca.


The Slavs in the beginning of the Middle ages settled in the extended territories of Central and Eastern Europe from the Elbe in the west up to the Don in the east and from the coast of the Baltic sea in the north up to Peloponnesus in the south and were differentiated in several dialect-tribal formations.

One of those large formations was Prague-Korchak culture formed on the basis of late Przeworsk antiquities (Southern Poland, Western Ukraine and north-eastern Slovakia). Its main markers are hand-made pottery, square semi-subterranean dwellings with heating devices in a corner and cremation burial rite. From the tribes of this group only the Dulebs are known, who appeared in the 8th - 12th centuries divided and scattered in different pans of its former territory. The S-shaped hair-rings are their ethnographical feature.

Another dialect-tribal formation of the Slavs is represented by Sukow-Dziedzice culture, which have been formed also on the basis of late Przeworsk culture in Central Poland. Its characteristic elements are distinctive hand-made pottery, ground timber buildings and surface cremation burials. In the 7th century a part of Sukow-Dziedzice area was captured by the Slavs of another group - the bearers of Feldberg ceramics. On the territory of Sukow-Dziedzice culture the tribal groups of the Obodrits, the Velets, the Pomoryans and the Polyans have been formed. For all of them the S-shaped hollow hair-rings were common.

ja sam se do sad fokusirao na kuce Praskog tipa (zemunice) jer nisam znao za ovaj drugi tip slovenskih kuca. evo ovde primer:

dom1.jpg


zasto je ovaj drugi tip slovenskih kuca vazan? zato sto su ga dvesta godina posle slovena poceli da kopiraju skandinavci i ovaj tip kuce je postao poznat kao skandinavska brvnara.
kuce ovog tipa poticu iz pomeranije iz 6 i 7 veka iz kulture Sukow-Dziedzice. ti isti balticki sloveni su pravili drvena utvrdjenja, gradove, po severnoj nemackoj. odatle su se ove drvene gradjevine prvo prosirile na istok prema rusiji i nalaze se u kujevskoj rusiji od osmog veka. jedno od baltickih slovenskih plemena se zvalo vagri. oni su bili poznati po tome sto su znali "normanski stroj". da li su oni doneli ove brvnare u rusiju i da li su oni originalni varangi koji su osnovalo gardariki, zemlju gradova kako su kijevsku rusiju zvali svedjani?


..Wagrieri, to je starogermanski naziv za Obodrite...drugi su preuzeli taj naziv od Germana pa i Rusi...Waigri ili Waari ili Varjagi-Varjazi...Srejovic i Pesic su već radili na njima.To su oni koji su Rusima pomogli da pobede Wikinge „jer znadose normanski stroj”(znali su kako se bori protiv Normana) i nikad nije vise,stupila Wikinska noga na to tlo...OPREZ...postoji podmetacina da su to Germani!!!To je najzapadnije slavensko pleme na dodiru od Hamburga do iza danasnje danske teritorije...Srediste je bilo Stargard,danasnji Oldenburg.

evo ovde o pojavi i distribuciji slovenskih brvnara u skandinaviji: pojavile su se po prvi put u skandinaviji u 11. veku u mestu koje se zove sigtuna i odatle su se prosirile na celu svedsku norvesku i dansku a i u vikinske teritorije. ista tehnika je ranije koriscena za fortifikacije u danevirke ali nije korisceno u pravljenju kuca. tvrdi se da su sloveni bili vazan faktor u prenosu ove tradicije na svedjane i ostale skandinavce. kaze se takodje da je verovatan razlog zasto su skandinavci poceli da prave brvnare citavih 200 godina posle kijevskih slovena sa kojima su stalno bili u kontaktu taj sto je skandinavska duga kuca imala kulturni i religijski karakter pa skandinavci nisu hteli da zive u drukcijim kucama. na kraju se kaze da je dolazak hriscanstva izbrisao mnoge kulturne razlike izmedju skandinavaca i slovena, pa je to olaksalo prihvatanje ovih kuca od strane skandinavaca.

ja moram da dodam ovo: ovakva kulturna transformacija je mogla da se desi samo ako su na terenu bili prisutni sloveni ili kao vojnici ili kao majstori ili kao naseljenici. takodje interesantno je da je ova tehnika gradnje koriscena u danevirke. po zvanicnoj istorijskoj dogmi, danevirke je poceo da gradi dandski kralj Gudfred u 808. godini da bi se zastitio od invazija franaka. ja sam ovde vec pisao da je 815 karlo veliki poslao vojsku obodrita u jutland da dovede na vlast haralda klaka. i to se onda sve lepo slaze. :( pogresno. najnovija arheoloska istrazivanja su pokazala da je danevirke pocet 737 godine, mnogo pre kralja Gudfreda i da je pravljen sve do 968... mnogo posle dolaska na vlast Haralda Klaka. takodje ispostavilo se da je cela fortifikacija okrenuta naopako, sto znaci da je sanac na danskoj strani a zid na obodritskoj, sto znaci da ko god je pravio fortifikaciju nije branio dansku od obodrita vec obodrite od danaca. pa se zato sad tvrdi da danevirke uopste nije fortifikacija, vec transportni kanal...i kad se sve ovo poveze da je u gradnji fortifikacija koriscena tehnika koja je u to vreme bila uobicajena na obodritskoj teritoriji ali nije postojala medju dancima onda je jasno da je danevirke slovenska fortifikacija, ili u najgorem slucaju franacka fortifikacija koju su za franke pravili sloveni.

The Swedish log-house or lafting tradition started in Sigtuna in the first half of the 11th century and then spread rapidly in central and north Sweden. The technique were used in part of Danevirke and in a well construction or two during the Viking age in Scandinavia but was not part of the house building tradition until Sigtuna (and Oslo and Tromsö, starting at the same time).
From ca 700 e. Kr. houses and forts were lafted on the Baltic east-coast in today’s Poland, the Baltic’s and Russia and bit later in Ladoga and Novgorod. Wladyslaw Duczko, archaeologist in Uppsala believes that the west-Slavs are an important transmitter for the Scandinavian tradition.

rad o brvnarama

http://www.karinrosberg.se/jointtimber.pdf

podebljani deo je jako vazan. ove drvene kuce u rusiji su originalno imale ognjiste u centru kuce a kasnije su pocele da dobijaju pec u cosku. kasnije su pravljene i sa jednim i sa drugim tipom grejanja. to pokazuje stapanje Sukow-Dziedzice kulture sa praskom...

najstariji primerci ovih kuca u skandinavskom svetu se javljaju u dablinu...dakle ovaj ruski uticaj se brzo prosirio na irsku.

Hearths are centrally placed in the houses of western Europe, like in the traditional Scandinavian long houses. In the Russian towns, the older houses have a central hearth, but in
course of time there are more and more corner hearths, which eventually dominate. This has no connection with the choice of building technique, as has sometimes been said. In the
Scandinavian towns, there are both central and corner hearths, and they are respectively used for different purposes: the corner hearth is for work—cooking or craft—and the central hearth is
for social life and entertainment. This is particularly evident in Sigtuna.

Why did the Scandinavians adopt joint timber building so late?

As I said before, joint timber building has very good heat qualities, which is needed in the Scandinavian climate. Accordingly, one would expect the Scandinavians to be quick to
adopt a solid building technique which would also save much work with wood cutting for heating. And they did so at last, and the heat qualities were certainly an essential reason for
joint timber building dominating in Scandinavia for about 900 years. But they did not adopt it until such a long time had passed as 200 years. Why?
I suggest the reason for the delay was cultural. The Scandinavians readily adopted foreign dress fashion and consumer goods, but not so readily foreign housing. They probably
had much of their identity in the houses, especially in their dwellings. The dwelling house shows who is the owner, and for the Vikings an old family was important. So a traditional
house could be associated with an old and impressing family. In addition, the dwelling house had a religious dimension and had often sacrifices under the posts. Such things made the
housing more conservative than other cultural features. There are theories, expressed by Rapoport, about socio-cultural factors having a considerable impact on house form, and about house form having a considerable degree of constancy due to culturally linked aspects. These theories point in the same direction as my suggestion. Towards the end of the 10th century, the cultural difference between the Scandinavian and Slavic peoples decreased. They both—or at least parts of them—converted to Christianity, they made political pacts, and the royal families married into each other. All this probably made
the Scandinavians more ready to adopt the building tradition from the east.

danevirke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danevirke

Recent investigations suggest that Danevirke was not only and not primarily built for military purposes. The archeologist Henning Hellmuth Andersen found that in an early stage the main "wall" consisted of a ditch between two low embankments. The historian argued that the Kograben (Danish: Kovirke) south of the main wall consists of an embankment accompanied by a ditch on its northern side, which would have been counterproductive for a Danish fortification.
 
Poslednja izmena:
sutra je velja noc. granica izmedju ovog sveta i onog sveta je najtanja i duhovi dolaze da nas posete. i bas se to meni danas desilo. juce dok sam pisao o danevirke naleteo sam na ovo: danevirke ima neverovatne slicnosti sa ofinim sancem koji je napravljen u isto vreme na granici izmedju anglosaksonskog kraljevstva murcije i velskog kraljevstva Powys. napravili su ga "angli" da se zastite od velsana. nekako u isto vreme sam na jednoj diskusiji naleteo na pomen slovenskih naselja u friziji iz cetvrtog i petog veka i neko je pomenuo knjigu "Origin of the Anglo-Saxon race : a study of the settlement of England and the tribal origin of the Old English people" gde je nasao ovaj podatak o frizijskim slovenima oko utrehta. onda je neko na GG diskusiji pomenuo vezu slovena i gota i ja sam se setio da se u ranim tekstovima goti stalno povezuju sa slovenima odnosno vendima.
danas sam konacno nasao ceo text porekla anglo saksonaca. u njoj sam nasao izmedju mnogih drugih stvari nasao ovo:

...The settlers who became the ancestors of the Old English race were people of many tribes, all included
within the later designation Anglo-Saxon. They were not exclusively Teutonic, for among them was a small
minority of people of various Wendish tribes, the evidence of whose immigration will appear in subsequent pages.
In regard to speech, there must have been many dialects at first, and we can trace, more or less, the use in England
of three classes of them viz., the old Germanic, whether Old Frisian or Old Saxon ; the Old Norrena, now repre-
sented by the Icelandic ; and the Old Slavic speech of the Wends the Wendish, of course, only to a very limited extent....

doseljenici koji su postali preci engleske rase, koji su kasnije nazvani anglo saksonci, su bili ljudi mnogih plemena koja su bila mesavina tevtonaca (saksonaca, angla, juta (gota, danaca, norvezana, svedjana, balta)) i wenda (vandala slovena). zato je mnogo bolje govoriti o baltickoj rasi i baltickoj invaziji britanije.

pisac knjige poistovecuje slovene, vende i vandale i tvrdi da su to isti ljudi. on u engleskoj nalazi gomilu mesta sa slovenskim imenima iz vremena anglosaksonske invazije. gomilu slovenskih obicaja koji su preziveli do danasnjih dana. on takodje tvrdi da je balticka kultura uvek bila tevtonsko slovenska i da su sloveni bili stanovnici juznog baltika od najranijih vremena, a sigurno pre anglo saksonske invazije na englesku. takodje se tvrdi da je kasnija vikinska invazija na britaniju samo nastavak one originalne balticke invazije.

u knjizi se rec wend pominje 389 puta. rec slav 189 puta a rec sorbs 3 puta.

u knjizi se, za ljibitelje gota. govori o prastarom savezu gota i vandala (slovena, wenda), dva naroda koja su prvo bila u ratu, pa su onda, posto su sklopila mir, postala stalni saveznici.

knjiga objasnjava i mnoge neobjasnjive "keltske" karakteristike britanske kulture koje imaju puno slicnosti sa slovenskom kulturom. izgleda da su ove kulturne karakteristike dosle u irsku i englesku sa baltickim invazionim flotama koje su dosle sa severa prvo donoseci "tuatha de danaan", pa onda "anglo saksonce" pa onda "vikinge". svi ovi severnjaci su bili delom sloveni i oni su izgleda u irsku doneli slovensku kulturu a ne kako sam ja ranije mislio da smo mi od njih uzeli "keltsku" kulturu. da ovde samo napomenem da nije sve "keltsko" i irskoj i engleskoj slovensko ili palticko, vec je ta britanska "keltska" kultura mesavina iberske i slovenske. ja sam vec pisao na GG da se za tuatha de danaan tvrdi da su poreklom skiti. to onda znaci da su sloveni poreklom skiti. evo ovde link do posta sa GG:

http://forum.krstarica.com/showthread.php/420890-%D0%93%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%A2%D0%98%D0%A7%D0%9A%D0%90-%D0%93%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%90%D0%9B%D0%9E%D0%93%D0%98%D0%88%D0%90?p=23875582&viewfull=1#post23875582

ne znam da li je knjiga prevedena na srpski, ali ako nije treba je prevesti. ja cu probati ovde da prevedem sto vise mogu, jer objasnjava mnoge stvari koje su mi bile cudne i neobjasnjive dok ovu knjigu nisam procitao. kao na primer to sto se najveci broj slovenskih zemunica po engleskoj pripisuje anglosaksoncima.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danevirke

Archaeological excavations in 1969–75 established, with the help of dendrochronology, that the main structure of the Danevirke had been built in three phases between AD 737 and 968. It is, therefore, contemporary with Offa's Dyke, another great defensive structure of the late 8th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offa's_Dyke

Offa's Dyke (Welsh: Clawdd Offa) is a massive linear earthwork, roughly followed by some of the current border between England and Wales. In places, it is up to 65 feet (19.8 m) wide (including its flanking ditch) and 8 feet (2.4 m) high. In the 8th century it formed some kind of delineation between the Anglian kingdom of Mercia and the Welsh kingdom of Powys. Research in recent decades has dispelled many of the earlier theories and ideas about the earthwork.

poreklo anglo saksonske rase

http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

srecna vam velja noc. neka vas veles cuva.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god)
 
pocetak prevoda porekla ango saksonske rase

neka od naselja u nekim oblastime mozda poticu jos iz britanskog doba pre anglo saksonske invazije. u drugim oblastima neka naselja su mozda formirana od ranijih keltskih doseljenika. Postoje mnoge druge i brojnije oblasti gde postoje grupisana izdvojena i zaokruzena sela. neka od tih sela su gradjena oko puteva koje se zracno sire iz jednog centra kao u germanskim naseljima izmedju reka elbe i wasera. U drugim slučajevima nalazimo sela u izduženom, zaobljenom, ili lepezasto obliku, gde su kuce gradjene oko centralnog trga. ovo nalikuje selima iz oblasti istočno od Elbe, i ova vrsta organicacije sela je verovatno doneta u britaniju od strane Wenda ili germanizovanih slovena. Ako je nekoliko sela tu i tamo Wemdskog porekla mi možemo opravdano tražiti tragove slavenskih uticaja u običajima, folkloru, i u imenima okruga. s obzirom da se u staro vreme u britaniji pricalo puno razlicitih jezika i dijalekata, mi mozemo da ocekujemo da neka imena mesta imaju koren u starom skandinavskom norrena jeziku, neka u germanskim jezicima a neka u slovenskim jezicima. engleski (anglo saksonski) jezik je nastao mesavinom svih ovih jezika sa keltskim jezicima. gde god nadjemo ime mesta sa wendskim ili vandalskim korenom, moguce je da je mesto dobilo ime po staresini plemena ili po nekom od stanovnika sela. primer ovakvih imena mesta je Wendelesworth u oblasti surrey. jedino objasnjenje za ime ovog mesta je da je imonovano po imenu coveka koji se zvao Wendel ili po Wendima, vandalima.ime ovog mesta je mnogo starije nego ime potoka koje danas nosi isto ime. to da li je ime nastalo od Wendskog poglavara ili od imena plemena ne pravi razliku. ime Wendel je dato ovim ljudima zato sto su pripadali Wendsoj ili vandalskoj rasi od strane ljudi iz obliznjih naselj u oblasti Surrey i Middlesex koji su bili drukcijeg porekla (moj dodatak: sto je isto radjeno u nemackoj i skandinaviji kada su slovenska naselja bila izolovana medju germanima).
Wandsworth je vazan ne samo zbog svog starog imena koje pokazuje da su Wendi bili medju originalnim anglo saksonskim doseljenicima, vec i zbog toga sto ukazuje na obicaj nasledjivanja poseda po liniji najmladjeg sina, sto je prastari obicaj praktikovan samo od slovena, pa tako ukazuje ko su ovi Wendi ili vandali ustvari bili. sloveni.
 
varjazi - Warings

Warinzi (Warings), cije ime se cesto vezuje za (poistovecuje sa) Angle u ranim istorijskim spisima, su pleme locirano na jugo zapadnim obalama baltika. od njihovog prvog pomena do njihovog zadnjeg pomena nalazimo ih povezane sa Anglima, i s obzirom da su ti zapisi pravljeni u periodu od nekoliko vekova, mozemo zakljuciti da je veza izmedju Waringa i Angla bila znacajna. Prokopus nam govori o Varinima koji naseljavaju obale severnog okeana kao i rajnsku oblast, tako da je izgleda potojala njihova rana migracija. Beddoe je primetio da su granice konfederacija franaka, saxonaca, frigijaca i angla, koji su nekad ukljucivali i warine, cesto menjane i nisu sledile jezicke granice. ovo je jako vazna primedba, jer mi nalazimo u franackoj konfederaciji franke koji su pricali germanski jezik i druga plemena koja nisu pricala germanski jezik. ovo je verovatno bilo tacno i za konfederaciju angla i waringa. angli su bili tevtonci, a waringi su verovatno bili mesanog germanskog i slovenskog porekla. u jednoj od saga oni se pominju kao Waernas ili Wernas. tacitus, koji nije bio u njihovoj zemlji, navodi ih kao germane. Warigsi su bili jedna od ranih trgovackih nacija baltika i trgovali su sa vizantijom putujuci gore dole rekama slavonije u malim brodovima koje su prenosili od reke do reke (moj komentar: isto kao vikinzi sa juga baltika mnogo vekova kasnije koji su pravili siroke brodove sa plitkim gazom idealne za prevlacenje preko zemlje od reke do reke. skandinavski brodovi su bili uski sa dubokim gazom i nisu mogli da se prevlace preko kopna.) poslednji pomen Waringa je iz 1030. godine. rani rusi su ih zvali Warings, njihovu zemlju Waringija a more na koje je njihova zemlja izlazila Waringsko more. u vizantiji oni su sebe takodje zvali Waring. oni su se u kasnijim vekovima mnogo mesali sa normanima i nestali su kao posebna nacija (pleme). bas su ljudi ove rase bili ti koji su se u 11. i 12. veku bili u vojnoj sluzbi vizantijskih careva. u konstantinopolju su bili znani kao Warangijska garda, i u ovoj gardi je bilo staro engleskih vojnika, sto ukazuje na vezu izmedju ovih rasa.
 
jos o varjazima (koji su isto sto i Rujani koji su isto sto i obodriti)

za bilinge (Billings) se kaze da su bili kraljevska rasa (loza) Waringa i moguce je da pronadjemo ovo pleme pod tim imenom u engleskoj. zapadni deo maklenburga (veligrada) je dugo bio poznat kao "mark of the billings" iliti bilingska krajina. ime Waering se pojavljuje u skandinavskim runskim zapisima. u jednom koji je nadjen u torviku u norveskoj, se kaze: Lsema (ili verovatnije Laeda) Waeringsea iliti leda waeringska, sto znaci da je spomenik podignut nekom ko je bio od waringskog roda...

Waringi koji su bili tako bliski saveznici sa anglima, su bili jako zainteresovani za trgovinu izmedju grckih vizantijskih kolonija i balitickih luka. nestor, kaludjer iz kijeva koji je pisao u 11. veku, pominje novgorod kao grad varanga i po tome se moze zakljuciti da je u to vreme postojala velika varangijska kolonija u rusiji. takodje se kaze da je u ranom srednjem veku bilo puno gotlandera u rusiji sto je potvrdjeno mnogobrojnim arheoloskim nalazima na gotlandu koji govore o trgovini sa rusijom. jos jedan interesantan podatak koji se tice Waranga je njihova veza sa ostrvom riigen (rugen, rujan) koji se u vreme biskupa ottoa (11. vek) pominje kao Verania a narod koji zivi na ovom ostrvu se naziva Verani i o njima se kaze da su zadrti pagani (sto je kasnije potvrdjeno time da su bili poslednje uporiste slovenskog paganizma). ottovi izvestaji nepobitno vezuju riigen (rujan) sa slovenskim paganizmom i takodje vezuju Waringe za rujan i time za slovene.
vec smo pomenuli jedan jos stariji pomen Waringa od strane ptolomeja pod imenom Pharadini (sto zvuci jako slicno kao Varini ili Waringi). ptolomej kaze da su oni ziveli pored saksonaca (u holstajnu) i koji su bili saveznici angla sto takodje ukazuje da su Pharadini isto sto i Varini i Waringi. ime varina (Waringa) se pojavljuje u imenu reke Warina, Warna, koja daje ime mestima Warnof i Warnemiinde koja se oba nalaze na baltickoj obali.
prokopius takodje pominje Waringe i govori o udaji cerke jednog od kraljeva istocne engleske za kralja Waringa. ovi saveznici prastarih Angla su ostavili svoj trag u istoriji istocne evrope. njihov uticaj na stare slovene u rusiji je bio ogroman. u konstantinopolju Warangijska garda grckih imperatora je imala politicki uticaj. visok stas i svetla put i plava kosa i oci ovih ratnika sa severa je ostavila dubok uticaj na grke i azijate iz kontstantinopolja.
Hauscarls, licna garda vikiskog kralja Knuta velikog u engleskoj je bio kopija vizantijske kraljevske garde. i ova vojna formacija je takodje bila sastavljena od Waringa. (ja dodajem da je u to isto vreme spanski kalif takodje imao istu takvu gardu, verovatno takodje sastavljenu od Waringa, samo sto su je muri zvali "slovenska garda" cisto da ne bude zabune). po fizickom izgledu, Warangijski saveznici Angli su verovatno bili slicni Warangima. i dan danas u zabacenim delovima engleske koje su originalno naselili Angli i njihovi saveznici, a gde je stanovnistvo ostalo manje vise ne promenjeno od tad, visina lokalnog stanovnistva je iznad britanskog proseka. (ja se pitam da li su svi angli ustvari bili sloveni???) najveci uticaj Waranga je bio medju starim istocnim slovenima gde su oni doveli vizantijsku crkvu i kreirali hriscansku rusiju.
jedan od najinteresantnijih plemena angla koja su se naselila u englesku je bilo pleme Lindisfarne. to ime se nije originalno idnosilo na malo ostrvo blizu Northumbrijske obale, vec na uzak obalski pojas nasuprot ostrvu. linsiwaran je bio deo obale izmedju reka lindis i waran (gore smo pomenuli reku warinu ili warnu iz nemacke). ostrvo Bede kaze da je lindiswarne bilo sveto ostrvo ljudi koji su ziveli na obali nasuprot ovom ostrvu. ovo malo pleme Angla (Anglske konfederacije, verovatno Waringi, sloveni) je jedno od najinteresantnijih plemena Angla za koje imamo sacuvane podatke. kraljevi ovog plemena su tvrdili da poticu od Wodena. nije nemoguce da je njihovo sveto ostrvo nosilo ime Halig isto kao sto u friziji sveto ostrvo nadomak obale i dan danas nosi ime Heligoland. Wendi sa baltika koji su zivelo pored Angla su takodje imali svoje sveto ostrvo Riigen (Rujan) gde se nalazio njihov glavni paganski hram. posedovanje svetog ostrva na kome se obavljaju sveti obredi je verovatno bio deo religije i zato kad su se doselili u Northumberland izabrali su ostrvo Lindisfarne kao centar svog religijskog kulta. kasnije kada su pokrsteni, na ovom ostrvu je izgradjen cuveni manastij Lindisfarne.
na baltiku su Angli i Waringi naseljavali holstajn donji deo jutlanda, neka danska ostrva i cak delove skandinavskog poluostrva. (moja primedba: ovo se tacno poklapa sa pozicijom danevirke).
saveznistvo Angla i Waringa ukazuje na konfederaciju. od tacita na ovamo se ova dva plemena stalno pominju zajedno. u vreme karla velikog se pominje zakonik koji se zove "Leges Anglorum et Werinorum", zakonski kodeks Angla i Waringa. Zemlja Angla i Waringa se na zapadu granicila sa zemljom frizana, na jugi sa zemljom saksonaca a na zapadu sa zemljom wenda. imigracrija Angla u britaniju je bila toliko velika i zauzela je toliku teritoriju, da je nemoguce da je sve to postignuto samo sa populacijom sa male teritorije koju su na baltiku drzali Angli, pa se zato pretpostavlja da je ime Angli bilo ime konfederacije u kojoj su ucestvovala mnoga druga plemena (moj komentar: verovatno slovenska jer je sve na istok bilo slovensko.).
u engleskoj postoje mnogobrojni toponimi koji pocinju sa Waring i sa Billing koja pokazuju gde su se naselili Waringi.
 
Poslednja izmena:
izgleda da ovo sto sam ovde napisao u vezi milojevica i njegove srbice i nije tako blesavo.

MILOJEVICEVASRBIJA.jpg


da li je milojeviceva srbica teritorija originalne Anglijske konfederacije koja je obuhvatala Angle, Waringe, Rugiane, Wiltne (Wilice), Jute (Gote, Ostrogote, Guitone), Dane (Dance), Wende (Vandale), Leche (Lehe), Sklavine...da li su se oni svi ranije zvali srbi nije toliko ni bitno. bitno je da su oni svi tacno u ono vreme o kome milojevic prica bili deo iste konfederacije koja je imala jak slovenski karakter.

http://forum.krstarica.com/showthread.php/420890-%D0%93%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%A2%D0%98%D0%A7%D0%9A%D0%90-%D0%93%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%90%D0%9B%D0%9E%D0%93%D0%98%D0%88%D0%90?p=23701119&viewfull=1#post23701119

izgleda da je ovo ustvari jako blizu istine

http://forum.krstarica.com/showthread.php/420890-%D0%93%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%A2%D0%98%D0%A7%D0%9A%D0%90-%D0%93%D0%95%D0%9D%D0%95%D0%90%D0%9B%D0%9E%D0%93%D0%98%D0%88%D0%90?p=24014577&viewfull=1#post24014577
 

Prilozi

  • MILOJEVICEVASRBIJA.jpg
    MILOJEVICEVASRBIJA.jpg
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Poslednja izmena:
Vandali (Wendi)

poreklo anglosaksonske rase poistovecuje wende i vandale. pisac knjige, thomas william shore, zakljucuje da je u pitanju jedan te isti narod na osnovu ranih istorijskih zapisa koji kontstantno poistovecuju vende, venete i vandale, na osnovu arheoloskih nalaza iz vandalskih zemalja u nemackoj koji su slovenski a ne germanski i na osnovu slovenskih obicaja i wendskih iliti slovenskih toponima koji su preziveli medju "vandalskim" naseljenicima u britanjiji.
evo sta sve poreklo anglosaksonske rase ima da kaze o vandalima:

...gde god u u engleskoj nadjemo mesto cije ime je izvedeno iz wend, wand, wind, mozemo da zakljucimo da je ovo ime dato ili po staresini sela koji se zvao wend ili wand ili po tome sto su ljudi koji su ziveli u selu bili wendi ili vandali po poreklu...
...Henry of Huntingdon kaze da su osvajaci koji su poslati kao pogrom na hriscansku englesku zbog njenih grehova, a koje mi danas zovemo danci, bili ustvari danci, svedjani, vandali, frigijci, goti i norvezani koji su svi bili deo danske alijanse...
...William of Malmesbury koji je pisao u ranom 12. veku kaze da je germanija zemlja koja je dobila ime po tome sto je proizvodila (germinated) puno muskaraca. takodje germanija je zemlja mnogih plemena, i ona imaju obicaj da mladi muskarci odlaze u svet da traze nove zemlje za sebe jer u geramaniji nema mesta za sve njih i da se to ko ide a ko ostaje odlucuje kockom. takodje se kaze da ovaj obicaj na primer imaju vandali, goti, lomgardi, i normani...
...cinjenica da su goti i vandali iliti wendi bili saveznici od pradavnih vremena se ne moze poreci. interesantno je da su rune nadjene samo na gotskim i vendskim teritorijama kako u skandinaviji i juznom baltiku tako i u britaniji. u coslinu na juznom baltiku na wendskoj teritioriji nasuprot ostrvu rujan, arheolozi su nasli objekte sa anglijskim runama iz petog veka. ovi natpisi sadrze runske simbole koji su prvi put vidjeni u engleskoj na teritorijama koje su u najranijem periodu anglo saksonske invazije naselili angli i njihovi saveznici. ovo pokazuje da su vandali iliti wendi bili povezani sa engleskom u 5. veku. vandali su kao i goti bili jako dobri navigatori i pomorci i takozvani angli su verovatno gotskog porekla...

moj komentar: dalje se kaze da su rune izmislili goti i da su ih bazirali na grcikom alfabetu. ovo se bazira na konstantnom insistiranju na tome da su goti bili kulturno superiorniji od slovenskih vandala, pa su stoga oni morali biti ljudi koji su izmislili rune. ja mislim da je mnogo verovatnije da su rune na sever doneli vandali ili ti wendi iliti veneti i da one poticu od vincanskog pisma sa balkana. rune su bile originalno slovensko pismo, crte i reze. goti su verovatno zaista vojno porazili i politicki potcinili vandale iliti wende. ali su verovatno od wenda primili kulturu.

...tesko je izbeci zakljucak da su goti bili saveznici angla i da su se naselili u britaniji u znacajnom broju. pnogo posto su rimljani napustilu britaniju, britanija je jos uvek bila smatrana delom imperije. 537 godine nove ere belisarius u ime imperatora je dao britaniju na upravljanje gotima sto pokazuje da je vizantijski imperator u 6. veku znao da su goti prisutni u britaniji u velikom broju.
goti su takodje bili bliski saveznici vandala iliti wenda, ciji su rujanci, stanovnici ostrva rujan, bili deo. trgovina na baltiku je u vreme anglo saksonskog naseljavanja britanije bila uglavnom u rukama gota. nemoguce je preuvelicati znacaj ostrva gotland i najveceg trgovackog grada na gotlandu koji se zvao wisby. postoji veza izmedju trgovackih linija koje su uspostavili goti izmedju baltika i britanije i kasnijih invazionih ruta kojima su se naseljavali angli u britaniji. na svim mestima gde su se naselili angli i njihovi balticki saveznici nadjen je cilibar. trgovina cilibarom je jedna od najstarijih u evropi. goti su kotnrolisali trgovinu cilibara.
moj komentar: u vreme kada je cilibar stigao u egipat i palestinu nosio je naziv sacla stakla staklo. slovenski jezici su jedini jezici na kojima staklo ima koren skl, tako da su ljudi koji su dali ime cilibaru verovatno bili sloveni wendi vandali. inace na germanskim jezicima cilibar se zove glesso sto cnaci staklo...
ljudi sa baltika koji su u davninama skupljali cilibar i trgovali njime su bili poznati kao guthones ili kao estyi. postojala su dva puta kojima je cilibar mogao da dodje do mediterana: jedan preko geramnije i drugi preko sarmatije ili slavonije. razlog za duplo ime za ljude na uscu vistule koji su trgovali cilibarom verovatno potice upravo od toga sto su im jedno ime dali trgovci sa istoka a drugo trgovci sa zapada. germani su ih zvali estyi a sloveni su ih zvali guthones. ovi guthones su bili isti oni goti sa gotlanda i iz svedske...
moj komentar: ovo verovatno nije tacno. goti su mozda politicki kontrolisali juzni baltik pa je cela konfedracija bila poznata kao gotland ali su ljudi koji su ziveli oko visutle najverovatnije bili gotski saveznivi vandali wendi koji su tu oduvek ziveli.
...da us goti ziveli u skandinaviji govori to sto su tu nadjeni runski zapisi u istocnom gotlandu koji kaze da je poglavar po imenu Waring uvecao moc gota u skandinaviji. ime Waring je takodje povezano sa istocnim ili ti ostro gotima iz svedske...
moj komentar: videli smo ranije da su Warings ustvari sloveni wendi pa se ovde ustvari pokazuje da su ostrogoti ustvari bili wendi vandali sloveni.
...medju anglosaksoncima u britaniji je cilibar koriscen od naranijih vremena za pravljenje nakita sto je potvrdjeno arheoloskim nalazima u najstarijim anglosaksonskim slojevima. to govori o razvijenoj trgovini izmedju baltika i britanije u ranom srednjem veku. anglosaksonci su ljude koji su trgovali cilibarom zvali Eastmen ili Eastyi. kralj Alfred pominje imena Estum i Estmare u vezi sa Vistulom kada govori o situaciji u zemlji koju on zove Veonod-land (Wendland, Vitland), i u drugim zemljama na juznom baltiku. Estyi se pominju i od strane plinija i tacitusa. tacitus ih locira u "Estuarium Oceani", i Latham kaze da je ovo dolazi od toga sto je Estware ili Estmen verovatno pogresno protumaceno kao ljudi koji dolaze sa estuara (estuary)...
moj komentar: ovo moze da bude i tacno jer je mnogo plemena na baltiku dobilo ime (bar u latinskim hronikama) po rekama oko kojih su ziveli, pa je moguce da su estyi ziveli u estuaru vistule.
...plini povezuje este sa trgovinom cilibarom, i tacitus sledeci obalu baltika stize u njihovu zemlju. lokacija ovih ljudi je dakle u vreme plinija i tacitusa ista ona gde se cilibar nalazi i danas. na severu od ove zemlje esta je ostrvo gotland, i ovo ostrvo je u vreme rimljana bilo najveci trgovacki centar severa evrope.

nastavak za par dana.
 

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