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Žrtva

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23.904
Mislim da ni jedan vernik ako ima i gram mozga nebi zrtvovao svoje dete zarad boga.
Sta vise, mnogi se pozivaju da su veliki vernici a ne mogu da ispune ni minimum onoga sto vera od njih trazi.
U prici su najveci i najbolji a na delima sipak :(
Dzabe molitve, odlasci u crkvu i sl
Moraš raščlaniti tvrdnje.
Umesto jednog, moraš postaviti dva pitanja:
1. Da li bi Bog zahtevao takvu vrstu zrtve?
2. Ako je odgovor DA, onda možeš nekom postaviti pitanje "da li bi bio spreman na takvu žrtvu?". Ako je odgovor na prvo pitanje NE, onda je neumesno insistirati na drugom pitanju.

Nadam se da sam pojasnio situaciju
Pise li negde da bog ako se nekome i javi nece zahtevati takvu vrstu zrtve i zasto je to trazio od Avrama [ako je to uopste i trazio, ako nije izmisljeno] ?
 

south railroad

Domaćin
Moderator
Poruka
3.225
Sta mislis dal bi li sadasnji vernici bili spremni zrtvovati svoje rodjeno dete zarad poverenja bogu ?
Ne bi niko, zato sto je Avraam jedan i jedini. Od toliko milijardi do sada zivelih ljudi, niko nikad, niti ce iko imati Avramovu veru i poverenje u Boga.

Ako uzmemo i reci Pisma da Bog ne iskusava nikoga preko njegove moci, onda se i moze shvatiti da je Bog odlicno znao Avramovu veru i nije mu trazio zrtvu zbog Avraama ili zbog Sebe, vec da bi ostalo zapisano nama za primer ogromne vere koji je Avraam imao. Zato je on simbol te vere i ljubavi ka Bogu.

A to sto mislis da se penjes na neki umisljeni pijadestal nadmoci nad vernicima postavljajuci takva nebulozna pitanja, je jednostavno smesno
 

De_Sisti

Buduća legenda
Moderator
Poruka
47.506
To pitanje je neumesno postaviti i njima.
Imam prijateljicu koja je iz muslimanske porodice, deda joj bio hodza.
Udala se za pravoslavca rodila mu dete cak joj je i cerka koja je rodjena u prethodnog braku u kom je bila udata za muslimana presla u pravoslavlje.
Niko joj zbog toga nije pretio smrcu niti je se porodica odrekla i dan danas ide u Mostar u poseti svojoj familiji.
Zamisli sada da neko zapne uporno sa tim da li su te hteli tvoji ubiti.
Ako te nisu ubili onda nisu pravi muslimani ...... strasno
Sta hoce ?
Da je njeni roknu da bi tamo neki kreten onda rekao to su pravi muslimani ..... ubice, ubise je?
Što su više udaljeni od islama, to su sami muslimani umereniji.
Zbog toga, ovdašnje muslimane, salafisti prozivaju da uopšte i nisu pravi "vjernici"
Quran
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not "have faith" and (along with verses 90-91) do not agree to banishment and subjugation. (See the "Why They are Wrong" section of this response to apologists for a deeper analysis).
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith that establish the death sentence for apostates are Quran verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, 9:66.
Hadith and Sira
The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" This verse from the Hadith is worse than it appears because it isn't speaking solely of apostates, but those who say they believe but don't put their religion into practice.

Sahih Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).
 

.Gogilli.

Poznat
Poruka
7.192
Što su više udaljeni od islama, to su sami muslimani umereniji.
Zbog toga, ovdašnje muslimane, salafisti prozivaju da uopšte i nisu pravi "vjernici"
Quran
Quran (4:89) - "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them." Verse 4:65 says that those who have faith are in "full submission" to Muhammad's teachings. This verse explains what should happen to Muslims who do not "have faith" and (along with verses 90-91) do not agree to banishment and subjugation. (See the "Why They are Wrong" section of this response to apologists for a deeper analysis).
Quran (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith that establish the death sentence for apostates are Quran verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, 9:66.
Hadith and Sira
The most reliable Hadith collection contain numerous accounts of Muhammad and his companions putting people to death for leaving Islam. According to verse 4:80 of the Quran: "Those who obey the Messenger obey Allah."

Sahih Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Sahih Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Sahih Bukhari (84:57) - [In the words of] "Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Sahih Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."

Sahih Bukhari (84:58) - "There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, 'Who is this (man)?' Abu Muisa said, 'He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.' Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, 'I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice.' Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, 'Then we discussed the night prayers'"

Sahih Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'" This verse from the Hadith is worse than it appears because it isn't speaking solely of apostates, but those who say they believe but don't put their religion into practice.

Sahih Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Abu Dawud (4346) - "Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?" Muhammad is chastising his companions for allowing an apostate to "repent" under duress. (The person in question was Muhammad's former scribe, who left him after doubting the authenticity of divine "revelations" - upon finding out that grammatical changes could be made. He was brought back to Muhammad after having been captured in Medina).

al-Muwatta of Imam Malik (36.18.15) - "The Messenger of Allah said, "If someone changes his religion - then strike off his head."

Reliance of the Traveller (Islamic Law) o8.1 - "When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed." (o8.4 affirms that there is no penalty for killing an apostate).
Sve ja to znam ali to nije nikakva osnova da sa tim idem i masem svojoj prijateljici da joj familija nije uopste dobra, da nisu nikakvi vernici jer da jesu moraju ali znas ono moraju, da je ubiju.
Izuzetno je degutantno da JA KOJI NISAM stalno postavlja jedno te isto pitanje da li bi vernik ubio svoje dete i kad dobije odgovor da nebi, onda bi nastavljao sa tim kako ta osoba nije nikakav vernik.
Stojim iza toga da mesati decu na takav nacin a niko nista nije o deci pisao da bi se on nadovezao takvim pitanjem je izuzetno degutantno i bezobrazno.
tako da ako on nastavi kad god mi je dosadno nastavicu i ja :)

tema:....
nema teme, odavno je obesmisljena, sve je otislo u persun :D
 

De_Sisti

Buduća legenda
Moderator
Poruka
47.506
Sve ja to znam ali to nije nikakva osnova da sa tim idem i masem svojoj prijateljici da joj familija nije uopste dobra, da nisu nikakvi vernici jer da jesu moraju ali znas ono moraju, da je ubiju.
Naravno da treba imati obzira u ophođenju s ljudima. Loša i teška reč u neprimerenom trenutku nanosi više štete nego i loše delo.
U tom smislu, naravno da ne bih polemisao s osobom iz te priče o tome kakvi su vernici njeni roditelji, jer ne bi bilo nikakve svrhe za to, ali bih svakako i dalje bio svestan šta njihova religija traži od njih, i kako se ta religija dosledno primenjuje u zemljama strožijeg pristupa toj religiji
 

vcbccbc vcbcvb

Iskusan
Poruka
6.892
Legitimno je podsetiti na slučaj Avrama [kao što je to uradio @vcbccbc vcbcvb , iako sam nije ponudio objašnjenje, već čeka sa strane] i tražiti objašnjenje
ma ko nije ponudio objasnjenje - bog ga vodi da zrtvuje sina, a potom ga andjeo sprecava - ajd sad, odakle andjelima autoritet da se suprotstavljaju bogu, i da uspeju u suprotstavljanju? to nema u mojim knjigama. A rvanje sa andjelom i/ili Bogom moze, i treba, ali ZASTO treba, Jakov zna, i za njega nije ni bitno sa kim se rvao,a ni za nas, dok god je andjeo ili Bog. A u prethodnom kontekstu je bitno.

dakle, ja cu da ispratim svaciju logiku, ali morate i vi malo bar da saradjujete, da satrudstvujete, sto rece bogomoljac.
a mora i zbunjivanje, pa nisam ja nista izmislio, samo pratim proceduru, zauzimam busije, kao svaki vojnik, i znam ko je podredjen, a ko nadredjen....
 
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anajade

Domaćin
Poruka
4.921
ma ko nije ponudio objasnjenje - bog ga vodi da zrtvuje sina, a potom ga andjeo sprecava - ajd sad, odakle andjelima autoritet da se suprotstavljaju bogu, i da uspeju u suprotstavljanju?

dakle, ja cu da ispratim svaciju logiku, ali morate i vi malo bar da saradjujete, da satrudstvujete, sto rece bogomoljac.
a mora i zbunjivanje, pa nisam ja nista izmislio, samo pratim proceduru, zauzimam busije, kao svaki vojnik, i znam ko je podredjen, a ko nadredjen....
al se bog vec unapred dogovorio sa andjelima..cim.on krene da ubija sina vi ga vatajte za gusu haha
 

vcbccbc vcbcvb

Iskusan
Poruka
6.892
al se bog vec unapred dogovorio sa andjelima..cim.on krene da ubija sina vi ga vatajte za gusu haha
ne, nego prvo moraju da se vide kanaanski obicaji gde se ovaj zadesio uopste
a Bog nema sta da se dogovara, vec naredjenje - izvrsenje [secas se kapetana iz jevandjelja]
p.s. a ja mogu i da vam nacrtam, ne bi bilo prvi put, pa da vi svi sigurnio razumete
 
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south railroad

Domaćin
Moderator
Poruka
3.225
Svako pitanje koje zaboli je neumesno.
Treba znati sta smes da pitas vernike a sta ne :D
Pitanje koje zaboli???? :D

Nego aj sad si dobio odgovor i slobodno skakuci na zamisljenom tronu ko neki... tamo neki. E a kad se umoris cekam odgovor na pitanje koje ti postavih, valjda ces me udostojiti odgovora. Daklem:

Da li bi ti svom sinu rekao da je nastao od majmuna ili bi cekao da sam kasnije shvati? Da ili ne? :)
 
Poslednja izmena:
Poruka
23.904
Covek nije nastao od majmuna tako da to pitanje ne pije vodu.
Ali zrtvovanje deteta ako bog to zatrazi onome ko s njim komunicira jeste.
Znam da nece traziti ali ipak.......
Ko sto vernici tvrde "cuda se desavaju" :D
 

south railroad

Domaćin
Moderator
Poruka
3.225
Covek nije nastao od majmuna tako da to pitanje ne pije vodu.
Ali zrtvovanje deteta ako bog to zatrazi onome ko s njim komunicira jeste.
Znam da nece traziti ali ipak.......
Ko sto vernici tvrde "cuda se desavaju" :D
Ne vrdaj. Odgovori onako kako si i sam trazio da se odgovori ili vi ateisti bezite kad vam se postavi bolno pitanje. Da te vidim sad nevero... :hahaha:

P.S. Vidis kako zvuce glupa pitanja. :D
 

south railroad

Domaćin
Moderator
Poruka
3.225
Zelis da napravis majmuna od mene igrom reci, ne ide kume......
Ali to je jedino cime mozes da odbranis ove koji ne zele da odgovore na moje pitanje
Ti kaza... :D Ok nisam znao da nisi ni evolucionista.

Lepo ti rekoh da batalis te stvari, ne sto nema odgovora nego sto kad bi se sad pomucio malo da ti objasnim ko je Avraam, cega je simbol, i sta predstavlja u Pismu, ne bi prihvatio. Niti bi shvatio Boziji domostroj spasenja coveka po kome Bog ne daje coveku neku, da kazem zapovest koja je preko njegove mere.
Pitanje je na mestu, ali ti ne bi shvatio odgovor.
 

south railroad

Domaćin
Moderator
Poruka
3.225
Aj da probam malo slikovito da ti objasnim, vezano za bilo koje slicno pitanje. Kad bi Bog stao pred coveka i zatrazio mu da zrtvuje svoje dete i recimo covek odbije. Sta sa tim? Dobice kaznu? Izgubice vecni zivot? Postace nevernik? I sta bi Bog imao od toga? A ako bi covek pristao da to uradi i izvrsi. Sta bi opet Bog imao od toga? Pa i otac i sin su u njegovoj vlasti. Zato Bog ne trazi od coveka tako nesto. Isto mozes pitati: Da li bi stavio pojas sa dinamitom i razneo se medju ljude da ti Bog to trazi? I opet bi se svelo ne isto. Ne trazi Bog od nas zlo. Pozvani smo da se popravimo i oslobodimo svakojakih strasti, a ne da zivimo paranoicno ko tamo neki...

Kroz svoj zahtev Avraamu, Bog nam pokazuje sta hoce od nas. Veru, ljubav i poverenje prema Njemu. Trazio je to od Avraama posle obecanja da ce se u njemu blagosloviti svi narastaji. I sad stoji Avraam i kaze, ako zrtvujem sina, kako cu imati narastaje kad nemam potomka, a ako ne zrtvujem Bog ga moze uzeti Sam ako zeli. U Njegovoj smo vlasti. Bog je. I na kraju veruje Bogu da ce on biti taj u cijem ce se semenu blagosloviti narastaji.
Zato se Avraam naziva Patrijarhom i onim koji je obrazac vere i poverenja. I to je ono blagosloveno seme koje je poteklo od Avraama, ta vera i to poverenje. Avraam je, ko sto ti rekoh, jedini covek koji je ikada ziveo na zemlji koji imao tu veru. Niko nikad vise medju svim ljudima. samo on. Zato se i pominje u N.Zavetu onaj siromah Lazar da se tesi blizu Avraama u raju. Ne blizu Mojsija, Ilije... ili bilo kog drugog koji su bili veliki medju ljudima, vec kod Avraama. Kod simbola vernosti.
 

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