Quantcast

OD KRALJA MIDE DO CARA TROJANA — poreklo starih priča

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Mide.jpg


Čitah u zadnje vreme malo o našim pričama, koje se smatraju dosta starima...pitanje njihovog porekla zanimljivo je ništa manje od drugih etioloških pitanja. Naša narodna priča, zapisana od strane Vuka S. Karadžića:

Био је један цар који се звао Тројан. У тога цара биле су уши козје, па је редом звао бербере да га брију; али како је који ишао, није се натраг враћао, јер како би га који обријао, цар Тројан би га запитао шта је видео на њему, а берберин би одговорио да је видео козје уши; онда би га цар Тројан одмах посекао.

Тако дође ред на једног берберина, али се овај учини болестан, па пошаље свога момка. Кад овај изиђе пред цара, запита га цар што није мајстор дошао, а он одговори да је болестан. Онда цар Тројан седе те га момак обрије. Момак, бријући цара, опази да су у њега козје уши, али кад га Тројан запита шта је у њега видео, он одговори да није видео ништа. Онда му цар да дванаест дуката и рече му да одсад увек долази он да га брије. Кад момак отиде кући, запита га мајстор како је у цара, а он му одговори да је добро и да му је цар казао да га свагда он брије и покаже му дванаест дуката што је од цара добио, али му не каже да је у цара видео козје уши.

Од то доба овај је момак једнако ишао и Тројана бријао, и за свако бријање добијао по дванаест дуката, и није никоме казивао да цар има козје уши. Али га најпосле стане мучити и гристи где не сме никоме да каже, те се почне губити и венути. Мајстор то опази, па га стане питати шта му је, а он му на много запиткивање најпосле одговори да има нешто на срцу. али нс сме никоме казати, „а да ми је", вели „да коме год кажем, одмах би ми одлакнуло." Онда му мајстор рече:

— Кажи мени, ја нећу никоме казати; ако ли се бојиш мени казати, а ти иди духовнику, па кажи њему; ако ли нећеш ни њему, а ти изиђи у поље иза града, па ископај јаму те закопај главу у њу, па у три пута земљи кажи шта Знаш, па онда опет јаму затрпај.

Момак избере ово треће: отиде иза града у поље, па ископа јаму, те у њу завуче гдаву и у три пута рекне:

— У цара Тројана козје уши! — Па онда загрне земљу, и тако се смири и отиде кући.

Кад после тога прође неко време, али из оне јаме никла зова, и три прута нарасла лепа и права као свећа. Чобанчад, кад нађу зову, одсеку један прут и од њега начине свиралу, али кад почну свирати, свирала издаје глас:

— У цара Тројана козје уши!

То се одмах разгласи по свему граду, а најпосле и цар Тројан сам собом чује како деца свирају:

— У цара Тројана козје уши!

Чувши то, цар Тројан одмах дозове онога берберског момка, па га запита:

- Море, шта си ти огласио народу за мене?

А он се сиромах стане правдати да није никоме ништа казао, али да је видео шта он има. Онда цар истргне сабљу да га посече, а он се препадне, па све по реду искаже како се земљи исповедао па како је сад на ономе месту нарасла зова, од које свака свирала издаје онаки глас. Онда цар седне с њим на кола, и пође на оно место да види је ли истина; кад тамо, али још само један прут нађу. Цар Тројан заповеди да се начини свирала од онога прута да види како ће свирати. Кад они начине свиралу и почну свирати, а свирка издаје глас:

— У цара Тројана козје уши!

Онда се цар Тројан увери да се на земљи не може ништа сакрити, па ономе берберину опрости живот, и после допусти да сваки може долазити да га брије.


U antičkom razdoblju, nešto drugačija verzija iste priče bila je poznata tadašnjem svetu. Centralna ličnost koja ima ulogu našeg cara Trojana jeste kralj Mida. Najpotpuniju verziju ove priče imamo od jednog od najčuvenijih pesnika Avgustovog vremena, Publija Ovidija Nazona (43. god. p. n. e. do 18. god. naše ere). U XI Ovidijevog najčuvenijeg dela, Metamorfoza, nalazimo između ostalog (priče o Troji, Orfeju i Midi generalno) ovo predanje:

Na blago Mida zamrziv zavuče se u šume, polja
K Panu (koji u brdskim u spiljama boravi sveđer),
Ali mu umna osta tupoća, i opet će njemu
Benava škoditi pamet, ko i prije škodila što je.
Široko gleda Tmol u pučinu dižuć se strmo
Uspetim visom i šireć sa obronka dva se na strani
Jednoj kraj mu je Sard, a na drugoj mala Hipépa.
Tu Pan hvaljaše jednoć pred Nimfama nježnijem svoje
Pjesme te neznatnu pjesmu na svirali sl'jepljenoj voskom
Sviraše; Feba pjevača držeći gorim od sebe
Dođe na nejednako nadmetanje k sudiji Tmolu.
Sudija stari sjedne na svojemu brdu, od uši
Ukloni stabla, a modru okružuje kosu mu samo
Hrastov vijenac, a žir niz čelo mu ugnuto visi.
Gledajuć boga stoke progovori: "Spreman je sudac".
Nato zasvira Pan na seljačkoj fruli i Midu,
Koji nazočan bješe, opčinio svojom je pjesmom
Varvarskom. Tmol tad k licu ka Febovu okrene glavu
Svetu, i okrene šuma za glavom se svojega boga.
Febu je na plavoj kosi lovorike Parnaske v'jenac,
Po tlih mu vuče se plašt u grimizu Tirskome močen;
Kitaru napetih žica o kamenje drago i o kost
Slonovu ljevicom drži, u desnici terzijan ima.
Umjetnik vidi se već po stajanju. Vještačkim prstom
Dirne strune Apòlôn, i osvojen njinom milotom
Odredi Tmol, da podloži Pan sad kitari frulu.
Kad tu presudu bog izrèčê planinski, svi je
Odobre, samo je stane da kudi Mida i reče,
Da to pravedno nije. Ne dopusti Deljanin tada,
Tako benave uši da oblik ljudski imadu,
Pa ih produlji te ih bjeličastom napuni dlakom,
Gipke ih učini ozdo i dade, da micat se mogu;
Sve mu je ostalo ljudsko, tek jedan je osuđen dio.
Tako dobije Mida sporohodnog magarca uši

Sakriti hoće Mida ušesa i stideć se grdno
Gleda, kako će glavu da krije grimiznom kapom;
Al' ih je vidio momak, što kralju dugu je kosu
Škarama obično strigo. Na vidjelo momak želeći
Iznijet opažen rug, izreći ga ne smje, al' nije
Šutjeti također mogo, te ode i zemlju iskopa;
Onda tihijem glasom u izritu promrmlja jamu,
Kakve je vidio uši u Mide, svog gospodara.
Odaju svoju tako izrečenu zemljom zatrpa
Momak i od jame ode od zagrnute šutećke.
Na mjestu onome lug poraste gusti od trske
Dršćuće, i kad uzri za godinu dana, odade
Onog, što posija tajnu, jer vjetrićem ljuljana trska
Iznosi sakrite r'ječi i odaje uši u kralja.


Ovidije.jpg
 
Poslednja izmena:

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Najstarije poznate tragove ove priče donosi Aristofan (druga polovina V i početak IV stoleća pre naše ere) u jednoj od svojih komedija (Plut).

LEADER OF THE CHORUS
What! we shall really all become rich?

CARIO

Aye, certainly; you will then be Midases, provided you grow ass's ears.
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristophanes/plutus.html

Aristofan.jpg


Proučavaoci starina smatraju da je ova priča u grčki svet došla sa istoka, iz Azije. Po tradiciji, čuvena frigijska kapa upravo je tako i nastala, kako bi Mida sakrio magareće uši ispod nje. Primer na bisti:

prhigijska kapa.jpg
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Od čuvenog istoričara književnosti, Pavla Popovića (1868-1939) o dve različite verzije ove pripovetke (Преглед српске књижевности, 116):

Једна од најпознатијих приповедака те врсте јесте У цара Тројана козје уши. То је стара бајка о Мидасовим ушима. Она се налази и у Овидија, као и често иначе по туђој писаној и усменој књижевности. Она се састоји у овоме. Берберин који опази да цар има козје уши, не може да се уздржи а да бар над јамом једном не викне шта је у цара видео; из јаме никне зова, и свирале од ње начињене одмах кажу ту тајну. То је версија класична, овидијевска. Друга версија има уз то споредан мотив како цар дође случајно у млечно сродство с берберином пошто поједе део погаче део погаче коју је мати берберинова са својим млеком умесила. Обе версије налазе се у нас: цар је у нас Тројан а и Диоклециан; у њега су уши козје, или је «крмећа глава» с магарећим ушима.

Naš veliki etnolog Veselin Čajkanović (Čudotvorni prsten, str 316) smatrao je da je ova pripovetka vizantijskog porekla. Čajkanović pominje vizantijskog gramtičara Ceca iz XII stoleća koji spominje ovu tradiciju:

Ajkan.PNG


47. У цара Тројана козје уши. - Вук Прип. No 39 (Груја Механџијћ). Антички праобразац је прича о Миди са магарећим ушима; код нас се она везује за Трајана и Диоклецијана ("козје уши" или "крмећа глава"), в. П. Поповић, Преглед 62. Наша прича је вероватно из византијског извора: о "Тројану са козјим ушима" говори византијски граматичар Цеца, из XII века. Сличну причу има и B. Schmidt (No 4).

Naziru se dve mogućnosti porekla ove priče. Ako je za verovati Čajkanoviću, stari su Srbi od Romeja preuzeli ovu priču i modifikovali je na svoj način: pošto je u srednjem veku u Romejskom carstvu nekako Mida postao Trajan, verovatno kao sastavni deo rimskog državničkog vladarskog kulta, Srbi su tu priču pokupili i, ne znajući ko je car Trajan, prozvali ga po svom narodnom, paganskom božanstvu, Trojanu.

To zvuči, na prvi pogled, vrlo logično. Međutim, ne objašnjava široku rasprostranjenost ovih priča. Da li je moguće da je, ako i prihvatimo da su srednjovekovni Srbi preuzeli ime centralne ličnosti pod romejskim uticajem, ova priča drevna baština, sa poreklom u praindoevropska vremena, a možda i ranije? :think:
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Benard Šmit 1877. godine objavio je narodnu priču sa Zakinta o kralju sa kozjim ušima:




https://archive.org/details/griechischemrch02schmgoog/


Der König mit den Bocksohren.
Es war einmal und zu einer gewissen Zeit ein junger Bursch, der ging, nachdem sein Vater gestorben war, in Trauerkleidern auf die Wanderschaft, immer der Nase nach. Indem er so dahin wanderte, sah er am Wege ein Schilfrohr stehen, das schnitt er ab und machte sich eine Flöte daraus. Als er nun auf der Flöte bliess, liess diese die Worte ertönen: 'Der König, der fünffach verschleierte, hat Bocksohren.' Er zog, immer auf der Flöte spielend, weiter und kam endlich in die Stadt des fünffach verschleierten Königs. Dieser König hatte wirklich Bocksohren, und seine Moeren hatten einst den Ausspruch gethan, dass, wenn sein Volk dieses erführe, er sterben werde. Darum war sein Kopf stets mit fünf Schleiern verhüllt, und niemand durfte sein Gesicht sehen ausser seinem Barbier, und der allein wusste, wie die Sache stand. Als nun der König von der Ankunft des jungen Mannes Kunde erhielt und erfuhr, was derselbe von ihm sage, gerieth er in Zorn, beschied sofort seinen Barbier zu sich und befahl ihm unter Drohungen anzugeben, wem er das Geheimniss verrathen habe. Der Barbier antwortete ihm zitternd, an dem ersten Tage, da er das Geheimniss erfahren, sei er nicht im Stande gewesen es bei sich zu behalten; er habe es jedoch keinem Menschen offenbart, sondern habe in den Erdboden ein Loch gegraben, seinen Mund hineingesteckt und es der Erde anvertraut; an dieser Stelle nun sei das Rohr emporgewachsen, aus welchem der Jüngling sich seine Flöte gemacht, und nicht dieser, sondern die Flöte bringe das Geheimniss an den Tag. Der König liess den Jüngling kommen, und dieser berichtete ihm unerschrocken die Wahrheit. Da rief der König, indem er des Spruchs seiner Moeren gedachte, seine Tochter zu sich, welche das schönste Mädchen auf Erden war, gab sie dem jungen Manne zur Frau und setzte diesen zu seinem Nachfolger ein. Hierauf zog er die Schleier von seinem Haupte weg, umarmte die Neuvermählten und verschied. Die lebten nun glücklich, wir aber hier noch glücklicher.


http://www.sagen.at/texte/maerchen/maerchen_griechenland/koenig_bocksohren.html

Šmitov komentar:


 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Nailazimo na sličnu priču kod Iraca, iz vremena pre nego što su Irci postali hrišćani:







Prica.PNG



THE KING WITH THE HORSE'S EARS.

The story I'm going to tell yous is not to be met every
day. I heard little Tom Kennedy, the great schoolmaster
of Rossard, say that he read it in the history of Ireland,
and that it happened before the people wor Christians.
It is about a king that never let himself be docked only
once a year. He lived in some ould city on the borders
of Carlow and Kilkenny, and his name was a queer one
— Lora Lonshach it was. So, as I said, he got his hair
cut once a year ; and tale or tidings was never after
hard of the barber that done it. About seven unlucky
fellows got the honour, and after that, dickens a barber
would come for love or money within a hen's race of
the castle. So the king made an Act of Parlement, that
all the shavers through the country was to cast lots ;
and if any one that got the short straw daared say
boo, down went his house.'^

So the first lot came to the son of a poor widow
woman, and the bellman proclaimed it through the
town ; and when the poor mother heard it she had like
to fall out of her stanin' ; but as that wouldn't save the
poor fellow's life, she thought betther of it, and run
up the street like wildfire, till she came to the palace
gates. She broke through the guards (I don't think the
old 'kings in Ireland took any trouble about mindin' the
gates ; for if they did, how could such crowds be always
at the fastes withinside ?) — She broke in, as I said, and
came into the big stone hall, where the king was takin'
his tay — if it's tay they used in them days.

" What brings this mad woman here ? " says he, flying
into a passion. " Go," says he to the butler, " and put
the guards into the dungeon, for lettin' me be disturbed
at my break'ast, and bid the drummer give 'em thirty
lashes apiece wud the cat-o'-noine-tails. What brings
you here, you unfortunate ould sinner ? " says he to the
poor woman, that was sitten' an her heels, and pulliluin'
fit to blow the roof off o' the house.

"Oh, plase your noble majesty," says she, "don't take
Thigueen from me. If you do, who'll I have to wake
and bury me dacent?" " An' who is Thigueen ? " says
he ; "an' what have I to say to him? " " Oh, an' isn't
he the unfortunate disciple that's to clip your majesty
to-morrow, an' sure after that I'll never see him again."
" Call the butler here," says the king to the little page.
" Plaze your majesty, he's gone to see the floggin'." " It
doesn't plaze my majesty, I tell you, for him to take the
liberty. Call the footman." " Sir, he's gone to mind the
butler." " Well, then, tundher and turf! call the coach-
man." " Sir, he said he'd go have an eye on the other
two, for fraid they'd go look at any one dhrinkin'."
" Well, then, call in the guards." " Oh, sure, they're all
gettin' the floggin'." " Cead millia mollaghart — Oh, tat-
theration to yez all ; isn't this the purty way I'm circum-
vented ! Begone, you oul' thief," says he to the poor
woman, " since I can't give you the chastisement you
desarve. You'll get your paustJia (boy) back safe an'
sound ; but if ever I lay eyes on you again, I'll have you
hung as high as Balffe or Gildheroy." ^ " Oh, may hea-
vens be your bed ! May all the sowls that ever left
you " " Out o' my sight, you torment ! My break'ast
is spiled, an' I'll be all through other the whole
day."

You may be sure the guards kep' an eye about 'em
next day, till the king was done his break'ast ; and then
the poor barber came in, like a dog with a kittle under
his tail. He stood, bowin', bowin', and all the blood in
his body down in his brogues. So the king looked at
him, an' says he, " My good fellow, you'll be at liberty to
go where you please after cutting my hair ; but you must
first take your Bible oath " Ah, that's true, they
didn't know anything about the Bible ; the oath he made,
him swear was, Dar la?nh an High (by the king's hand),
that he'd never tell anything that had ears and tongue
what he'd see that day.

So he sat down on his throne, took off his green
birredh, with his eyes fixed on the barber ; and when
the cap was off, up flew two brown horse's ears (but they
were as long as if they belonged to an ass), and bid
Thigue fall on with his scissors.

The poor lad never could rightly tell how he got
through the job. He had like once to cut the edge of
one ear ; but such a roar as the king let at him, while he
put down one ear and cocked up the other, almost ter-
rified him to death. He'd give the world to be away
some place where he could faint, and be done with the
business, head and pluck.

When he was over the job, the page handed him five
guineas — if it's guineas they had ; and says the king,
" Now, my lad, if I ever hear the wind o' the word of
this after you, if I don't hang you, or thransport you to
Bottomy Bay, I'll do worse ; I'll get you married to a
tay-dhrinking bawrshuch (scold) of a woman, that'll make
you wish you never was born before you're three months
man and wife. I will do that, by this scepthre, an' there's
both wood and stick in it ^ — so mind yourself."

The poor mother was there, looking over the half-
door, seeing if her son 'ud ever come back to her ; an'
at last, bedad, there he was, comin' down the street,
pullin' one leg after the other ; and when he came in, he
tumbled head and heels into his bed, without so much
as blessing himself. Ovoch, I'm always forgetting it's a
hathen story I'm telling. The poor mother begged and
beseecht him to tell her what ailded him, but dickens
a word he let on about it. At last, after two days and
nights, the doctor came ; and as sure as he did, he bid
Thigue put out his tongue, and let him feel his pulse.
"Docthor," says the poor fellow, "there's no use in
sthrivin' to blindfold the divel in the dark : I have a
saycret. If I can't tell it, I'll die ; and if I do tell it,
I'll not be allowed to live." " Sha gu dheine," says the
doctor, " is that the way the wind blows ? " When he
heard that the people the secret was not to be told to
were to have tongues and ears on 'em, says he to Thigue,
" Go into the wood there below ; "make a split in the
bark of one of the trees, tell your secret into the cut, and
try how you'll feel after it."

The doctor was hardly out of the house when Thigue
was up, and creeping off to the wood. He was afraid to
stop, for fear he'd be seen, till he got into the heart of it,
where two paths crossed one another. There was a nice
sally tree at the spot, and so Thigue went no farther ;
but cut the bark in a down gash, and stooped down, and
whispered into it, "Z'a Chliiais Chapail ar Labhradh
Loingseach." And the maning of them words is, " The
two ears of a horse has Lora Lonshach."

Well, the poor fellow was hardly done whispering,
when he felt as if a mountain was lifted off his back.
He'd be out of the wood home again in three jumps,
only for the wakeness of hunger that was on him, and
that he never felt while the secret was troubling him. A
neighbour, that was strainin' her dinner on the flags out-
side of her door, just as he got into the town, seein' him
go by so miserable-lookin', made him come in, and never
did he enjoy such a dinner of good potatoes and milk
before or since.

Well, with the joy, and the five guineas, and that,
himself and his mother lived like fightin' cocks for a long
time ; but the day twelvemonth was drawing near, when
he'd have to cut the king's long hair again, and his
mornings began to grow very dismal on him. But, before
the day come round, there was great coming and going ;
for the other four kings of Ireland were invited, along
with all the lords and ladies that choose to travel so far,
to listen to a great match of harp-playing between Craf-
tine, the king's harper, and any one that had the consate
to play again him.

Well and good, a week before the day appointed, the
harper found some cracks or worm-holes, or some meea
or other in his instrument, and so he went into the wood
to look for the makings of a new one. Where should
bad luck send him but to the very sally that Thigue told
his secret to ! He cut it down, and fashioned it into the
finest harp that ever you see (an' the dickens a harp ever
I saw but on a halfpenny) ; and when he tried it, he was
enchanted himself, such beautiful musiq as it played !

So at last the great day came, and the streets wor
filled with coaches and horses, and the big hall in the
palace was crammed. The king was on his high throne,
and the four other kings were before him, and behind
him, and at one side of him, and at the other ; and the
great lords and ladies were round the open place in the
centre where all the harpers were sitting ; and all such
people as you and me surrounded the quality, till you
couldn't put the blade of a knife between the walls and
themselves.
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
So the king gave the word of command, and up got
Craftine, and the music he made was so mournful that
those who couldn't cover their faces put a cross look on
themselves to hide their grief This didn't please the
king ; so he waved his hand, and Craftine struck up
a jig, and so bothered were they all, gentle and simple,
that they had no room for dancing, that they shouted out
for merriment, and any one that had a hat or a cap flung
it up to the rafters. By and by he got afeared that they
would all rush in on himself and the other harpers for
dancing room, and he changed the air to " Brian Boru's
March." Well, they were not so uproarious while it was
pla)ang ; but the blood was galloping through their veins
like mad. Every one that had room drew his sword, and
waved it over his head (and such a clatter as these swords
made striking one another !), and every one cried out the
war-cry of his own chief or king. This wouldn't do at all
for a continuance; so he changed his hand, and made
such music as angels do when they are welcoming good
souls to heaven. Every one shut their eyes and leaned
back, and hoped that the beautiful tune would never
come to an end.

But it was forced to come to an end, and the harper
let his arms fall on his knees, and every one sighed and
groaned for being brought back to the world again. You
may depend that Craftine was praised, and gold and
silver was thrown in showers to him. Then the harpers
of Leinster, Munster, Connaught, and Ulster tried their
hands, and, sure enough, fine music flew out from under
these hands ; but all did not come within miles of Craf-
tine's. So when they stopped, says the king to his harper.

"Give us one tune more to finish decently, and put all
that we invited in good humour for their dinner. I'm
afraid if you go on in this way the King of Greece or the
Emperor of Moroco will be sending for you one of
these days." " By your hand, my king," says Craftine,
" I'm afeard of the same harp. It wasn't my fingers at
all that struck out that music; it was the music that
stirred my fingers. There's some pishrogue on the in-
strument, and I'm in dread it will play us some trick."
" Oh, trick be hanged!" says the king; "play away."
" Well," says the other, " I must obey your majesty — why
shouldn't I ? Here goes ! "

Well, his fingers hardly touched the strings, when they
felt like sand-paper that was powdered with nettle-tops,
and out they roared as if thunder was breaking over the
roof, and a thousand men were smashing stones. Every
one was going to stop his ears, but a loud voice began to
shout out from the strings that were keeping hold of
Craftine's fingers, ' ' Da Chluais Chapail ar Labhradh
Loingseach ! "

Well, to be sure ! how the people were frightened, and
how they looked at the unfortunate sinner of a king, that
didn't know whether he was standing on his feet or his
head, and would give half Ireland to be ten miles
under ground that moment. He put up his poor hands to
his head, not knowing what he was doing, and, bedad, in
his fumbling he loosed the band of his birredh, and up
flew the two long hairy ears. Oh, what a roar came
from the crowd 1 Lora wasn't able to stand it ; he fell
in a stugue down from his throne, and in a few minutes
he had the hall to himself, barring his harper and some
of his old servants.

They say that when he came to himself, he was
very sorry for all the poor barbers that he put out of
the way, and that he pensioned their wives and mothers ;
and when there was no secret made of it, Thigueen
made no more work about docking him than he would
about you or me. Only for all the blood he got
shed he'd never be made the holy show he was in the
sight of people from all parts within the four seas ot
Ireland.

But for fear of being detected, we should willingly
claim this as an original Celtic legend. But alas ! the
learned in classic mythology would soon humble our
national vanity by quoting that troublesome old Midas
of Asia Minor, renowned for the fatal pair of ass's ears
bestowed on him by Apollo, the secret told to the reeds,
the minstrel fashioning a Pandean pipe out of these
reeds, and the treacherous miniature organ squeaking
out, " King Midas has the ears of an ass ! "

https://archive.org/details/cu31924029911017/
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Trojana pronalazimo u najstarijem poznatom ruskom epu, Priči o Igorovim pohodima posvećenim knezu Igoru Svjatoslaviču i njegovim pohodima protiv Kumana krajem XII stoleća. Ostavljajući po strani sve priče o autentičnosti i ni ne računajući da je sam tekst ostao do nas sačuvan u istoj formi kao i u vreme vladaoca Rurikovog roda, kao i priče o tome da je reč o prevari (falsifikatu iz XVIII stoleća u šta je Jozef Dobrovski mogao biti umešan), Trojan se javlja četiri puta u celom epu.

Pošto je tekst previše dugačak, postaviću ovde samo segmente u kojima se pojavljuje Trojan:

О, Бояне, соловию старого врѣмене <веремене>!
абы ты сиѣ пълкы въщекоталь,
скачя, славию <соловию>, мысльну дрѣву <дереву>,
лѣтая умъмь подъ облакы <оболокы>,
съвивая славы оба полы сего врѣмене <веремене>,
рищя въ тропу Трояню чрѣсъ <чересъ>
поля на горы.

14. О, Бојане, славуј-певче старих дана,
да опеваш ти тај поход
скакуто би, о славују, по дрвећу умишљену,
под облаке лето умом
свијајући обе поле славе исте,
стазама би Тројановим гонио се
преко поља преко гора.

Въстала обида въ силахъ Дажьбожя вънука;
въступила дѣвою на землю Трояню;
въсплескала лебедиными крилы
на синимь мори, у Дону,
- плещючи убуди жирьна врѣмена <веремена>
усобицѣ.

76. Уђе свађа међу војску Даждбогових потомака;
у обличју девојачком земљом она Тројановом
лабудовим крилма пљесну;
дође с ушћа реке Дона,
пљесну – прогна жирна лета.
Преста борба

Которою бо бяше
насилие отъ землѣ Половьчьскыѣ
на седмомь <семомь> вѣцѣ земли Трояни.

152. Иза ваших свађа поче
насртање половецко!
После дугог, седмог века Тројанова

Srpski prevod epa u celini: http://nevmenandr.net/cgi-bin/trans.py?it=iv

Ruski izvornik: http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/slav/aruss/slovigor/slovi.htm

P. S. Izgleda da postoji malena razlika u izdanjim, jer se ovde pojavljuje još jednom: https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/Слово_о_полку_Игореве/Текст
 

Mita Komita

Veoma poznat
Moderator
Poruka
13.616
Очигледно да је прича настала у народу који је живео на потезу Блиски Исток-Балкан.
Грчка верзија приче је крут и прилично килав превод са неког другог језика (убацујем Србски, па нек ме неко демантује ;))
Иначе краљу Мидасу је право име Мита а народ му се звао Мушки. То пише у персијским изворима.
Ирска прича не чуди јер има сијасет других ствари који их повезују са нашим народом (топоними, обичаји и стара религија).
Обрни окрени, србска бајка.
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Очигледно да је прича настала у народу који је живео на потезу Блиски Исток-Балкан.
Грчка верзија приче је крут и прилично килав превод са неког другог језика (убацујем Србски, па нек ме неко демантује ;))
Иначе краљу Мидасу је право име Мита а народ му се звао Мушки. То пише у персијским изворима.
Ирска прича не чуди јер има сијасет других ствари који их повезују са нашим народом (топоними, обичаји и стара религија).
Обрни окрени, србска бајка.
A otkud onda priča o hanu sa magarećim ušim kod Mongola, i posebnoj kapi koja nastaje kako bi sakrila to od naroda?

Iz zbirke narodnih priča sa Dalekog istoka, priča br. 21 (Kako je udovica spasila život sinu):

Long ages ago there lived in Chara Kitad, which lieth to the east of India, a king named Daibang, who had one only son. But this son never showed himself to the people. No one in the whole empire had once set his eyes on him. Every day he sent and fetched a handsome youth of the people to come and comb his hair for him, and immediately that he had made an end of combing him he had him put to death. Every day one. This went on for many years, and no one dared to withhold their son from the king’s command. At last it came to the turn of a youth who was a widow’s son. The widow, therefore, full of anguish at the thought of her son, her eldest stay and consolation, being taken from her and slain, made cakes of dough kneaded with her own milk, and gave them to her son, saying, “Manage so that while thou art combing the hair of the Khan, he shall eat one of these cakes.

The widow’s son, therefore, came and stood before the Khan; and as he combed the Khan’s hair with the Khan’s golden comb, he saw that the ears of the Khan were formed like to the ears of an ass, and that it was that his subjects might not know he had ears like to the ears of an ass, that he put to death every day the young men, who, combing his hair, had seen them. Nevertheless, the widow’s son went on combing the Khan’s hair, and eating the cakes his mother had given him the while.

At last the Khan said, “What eatest thou?

And he answered, “Cakes kneaded of rice-flour and milk; such cakes do I eat.

And when the Khan asked for some to taste, he gave him one, and the Khan ate it. When the Khan had eaten the cake, he said, “The scent and the flavour of these cakes is good. How are they composed? Tell me.

The widow’s son answered, “My mother made them for me with milk of her own breast, and kneaded them with rice-flour.

When the Khan heard that, he said within himself, “How shall I put this youth to death, seeing he and I have both partaken of one mother’s milk? That were unnatural and unheard of.” Then said he aloud, “If that be so, I will not put thee to death this day; but only take an oath of thee that thou tell no man that I have ears like to asses’ ears. Shouldst thou, however, break thine oath, then, know that thou shalt surely be put to death.

Unto no man, O Khan,” swore the youth, “will I declare this thing. Neither unto my mother herself.” And having thanked the Khan for sparing his life he went his way.

Day after day, however, all the youths who went in to comb the Khan’s hair were put to death as before, and all the people wondered greatly why the widow’s son had been spared. Nevertheless, remembering the oath which he had given the Khan, he told no man how it had befallen for all their wondering and inquiring, nor even his own mother.

But as he continued thus keeping his own counsel, and telling no man the reason why the Khan killed all the other youths who combed his hair and spared him, the secret vexed his heart, nor could he stand against the oppression of his desire to speak it, so that he fell ill, and like to die. Nor were medicaments nor yet offerings in sacrifice of any avail to heal him of that sickness, though many Lamas were called to see him. At last a Lama came, who having felt his pulse said, “In this kind of sickness medicaments avail nothing; only tell what it is thou hast on thine heart, and as soon as thou shalt have told it, to whomsoever it may be, thou shalt be relieved, and be well again. Other remedy is there none.” Thus spoke the Lama.

Then all they that stood by the bed spoke to him, saying, “If it be that thou hast any thing on thy mind, as the Lama has said, even though it be the least matter, speak it now and recover. Of what good shall it be to thee to keep the secret if, after all, thou diest?

But neither so would he break his oath to the Khan. But at night when they were all gone, and his mother only was with him, and she urged him much, he told her, saying, “Of a truth have I a secret; but I have sworn to the Khan that I will tell it to no man, nor yet even to thee, my mother.

Then spoke his mother again, saying, “If this be so, then go out far from the habitations of men, and hiding thy face in a crack of the earth where the soil is parched for want of moisture; or else, in the hollow of an ancient tree, or in a narrow cleft of the everlasting rock, and speak it there.

And the youth listened to her word; and he went out far from the habitations of men till he came where there was a hole of a marmot in the ground. Putting his mouth into the hole he cried, “Our Khan, Daibang, has ears even like to the ears of an ass!” and he repeated the same four times, and was well again.

But the marmot living in the hole, had heard the words, and she repeated them to the echo, and the echo told them to the wind, and the wind brought them to the Khan.

So the Khan sent, and called the youth, even the widow’s son, before him, saying, “Charged I thee not that thou told no man this thing, and swarest thou not unto me that thou wouldst declare it to no man, nor even to thine own mother? How then hast thou gone and spoken it abroad?

But the youth answered, saying, “To no man either at home or abroad have I spoken the thing, O Khan!

How then came the words back to me unless it be that thou hast spoken them, seeing that none other knows the thing save thee?” again asked the Khan.

I know not,” replied the youth, “unless it be that through refraining of myself that I might keep the secret I fell ill, and when all medicaments and offerings of sacrifice failed, there came a Lama who said there was no remedy save that I should unburden that which oppressed my mind. Then to save my life, and yet not betray the Khan’s confidence, I spoke it in the hole of a marmot in the waste, far from the habitations of men.

Then when the Khan found he was so faithful and discreet he believed his word, and forbore to put him to death. Further he said to him, “Tell me, now, canst thou devise any means by which these asses’ ears may be concealed, so that I may go forth among my subjects like other Khans?

If the Khan would listen to the word of one so humble, even now a means of concealment is plain to my mind,” replied the youth.

And the Khan answered him, “Speak, and I will listen to what thou hast to advise.

The youth therefore spoke, saying, “O mighty Khan! Let now a high-fashioned cap be made to cover thine head, and let there be on either side lappets to the cap, covering the ears. Then shall all men when they see the Khan wearing such a cap deem it beseeming to wear such a cap likewise.” Thus the youth counselled the Khan.

And the Khan found the counsel good, and he made him a high-fashioned cap with lappets covering the ears; and when the ministers of state and the counsellors and nobles saw the Khan wearing such a cap, they made to themselves caps like unto it, and all men wore it, and it was known by the name of “the lappet cap.” But no man knew that the king’s ears were like to asses’ ears.

Furthermore, the Khan no longer had need to put to death the youths who combed his hair, and all the people rejoiced greatly. But for the youth, even the widow’s son, he made him steward over all his household, and whatsoever he did, he did with prudence and judgment, his mother advising him.

The Khan who put so many youths to death to save his own reputation did not deserve so good a counsel!” exclaimed the Khan.

And as he let these words escape him, the Siddhî-kür replied, “Forgetting his health, the Well-and-wise-walking Khan hath opened his lips.” And with the cry, “To escape out of this world is good!” he sped him through the air, swift out of sight.


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/40402/40402-h/40402-h.htm
 

Mita Komita

Veoma poznat
Moderator
Poruka
13.616
A otkud onda priča o hanu sa magarećim ušim kod Mongola, i posebnoj kapi koja nastaje kako bi sakrila to od naroda?
А одкуд монголи у пиротском крају?

Другим речима, народ и војска некад прелази велике раздаљине па науче свашта успут.
Ко је од кога узео је питање које нема дефинитиван одговор те ја стављам тапију да је све србско а други нек докажу да није :whistling:
 

Сребрена

Iskusan
Moderator
Poruka
6.907
Proučavaoci starina smatraju da je ova priča u grčki svet došla sa istoka, iz Azije. Po tradiciji, čuvena frigijska kapa upravo je tako i nastala, kako bi Mida sakrio magareće uši ispod nje. Primer na bisti:

Pogledajte prilog 615327
Није доказана икаква "традиција" да је Мида први који је понео такву капу на глави. Требало би проверити макар оно што је поуздано познато, напр. какава је била ратничка ношња у време Мидиног оца Гордија ?

..the first Gordias was a poor farmer from Macedonia who was the last descendant of the royal family of Bryges. When an eagle landed on the pole of his ox-cart, he interpreted it as a sign that he would one day become a king. ..The earliest mentions of the Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus:

"Phrygians, as Macedonians say, were called Bryges as long time as they were Europeans residing with Macedonians, but when they moved to Asia changed their name simultaneously with their homeland" Herodotus VII 73

И, морам да приметим, приказани пример Бога Атиса са фригијском капом није добра илустрација за капу која сакрива или имитира магареће уши. Те уши су свакако дугачке, а и , како ти рече "по традицији", увек су у пару.
На овом примеру постоји само "рог" и то један (ако је Мидина казна била да постане једнорог ?)

Уопште, те мекане капе на врху савијене као "рог" ношене су на Балкану много давно а и данас их има:
Напр. Орфеј



или околина Дубровника:


четнички војвода Дуле


и још, поводом саме капе са тим изразитим врхом, српске шубаре имају сличан тај крој, само се шиљак савије унутра и лепо сложи.


Илустрација капе која би требало да буде асоцијација на магареће уши (значи два комада и то дуга) пре би била ово:






..јер су уочљиви дуги и мекани "висуљци" у пару.
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Није доказана икаква "традиција" да је Мида први који је понео такву капу на глави.
Ne znam šta se čudiš kao da prvi put čuješ za tu tradiciju, kada si i sama o njoj pisala:

Магареће уши су само симбол који представља Гордијевог сина Миту(асиријски) одн Мидаса (грчки) , из племена Мушки, који столују у Гордиону и то је асоцијација на чувену фригијску капу и њенe висуљке.

О оваквој капи причам:
Međutim, s obzirom na širi kontekst tj. priču i o kapi mongolskog kana, rekao bih da je cela priča o samoj kapi dosta stara, tako da je nikako ne bih pojednostavio na običnu starogrčku asocijaciju na frigijsku kapu.

И, морам да приметим, приказани пример Бога Атиса са фригијском капом није добра илустрација за капу која сакрива или имитира магареће уши.
Kako je Atis frigijsko božanstvo, ni manje ni više no Kibelin muž, mislim da je predstava itekako dobra. To na bisti i jeste frigijska kapa.

Требало би проверити макар оно што је поуздано познато, напр. какава је била ратничка ношња у време Мидиног оца Гордија ?
Tako nešto nije moguće proveriti iz prostog razloga što je Midas bio legendarna ličnost, a ne istorijska. Treba razdvojiti istorijske ličnosti koje su nosile to ime, a kojih ima više, od legende koja postoji izvan vremena i pripada, prosto, neidentifikovanoj drevnoj prošlosti; nekim starim vremenima koja su prošla. Ako želiš govoriti o hronologiji, onda treba pričati vrlo jasno o tome kada i gde je priča prvi put zapisana, odnosno o njenoj starini (i generalno starosti Midinih legendi) i tek tako možemo identifikovati šta je bilo pre i posle, odnosno govoriti o vremenu pre najsigurnijih poznatih početaka ovih priča. Posebna konfuzija nastaje ako se više ličnosti istog ili sličnog imena stapaju u jednu; tako može dolaziti do (kao što i jeste, odista) sjedinjavanja prethomerske i posthomerske mitologije, reciimo. Aludiram na to da bi Gordije i Mida navodno trebalo da odgovaraju i epohi pre vremena Trojanskog rata, dakle razdoblju negde u čak II milenijumu pre naše ere, ali kod Homera i tradicije savremene njemu nema Mide ni u tragovima, što je (s obzirom na Frigiju) prilično iznenađujuće.

Što se tiče moje tvrdnje da bi korene trebalo tražiti možda čak i pre PIE vremena, ili svakako negde na orijentalnim prostranstvima, pominjem ovde da osim pomenute mongolske narodne priče imamo i jednu iz srednjeazijskog korpusa, zapisanu u Kirgiziji. Kralj oko jezera Isik-Kul u današnjem istočnom Kirgistanu imao je magareće uši.

Isik-kul.PNG


Another interesting version of the lake’s origin is the following legend. Once there lived a ruler named Ossoun. He was not an unusual human being, except that he had donkey ears giving away his mysterious origin. He hid them under various head garments, and killed every barber who cut his hair. He killed them all but one who spread the word about the ruler’s ears. And once he had done so, water gushed from everywhere and flooded everything and everybody in the settlement - the ruler, the barber and those who had not even heard of the donkey ears. The settlement is still there underwater - on the bottom of Issyk-Kul.

https://www.centralasia-travel.com/en/publication/issyk_kul_legends

Legends.PNG
 
Poslednja izmena:

Сребрена

Iskusan
Moderator
Poruka
6.907
Ne znam šta se čudiš kao da prvi put čuješ za tu tradiciju, kada si i sama o njoj pisala: "
Магареће уши су само симбол који представља Гордијевог сина Миту(асиријски) одн Мидаса (грчки) , из племена Мушки, који столују у Гордиону и то је асоцијација на чувену фригијску капу и њенe висуљке......О оваквој капи причам: ........
Славене, или твојој перфидности нема граница или не користиш ни разум ни очи током својих излагања.
Ти си написао да је капа УПРАВО настала тако што је Мида хтео да сакрије своје уши, што значи да је ју је он први ставио на главу јер нема легенди да је неко други у Фригији имао магареће уши. Шта ти је значило "по традицији"", то само ти знаш. Провери себе:

Proučavaoci starina smatraju da je ova priča u grčki svet došla sa istoka, iz Azije. Po tradiciji, čuvena frigijska kapa upravo je tako i nastala, kako bi Mida sakrio magareće uši ispod nje. Primer na bisti:
Добро је да си нашао тај мој стари пост да људи упореде на лицу места и виде још једном твоју овешталу навику да подмећеш људима оно што би ти желео да су казали.
У мом старом посту нема помена традиције нити ко је измислип капу него лепо пише да су магареће (заиста добра) асоцијација на фригијску капу и њене висуљке.

je Atis frigijsko božanstvo, ni manje ni više no Kibelin muž, mislim da je predstava itekako dobra. To na bisti i jeste frigijska kapa.
Грешиш као и обично.
И на тараби кад пише назив полног женског органа, нико ко има мозак не иде да тарабу хебе.

Како је представљена капа на бисти Атисовој, могла би да скрива само рог једнорога . Ја не спорим личност Бога Атиса, него кажем да си нашао лош пример. Илустрације у мом претходном посту и у мом старом посту са друге теме боље показују оно што си ти хтео да кажеш. отварајући помпезно ову тему о "магарећим ушима".


Упорреди још једанпут и размисли добро на којој илустрацији капа личи на магареће уши а на којој не ?




]


Ево још из тог мог старог поста:




 
Poslednja izmena:

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Славене, или твојој перфидности нема граница или не користиш ни разум ни очи током својих излагања.
Ти си написао да је капа УПРАВО настала тако што је Мида хтео да сакрије своје уши, што значи да је ју је он први ставио на главу јер нема легенди да је неко други у Фригији имао магареће уши. Шта ти је значило "по традицији"", то само ти знаш. Провери себе:


Добро је да си нашао тај мој стари пост да људи упореде на лицу места и виде још једном твоју овешталу навику да подмећеш људима оно што би ти желео да су казали.
У мом старом посту нема помена традиције нити ко је измислип капу него лепо пише да су магареће (заиста добра) асоцијација на фригијску капу и њене висуљке.
Nisam napisao da je UPRAVO nastala, već da po tradiciji ima tako jedna priča.

Prema priči Mida je kod te zgode zamislio frigijsku kapu, koja pokriva uši, a još i danas nose ovaku kapu brodari, ribari uopće ljudi nižih slojeva u južnim krajevima Europe.
http://gimnazija-sb.com/portal/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/ovidije_metamorfoze.pdf

Citat sam postavio da ti ukažem na to da si i sama očigledno svesna te asocijacije, inače sam pomislio da ne bi spominjala uopšte frigijsku kapu. Ali izgleda da sam pogrešio? Šta je tvoj komentar bio kada si pominjala asocijaciju...samostalno promišljanje, nevezano za tradiciju? :think:

Грешиш као и обично.
И на тараби кад пише назив полног женског органа, нико ко има мозак не иде да тарабу хебе.

Како је представљена капа на бисти Атисовој, могла би да скрива само рог једнорога . Ја не спорим личност Бога Атиса, него кажем да си нашао лош пример. Илустрације у мом претходном посту и у мом старом посту са друге теме боље показују оно што си ти хтео да кажеш. отварајући помпезно ову тему о "магарећим ушима".
Poenta fotografije biste bila jeda prikaže neki primer frigijske kape. Šta može da skriva predstava na statui, nebitno je. Ako to nije primer frigijske kape, ja sam pogrešio; ako sam pogrešio, ispravi me umesto da se prosto ljutiš i pokaži bolje primere frigijske kape, odnosno šta je predstavljeno na toj bisti na Atisovoj glavi.
 
Poslednja izmena:

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Dobar rad na ovu temu, o prvim predstavama kralja Mide u istoriji (Atika, V stoleće pre naše ere; grafičke predstave na vazama): MILLER, M. (1988). MIDAS AS THE GREAT KING IN ATTIC FIFTH-CENTURY VASE-PAINTING. Antike Kunst, 31(2), 79-89.

Napomenu 15 (str. 81) u kojoj se elaboriše nešto detaljnije kada pominju Midine magareće uši:

The question of the source or cause of the iconographic/narrative change from human to ass's ears remains unsolved. It also bothered the people of antiquity. F. Bömer concluded that up to Ovid's time there was no single tradition of how or why Midas got his ass's ears: P. Ovidius Naso. Metamorphosen X-XI (1980) 261f. For some of the many (later) ancient explanations, see: Scholia on Aristophanes, Ploutos 287, and Klearchos of Soloi, C. Müller, Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum 2 (1878) 305 no. 6 = Athenaios 12, 516 b. S. Eitrem sought an explanation in a theriomorphic origin for Midas, with the ass's ears particularly appropriate for a follower of Dionysos, RE 15, 1 (1932) 1528 s.v. Midas; followed by Schefold I, 78. Brommer III, 56f., suggested that the idea of Midas having ass's ears was inspired by a misunderstanding of the Phrygian cap when he was first given Oriental dress in the mid fifth century B.C.; followed by Schefold II, 173. Such a misunderstanding of the 'Phrygian cap' is not otherwise paralleled, in spite of its common appearance in Attic vase-painting; at this late date we would not expect that kind of iconographic error to occur. Most recently, L. E. Roller has suggested that Midas, with his ass's ears, was a 'caricature of Silenos' as part of the Attic tendency to portray the Phrygian king as a ridiculous figure: op. c. (supra note 1) 308; op.c. (supra note 2) 263. Yet in other respects the portrayal of Midas on these vases is not ridiculous.

Mida1.PNG
Mida2.PNG
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Poenta fotografije biste bila jeda prikaže neki primer frigijske kape. Šta može da skriva predstava na statui, nebitno je. Ako to nije primer frigijske kape, ja sam pogrešio; ako sam pogrešio, ispravi me umesto da se prosto ljutiš i pokaži bolje primere frigijske kape, odnosno šta je predstavljeno na toj bisti na Atisovoj glavi.
How to Read Greek Vases, pp. 167. Primer frigijske kape:
Frigij2.PNG

cap.png


:kafa:
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Prilikom proučavanja ovih mitova, nezaobilazan je Jovan Cec (Ἰωάννης Τζέτζης, Iōánnēs Tzétzēs), veliki romejski pesnik i gramatičar iz XII stoleća, te proučavalac starina (od Homera pa na dalje). Njegovo najčuvenije delo je „Knjiga istorija”, danas poznatije pod imenom „Hiljade” (po broju redova iz editio princeps), prava mala enciklopedija antičkog sveta. Ono je prevedeno na engleski jezik i dostupno u celini: https://www.theoi.com/Text/TzetzesChiliades1.html

U Knjigama istorija Cec se bavio i Midom i carem Trajanom, u moru tema koje je obradio. Kralj Mida zauzima bukvalno drugu glavu prve knjige.

O MIDI

Midas, the son of Gordias, was a king of the Phrygians,
He worshipped gold beyond the human nature.
According to the myths, he made a bitter wish
So everything he held would be turned into gold.
Every food he would eat, would be made out of gold,
As a consequence he dies hungry because of his golden famine.
Some others, though, have written that he didn’t die.
Instead, he drove his chariot and its anchor held him, as the oracles had said.
He founded the Galatian city of Ankara across the river Halys.
This way the famine and his destiny have been avoided.
This Midas has been said to have his ears like donkey’s.
From what I’ve said, everything must be clear about Midas.

He worshipped gain and money; he was very greedy.
He made his stomach hurt by selling all the food
Just like Vespasian did with the excrement of the horses
Although, he blamed Titus a lot for this; he was his son.
He used to say to him: “Titus, my dearest son,
This is the gold of excrement, try, smell its odour.”
This is how Midas was, as already mentioned before,
According to these myths created in this way.
Later he founded Ankara, a city with lots of food.
His ears were, as I said, like those donkeys have.
This means he was keen on hearing or just with very large ears
Or even that he had around him many spies.
Donkeys, Aristotle said, have very sharp hearing.
There is a Phrygian village named “donkey’s ears”.
It was inhabited by thieves. Midas had conquered it.
Maybe that’s why the myth says Midas had donkey’s ears.


The Ankara mentioned above was situated in Galatia.
It’s been said it was built by Octavian, the Caesar of the Romans.
Octavian killed Deiotarus, the tetrarch of Galatia.
It was not due to the iron anchor of Midas’ chariot
That Ankara was named this way, but because it is situated
Between the Asiatic and the Pontic seas.

mida23.PNG

mida45.PNG


Ovde vidimo primere Cecovih pokušaja razjašnjenja mitova njihovom racionalizacijom. Po šablonu, Cec prenosi priče i onda traži neka objašnjenja za čudne stvari u njima. Vezano za Midine uši, Cec nudi sledeće opcije:
* Mida je imao vrlo velike uši
* Mida je imao dobar sluh (Aristotel tvrdi da magarci imaju izuzetno dobar sluh)
* Mida je imao puno špijuna
* Postoji u Frigiji jedno selo odmetnika koje se zove Magareće uši, a koje je Mida pokorio.
 
Poslednja izmena:

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Gotovo kao odgovarajući, druga glava Cecove druge knjige tiče se upravo cara Trajana:

O TRAJANU I PODIZANJU MOSTA NA DUNAVU

Trajan, being neither an Italian nor a Greek inhabitant of Italy,
But being an Iberian of a different ethnicity, a commander in Germania,
Of such a kind, becomes king of the Romans.
After the rule and voluntary death of Nero,
And Domitian’s slaughter by Stephan,
There is Nerva, an old man, entirely good in his manners,
Whom the Romans choose for their king.
Who, having surpassed both a lifetime and a third part of a lifetime
And a nine day period, in which he was weak from old age,
Both vomiting and disregarding all food,
Having judged the safety of the commonwealth over any relatives,
He dismisses all of his relatives, he dismisses even his acquaintances.
And having convened the entire Senate of the Romans,
It is Trajan, then being towards Germany,
Whom he distinctly proclaims as autocrat of Rome,
Shouting above the citadel these words exactly:
“For the good fortune of the Senate and people of the Romans
And of myself, I am making Trajan autocrat.”
And immediately, he sent a letter to Germania for Trajan,
“May the Danaans pay for my tears with your arrows.”
And upon coming to Rome a king, Trajan, son of Nerva,
He was loved as a good man for all of the Romans together.
After doing many useful things for Roman cities,
And spending some amount of time around Rome,
He campaigns against Decebalus, the king of the Dacians,
Who rebelled while keeping the payments due to the Romans,
Covering up the treasuries fronting the Strei River.
But having come first to the Danube, Trajan immediately
Carried the Romans with vessels across to the Dacians;
The other part of them was facing the land just opposite.
Wherefore he makes the bridge for access.
The placing of the bridge lies in some such a way:
There are twenty large solid square stones,
With a width of sixty feet, and with regard to the height, including the foundations,
They reach one hundred fifty feet.
For one hundred and seventy feet, each stone
Stands apart from one another, and they are united by arches.
In this way Trajan bridged the Danube.
After both making the entirety of Dacia under the Romans
And founding cities in it, he turns towards Rome,
Bringing the head of Decebalus with captives,
And for these things there was a triumph with all of the Romans
In this way, Trajan bridged the Danube;
And Hadrian, being a son of Hadrian the son of Afer,
Having formed marital connections to Trajan in the sister of Trajan,
Destroyed the bridge once he received the kingdom of the Romans,
Lest it be a course for the Dacians against the Mysians.
Hadrian even kills Apollodorus the bridge maker,
Thereby turning out, by nature, to be a malice bearing king, even if he was of those who were fond of learning.
Dio Cassius has written this story,
And many other men chronicling notable things.
Even Theophilus recalls this bridge on the Danube
He himself being fond of his comrades in the construction of harbours,
And in the foundations by the sea,
Being a proconsul, a patrician, a quaestor,
And a prefect of this royal city,
Saying that Apollodorus bridged the Danube,
After framing a small chamber into the fore foundations,
So that there was a length with these things of one hundred and twenty feet,
And eighty for the width. Men say these things.

They even relate that Trajan had the ears of a he-goat:

Which I myself have not found written in writings:
Rather from hearsay alone, by asking some people directly;
For either the man was salacious after the manner of the goats themselves,
And would intelligently pursue even such sexual mingling,
Or, by campaigning against enemies down from inaccessible places,
And by only giving ear to enemies that meet Rome.

For a goat delights in cliffs and inaccessible places.

https://www.theoi.com/Text/TzetzesChiliades2.html

cec.PNG


Šta je ključno, ovde? To što Cec traži u pisanim izvorima i nigde ne pronalazi; dakle u Cecovo vreme (dinastija Komnena) još uvek tradicija o tome da je to car Trajan nigde nije bila zapisana (ili barem nigde znamenitije) već se primarno prenosila usmenim putem; odnosno, kako Cec kaže, glasina koju je čuo lično od ljudi.

E sada, kako je došlo do toga da je Trajan poprimio neke Midine priče...neobično mi je da Cec nije primetio uopšte, ili barem nije uvideo za bitno da komentariše. Što se tiče našeg cara Trojana, verujem da je Veselin Čajkanović verovatno bio na dobrom putu kada je pretpostavio da se u vremena Romejskog carstva ova priča moguće raširila i među (Južne) Slovene. Kod slovenskih naroda, koji su imali svog boga Triglava, trojnoga, priča o Trajanu (istorijskom rimskom caru koji je drevnim pra-Slovenima bio najverovatnije malo ili nimalo poznat pre doseljavanja na Balkansko poluostrvo) preuzela je oblik domaćeg Trojana, drevnog paganskog slovenskog htonskog božanstva.

Cecova racionalizacija je da je Trajan bio ili vrlo seksualno pohotan ili uspešan u ratovima protiv neprijatelja Rima. :mrgreen:
 
Poslednja izmena od moderatora:

Mita Komita

Veoma poznat
Moderator
Poruka
13.616
Напоменух у неколико наврата да се закључци своде на шпекулације. С тим у вези, и ја имам своју:
Концензус стручњака је да су (барем неки) становници Балканског полуострва дошли из Мале Азије. У Једном од тамошњег народа, Мушки, је некад био нашироко познат и цењен краљ Мита. Многи народи дају имена синовима по локалним јунацима а посебно краљевима. Данас на пример Душан, Стефан, Немања међу Србима. До пре другог светског рата сваки пети мушкарац у јужној Србији се звао Мита (многи погрешно мисле да је у питању надимак). Народ носи са собом старе приче и легенде. По потреби се врше корекције. На пример, код приче о Мити је најбитније што је он владар, те је логично да у доба владавине цара Трајана он преузме улогу.
Обрни, окрени, све је то Србско.
Пироћанци су прави Срби :andjeo:
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Иначе краљу Мидасу је право име Мита а народ му се звао Мушки. То пише у персијским изворима.
Напоменух у неколико наврата да се закључци своде на шпекулације. С тим у вези, и ја имам своју:
Концензус стручњака је да су (барем неки) становници Балканског полуострва дошли из Мале Азије. У Једном од тамошњег народа, Мушки, је некад био нашироко познат и цењен краљ Мита. Многи народи дају имена синовима по локалним јунацима а посебно краљевима. Данас на пример Душан, Стефан, Немања међу Србима. До пре другог светског рата сваки пети мушкарац у јужној Србији се звао Мита (многи погрешно мисле да је у питању надимак). Народ носи са собом старе приче и легенде. По потреби се врше корекције. На пример, код приче о Мити је најбитније што је он владар, те је логично да у доба владавине цара Трајана он преузме улогу.
Обрни, окрени, све је то Србско.
Пироћанци су прави Срби :andjeo:
Znam da postoji generalno, manje-više koncenzus oko toga da su Midas i Mita jedna te ista ličnost, ali meni tu neke stvari nisu baš najjasnije...kako se prelazi preko toliko prostranog geografskog područja; Frigija i severoistočni obronci Anatolije, gde nalazimo taj Mitin narod, izuzetno je prostrano područje. Eventualno bi bilo da je istorijski Mida (VIII i VII stoleća pre naše ere) vladao prostranim carstvom srednje i istočne Male Azije... :think:

S jedne strane Frigija, a sa druge se graniči sa Urartuom i ima pristup Mesopotamiji. U istoriji, poznajemo i Frigijce i Muške, sa različitim otadžbinam. Istorija je, izgleda, progutala to veliko i etnički složeno carstvo, i ostali su samo obronci (ono što je poznato Asircima sa jedne strane, i Grcima sa druge)? :confused:
 
Poslednja izmena:

Mita Komita

Veoma poznat
Moderator
Poruka
13.616
Znam da postoji generalno, manje-više koncenzus oko toga da su Midas i Mita jedna te ista ličnost, ali meni tu neke stvari nisu baš najjasnije...kako se prelazi preko toliko prostranog geografskog područja; Frigija i severoistočni obronci Anatolije, gde nalazimo taj Mitin narod, izuzetno je prostrano područje. Eventualno bi bilo da je istorijski Mida (VIII i VII stoleća pre naše ere) vladao prostranim carstvom srednje i istočne Male Azije... :think:

S jedne strane Frigija, a sa druge se graniči sa Urartuom i ima pristup Mesopotamiji. U istoriji, poznajemo i Frigijce i Muške, sa različitim otadžbinam. Istorija je, izgleda, progutala to veliko i etnički složeno carstvo, i ostali su samo obronci (ono što je poznato Asircima sa jedne strane, i Grcima sa druge)? :confused:
на исти начин како римски император прелази из Британије у Сирију.
 

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
на исти начин како римски император прелази из Британије у Сирију.
Hajde da vidimo šta piše u samim izvorima...malčice si pogrešio, ali ništa strašno bio si dosta blizu; izvori su asirski, a ne persijski. Zbirka izvora je RIMA (Royal Inscriptions of Mesopotamia Assyrian Period). Prevedeni su svi asirski vladarski natpisi na engleski i dostupni na internetu. Evo prvog toma, za period od 1114. do 859. godine pre naše ere: https://archive.org/details/AssyrianRulersOfTheEarlyFirstMillenniumBc11114-859Bc/

Tu se prvi put Muški spominju, za vlade Tiglat-Pilesara I (1114-1076. god. p. n. e.) na 14. stranici:

Asirski natpis (RIMA 2, A.0.87.1; redovi 62-88):

i-na šur-ru LUGAL-ti-ia 20 LIM LU. MES KUR muš-ka-a-ia.MES Ù 5 LUGAL. MES-ni-šu-nu sa 50 MU.MEŠ KUR al-zi ù KUR pu-ru-lum-zi na-a-áš GUN ù ma-da-at-te ša áa-šur EN-ia is-ba-tu-ni LUGAL ia-um-ma i-na tam-ha-ri GABA-su-nu ia-a ú-né-hu a-na da-na-ni-šu-nu it-ka-lu-ma ur-du-ni KUR kat-mu-hi is-ba-tu i-na GÚJukul-ti áa-šur EN-ia GIŠ.GIGIR.MEŠ ù qu-ra-di-ia.MEš lul-te-šìr EGIR-A ul ú-qi KUR ka-si-ia-ra A.ŠÀ nam-ra-si iu-u ab-bal-kit it-ti 20 LIM ÉRIN.MES muq-tab-li-su-nu ù 5 LUGAL. MEŠ-SW-RTW i-na KUR kat-mu-hi lu al-ta-na-an a-bi-ik-ta-su-nu lu áš-kun šal-ma-at qu-ra-di-šu-nu i-na mit-hu-us tu-ša-ri ki-ma ra-hi-si lu-ke-mir ÚŠ.MEs-šu-nu hur-ri ù ba-ma-a-te sa KUR-/ lu ú-šèr-di SAG.DU.MEš-šu-nu lu-na-ki-sa i-da-at URU.MEŠ-IW-RTW ki-ma ka-re-e lu-še-pi-ik šal-la-su-nu bu-ša-šu-nu nam-kur-šu-nu a-na la-a mi-na ú-še-sa-a 6 LIM si-te-et um-ma-na-te-šu-nu sa i-na pa-an GIS.TUKUL.MEŠ-IÛF Ìp-pár-ŠÌ-du GÌR.MEŠ-/Í7 is-ba-tu al-qa-šu-nu-ti-ma a-na UN.MEŠ KUR-ti-ia am-nu-šu-nu-ti

Engleski prevod:

In my accession year: 20,000 Mušku with their five kings, who had held for 50 years the lands Alzu (i 65) and Purulumzu — bearers of tribute and tithe to the god Aššur, my lord — (the Mušku), whom no king had ever repelled in battle, being confident of their strength they came down (and) (i 70) captured the land Katmuhu. With the support of the god Aššur, my lord, I put my chariotry and army in readiness (and), not waiting for my rear guard, I traversed the rough terrain of Mount Kašiiari. I fought with their 20,000 men-at-arms (i 75) and five kings in the land Katmuhu. I brought about their defeat. Like a storm demon I piled up the corpses of their warriors on the battlefield (and) made their blood flow into the hollows (i 80) and plains of the mountains. I cut off their heads (and) stacked them like grain piles around their cities. I brought out their booty, property, (and) possessions without number. I took (i 85) the remaining 6,000 of their troops who had fled from my weapons (and) submitted to me and regarded them as people of my land.

Dakle, priča ide da je u godini stupanja na vlast (dakle oko 1114. godine pre naše ere) ratovalo protiv Asiraca 20.000 Mušku vojnika, kojima je vladalo 5 različitih kraljeva. Tiglat-Pilesar kaže da su oni 50 godina držali zemlje između Alzu i Purulumzu. Takođe tvrdi da nikada nisu bili poraženi; uspeo je uz pomoć kočije da ih savlada i pobedi u Katmuhu. Tiglat-Pilesar se hvali da im je svima poskidao glave i kao žito zasadio oko gradova. Preživelo svega boraca naroda Mušku 6.000 i priznalo njegovu vlast.

Kaže se da su te teritorije držali pedeset leta, što će reći za vreme vlasti Ašur-dana I (1179-1133), jer ta računica pada u negde 1159. godine pre naše ere (sam ovaj natpis nastao 6. godine vlasti Tiglat-Pilesara). Iz drugih izvorima znamo da je Katmuhu bila izvan domašaja vlasti Asiraca, ali izgleda da su Mušku ovde umešali svoje prste, možda kao katmuški štićenici.

Planine Kašijari kod kojih se odigrala ova velika bitka krajem XII stoleća stare ere su današnji turski Tur Abdin, duž istočne granice sa Sirijom i prema Iraku (danas je taj kraj video ponovo nešto akcije; inače strateški bitno mesto jer tuda prolazi put koji se spaja sa Tigrom i ostvaruje kontakt Mesopotamije sa severnim prostranstvima).

saved.jpg


Reljef na kome vidimo Tiglat-Pilesara I:

Tiglat.png
 
Poslednja izmena:

Slaven777

Legenda
Poruka
51.868
Natpis A.0.87.1 sadrži još nešto podataka; redovi 18-20:

18) [...] iaì-bi-ia i-na GišJtukuP-ti áa-^šur ENIfifl 12 RLIM~1 ÉRIN.HI.A.MEŠ KUR mUŠ-kÌ,MEŠ DAGAL.MEŠ
19) [akšud (...) sītēt ÉRIN.ME]š-te-šu-nu as-su-ha a-na ^qé-reb kurī-ti-ia ú-še-rì-da
20) [... a-p]él a-na ^mi-sir KUR"I-ti-ia ú-te-er

my father, with the support of the god Aššur, my lord, [I defeated] 12,000 troops of the extensive Mušku. [The remaining] troops I uprooted (and) brought down into my land. (Thus) I became lord of [the entire land of the Mušku] (and) added (it) to the borders of my land.


Pitanje je u vezi prve stavke. Da li se to odnosi na potpuno istu pobedu (uz relativnu brojku Mušku vojnika koja je slična...20 i 12 hiljada) ili je ovde reč o nekom njihovom novom sukobu sa Asircima.

Kako bilo, po ovome, preživeli Mušku su bili deportovani i raseljeni po carstvu, da bi se lakše asimilovali odnosno onemogućila njihova (nova?) oružana pobuna. Njihova je zemlja priključena Asiriji. Ove teritorije, gledajući po geografiji asirskih pohoda na severnim stranama, daleko su od naše Frigije. :think:
 
Poslednja izmena:

Сребрена

Iskusan
Moderator
Poruka
6.907
Nisam napisao da je UPRAVO nastala, već da po tradiciji ima tako jedna priča.
Јеси. Види поново, понављам га стално док не схватиш, шта си написао:

Proučavaoci starina smatraju da je ova priča u grčki svet došla sa istoka, iz Azije. Po tradiciji, čuvena frigijska kapa upravo je tako i nastala, kako bi Mida sakrio magareće uši ispod nje. Primer na bisti:
Poenta fotografije biste bila jeda prikaže neki primer frigijske kape. Šta može da skriva predstava na statui, nebitno je. Ako to nije primer frigijske kape, ja sam pogrešio; ako sam pogrešio, ispravi me umesto da se prosto ljutiš i pokaži bolje primere frigijske kape, odnosno šta je predstavljeno na toj bisti na Atisovoj glavi.
Већ јесам и то бар два пута.
 

Top
  Blokirali ste reklame
Dragi prijatelju, nemojte da blokirate reklame - isključite Ad Blocker na Forumu, jer će tako mesto vaših susreta na Krstarici ostati besplatno za korišćenje.