NickFreak
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Пише на енглеском ! Онда пише други део Ал Масуди где наводи Волшке Бугаре и Хазаре ксо Турке.
А ја сам ти поставио човека који са арапског преводи.
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Историја Сакалиба
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А ја сам ти поставио човека који са арапског преводи.
NickFreak
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То мораш њега да питаш.
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Pa ne tvrdi on da me je nešto demantovao, no ti?
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Pa sa kog su to jezika prevodili Stoun i onaj drugi ako nije sa arapskog?
NickFreak
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Више пута само је добар културан лик и неће да се свађа.
А и кад то уради обавезно му лајкујеш пост или закукаш нешто.
Па онда човек мора да се правда да није тебе нишаанио.
Међутим и кад стварно није једноставно нечиста савест се увек осећа прозваном.
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??? To je odgovor na pitanje sa kog su jezika prevodili nego sa arapskog?
NickFreak
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Не разумем те добро?
Не причаш јасно не разумем тачно о чему говориш па не могу да ти одговорим.
Khal Drogo
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На другој теми (о Хазарима) сам се осврнуо на рукопис арапског историчара ал-Масудија (896.-956.године) на којег смо се већ осврнули на овој теми и који у поглављима посвећеним Хазарима (овдје стр 121-124) извјештава да су у Хазарском каганату имали своје магистрате. А у самој хазарској пријестолници држали су се строгог обичаја да имају седам судија, двоје за муслимане, двоје за Хазаре, који своје одлуке доносе у складу са Тором, двоје за хришћане, који доносе своје према јеванђељима и један за Сакалибе, Русе и друге пагане. Овај посљедњи судија поштује паганске природне законе, који су утемељени на здравом разуму.
Па оно ко велим није лоше наведено поменути и на овој теми о Сакалибима.
Па оно ко велим није лоше наведено поменути и на овој теми о Сакалибима.
NickFreak
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И Хрвате!
NickFreak
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Jedna fusnotica (br. 18) iz knjige Stefana Brinka (Thralldom):
The Arabic word Saqāliba (or Sakāliba) is a Byzantine loanword, a corruption of Greek Σκλαβηvoί sklavênoí, shortened to Σκλάβoι sklávoi “Slavs” (see Kahane and Kahane 1962, Nazmi 1998 p. 74, Epstein 2001 p. 18, Pohl 2013, Zeuske 2018 pp. 51–52). The semantics are very complex: it can in the Arabic sources denote slaves, especially white slaves, but also Slavs, or Volga Bulghars, mercenaries, and even white men and western Europeans, as discussed during a Near Eastern and Islamic Studies seminar by Professor Eduard Mühle, Münster (“The Perception of Slavs/Saqaliba in Arabic Sources of the 9th–12th Centuries”) at the Institute of Advanced Studies, Princeton, November 22, 2017. Standard lexica have: “the designation in mediaeval Islamic sources for the Slavs and other fair-haired, ruddy-complexioned peoples of Northern Europe” (EOI 8 p. 872), and “the Slavs and other fair-haired, ruddy-complexioned peoples of northern Europe; ethnic groups of central or eastern Europe; white slaves of European origin; Germanic tribes” (EOI Gloss. and Index p. 308). For an authoritative discussion of Sakāliba, especially the difficulties of placing these people at a geographical location, see P. B. Golden in EOI 8 pp. 872–878. See also Nazmi 1998 pp. 74–97, Mishin 1998, and Watson 2001.
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Ајде ти прочитај по неки пост на теми да не би било понављања.
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Evo ovde i pune odrednice iz Islamske enciklopedije:
AL-ṢAḲĀLIBA, sing. Ṣaḳlabī, Ṣiḳlabī, the designation in mediaeval Islamic sources for the Slavs and other fair-haired, ruddy-complexioned peoples of Northern Europe (see A.Z. Velidi Togan, Die Schwerter der Germanen, 19-38).
1. The Ṣaḳāliba of Northern and Eastern Europe.
The actual name was a borrowing from Middle Greek Σλάβος, "Slav." This, in turn, is to be connected with the self-designation of the Slavs, Slověne (cf. the Rus' usage Slověne, Slovyane, Sloven'ski̊y yazi̊k "Slavs", "Slavic nation" in the Povest' vremyanni̊k͟h let, in PSRL, i, 5-6, 28, Mod. Russ. Slavyane, Ukr. Slov'yani, Pol. Slowianie, Czech. Slované, Bulg. Slavyani, etc.). This latter form is reflected in the Σκλαβηνοί, Σκλαυηνοί/Sclaveni (sing. Σκλαβηνός: *Slavěn-in < *Slověn-in), the Byzantino-Latin rendering of this collective name of the Slavs. It also was used to denote the central-southern grouping of Slavic tribes by 6th7th century Byzantine (e.g. Procopius and Theophylactus of Simocatta) and Latinophone authors (e.g. Jordanes).
Due to the large numbers of slaves that came to Western Europe from the Slavic lands, the ethnonym "Slav" came to denote "slave" (< M. Eng. sclave, cf. French esclave, Ital. schiavo, Germ. Sklave, Mod. Greek Σκλάβος) in a number of European languages (see comments of Menges, Outline, 11-12; Kupfer and Lewicki, Źródła hebrajskie, 29, n. 2). A reflection of this semantic development can be seen in the Hispano-Arabic use of this term to designate, at first, Slavic slaves brought to Spain (where their role was analogous to that of the Turkic g͟hilmān of the rival 'Abbāssids) and subsequently all foreign slaves in Spanish Umayyad service [see 3. below].
Although there was some ambiguity in the Arabic usage of this term, its initial meaning was undoubtedly "Slav". Early on, however, it spread to neighbouring peoples as well. Thus the early 3rd/9th century polymath al-Khʷārazmī (Ṣurāt al-Arḍ, ed. Mzik, 105) speaks of the "country of Gharmāniyā, which is the land of the Saḳāliba." Ibn Faḍlān, who journeyed to Volga Bulg͟haria in 309-10/921-2 (the subject population of which included, in addition to various Turkic groups, Finno-Ugrian and other northern peoples), termed the Bulg͟hār ruler "King of the Saḳāliba" (see Togan, Ibn Faḍlān's Reisebericht).
The Arab accounts derive the eponymous Saḳlab from Mād͟hāy b. Yāfit͟h (al-Mas'ūdī, Ibrāhīm b. Ya'ḳūb) or 'Ūd͟jān b. Yāfit͟h. Al-Ḳazwīnī (Āt͟hār, 614), however, derives him from the descendants of Līṭ b. Kalīk͟hīm b. Yūnān b. Yāfit͟h and presents him as the brother of Rūm, Arman and Firand͟j. According to the tale preserved in the anonymous Mud͟jmal al-tawārīk͟h, 103-4, Saḳlab's father, whose mother died immediately after his birth, was raised on dog milk and developed a canine disposition. His son was called "Ṣaḳlab" (hence the popular etymology found in Gardīzī who derives this name from Sag-lābī < Pers. sag "dog"). Later, as each of Yāfit͟h's children acquired a land of their own, Ṣaḳlab struggled with Rūs, Kimārī and Khazar for possession of a territory, but was defeated. He was thus obliged to make his home in the north. This homeland of the Ṣaḳāliba is described as very cold, with homes built underground and heated by steam, a theme found in a number of the detailed descriptions in the Islamic geographical literature dealing with the Ṣaḳāliba lands. Gardīzī, in his tale of Ki̊rg͟hi̊z (Khirk͟hīz) origins, relates that the leader of the Khirk͟hīz "was from the mass of the Ṣaḳlābs". Having killed a Byzantine envoy, he was forced to flee to the Khazars, Bas͟hd͟jirts and Toḳuz Og͟huz. There he was joined by other Ṣaḳāliba. Gardīzī concludes that this is why "the features and traits of the Ṣaḳlābs are to be found among the Khirk͟hīz (such as) reddishness of hair and whiteness of skin" (tr. Martinez, 124-6, ed. Barthold, 28-9). This constitutes one of several indications of the presence of an ancient Europoid strain among the Ki̊rg͟hi̊z. It also shows the close association, in the Islamic geographical literature, of a certain fair-haired, ruddy complexioned population type of Eurasia with the Slavs.
The later Perso-Islamic historical tradition, in a notice of dubious historicity, mentions a "pass of the Khazars and Ṣaḳāliba" in connection with the activities of the Sāsānid Djāmāsp, who briefly ruled Persia 496-8. These and other notices purporting to record their presence in the north Caucasian zone in the early decades of Islam (e.g. Bal'amī) are almost certainly anachronistic. Paradoxically, we are probably on surer ground with references to Slavs that had been transplanted to Asia Minor or were serving in Byzantine forces that might have had contact with the Arabs as early as the decades preceding the advent of Islam. The earliest evidence for Arabo-Slavic contacts is found in the Byzantine sources. The 10th century chronographer Theophanes, ed. de Boor, i, 348, notes that s.a. 6156/664-5, some 5,000 Σκλαυινοί living on "Roman" territory defected to the Umayyad commander 'Abd al-Raḥmān b. Khālid (ὁ Ἀβδεραχµάν, ὁ τοῦ Χαλέδου), going with him to Syria and settling in the village of Seleucobolus in the region of Apamea. During the caliphate of 'Abd al-Malik (Άβιμέλεχ), s.a. 6184/692-3, Νέβουλος, the commander of a force of 30,000 men that had been recruited from the Slavs settled in Asia Minor, was bribed by the Arabs and together with 20,000 of his men came over to the Arab side. The Byzantine Emperor Justinian II (685-95, 705-11) slaughtered the remaining Slavs at Leucate (Theophanes, i, 365-6).
The oldest reference in Arab writings, however, is found in the works of al-Ak͟htal (d. 91/710 [q.v.]), a Christian poet of the Tag͟hlib tribe who was one of the favourites of 'Abd al-Malik. In one of his poems he makes a brief reference to the "throng of reddish Ṣaḳāliba" d͟jam'at al-Ṣaḳāliba al-ṣuhb, see text and discussion in Lewicki, Źródła arabskie, i, 6 ff., and also his Swiat, 339). Mention is made of the Ṣaḳāliba by Yazīd b. al-Muhallab, a one-time governor of Khurāsān and then rebel against caliphal authority [see MUHALLABIDS], in a speech given on the eve of his final and fatal encounter with the Umayyads. This took place in 102/720, and his remarks were preserved in a collection of notable addresses by Ibn 'Abd Rabbihi (see Lewicki, Un temoignage arabe, 319-31). The Ṣaḳāliba noted here were, in all likelihood, one or another of the diasporan Slavic groupings that were either serving in the Byzantine forces or living as transplanted colonists in Asia Minor. This notice is important in that it comes directly from a contemporary. Direct contact with the Slavic lands, however, took place only after the Arabs had secured Khʷārazm in the early 8th century (see Lewicki, Swiat, 326-7), and it became one of the principal entrepôts for commerce with eastern and northern Europe.
The later historian al-Ya'ḳūbī, Ta'rīk͟h, ii, 359, 360, mentions a "city of the Ṣaḳāliba" s.a. 96/714-5 and 98/716-7 which Maslama b. 'Abd al-Malik [q.v.] conquered in 98/716-7 in his campaign against Constantinople. It is unclear whether this Slavic urban settlement is to be sought in Asia Minor or in the Balkans, although the former seems more likely. Several decades later, in a different theatre of operations, the Umayyad commander and future caliph Marwān b. Muḥammad, in 120/737 made a daring advance into Khazar territory, capturing the city of al-Bayḍa' (probably Sarkel on the Don). Proceeding further, as we learn from the account of Ibn A't͟ham al-Kūfī (viii, 71-2, see also Togan, Reisebericht, 295 ff.), he "attacked the Ṣaḳāliba and the various infidels who lived beyond them", taking prisoner some 20,000 families. Marwān continued his advance and made camp on the "River of the Slavs" (nahr al-Ṣaḳāliba). In this region, he succeeded in capturing the Khazar Kag͟han and compelled him to embrace Islam. Al-Balād͟hurī, Futūḥ, 207-8, has a brief notice on this campaign, noting that the 20,000 captive Ṣaḳāliba who were settled in Khāk͟hīt (Kak͟het'i in Georgia) later revolted, and Marwān "attacked and killed them." The location of this nahr al-Ṣaḳāliba remains controversial. It has often been identified with the Volga (Togan, Reisebericht, 305). Another view (ibid., 307), however, identifies these Ṣaḳāliba with the Burṭās, Suwār, Asgil and other Turkic and Finnic peoples of Volga Bulg͟haria. A passage in al-Mas'ūdī's Tanbīh, 67, however, brings us southward to the Don. He remarks that "many settlements of the Ṣaḳāliba and other nations who penetrated deep into the north" are on a great river called ṭnāys (Tanais). The Ḥudūd, tr. Minorsky, 75, 216, reflects the confusion of the mediaeval Muslim historians and geographers regarding the rivers of the Ṣaḳāliba and Rūs lands, presenting us with a conflation of the information on the Don and Volga. It notes that the river of the Rūs "rises from the interior of the Ṣaḳlāb country ... skirts the confines" of the three Rūs urban centres and the Ḳi̊pčaḳ land and "empties itself into the river Ātil." With later authors the situation is not significantly clearer. Abū Ḥāmid al-Gharnāṭī (473-565/1080-1170 [q. v.]), a native of Muslim Spain who spent much of his adult life in the Volga region (from 525/1131 largely in Ṣāḳṣīn/Sāk͟hsīn), passed through the lands of the Ṣaḳāliba (actually the Rūs region) on a journey that eventually brought him to Hungary ca. 1150. He reports that he left Bulg͟hār by ship on the "river of the Ṣaḳāliba", by which he appears to have designated the Oka (ed. and tr. Dubler, 22/61, 196- 9). His contemporary, al-ldrīsī (ed. Bombaci et al., viii, 909-10), but without al-Gharnāṭī's first-hand knowledge, designates the Don as the nahr rūsiyya.
With regard to other riverine centres, al-Mas'ūdī (Tanbīh, 67, 183) also mentions the *Danuba/*Danābī (Danube) and Malāwa (Morava) rivers on which Ṣaḳāliba settlements are to be found. Around the Malāwa, in particular, were the habitats of the Nāmd͟jīn (< Slav. Nemčin "German") and Murāwāt (Moravians, see below).
1. The Ṣaḳāliba of Northern and Eastern Europe.
The actual name was a borrowing from Middle Greek Σλάβος, "Slav." This, in turn, is to be connected with the self-designation of the Slavs, Slověne (cf. the Rus' usage Slověne, Slovyane, Sloven'ski̊y yazi̊k "Slavs", "Slavic nation" in the Povest' vremyanni̊k͟h let, in PSRL, i, 5-6, 28, Mod. Russ. Slavyane, Ukr. Slov'yani, Pol. Slowianie, Czech. Slované, Bulg. Slavyani, etc.). This latter form is reflected in the Σκλαβηνοί, Σκλαυηνοί/Sclaveni (sing. Σκλαβηνός: *Slavěn-in < *Slověn-in), the Byzantino-Latin rendering of this collective name of the Slavs. It also was used to denote the central-southern grouping of Slavic tribes by 6th7th century Byzantine (e.g. Procopius and Theophylactus of Simocatta) and Latinophone authors (e.g. Jordanes).
Due to the large numbers of slaves that came to Western Europe from the Slavic lands, the ethnonym "Slav" came to denote "slave" (< M. Eng. sclave, cf. French esclave, Ital. schiavo, Germ. Sklave, Mod. Greek Σκλάβος) in a number of European languages (see comments of Menges, Outline, 11-12; Kupfer and Lewicki, Źródła hebrajskie, 29, n. 2). A reflection of this semantic development can be seen in the Hispano-Arabic use of this term to designate, at first, Slavic slaves brought to Spain (where their role was analogous to that of the Turkic g͟hilmān of the rival 'Abbāssids) and subsequently all foreign slaves in Spanish Umayyad service [see 3. below].
Although there was some ambiguity in the Arabic usage of this term, its initial meaning was undoubtedly "Slav". Early on, however, it spread to neighbouring peoples as well. Thus the early 3rd/9th century polymath al-Khʷārazmī (Ṣurāt al-Arḍ, ed. Mzik, 105) speaks of the "country of Gharmāniyā, which is the land of the Saḳāliba." Ibn Faḍlān, who journeyed to Volga Bulg͟haria in 309-10/921-2 (the subject population of which included, in addition to various Turkic groups, Finno-Ugrian and other northern peoples), termed the Bulg͟hār ruler "King of the Saḳāliba" (see Togan, Ibn Faḍlān's Reisebericht).
The Arab accounts derive the eponymous Saḳlab from Mād͟hāy b. Yāfit͟h (al-Mas'ūdī, Ibrāhīm b. Ya'ḳūb) or 'Ūd͟jān b. Yāfit͟h. Al-Ḳazwīnī (Āt͟hār, 614), however, derives him from the descendants of Līṭ b. Kalīk͟hīm b. Yūnān b. Yāfit͟h and presents him as the brother of Rūm, Arman and Firand͟j. According to the tale preserved in the anonymous Mud͟jmal al-tawārīk͟h, 103-4, Saḳlab's father, whose mother died immediately after his birth, was raised on dog milk and developed a canine disposition. His son was called "Ṣaḳlab" (hence the popular etymology found in Gardīzī who derives this name from Sag-lābī < Pers. sag "dog"). Later, as each of Yāfit͟h's children acquired a land of their own, Ṣaḳlab struggled with Rūs, Kimārī and Khazar for possession of a territory, but was defeated. He was thus obliged to make his home in the north. This homeland of the Ṣaḳāliba is described as very cold, with homes built underground and heated by steam, a theme found in a number of the detailed descriptions in the Islamic geographical literature dealing with the Ṣaḳāliba lands. Gardīzī, in his tale of Ki̊rg͟hi̊z (Khirk͟hīz) origins, relates that the leader of the Khirk͟hīz "was from the mass of the Ṣaḳlābs". Having killed a Byzantine envoy, he was forced to flee to the Khazars, Bas͟hd͟jirts and Toḳuz Og͟huz. There he was joined by other Ṣaḳāliba. Gardīzī concludes that this is why "the features and traits of the Ṣaḳlābs are to be found among the Khirk͟hīz (such as) reddishness of hair and whiteness of skin" (tr. Martinez, 124-6, ed. Barthold, 28-9). This constitutes one of several indications of the presence of an ancient Europoid strain among the Ki̊rg͟hi̊z. It also shows the close association, in the Islamic geographical literature, of a certain fair-haired, ruddy complexioned population type of Eurasia with the Slavs.
The later Perso-Islamic historical tradition, in a notice of dubious historicity, mentions a "pass of the Khazars and Ṣaḳāliba" in connection with the activities of the Sāsānid Djāmāsp, who briefly ruled Persia 496-8. These and other notices purporting to record their presence in the north Caucasian zone in the early decades of Islam (e.g. Bal'amī) are almost certainly anachronistic. Paradoxically, we are probably on surer ground with references to Slavs that had been transplanted to Asia Minor or were serving in Byzantine forces that might have had contact with the Arabs as early as the decades preceding the advent of Islam. The earliest evidence for Arabo-Slavic contacts is found in the Byzantine sources. The 10th century chronographer Theophanes, ed. de Boor, i, 348, notes that s.a. 6156/664-5, some 5,000 Σκλαυινοί living on "Roman" territory defected to the Umayyad commander 'Abd al-Raḥmān b. Khālid (ὁ Ἀβδεραχµάν, ὁ τοῦ Χαλέδου), going with him to Syria and settling in the village of Seleucobolus in the region of Apamea. During the caliphate of 'Abd al-Malik (Άβιμέλεχ), s.a. 6184/692-3, Νέβουλος, the commander of a force of 30,000 men that had been recruited from the Slavs settled in Asia Minor, was bribed by the Arabs and together with 20,000 of his men came over to the Arab side. The Byzantine Emperor Justinian II (685-95, 705-11) slaughtered the remaining Slavs at Leucate (Theophanes, i, 365-6).
The oldest reference in Arab writings, however, is found in the works of al-Ak͟htal (d. 91/710 [q.v.]), a Christian poet of the Tag͟hlib tribe who was one of the favourites of 'Abd al-Malik. In one of his poems he makes a brief reference to the "throng of reddish Ṣaḳāliba" d͟jam'at al-Ṣaḳāliba al-ṣuhb, see text and discussion in Lewicki, Źródła arabskie, i, 6 ff., and also his Swiat, 339). Mention is made of the Ṣaḳāliba by Yazīd b. al-Muhallab, a one-time governor of Khurāsān and then rebel against caliphal authority [see MUHALLABIDS], in a speech given on the eve of his final and fatal encounter with the Umayyads. This took place in 102/720, and his remarks were preserved in a collection of notable addresses by Ibn 'Abd Rabbihi (see Lewicki, Un temoignage arabe, 319-31). The Ṣaḳāliba noted here were, in all likelihood, one or another of the diasporan Slavic groupings that were either serving in the Byzantine forces or living as transplanted colonists in Asia Minor. This notice is important in that it comes directly from a contemporary. Direct contact with the Slavic lands, however, took place only after the Arabs had secured Khʷārazm in the early 8th century (see Lewicki, Swiat, 326-7), and it became one of the principal entrepôts for commerce with eastern and northern Europe.
The later historian al-Ya'ḳūbī, Ta'rīk͟h, ii, 359, 360, mentions a "city of the Ṣaḳāliba" s.a. 96/714-5 and 98/716-7 which Maslama b. 'Abd al-Malik [q.v.] conquered in 98/716-7 in his campaign against Constantinople. It is unclear whether this Slavic urban settlement is to be sought in Asia Minor or in the Balkans, although the former seems more likely. Several decades later, in a different theatre of operations, the Umayyad commander and future caliph Marwān b. Muḥammad, in 120/737 made a daring advance into Khazar territory, capturing the city of al-Bayḍa' (probably Sarkel on the Don). Proceeding further, as we learn from the account of Ibn A't͟ham al-Kūfī (viii, 71-2, see also Togan, Reisebericht, 295 ff.), he "attacked the Ṣaḳāliba and the various infidels who lived beyond them", taking prisoner some 20,000 families. Marwān continued his advance and made camp on the "River of the Slavs" (nahr al-Ṣaḳāliba). In this region, he succeeded in capturing the Khazar Kag͟han and compelled him to embrace Islam. Al-Balād͟hurī, Futūḥ, 207-8, has a brief notice on this campaign, noting that the 20,000 captive Ṣaḳāliba who were settled in Khāk͟hīt (Kak͟het'i in Georgia) later revolted, and Marwān "attacked and killed them." The location of this nahr al-Ṣaḳāliba remains controversial. It has often been identified with the Volga (Togan, Reisebericht, 305). Another view (ibid., 307), however, identifies these Ṣaḳāliba with the Burṭās, Suwār, Asgil and other Turkic and Finnic peoples of Volga Bulg͟haria. A passage in al-Mas'ūdī's Tanbīh, 67, however, brings us southward to the Don. He remarks that "many settlements of the Ṣaḳāliba and other nations who penetrated deep into the north" are on a great river called ṭnāys (Tanais). The Ḥudūd, tr. Minorsky, 75, 216, reflects the confusion of the mediaeval Muslim historians and geographers regarding the rivers of the Ṣaḳāliba and Rūs lands, presenting us with a conflation of the information on the Don and Volga. It notes that the river of the Rūs "rises from the interior of the Ṣaḳlāb country ... skirts the confines" of the three Rūs urban centres and the Ḳi̊pčaḳ land and "empties itself into the river Ātil." With later authors the situation is not significantly clearer. Abū Ḥāmid al-Gharnāṭī (473-565/1080-1170 [q. v.]), a native of Muslim Spain who spent much of his adult life in the Volga region (from 525/1131 largely in Ṣāḳṣīn/Sāk͟hsīn), passed through the lands of the Ṣaḳāliba (actually the Rūs region) on a journey that eventually brought him to Hungary ca. 1150. He reports that he left Bulg͟hār by ship on the "river of the Ṣaḳāliba", by which he appears to have designated the Oka (ed. and tr. Dubler, 22/61, 196- 9). His contemporary, al-ldrīsī (ed. Bombaci et al., viii, 909-10), but without al-Gharnāṭī's first-hand knowledge, designates the Don as the nahr rūsiyya.
With regard to other riverine centres, al-Mas'ūdī (Tanbīh, 67, 183) also mentions the *Danuba/*Danābī (Danube) and Malāwa (Morava) rivers on which Ṣaḳāliba settlements are to be found. Around the Malāwa, in particular, were the habitats of the Nāmd͟jīn (< Slav. Nemčin "German") and Murāwāt (Moravians, see below).
@Kotromanicev sin
Q. in perpetuum hibernum
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Ako kad @Gledston navrati opet, da baci pogled na temu.
NickFreak
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Углавном када се све прегледа име је настало од словенског етнонима временом ће се однпосити на све беле робове иако ће их бити знатно мање јер су закони забњањивали продавање хришћана у робље иако се и то наравно дешавало. Опирање Словена хришћанству нарочито на Балтику је било добродошло. Сад можемо закључити једну од функција Limes Sorabikus
preko granice je lov na raobove bio dozvoljen a do 9-10. veka РЕЧ Slaven , Sakalib , Serb , Sorb sinonimi za ROB.(С)Роб
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Kotromanicev sin
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NickFreak
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Pomnju de kao Surbi savic gentus i Dervan koji prilazi Samnonovom savezu.
Karlo Veliki granicu od Albe do Trsta zove limes sorabikus postojala je do 12. veka.
NickFreak
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Inace knjigu je napiso Sloven musliman koji je obradio arapske izvore niko drugi ne bi mogao bolje od njega jer moze posmatrati stvari kroz percepciju islama.
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