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A koja nacija nije vestacka?
Ako kazemo da neka nacija nije vestacka, ispada da postoje neke nacije koje ses tvaraju ponekim prirodni, takoreci bioloskim kriterijumima.
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Antički Makedonci (helenski identitet i ostalo)
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A koja nacija nije vestacka?
Ako kazemo da neka nacija nije vestacka, ispada da postoje neke nacije koje ses tvaraju ponekim prirodni, takoreci bioloskim kriterijumima.
Pumpaj Dinstanović
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A koja nacija nije vestacka?
Ako kazemo da neka nacija nije vestacka, ispada da postoje neke nacije koje ses tvaraju ponekim prirodni, takoreci bioloskim kriterijumima.
Nije Carlin15 prvi koji to tvrdi.
Gomila na ovom forumu govori o prirodnim i neprirodnim nacijama (koji, uključuju, čuda li čudnoga Srbe u prvoj grupi i sve susjede u drugoj).
Statler and Waldorf
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то је зато што не разумеју значење појма нација. зато треба стално изнова понављати да је нација- политичка заједница.
Наслов ове теме је Antički Makedonci (helenski identitet i ostalo).
Тиме се подразумева да су они имали хеленски идентитет, што је дискутабилно али небитно. Онда јако пуно људи наставе добро, ако је то тако, онда садашњи Грци , т.ј. модерни Хелени су најближи тим Македонцима.
Међутим то модерно хелентво је пре свега фабрикација 19 века. Чак је име Хелен било скоро непознато у то време, људи су углавно користили термин "Ромеј" , односно Римјанин (чак се и дан данас се користи кадкад по селима), што је рецидив византијске епохе.
Веза било ког античког и модерног народа , поготово на Балкану где су били константне миграције и мешања, скоро немогуће доказати.
Све те генетске студије које се помињу су на нивоу анегдоте, покупиш 20-50 људи као примерак и онда публикујеш радове. Али пошто постоји модерни политички проблем око имена Македоније, некако стално се враћа на питање којој историји припадају ти антички Македонци, а у ствари најтачнији одговор је никоме (или свакоме) у региону.
Тиме се подразумева да су они имали хеленски идентитет, што је дискутабилно али небитно. Онда јако пуно људи наставе добро, ако је то тако, онда садашњи Грци , т.ј. модерни Хелени су најближи тим Македонцима.
Међутим то модерно хелентво је пре свега фабрикација 19 века. Чак је име Хелен било скоро непознато у то време, људи су углавно користили термин "Ромеј" , односно Римјанин (чак се и дан данас се користи кадкад по селима), што је рецидив византијске епохе.
Веза било ког античког и модерног народа , поготово на Балкану где су били константне миграције и мешања, скоро немогуће доказати.
Све те генетске студије које се помињу су на нивоу анегдоте, покупиш 20-50 људи као примерак и онда публикујеш радове. Али пошто постоји модерни политички проблем око имена Македоније, некако стално се враћа на питање којој историји припадају ти антички Македонци, а у ствари најтачнији одговор је никоме (или свакоме) у региону.
A koja nacija nije vestacka?
Ako kazemo da neka nacija nije vestacka, ispada da postoje neke nacije koje ses tvaraju ponekim prirodni, takoreci bioloskim kriterijumima.
Slazem se 100%.
Mnogi na Balkanu (a mozda i sire), dele nacije na prirode i neprirodne - ali to uopste nije ni poenta... Zna se kako se moderna Grcka nacija stvorila, takodje i Srpska, Makedonska, Bugarska... Podele na "prirode" i "neprirodne" nacije su besmislene, posto je proces kreacije i stvaranja "X" nacije bio svugde slican ili gotovo identican.
Stvar sa modernim Grcima je u tome sto su moderni Grci -- U CELINI -- (samo)helenizovani Cincari/Vlasi, Arvaniti, Sloveni, Jermeni, itd. Ako mislite da preterujem, onda i sami (pojedini) Grci preteruju:
Modern Greece is by no means related either genetically or culturally to the ancient cosmos and the people who once occupied this land. The modern greeks are just an intermixture of balkan tribes (albanians/arvanites, slavs, wlachs) which in the process of time mingled with northern africans, armenians and other tribes of Anatolia, not to mention the francs and the venetians who were also dominantly present in this land.
http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=480
http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=3086
... A ja cu nastaviti da vas gnjavim... Na primer, da li ste znali da su Kolokotronis i grcki pobunjenici (grcka rev. 1821. godine) govorili medjusobno jezik koji nije bio niti grcki niti albanski. Ovo je Peloponez pocetkom 19. veka -- sta reci za Makedoniju ili Epir?
- Ο Κολοκοτρώνης ήταν Αρβανιτόβλαχος: Kolokotronis was an Arvanitovlach.
- Με δεδομένο μάλιστα ότι ο Αυστριακός επιτετραμένος της εποχής που επισκέφθηκε τον Κολοκοτρώνη στα λημέρια του γράφει πως μιλούσε στο ασκέρι του σε μια γλώσσα που δεν ήταν ελληνικά αλλά ούτε και Αρβανίτικα. Φυσικά και δεν ήταν αφού βλάχικα μιλούσε ο άνθρωπος γιατί από βλάχους απαρτίζονταν και το ασκέρι του: The Austrian charge d'affaires (commissioners) of the era visited Kolokotronis in dens, wrote that Kolokotronis was speaking to his asker (soldiers) in a language that was not Greek nor Arvanitika.
PS: G. Nakratzas, page 79: "Thessaloniki had always had a very large Vlach population". In 1605 AD, half of the city's Christian population was of Vlach origin. Serres: in 1878 the majority of the population was Vlach or Slavonic-speaking (pg. 82).
Poslednja izmena:
Pumpaj Dinstanović
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Хеленско име фабрикација 19. века скоро непозната у то време? Па како су се звале само национално ослободилачке организације? Који етноним је користило тајно удружење, чијег је члан био и Карађорђе? Како Грке зову патријарси у Пећи?
Ниђе Ромеј Само Хелен.
Код интелектуалаца је било термин Хелен. Али већина становништва, поготово рурални део користи термин Ромеј.
Pumpaj Dinstanović
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Имаш ли нешто чиме би то могао доказати? Посебно јер су ретке ситуације да знамо нешто о неписменим сељацима...сем кад што по који путописац остави (а то је, врло често, сумњивог значаја).
Kostis Palamas (hardly an uneducated villager) in 1901. stated the following:
«Έλληνες για να ρίχνουμε στάχτη στα μάτια του κόσμου, πραγματικά Ρωμιοί».
"Hellenes in order to pull the wool over world's eyes, in reality Romans."
ретке ситуације....??
http://oodegr.co/english/biblia/romiosyni/kef1.htm#_Toc158748532
Copy & Paste, 'cuz that's what life is all about:
The national name of our ancestors throughout all these years is “Romans”, or “Romee” (in Greek “Romií”, Pronounced “Rome-ee-ee” Plural for “Romeos”), in the popular form of the language. In every one of the historical sources, without exception, the Empire of Constantinople refers to itself as “Roman”, or “Romania” (=land of the Romans) in the popular form of the language, while its emperors, up to and including Constantine Paleologos, were known as “king of the Romans”. For some strange reasons however, this perfectly clarified fact is disputed by certain contemporary researchers, who struggle to compose their own, personal ideological fabrications.
For example, they have been promoting the “objection” that for most people, the national meaning of the word “Hellene” has not been lost, and that the term “Roman” that we encounter in all the sources is merely the official name attributed to the citizens of the State; a name that was imposed on them “from higher up”, and that it was not the name that the inhabitants of “Hellas” had personally chosen as most representative of what they believed themselves to be. 24
But, as Mantouvalou has keenly observed, if that were the case, then how does one explain the continuing use of the name Romans (or “Romií”, Pronounced “Rome-ee-ee” Plural for “Romeos”) during the Turkish occupation, after the dissolution of the Roman State? 25 The “Hellenes” – now subjects of the Ottoman Empire – would logically have no reason whatsoever to continue using the name of their former conquerors – the Romans – and continue to refer to themselves as Romans. Not unless they actually felt they were Romans..... And the truth of course is, that they did feel that way, and were very much aware of it, regardless of what Westerners propagandized..... From the innumerable examples that could be mentioned here, we will present only a few, indicatively. All of the examples originate, not from scholars and intellectuals, but from ordinary, everyday people.
What most of the people believed about the “Hellenes”, before becoming “enlightened” by western Europeans, has been recorded by I. Th. Kakrides in his invaluable study on folklore “The Ancient Hellenes in the neo-Hellenic Popular Tradition”. 26 Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century - believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants. This is the way they also explained the existence of the oversized monuments that used to abound in our land.
These ancient people were admired for their strength (in 19th-century Cephalonia island, Kakrides mentions that the inhabitants had an expression “hey, this guy is like a Hellene!”) 27, but they certainly did not identify themselves with them. Besides, the author referred to them as “Hellenes” and not “Ancient Hellenes”, obviously because there was no chance that they would be confused with another contemporary nation.
In 19th-century Sfakia (in the Island of Crete), the locals claimed that “up there, on the crest of the Samaria mountain, is the olden-day land of the Hellenes. That’s where the Hellenes finished. And they say that up there is a treasure, but it was never found.” 28
In the region of Thesprotia – and of the 20th century in fact - grandmothers used to tell a story a story that began like this: “In the olden years, there used to live in this region a different kind of people, the Hellenes. (.........) Those Hellenes did not resemble today’s people. They were tall in stature, like cypress-trees....”. 29
A characteristic, 19th century song from the region of Epirus says: “Angelina, Koumena’s daughter, has a gallant husband; He has tresses (long hair) just like a Hellene’s, and his chest is like a lion’s...” 30
Another familiar folk-song says: “My mother was a Christian maid, my father a Hellene.....”
Kakrides records a total of 85 narratives or phrases, from every corner of Hellas, where the “Hellenes” have remained in our popular tradition with the significance that we mentioned above.
http://oodegr.co/english/biblia/romiosyni/kef1.htm#_Toc158748532
Copy & Paste, 'cuz that's what life is all about:
The national name of our ancestors throughout all these years is “Romans”, or “Romee” (in Greek “Romií”, Pronounced “Rome-ee-ee” Plural for “Romeos”), in the popular form of the language. In every one of the historical sources, without exception, the Empire of Constantinople refers to itself as “Roman”, or “Romania” (=land of the Romans) in the popular form of the language, while its emperors, up to and including Constantine Paleologos, were known as “king of the Romans”. For some strange reasons however, this perfectly clarified fact is disputed by certain contemporary researchers, who struggle to compose their own, personal ideological fabrications.
For example, they have been promoting the “objection” that for most people, the national meaning of the word “Hellene” has not been lost, and that the term “Roman” that we encounter in all the sources is merely the official name attributed to the citizens of the State; a name that was imposed on them “from higher up”, and that it was not the name that the inhabitants of “Hellas” had personally chosen as most representative of what they believed themselves to be. 24
But, as Mantouvalou has keenly observed, if that were the case, then how does one explain the continuing use of the name Romans (or “Romií”, Pronounced “Rome-ee-ee” Plural for “Romeos”) during the Turkish occupation, after the dissolution of the Roman State? 25 The “Hellenes” – now subjects of the Ottoman Empire – would logically have no reason whatsoever to continue using the name of their former conquerors – the Romans – and continue to refer to themselves as Romans. Not unless they actually felt they were Romans..... And the truth of course is, that they did feel that way, and were very much aware of it, regardless of what Westerners propagandized..... From the innumerable examples that could be mentioned here, we will present only a few, indicatively. All of the examples originate, not from scholars and intellectuals, but from ordinary, everyday people.
What most of the people believed about the “Hellenes”, before becoming “enlightened” by western Europeans, has been recorded by I. Th. Kakrides in his invaluable study on folklore “The Ancient Hellenes in the neo-Hellenic Popular Tradition”. 26 Very briefly, the average person – up to and including the beginning of the 20th century - believed that the Hellenes were an ancient, idolatrous population of giants. This is the way they also explained the existence of the oversized monuments that used to abound in our land.
These ancient people were admired for their strength (in 19th-century Cephalonia island, Kakrides mentions that the inhabitants had an expression “hey, this guy is like a Hellene!”) 27, but they certainly did not identify themselves with them. Besides, the author referred to them as “Hellenes” and not “Ancient Hellenes”, obviously because there was no chance that they would be confused with another contemporary nation.
In 19th-century Sfakia (in the Island of Crete), the locals claimed that “up there, on the crest of the Samaria mountain, is the olden-day land of the Hellenes. That’s where the Hellenes finished. And they say that up there is a treasure, but it was never found.” 28
In the region of Thesprotia – and of the 20th century in fact - grandmothers used to tell a story a story that began like this: “In the olden years, there used to live in this region a different kind of people, the Hellenes. (.........) Those Hellenes did not resemble today’s people. They were tall in stature, like cypress-trees....”. 29
A characteristic, 19th century song from the region of Epirus says: “Angelina, Koumena’s daughter, has a gallant husband; He has tresses (long hair) just like a Hellene’s, and his chest is like a lion’s...” 30
Another familiar folk-song says: “My mother was a Christian maid, my father a Hellene.....”
Kakrides records a total of 85 narratives or phrases, from every corner of Hellas, where the “Hellenes” have remained in our popular tradition with the significance that we mentioned above.
evo primer
https://books.google.com/books?id=i...Q6AEIVDAJ#v=onepage&q=Hellenes Romans&f=false
Carlin15 je dao par primera. Imaš par artikla na Vikipediji upravo o tome, posebno ovo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names...tween_the_names_Hellene.2C_Roman.2C_and_Greek
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
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Све до буђења модерне националне свести у Грцима (процес који је почео у раном деветнаестом веку), међу Грцима назив Хелен је био потиснут од стране државе и цркве, у корист термина Ромеј, зато што су Хелени били пагани. Под утицајем западних филозофа просвећења (The Enlightenment), широм Европе религија је постала сумњива а моћ цркве је знатно опала. То је омогућило делимични повратак пред-хришћанској културној свести и, за грчке интелектуалце, ендоним Хелен је постао прихватљив. Међутим за обичне Грке и религија и назив Ромеј су преживели овај процес, до данас, мада сви Грци данас обично користе ендоним Хелен.
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Domaćin
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Pa bila je velika polemika medju njima da li da se zovu Heleni ili Romeji. Helenizam je pobedio, bez nemalog uticaja zapada.
Pumpaj Dinstanović
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Ma jasno je to meni bre, samo ne vjerujem da je prije 1800. godine Helen bilo gotovo nepoznato. Pećki patrijarsi ih zovu Jelinima, kako se može naći kroz sve srpske izvore otomanskog perioda. Fanarioti, pobogu, zvali su sebe Helenima. Da parafraziram Nikolasa Mavrokordatosa, reče da su oni čisti Heleni.
Argument da su stoljeća vladavine Turaka Osmanlije dovele do potpunog izumiranja helenskog imena, da bi ono odjednom bivalo vraćano iz prošlosti u XIX stoljeću i kao takvo odabrano kod modernih nacionalnih inženjera, jednostavno ne stoji, zato što se temelji na netačnim pretpostavkama.
Pa ljudi, čuli ste za Rigu od Fere, valjda?
P. S. Malo iz grčke Moderne geografije iz XVIII stoljeća:
Poslednja izmena:
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Domaćin
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Koliko mi je ostalo u secanju, mada nisam skoro citao, kroz srednji vek vrlo uredno su se zvali Romejima, tek pred kraj pocinje vrlo stidljivo da se pojavljuje naziv Helen. Mislim da je problem sto je naziv Helen postao vezan za paganstvo. U vreme turskog ropstva, narod je pre svega znao za odrednicu Romej, pitanje da li je prosecan grkofoni seljak i znao sta je to Helen
...naravno ako ima neko pri ruci konkretne putopise i slicno iz osmanskog perioda koji govore o tome, bilo bi divno - - - - - - - - - -
Mislim da je to slozen problem, recimo da su neke nacije vise nastale sa dna piramide, a neke sa vrha, da se tako izrazim
.A neke, kao moderne crnogarska nacija, mislim da se opiru bilo kakvim racionalnim kvalifikacijama
Није било непознато, било је познато интелектуалцима. Дај један пример где обични људи знају шта Хелен уопште значи пре 19 века. Ту је било постављено неколико примера у супротно.
То ти је ко да сад тврдим о некаквим Илирима пошто је постоjао Илирски покрет цирка 1830, или о некаквим југословенима у 19 века. Те ствари су постојали у глави шачици интелектуалаца.
Поменуо си Рига од Фере па он у Турио написао: Bulgarians and Albanians, Armenians and Romioi, blacks and whites, with a common impulse.
Такођер:
In his New Political Administration (Vienna 1797), which does mention Vlachs along with “Hellenes”, Bulgarians, Albanians, Armenians and Turks, Rigas talks about his hoped-for republic as being “Hellenic”. Nevertheless, for Rigas, to become a “Hellene” through the adoption of Greek language and culture (as he had observed many people doing in the Danubian Principalities of Wallachia and Moldavia) was not an “ethnic mutation” but “a sort of emancipation, both social and personal, from Ottoman despotism”.[6] While Rigas proposed that Greek should be the official language of the state that he envisaged, he did not suggest that the other languages be abolished.
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl29_1.htm#_ftn4
Хелен му дође као побољшана верзија Ромеја, upgrade. General Makrygiannis tells of a priest who performed his duty in front of the "Romans" (civilians) but secretly spied on the "Hellenes" (fighters). "Roman" almost came to be associated with passiveness and enslavement, and "Hellene" brought back the memory of ancient glories and the fight for freedom.
Не знам о Nikolasa Mavrokordatosa али знам да су фанариоти пореклом старе византиске аристократије и доминирали цркву те управо су они инсистирали на Ромеје. Фанариот уствари долаѕи од Фенер које је кварт Цариграда где су живели. И дан данас Цариградски Грци за себе кажу да су Ромеји и дан данас Турци их називају Rumlar. И дан данас се у цариграду штампају некакви Ромјски алманаси, не Хеленски или Грчки
http://eu.greekreporter.com/2014/04/13/2014-greek-almanac-published-in-istanbul/
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=0
- - - - - - - - - -
Riga od Fere je smatrao da su i Vlaho-Moldavci Grci / Heleni. Sta cemo sa tim?
Laonikos Chalkokondyles je takodje smatrao da su stanovnici Peloponeza u celini Grci/Heleni, i potomci Helena. To je zanimljivo -- ali sta cemo opet sa sledecim:
Sphrantzes (ili Phrantzes) u 15. veku izjavljuje: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”
2 + 2 = 5
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe, Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/24/arts/design/24abroad.html?_r=0
- - - - - - - - - -
Riga od Fere je smatrao da su i Vlaho-Moldavci Grci / Heleni. Sta cemo sa tim?
Laonikos Chalkokondyles je takodje smatrao da su stanovnici Peloponeza u celini Grci/Heleni, i potomci Helena. To je zanimljivo -- ali sta cemo opet sa sledecim:
Sphrantzes (ili Phrantzes) u 15. veku izjavljuje: “Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”
2 + 2 = 5
Poslednja izmena:
The Greeks call their country Armania (Romania)
Notices et extraits des manuscrits de la Bibliothèque Nationale et ..., Volume 8
https://books.google.ca/books?id=lp...onepage&q=Les Grecs appellent Armania&f=false
Η Ιστορία και η Παρουσία των Βλάχων στην Αλβανία
Read more http://history-of-macedonia.com/2010/08/08/vlaxoi-istoria-parousia-albania/
http://history-of-macedonia.com/2010/08/08/vlaxoi-istoria-parousia-albania/
Arman = "Vlach" = Rhomios... Armania = Roumania = Ellada... Nothing important.
Philike Hetairea -
Notices et extraits des manuscrits de la Bibliothèque Nationale et ..., Volume 8
https://books.google.ca/books?id=lp...onepage&q=Les Grecs appellent Armania&f=false
Η Ιστορία και η Παρουσία των Βλάχων στην Αλβανία
Read more http://history-of-macedonia.com/2010/08/08/vlaxoi-istoria-parousia-albania/
http://history-of-macedonia.com/2010/08/08/vlaxoi-istoria-parousia-albania/
Arman = "Vlach" = Rhomios... Armania = Roumania = Ellada... Nothing important.
Philike Hetairea -
Poslednja izmena:
Od Tacita znamo da je jos u njegovo vreme rasa (pravih) Atinjana izumrla.
Link -
https://books.google.ca/books?id=9h...ei=_0f_TqqaK-TL0QGvqbyDAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Now Cneius Piso, hurrying to the execution of his purposes, terrified the city of Athens by a tempestuous entry, and reproached them in a severe speech, with oblique censure of Germanicus, that, debasing the dignity of the Roman name, he had paid excessive court, not to the Athenians, by so many slaughters long since extinct, but to the then mixed scum of nations there
Link -
https://books.google.ca/books?id=9h...ei=_0f_TqqaK-TL0QGvqbyDAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Now Cneius Piso, hurrying to the execution of his purposes, terrified the city of Athens by a tempestuous entry, and reproached them in a severe speech, with oblique censure of Germanicus, that, debasing the dignity of the Roman name, he had paid excessive court, not to the Athenians, by so many slaughters long since extinct, but to the then mixed scum of nations there
Katerini, 2013
Poslednja izmena:
Етнички састав / порекло становника данашње Грчке Македоније.
Стр. 85, 86, 92, 93 из исте књиге -
Додатни цитати -
1) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians; Thessaly in those of Vlachs and Anatolians, introduced from Konia about the tenth century; and Macedonia, north of Vistritza, in those of a blend of Slav with Bulgar mixed further with Vlach and Anatolian elements."
2) Source: Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that the Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia.
3) According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the 19th century Greeks did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Slavonic, Albanian, and Vlach dialects.
Додатни цитати -
1) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians; Thessaly in those of Vlachs and Anatolians, introduced from Konia about the tenth century; and Macedonia, north of Vistritza, in those of a blend of Slav with Bulgar mixed further with Vlach and Anatolian elements."
2) Source: Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that the Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia.
3) According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the 19th century Greeks did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Slavonic, Albanian, and Vlach dialects.
Poslednja izmena:
Pravi Vlah
Iskusan
- Poruka
- 5.024
sumljiv_tip
Domaćin
- Poruka
- 3.735
То је тачно за све, али за Србе не!
Pa onda moze se reci... Srbi, Francuzi, Englezi i Rus, kao najtipicniji primeri proto-nacija u Evropi.
