Порекло Македонаца

A opet sasvim jasno Sloveni u Makedoniji docekuju Nemanjice kao oslobodioce I kao “svoje “ .
Definitivno je da je na tom prostoru medju slovenskim zivljem bilo najvise Srba. Kasnije je sve proizvod politike. Mnogo toga ce se jos saznati.
Samo, suludo je kad se neki Sloven iz Mk poziva na Aleksandra itd a njegovi pretci nisu ni bili na Balkanu u to vreme.

Nemanjiće. :D Pa pričamo valjda o kasnom XIX i ranom XX veku?
 
Ako je ova tema u sferi nauke evo 20 citata. Vecina je iz razdoblja izmedju dva svetska rata, mada ima par sa kraja 19. veka i samog pocetka 20. veka. 'Najstariji' je cini mi se iz 1886. gde se navodi: It is true that a Macedonian rarely speaks of himself as a Serb. Citati Srba su boldovani.

1) Hermann Wendel, 1920:
"The Slavs call themselves Makedonci as everywhere else standing between the Serbs and the Bulgarians."

2) Rudolf A. Reiss, 1918:
"But I repeat that the big mass of the population remained Macedonian."

3) Jovan Petrovic, Serb from Skopje, May 1938:
"The local Macedonians...view us as usurpers, invaders, and exploiters, they are always hostile toward us and work in unity and systematically to drive us out on every issue."

4) Douglas Walsh, With the Serbs in Macedonia, 1920, Page 188:
"Language difficulties never daunt a British Tommy, not even modern Greek or Macedonski."

5) A Foreign Consul in Skopje, 1915, in My Balkan Log, by J. Abraham, 1922, Pages 137 and 138:
"The average Macedonian is neither Serb, nor Greek, nor Bulgar."

6) Andra Gavrilovic, Brankovo Kolo X 17, 1904, Page 516:
"This winter a Macedonian theater group, under the direction of Crnodrimski, gave guest performances in Belgrade and certain other cities of the Kingdom of Serbia. It presented original Macedonian dramas in the Macedonian language. In one word, we had attempts at a new spiritual-cultural literature and art - Macedonian. Let us not fool ourselves. What Crnodrimski presented was not a jargon but a tryout of a foreign culture in another milieu."

7) Captain P.H. Evans, 1944:
"Macedonian patriotism is not artificial; it is natural, a spontaneous and deep-rooted feeling which begins in childhood."

8) James G. Minchin, The Growth of Freedom in the Balkan Peninsula, 1886, Page 95:
"It is true that a Macedonian rarely speaks of himself as a Serb, and this has misled even M. de Laveleye into speaking of all Macedonians as Bulgarians."

9) Georgy Young, Nationalism and War in the Near East, 1915, Page 89:
"These Macedonians have a character and a dialect of their own, such as would justify their being considered one of the many distinct Yugo-Slav types."

10) Aleksandar Andrijevic, Strumica: Land and People, 1923:
"'You are certainly a Serb?' I asked one of the litigants in court. 'Well, that's how it is now. When the Bulgarians were here I was a 'Bulgarian'. The Serbs arrived, I am now 'Serb', but I am a Christian. 'You want to be closer to the Greeks.' 'No, Greek is something else, I'm a Macedonian.'

11) Oliver C. Harvey, 1926:
"The Slavophone population of Serbian Macedonia definitely regard themselves as distinct from the Serbs. If asked their nationality they say that they are Macedonians, and they speak the Macedonian dialect."

12) Karl Hron, 1899:
"Through my own studies...I came to the conclusion that Macedonians are a separate nation by its history as well as by its own language."

13) Isaiah Bowman, Constantinople and the Balkans, What Really Happened at Paris, 1921, Page 170:
"It is therefore improbable that the Macedonian question will be revived except through the possible cruelties of Greeks and Serbs in their treatment of the Macedonians."

14) Rudolf A. Reiss, Sur la situation des Macedoniens et des musulmans dans les Nouvelles provinces Grecques, 1918, Page 6-7: "But the fact is that Macedonian is not spoken either in Sofia or in Belgrade. It is a separate Slavic language."

15) Edmond Bouchie de Belle, La Macedoine et les Macedoniens, Paris, 1922, 80, IV, 303:
"In the district of Ostrovo/Bitola, nine times out of ten these people, despite being the subject of dispute by three adjoining countries - Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece - would reply in response to the question as to their nationality that they were Macedonians."

16) House of Commons Papers, Volume 12, 1929, Page 368:
"Since then Greece and Bulgaria have recognized Macedonian minorities, and Yugoslavia has protested that there are no Macedonians. No attempt was made to settle the Balkan States in accordance with race."

17) Herbert Vivian, The Servian Tragedy, 1904, Page 278:
"If crime were ever justifiable, ample excuse could be found for Servian committees, Servian bands of brigands and the terrorism of all Macedonian Slavs who refused to confess themselves Servian."

18) Gerhard Christoph, 1931:
"'What language do you speak?' I asked the peasant... ' I am a Macedonian,' he replies, 'you know, the Serbs maintain that our language is a Serbian dialect, the Bulgarians say that we speak Bulgarian. What can you do about it?'"

19) Mihailo Markovic, Moje Uspomene, 1906, Page 316:
"I asked him if he was a Bulgarian? 'I'm not.' I asked him if he was a Serb, Greek, or perhaps even a Tsintsar. 'No, I am not. I am a Macedonian from Veles.'"

20) R.A. Gallop, Conditions in Macedonia, 19 April 1926:
"The Macedonian Slavs considered and called themselves 'Makedonci'."
 
Poslednja izmena:
Васил - everything you said was to the point and I don't have the ability to dispute it. In fact (and if you perhaps follow my posts on this forum) you'd easliy find that I do agree with you - especially with the conclusion that it is completely correct that the recorded medieval names of peoples ... were never just an ethnic designation. I'd even go a step further, but I digress ... The reference, such as it is, to Macedonians in that quote is quite simply there, recorded by history - and if we are going to apply strict, in-depth, and scientific scrutiny and analysis each time this 'term' is mentioned then we should be honest enough and apply the same rigour and analysis to 'references' of all tribes, population groups, ethnicities, nations, etc., throughout the recorded history.

How about the following quote? Which Macedonians are we talking about here?

'The Turkes Secretoire, Containing his Sundrie Letters', 1607 (undated letter):

The Turke to the Macedonians
Your Ambassadors brought me that you gave them in charge: whereby you provoke me rather unto pitie than unto hate; for it seemed to become you farre better, who have been conquered so oft, and brought so oft to be suters on your knees, to receive with thanks, and not to offer with such impudencie the conditions of peace; is it not shame that men in misery by war should stand on proud termes with their conquerors?

The Macedonians to the Turke
What just and equal peace can there be betwixt thee and the Macedonians: we desire and endeavor to defend our country, and our laws; thou not content with thine own, thirstest after other kingdoms by force of arms, and seekest to stretch out thine empire beyond thy bounds: we cannot but speak touching our common-wealth, as it becomes our constancie and generous mindes, that we hold nothing dearer, and sweeter among men, than libertie; yet this has always been the common vice and fault among tyrants; free states they hate to death, free cities stand too much in their sight.


(Anyway, all modern nations are socially constructed communities, imagined by the people who perceive themselves as part of those groups. In Benedict Anderson's book, Imagined Communities, the concept is explained in depth.)



Порекло Македонаца - additional citation.

H.N. Brailsford, Macedonia; Its Races and Their Future, 1906, Page 101:

"Are the Macedonians Serbs or Bulgars? The question is constantly asked and dogmatically answered in Belgrade and Sofia. But the lesson of history obviously is that there is no answer at all. They are not Serbs, for their blood can hardly be purely Slavonic. There must be in it some admixture of Bulgarian and other non-Aryan stock (Kuman Tartars, Pechenegs, &c). On the other hand, they can hardly be Bulgarians, for quite clearly the Servian immigrations and conquests must have left much Servian blood in their veins, and the admixture of non-Aryan blood can scarcely be so considerable as it is in Bulgaria. They are probably very much what they were before either a Bulgarian or a Servian Empire existed - a Slav people derived from rather various stocks, who invaded the peninsula at different periods."
 
Poslednja izmena:
Recimo da je tema kao istorijska, naslov sugerise drugaciji pristup.
Tako da i odgovor ne moze biti u okviru istorije.

Dakle, Makedonija i Makedonci nisu Srbi ni na srpskoj zemlji.
To sto su Makedonci narod blizak Srbima ne znaci da je potrebno
prisvajati ih kao i njihovu zamlju.
Da li bi Rusi mogli da postave istorijsko pitanje koliko su Srbi autenticni,
ako tamo neka usvojena istorija tvrdi da su srbi na ovu teritoriju dosli
sa tamo neke ruske teritorije i za interese rusije osvojili balkan? Tamo neke godine?
Znaci naslov je budalastina.
 
Једини словенски језици који немају падежа су бугарски и "македонски".Крај приче,end of story.
Македонци могу бити једино Бугари.
Idiiiiiii? Lingvisticki ce biti da su Bugari u stvari Makedonizovani varvari,
jer za makedonce se zna poreklo, za Bugare ne zna.
 
Ako je ova tema u sferi nauke evo 20 citata. Vecina je iz razdoblja izmedju dva svetska rata, mada ima par sa kraja 19. veka i samog pocetka 20. veka. 'Najstariji' je cini mi se iz 1886. gde se navodi: It is true that a Macedonian rarely speaks of himself as a Serb. Citati Srba su boldovani.

1) Hermann Wendel, 1920:
"The Slavs call themselves Makedonci as everywhere else standing between the Serbs and the Bulgarians."

2) Rudolf A. Reiss, 1918:
"But I repeat that the big mass of the population remained Macedonian."

3) Jovan Petrovic, Serb from Skopje, May 1938:
"The local Macedonians...view us as usurpers, invaders, and exploiters, they are always hostile toward us and work in unity and systematically to drive us out on every issue."

4) Douglas Walsh, With the Serbs in Macedonia, 1920, Page 188:
"Language difficulties never daunt a British Tommy, not even modern Greek or Macedonski."

5) A Foreign Consul in Skopje, 1915, in My Balkan Log, by J. Abraham, 1922, Pages 137 and 138:
"The average Macedonian is neither Serb, nor Greek, nor Bulgar."

6) Andra Gavrilovic, Brankovo Kolo X 17, 1904, Page 516:
"This winter a Macedonian theater group, under the direction of Crnodrimski, gave guest performances in Belgrade and certain other cities of the Kingdom of Serbia. It presented original Macedonian dramas in the Macedonian language. In one word, we had attempts at a new spiritual-cultural literature and art - Macedonian. Let us not fool ourselves. What Crnodrimski presented was not a jargon but a tryout of a foreign culture in another milieu."

7) Captain P.H. Evans, 1944:
"Macedonian patriotism is not artificial; it is natural, a spontaneous and deep-rooted feeling which begins in childhood."

8) James G. Minchin, The Growth of Freedom in the Balkan Peninsula, 1886, Page 95:
"It is true that a Macedonian rarely speaks of himself as a Serb, and this has misled even M. de Laveleye into speaking of all Macedonians as Bulgarians."

9) Georgy Young, Nationalism and War in the Near East, 1915, Page 89:
"These Macedonians have a character and a dialect of their own, such as would justify their being considered one of the many distinct Yugo-Slav types."

10) Aleksandar Andrijevic, Strumica: Land and People, 1923:
"'You are certainly a Serb?' I asked one of the litigants in court. 'Well, that's how it is now. When the Bulgarians were here I was a 'Bulgarian'. The Serbs arrived, I am now 'Serb', but I am a Christian. 'You want to be closer to the Greeks.' 'No, Greek is something else, I'm a Macedonian.'

11) Oliver C. Harvey, 1926:
"The Slavophone population of Serbian Macedonia definitely regard themselves as distinct from the Serbs. If asked their nationality they say that they are Macedonians, and they speak the Macedonian dialect."

12) Karl Hron, 1899:
"Through my own studies...I came to the conclusion that Macedonians are a separate nation by its history as well as by its own language."

13) Isaiah Bowman, Constantinople and the Balkans, What Really Happened at Paris, 1921, Page 170:
"It is therefore improbable that the Macedonian question will be revived except through the possible cruelties of Greeks and Serbs in their treatment of the Macedonians."

14) Rudolf A. Reiss, Sur la situation des Macedoniens et des musulmans dans les Nouvelles provinces Grecques, 1918, Page 6-7: "But the fact is that Macedonian is not spoken either in Sofia or in Belgrade. It is a separate Slavic language."

15) Edmond Bouchie de Belle, La Macedoine et les Macedoniens, Paris, 1922, 80, IV, 303:
"In the district of Ostrovo/Bitola, nine times out of ten these people, despite being the subject of dispute by three adjoining countries - Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece - would reply in response to the question as to their nationality that they were Macedonians."

16) House of Commons Papers, Volume 12, 1929, Page 368:
"Since then Greece and Bulgaria have recognized Macedonian minorities, and Yugoslavia has protested that there are no Macedonians. No attempt was made to settle the Balkan States in accordance with race."

17) Herbert Vivian, The Servian Tragedy, 1904, Page 278:
"If crime were ever justifiable, ample excuse could be found for Servian committees, Servian bands of brigands and the terrorism of all Macedonian Slavs who refused to confess themselves Servian."

18) Gerhard Christoph, 1931:
"'What language do you speak?' I asked the peasant... ' I am a Macedonian,' he replies, 'you know, the Serbs maintain that our language is a Serbian dialect, the Bulgarians say that we speak Bulgarian. What can you do about it?'"

19) Mihailo Markovic, Moje Uspomene, 1906, Page 316:
"I asked him if he was a Bulgarian? 'I'm not.' I asked him if he was a Serb, Greek, or perhaps even a Tsintsar. 'No, I am not. I am a Macedonian from Veles.'"

20) R.A. Gallop, Conditions in Macedonia, 19 April 1926:
"The Macedonian Slavs considered and called themselves 'Makedonci'."
Bravo Carlin, napravio si dobar posao i, nadam se, uverio ove usijane nacionalisticke glave da Makedonci nisu nista drugo osim Makedonci. Ovoliki sovinisticki naboj kod nekolicine velikosrpskih nacionalista, retko se srece. Bezbroj proizvoljnost, tupavihi i stetnih iskaza. Zaboravljaju da se narod ne formira u par dekada ili vekova. Makedoniju su "oslobodili" Srbi, Bugari i Grci, i podelili je izmedju sebe kao ratni plen. Da su Makedonci Srbi, kralj Aleksandar ne bi ih delio sa Bugarima, a pogotovu ne sa Grcima. Balkanski ratovi su bili osvajacki, a pobednici su cinili nevidjena zverstva prema muslimanskom stanovnistvu na "oslobodjenoj" teritoriji, kao i prema zarobljenim turskim vojnicima.
 
Bravo Carlin, napravio si dobar posao i, nadam se, uverio ove usijane nacionalisticke glave da Makedonci nisu nista drugo osim Makedonci. Ovoliki sovinisticki naboj kod nekolicine velikosrpskih nacionalista, retko se srece. Bezbroj proizvoljnost, tupavihi i stetnih iskaza. Zaboravljaju da se narod ne formira u par dekada ili vekova. Makedoniju su "oslobodili" Srbi, Bugari i Grci, i podelili je izmedju sebe kao ratni plen. Da su Makedonci Srbi, kralj Aleksandar ne bi ih delio sa Bugarima, a pogotovu ne sa Grcima. Balkanski ratovi su bili osvajacki, a pobednici su cinili nevidjena zverstva prema muslimanskom stanovnistvu na "oslobodjenoj" teritoriji, kao i prema zarobljenim turskim vojnicima.

Ti muslimani i turci su stigli vozom, pa ih je neko ubijao? Nisu prethodno nosili sablje i kocice?
 
Нисмо дошљаци овде као што су Словени.Ми смо Трачани,где да се носимо?

Kao sto su i Makedonci na svojoj zemlji, a vi bi da ih potracanite,
tacnije vase je to pravo, koje drugim narodima oduzimate.
Posto si poceo sa dokazima o jeziku ovo ti je malo van dokaznog materijala.
Posto vi tracani govorite makedonski normalno je da ste prihvatili i makedonsku kulturu,
ali makedonci nisu prihvatili vas vec srbe kao bolje.
Velika je greska srpskih vlasti i ranije i sada sto prisvajaju makedonce umesto da sa njima grade
zajednicku drzavu i tako eliminisu i vas i siptare i grke.
 
U praavu si, turske bebe i zene su vekovima ubijale Srba koji su od vajkada ziveli na makedionskoj zemlji. Zato su im se Srbi, zajedno sa druga dva oslobodioca, visestruko osvetili.

Mislis na one bebe po pravu prve bracne noci ili one bebe koje su
muslimani pobili da ne postanu makedonci ili srbi?

Ne seri vise, pocinje da smrdi po celoj temi.

- - - - - - - - - -

Dokle vi nesposobni siptari da se krijete iza beba?

Da ste ljudi imali bi malo morala da pisete bar u svoje ime.

Tako ste nesposobni i na bojnom polju kao i na internetu.

Nesposobni i intelektualno i fizicki, beda od ljudi.
 
Kao sto su i Makedonci na svojoj zemlji, a vi bi da ih potracanite,
tacnije vase je to pravo, koje drugim narodima oduzimate.
Posto si poceo sa dokazima o jeziku ovo ti je malo van dokaznog materijala.
Posto vi tracani govorite makedonski normalno je da ste prihvatili i makedonsku kulturu,
ali makedonci nisu prihvatili vas vec srbe kao bolje.
Velika je greska srpskih vlasti i ranije i sada sto prisvajaju makedonce umesto da sa njima grade
zajednicku drzavu i tako eliminisu i vas i siptare i grke.

Вама је добро прошло са заједничким државама :mrgreen:
 
Kakva zajednicka drzava sa Makedoncima,daleko bilo ponovo i kolika vam je ta tzv.vasha drzava i nacija,onolika koliko je Srpski vojnik oslobodio od Turaka 1912 god,prijecemo cak i sa Bugarima biti u savezu nego sa vama prevrtljivcima-Bugari jeste da nas nevole, a ni mi njih ali bar znamo sta nam misle,dok tzv.Makedonci jedne godine su Srbi,druge Bugari,trece nekakvi anticki narodi a sada se ubrzano u Arnautluk pretvaraju....
 
Cedomir Antic cini mi se. Sad ovako prvo sto mi padne na pamet od bas bas srpskih mesta su Kumanovo, Skopska Crna Gora, Porec, od polu srpskih Skoplje, Prilep, od vise bugarskih, Strumica, Bitolj, Veles ( mada je on imao i dosta Srba) itd.

Ma praktično svi istoričari to tvrde...i kada se ističe da je srpska zemlja, ne misli se na postojanje razvijene srpske nacionalne svesti kod tamošnjeg stanovništva, već na istorijske teritorijalne pretenzije i određeni potencijal u srbizaciji stanovništva koje je iste vere, jezički ne isuviše preterano udaljeno i još nekoliko činilaca.

To što si rekao, da; severni obronci Vardarske Makedonije i pripadaju geoistorijskoj oblasti Stare Srbije.
 
Ma praktično svi istoričari to tvrde...i kada se ističe da je srpska zemlja, ne misli se na postojanje razvijene srpske nacionalne svesti kod tamošnjeg stanovništva, već na istorijske teritorijalne pretenzije i određeni potencijal u srbizaciji stanovništva koje je iste vere, jezički ne isuviše preterano udaljeno i još nekoliko činilaca.

To što si rekao, da; severni obronci Vardarske Makedonije i pripadaju geoistorijskoj oblasti Stare Srbije.

Pojam Stara Srbija političko-geografski obični konstrukt iz 19.veka , i ne zna se šta on zapravo predstavlja sem običnog opisa otimanja i ratovanja srednjovekovnih baraba.

Sam pojam je kontradiktoran i zapravo sjebava srpske nacionaliste koje imaju pretenizje , jer ako postoji Stara Srbija onda mora postoja i neka Mlađa Srbija tj.osvojene tuđe oblasti.:D
 
Mislis na one bebe po pravu prve bracne noci ili one bebe koje su
muslimani pobili da ne postanu makedonci ili srbi?

Ne seri vise, pocinje da smrdi po celoj temi.

- - - - - - - - - -

Dokle vi nesposobni siptari da se krijete iza beba?

Da ste ljudi imali bi malo morala da pisete bar u svoje ime.

Tako ste nesposobni i na bojnom polju kao i na internetu.

Nesposobni i intelektualno i fizicki, beda od ljudi.
Ti mora da si jeo bunike. Ili imas visoku temperaturu.
 

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