Историја грчког народа

Да ти ниси осетио потребу да се опет глупираш, не бих се хватао. Имак поштовања према члановима форума који не разумеју енглески.

Узгред, такав типфелер је немогућ. У питању је грешка која је последица незнања.

Kiddo -- I live, sleep, dream, eat, drink, piss, shit and f*ck in English. Can you say that?
 
Random choice: how/why do we know that Vlachic was spoken in Acarnania - as an example?

It's very simple. This language is an endangered language, but it is still spoken in Acarnania by a very small group of people.

The language of Acarnania's Vlachs (Karagounidhes): recording of language under disappearance
https://www.didaktorika.gr/eadd/handle/10442/34870?locale=en

The subject of this thesis is the study of the idiom of Vlach (Karagouniki) language group of Acarnania. Its purpose is the cross-sectional study of the important elements of the Vlach idiom (phonetics-phonology, morphology, syntax, etc.). Additionally, its aim is to record and annotate the vocabulary of this idiom especially in areas where it is of particular interest, namely in the field of onomasiology (anthroponymy and toponymy). The work is based primarily on primary (on the spot) research but also secondary research (reviews) is employed.

Location of Acarnania
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Ancient_Greek_Northern_regions.png

But, why do we know that Vlach was once spoken in a much wider area? The regions of Aetolia, Acarnania, and territories along the coast to the Corinthian gulf were called Small (or Little) Vlachia.

Zef Mirdita, page 257:

Vec od XI. stoljeca bizantski autori i drugi povijesni izvori citavo ovo podrucje tretiraju kao vlasko. Tako se Tesalija (Helada) u pocetku XIII. stoljeca pocinje zvati Velika Vlahija, Etolija i Akarnanija Mala Vlahija itd. Osim tih etnogeografskih naziva postoje Gornja i Donja Vlahija, koje se odnose na Vlahe Pinda i Ahaje. Oni su zapravo posvjedoceni kako na Halkidiku, na planinama Rodopa, na azijskom dijelu Bospora, u Atici, Eubeji, na Peloponezu, tako i na Krfu i drugim Jonskim otocima.

Also, when Stefan Dušan conquered lands all the way up to Duchy of Athens, he called himself "Count of Vlachia."

Let us take a look at another random region, such as Agrafa:

Думата е синонимна на "аграфа" и буквално се превежда като "незаписан", защото османците никога не са покорявали този планински регион (подобно на Стара Черна гора), а основно куцовлашкото му население не фигурирало във фискалните списъци на султана. Местните куцовласи от Аграфа развиват предимно скотовъдна дейност, която поради своята специфика не попада в регистрите на Османската империя, а османските списъци отразяват стопанското състояние на подвластната им територия, а не населението, поради и което местните жители на Аграфа останали незаписани.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ja neznam sta je chudno,sto je bilo i ima ih i sada u velikom broju Romanofonog stanovnishtva na sadasnjoj teritoriji Grcke,pa Slavofoni element je u unutrasnjosti balkanskog poluostrva,pod tim mislim na teritoriju bivshe SFRJ Preovladao tek negde u periodu X-XII Veka n.e,to je jedan od posrednih dokaza da nikakve masivne i masovne seobe Slovena na Balkan nije ni bilo,sadasnji juzni sloveni su tek povrsno Slavizirani potomci ranijeg stanovnistva u najvecem delu.
 
Medieval 'Greci' = Albanians and/or Vlachs (?)

1) Euboea is a 'mosaic' of inhabitants

- In the cities of Euboea, and particularly Chalkis, the number of inhabitants from the West increased, especially with Venetians and Lombard traders, as well as adventurers, who lived in their own settlements. The period was rocked by constant feuds and claims within the ruling class.

- The city of Negroponte, as Chalkis was then known, was highly multicultural, as were, most likely, Karystos and Oreon, where the local Orthodox population, the Latins, Venetians, Lombards and Jews all co-existed.

Boeotia of the Latins

Following the fall of Constantinople to the Latin crusaders in April 1204, Boeotia, along with Attica formed the Duchy of Athens, was organised along the line of the feudal system. The Latin element was mostly concentrated around Athens and Thebes, while the Duchy underwent constant changes of overlords: the Burgundy family of de la Roche, the mercenary Catalan Company, and finally, the Florentine Acciaiuoli family.

The military nature of the new administration is visible, even to the present day, in the Boeotian landscape in the scattered forts of the Latin lords and their powerful castles. There are the symbols of the great and lesser overlords, places of residence and power, places where political decisions were taken. An example of a castle town is Livadeia, where the Catalans, after 1311, when they took power, they gave the city's castle its current appearance.

Franks, Venetians and Catalans in central Greece
https://www.medievalroutes.gr/en/digital-exhibits/franks-venetians-and-catalans-in-central-greece/

(local Orthodox population = Greek Orthodox Toskh Albanians and Greco-Vlachs)

2) David George Hogarth (page 153, "The Nearer East"):
"Boeotia, with Euboea, is largely in the hands of Toskh Albanians..."

3) Demetrios Paschalis noted in his study of the Albanian population of the Cyclades, that they migrated from Karystos on Euboea to Andros at the request of the ruler of the latter island, P. Andrea Zeno (1384-1427) who gave them land because he needed them as farmers and to defend the island. Apostolos Vakalopoulos, however, holds the view that the Albanians settled on this island in the last quarter of the 16th century. Mbiris, on the other hand, dates their arrival to the 17th century on the basis of travel reports. The problem has been resolved by a document dating from the year 1521 in which the ‘Greci’ (= Albanians) of Andros reached an agreement with the ruler of Contessa Entellina in Sicily about the conditions for their resettlement there. Here is part of the document:

"18 settembre, X ind. 1521
Sagali Curbi senior, Antoninus Lopes, Dimitri Serveja, Petrus Lopis, Ioannes Curbi, Michael Musacchi, Nicolaus Gerginus, Teodorus Nicolosi, Ioannes Petta, Petrus Musacchi, Sagali Curbi junior, Georgius Lopis, Angelus Petta junior, Nicolaus Lala, Petrus Lopis minor, Georgius Lopis, Thomas Manali, Dimitri Curbi, Ioannes Custagliorsi, Greci (sic) venientes ab Insula Andriae, partim orientis, presentes coram nobis… Antoninus et consortes, Greci orientales fugientes a dicta Insula, a manibus e servitute Mororum, quibus erant subditi, non volentes sufferre eorum dominium, navigaverunt Siciliam versus…; quod etiam praetendebant accedere ad habitandum casale Comitisse…"

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1971_Jochalas/index.html

The Catalans hoped to profit from the presence of the Albanians, who were good warriors and particularly well known as horsemen. It seems to be the case that the Albanians were permitted to settle in the Duchy of Neopatria and in the northern part of the Duchy of Athens. From another document we learn that in 1350, the Catalans and the Albanians jointly attacked Pteleon, a Venetian military base at the entrance to the Gulf of Pagasitiko:

"1350 die XIV marcii
Capta:
Ad factum damnorum illatorum per illos de Compagna et Albanenses nostris fidelibus Phetelei, rescribatur eis (al bailo, cioè, e ai consiglieri di Eubea) quo gravamur et turbamus de damnis premissis…"
 
Poslednja izmena:
Ма само настави.
Мени се свиђа, нарочито фотографија плеса.

1)
Kao sto smo vec imali priliku da vidimo narodna nosnja Pontijaca (Grka) dolazi od naroda Laza.

Obratiti paznju na fotografije i sta zapravo pise na njima (na francuskom); npr. Lazes, Costume Laze, Danse nationale "Laze". Na mnogim blogovima/sajtovima danasnjih Pontijaca (Grka) se neke od ovih fotografija koriste i prikazuju kao Freedom Fighters of Pontus.









Treba jos dodati i ponoviti da je u zemlji Laza (Lazica / Lasika) crkveni i jedini pisani jezik bio Grcki.





2)
The Arvanites were so dominant in Attica that even the Bavarians who settled in Attica were forced to speak Arvanitika.

The following comes from the book Arvanites written by Kostas Biris in 1960. The actual title of the book in Greek is Αρβανίτες οι Δωριείς του νεότερου Ελληνισμού: ιστορία των Ελλήνων Αρβανιτών.

We read the following on Page 320:

"As for the presence of the Bavarians on the northern outskirts of Athens, the story is as follows: during the first years after Otto's coming to Greece, many of his compatriots decided to come and settle in Athens in the hope that they would find work here to live. However, the competition in the civil professions, both towards the Greek and the other Europeans and, most importantly, towards the Maltese and the Napolitans, has frustrated their predictions. Most were forced to return home, while for the rest and for the Bavarian guard, the "Leadership of the Greek Rule" (Αντιβασιλεία) was forced to give them an agricultural settlement. Indeed, in 1838 estates in Heraklion (Athens) were granted to them by those who had bought it for the Greek state from the Turks and exacted for them a poor settlement around a chapel of Catholic faith to which all of them belonged. They were also given horses and other supplies for the cultivation of their fields. Since they were neither farmers, nor the animals and supplies that were given to them were fit, they failed in their first attempts when Buchon visited them in 1841 during his tour of the northern suburbs of Athens. He predicted that their settlement would dissolve after a few years. However, they themselves, with their prowess and perseverance, denied these predictions. Because they adapted to not only the requirements of their new surroundings, but also to the inhabitants of the surrounding villages, and they have been completely assimilated. They received from their neighbours all the characteristics of the Attica peasant. That is why, even before they completed 100 years from their original establishment and settlement, as seen in Arakli or in the neighboring suburbs the (Bavarian) villagers spoke Arvanitika, and others were astonished to hear German names, although they later found out that they did not even know German."

Sorry for the translation but I tried my best. Anyway here is the original text:

Όσο για την παρουσία των Βαυαρών στα βόρεια περίχωρα της Αθήνας η ιστορία έχει ως εξής: κατά τα πρώτα χρόνια μετά την κάθοδο του Όθωνος στην Ελλάδα, πολλοί συμπατριώτες του απεφάσισαν να έλθουν και να εγκατασταθούν στην Αθήνα με την ελπίδα ότι θα εύρισκαν εδώ εργασία να ζήσουν. Ο συναγωνισμός όμως στα αστικά επαγγέλματα, τόσο προς τους Έλληνας όσο και προς τους άλλους Ευρωπαίους παροίκους και - κυρίως - προς τους Μαλτέζους και τους Ναπολιτάνους, διέψευσε τις προβλέψεις τους. Οι περισσότεροι αναγκάσθηκαν να επιστρέψουν στην πατρίδα τους, ενώ για τους υπόλοιπους, καθώς και για τους απομάχους της βαυαρικής φρουράς, εφρόντισε η Αντιβασιλεία να τους δοθεί αγροτική εγκατάσταση. Πραγματικά, παρεχωρήθησαν σε αυτούς το 1838 κτήματα στο Ηράκλειο (της Αθήνας) από εκείνα που είχε εξαγοράσει το ελληνικό δημόσιο από τους Τούρκουςκαι εκτίσθη για αυτούς ένας φτωχός συνοικισμός γύρω από μιαν εκκλησούλα καθολικού δόγματος στην οποία ανήκαν όλοι. Τους εδόθηκαν επίσης άλογα και άλλα εφόδια για την καλλιέργεια των χωραφιών τους. Επειδή όμως ούτε αυτοί ήσαν γεωργοί, ούτε τα ζώα και τα εφόδια που τους έδωσαν ήταν κατάλληλα, απέτυχαν στις πρώτες προσπάθειές τους ώστε ο Buchon που τους επεσκέφθη το 1841 κατά την περιοδεία του στα βόρεια προάστεια της Αθήνας. προέβλεψε ότι ο συνοικισμός τους θα διαλυόταν ύστερα από μερικά χρόνια. Οι ίδιοι ωστόσο με την φιλοπονία και με την επιμονή τους διέψευσαν τις προβλέψεις του. Γιατί όχι μόνο στις απαιτήσεις της νέας τους επιδόσεως προσαρμόσθησαν αλλά και με τους κατοίκους των γύρω χωριών αφοιμοιώθηκαν τελείως. Και ενώ αυτοί έγιναν η αιτία να διαδοθή σε όλους ο πάνινος κούκος με το γείσο, παρέλαβαν από εκείνους όλα τα άλλα χαρακτηριστικά του χωρικού της Αττικής. Γι' αυτό και προτού συμπληρωθούν ακόμη 100 χρόνια από την αρχική τους εγκατάστασι, βλέποντας κανείς στο Αράκλι ή στα γειτονικά προάστεια χωρικούς να μιλούν αρβανίτικα, με κατάπληξη άκουε μεταξύ τους γερμανικά επώνυμα, αν και διεπίστωνε ύστερα ότι δεν ήξευραν ύστερα ούτε λέξι γερμανική.

από το βιβλίο του Κώστα Μπίρη - Αρβανίτες, οι δωριείς του νεώτερου ελληνισμού, Αθήνα 1960, σελίδα 320.


 
Poslednja izmena:
in the Sardinian language the word for 'language' is limba, while the word for 'water' is 'abba'.
Labio-velars become plain labials (limba versus lingua, "language" and abba versus acua, "water").

На некој старој теми о Власима овог форума ја сам постовала изузетну лингвистичку студију о предлатинским језицима, у којима је апа- вода на сабијском језику постала аква на латинском, као што је сабијски број патру (четири) постао "quatro".

Сложиће се Прави Влах да и апа и патру постоје у савременом влашком језику. А ја се слажем с њим ("t doesn't mean that the Vlachs are particularly related to the Sardinians.) јер исти термин за воду-"апа" тада нађох у речнику старопруског језика.
 
На некој старој теми о Власима овог форума ја сам постовала изузетну лингвистичку студију о предлатинским језицима, у којима је апа- вода на сабијском језику постала аква на латинском, као што је сабијски број патру (четири) постао "quatro".

Сложиће се Прави Влах да и апа и патру постоје у савременом влашком језику. А ја се слажем с њим ("t doesn't mean that the Vlachs are particularly related to the Sardinians.) јер исти термин за воду-"апа" тада нађох у речнику старопруског језика.

Da li mozes da postavis tu studiju opet? Hvala.

[In Giorgis Exarchos's book on the Vlachs, it says that Peloponnese was also known as Apia, derived from Apa - the Vedic Sanskrit and Vlach words for water.

I found this in the chapter Ολίγα για τους Κουπατσαραίους και τους Μανιάτες / A little bit about Kupatshari and Maniates of his book.]
 
Poslednja izmena:
На некој старој теми о Власима овог форума ја сам постовала изузетну лингвистичку студију о предлатинским језицима, у којима је апа- вода на сабијском језику постала аква на латинском, као што је сабијски број патру (четири) постао "quatro".

Сложиће се Прави Влах да и апа и патру постоје у савременом влашком језику. А ја се слажем с њим ("t doesn't mean that the Vlachs are particularly related to the Sardinians.) јер исти термин за воду-"апа" тада нађох у речнику старопруског језика.

Ма не. Апа (вода) у румунском, итд., је једноставно балкански облик латинске речи aqua са истим значењем. Ради се о редовитој гласовној измени од латинског qu и ct у румунском п и пт. Сличне промене се налазе и у другим романским језицима, који сви потичу од латинског. Ево неколико примера

латински... румунски... српски

pectus...piept...груди

expectare... aşteptare ... очекивати

equa... iapă... кобила

аqua...apă...вода
 
La cote orientale de la mer Noire (Moyen Âge). Histoire
http://blacksea.ehw.gr/forms/fLemmaBodyExtended.aspx?lemmaid=10682&boithimata_State=&kefalaia_State=

The peoples of the region

- FRENCH: Vers la fin de l’époque antique, le littoral oriental du Pont Euxin était peuplé par les Ziques, les Sanigues, les Abasges, les Apsiles, les Missiminiens et les Lazes. La question des origines de ces peuples, celle de leurs frontières et celle des modifications de ces frontières sont toujours parmi les plus discutées de l’histoire de cette région. Le territoire des Abasges s’étendait au Nord jusqu’au fleuve Psou. La zone des contreforts était occupée par les Apsiles et par leurs voisins immédiats, les Missiminiens. En ce qui concerne la frontière sud, qui séparait les Apsiles et les Lazes, les opinions sont très diverses. Au-déla de Psou habitaient les Sanigues et les Ziques (Dzhigetes des sources géorgiennes médiévales ou Sadzes des sources tardives).

- ENGLISH: Towards the end of the ancient period, the eastern coastline of Pontus was populated by the Ziques, Sanigues, Abasges, Apsiles, Missiminians and Lazes. The question of the origins of these peoples, of their borders and of the changes in these frontiers, is still among the most discussed in the history of this region. The territory of the Abasges extended north to the Psou River. The foothills area was occupied by the Apsiles and their immediate neighbors, the Missiminians. With regard to the southern border, which separated the Apsiles and the Lazes, the opinions are very diverse. Beyond Psou inhabited the Sanigues and Ziques (Dzhigetes medieval Georgian sources or Sadzes late sources).



- FRENCH: Après le Traité de Dara (561/2), la Lazique appartint à Byzance, et l’Ibérie fut soumise à la Perse. La Transcaucasie Occidentale est devenue la zone principale où s’est exercée l’influence byzantine.

- ENGLISH: After the Treaty of Dara (561/2), Lazica belonged to 'Byzantium', and Iberia was subject to Persia. Western Transcaucasia became the main zone where the 'Byzantine' influence was exerted.




- FRENCH: Aux Ve-VIe s. la confrontation religieuse faisait partie de la lutte entre Byzance et la Perse. Les Lazes choisissaient tantôt le christianisme, tantôt le zoroastrisme, suivant la situation politique. Le roi des Lazes, Gobazes, pendant son séjour à Constantinople en 465/466, rendit visite à Daniel le Stylite. Procope s’étend peu sur la vie religieuse. D’autres sources : Jean Malalas, la Chronique Pascale, et plus tard Théophane le Chronographe, nous apprennent que les Lazes ont été convertis en 522-523, sous Justin Ier. Le roi des Lazes Ztathius a été baptisé à Constantinople (Agathias, III 15, 3). Quant aux monuments religieux d’Archéopolis, ville principale des Lazes, ils n’ont pas de datations bien établies.

- ENGLISH: In the fifth and sixth centuries religious confrontation was part of the struggle between 'Byzantium' and Persia. The Lazes sometimes chose Christianity, sometimes Zoroastrianism, according to the political situation. The king of the Lazes, Gobazes, during his stay in Constantinople in 465/466, visited Daniel the Stylite. Procope spends little on religious life. Other sources: Jean Malalas, the Chronicle Pascale, and later Theophane the Chronograph, teach us that the Lazes were converted in 522-523, under Justin I. The king of the Lazes Ztathius was baptized in Constantinople (Agathias, III 15, 3). As for the religious monuments of Archeopolis, the main city of the Lazes, they do not have well-established dates.




There are of course no mention in the early historical sources of Pontians, Pontian-Greeks, Pontian-Hellenes among the native peoples of the region and adjacent districts. The Greek-speakers of the region became the converted (Orthodox) Lazes (who indeed continued to speak their native tongue), but also other native tribes that were converted to Orthodoxy.
 
For the Albanians (Arvanites) of Attica, Greek is a foreign language. За Албанце (Арваните) из Атике, грчки је страни језик.













Chimariotes are Albanians of Liapi (Lab) tribe, and speak only the Albanian language.



(Верујем да је можда било неких арванитовлашких елемената међу овим химариотима и осталима у овој општој области.)

 
Poslednja izmena:
Udeo Slovena, Albanaca i Vlaha na etnogezi Grka je velik, ali tvrditi da Grka do 19. veka nije ni bilo u Grckoj je debilno.

Nikad nisam osporavao da je grkofona bilo u 19. veku - bilo ih je i ranije. Grcki je bio 'Zajednicki' jezik (Common tongue) pravoslavnih hriscana.

Da li se ti grkofoni mogu smatrati etnickim Grcima ako:
1) Ti grkofoni pricaju dva ili vise jezika;
2) Sami sebe nazivaju Romejima (= Rimljanima), ili jednostavno hriscanima;
3) Imaju iste nosnje, obicaje, itd. kao i Cincari, ili Arvaniti, ili Sloveni (zavisno od regiona);
4) Cak i kao 'jednojezicni' grkofoni - da li su oni etnicki Grci ako su im bliski preci govorili neke druge jezike? (Da li su stanovnici Latinske Amerike etnicki Spanci ili Portugalci, ili recimo stanovnici Haitija etnicki Francuzi?)

Moderna Grcka je zemlja rodjena iz mesavine raznih regionalnih etnickih zajednica, uglavnom "sakrivenih" pod obrazcom grkofone pravoslavne hriscanske crkve.

 
Poslednja izmena:
This comes from The Turkish Dialects of Trabzon: Their Phonology and Historical ..., Volume 2, By Bernt Brendemoen - Page 23, footnote 21.

It appears that the identification of the Laz with the Lezghians in some documents was a confusion that went all the way back to Arab sources. Below is a quote (in French) from Abu-al Fida (1273-1332) regarding the ethnic makeup of Trabzon in the 13th c., as well as the nearby mountainous region





Translation of the quote (note Lezghians=Lazes):

"Trabzon is a famous port. Ibn Sa'id says that most of its inhabitants are Lezghians. To the south-southeast of Trabzon is the mountain of Lezghians, which is called Mountain of Languages because of the many idioms spoken."
 

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