ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

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Tema: ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

  1. #1
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    Podrazumevano ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

    Ko se borio za nas,a ne samo za jugoslaviju?
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  2. #2
    Zainteresovan član
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    Josip Broz Tito

  3. #3
    Aktivan član matijakupa (avatar)
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    Citat Original postavio Propki Pogledaj poruku
    Ko se borio za nas,a ne samo za jugoslaviju?
    definiraj "nas"!?

  4. #4
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    Citat Original postavio matijakupa Pogledaj poruku
    definiraj "nas"!?
    SRBE,SRBIJU
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  5. #5
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    Da razmislim..

  6. #6
    Aktivan član Loengrin (avatar)
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    Citat Original postavio Propki Pogledaj poruku
    Ko se borio za nas,a ne samo za jugoslaviju?

    Draža naravno. Borio se upravo za nas i nije ubio nijednog srbina, prava i nepodmitljiva istorija odavno je posvedočila.

    Za razliku od Tita koji je pobio i progonio na hiljade čestitih građana Srbije, čija je krivica bila samo ta što su voleli svoju zemlju i slavili Krsnu Slavu. Sve dok nije iz straha za sebe i svoju vlast naredio svim potčinjenima da dalje odmazde prestanu. I to je argumentovano od strane nepodmitljivog sudije - autentične istoriografije - jasno posvedočeno.

  7. #7
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    Citat Original postavio HECTORIUS Pogledaj poruku


    Da razmislim..
    Jel Draza.

  8. #8
    Zainteresovan član US MARSHAL (avatar)
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    naravno Josip Broz Tito

  9. #9
    Elita
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    Brus li bi ih obojicu polomio ko pi.ke!


  10. #10
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  11. #11
    Aktivan član Loengrin (avatar)
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    Nema uvrede, Đeneral Draža je za sada u prednosti - 5 : 4.

    Blaga prednost ali ipak, zaslužena, ispravna.

  12. #12
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  13. #13
    Aktivan član Loengrin (avatar)
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    Podrazumevano Re: ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

    Citat Original postavio Milanne Pogledaj poruku
    Brus li bi ih obojicu polomio ko pi.ke!

    Pa znate šta? Brus Li je što se tiče Broza, imao priliku za to, samo je nije iskoristio (ili zato što nije doživeo Brozovu smrt ili možda namerno nije hteo), dok za Dražu priliku nije ni imao, jer 1946. godine nije još ni bio rođen.

    Pa šta ćete...

  14. #14
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    Podrazumevano Re: ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

    Da je draza pobedio,danas ne bi bilo ideologije velike srbije,jer bi vec bila realizovana.Moj glas je otisao drazi
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  15. #15
    Iskusan ljuta_mamba (avatar)
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    Podrazumevano Re: ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

    Citat Original postavio Loengrin Pogledaj poruku
    Draža naravno. Borio se upravo za nas i nije ubio nijednog srbina, prava i nepodmitljiva istorija odavno je posvedočila.

    Za razliku od Tita koji je pobio i progonio na hiljade čestitih građana Srbije, čija je krivica bila samo ta što su voleli svoju zemlju i slavili Krsnu Slavu. Sve dok nije iz straha za sebe i svoju vlast naredio svim potčinjenima da dalje odmazde prestanu. I to je argumentovano od strane nepodmitljivog sudije - autentične istoriografije - jasno posvedočeno.
    tu grdno gresis,cetnici iz uze srbije,nisu nikada u zivotu videli nikoga drugog van svog sreza,i ubijali su upravo srbe za koje se sumnjalo da su komunisti a neretko i vidjenije seoske domacine,kradje radi,narocito pri kraju rata 1944 i 1945
    zapadna srbija od valjeva i rudnika do sjenice i bajine baste,puna je takvih primera
    nije narod izmislio trojke i cetnicku gibanicu

  16. #16
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    Citat Original postavio ljuta_mamba Pogledaj poruku
    tu grdno gresis,cetnici iz uze srbije,nisu nikada u zivotu videli nikoga drugog van svog sreza,i ubijali su upravo srbe za koje se sumnjalo da su komunisti a neretko i vidjenije seoske domacine,kradje radi,narocito pri kraju rata 1944 i 1945
    zapadna srbija od valjeva i rudnika do sjenice i bajine baste,puna je takvih primera
    nije narod izmislio trojke i cetnicku gibanicu
    a sta mislis zasto su krali?Mira da su svaki dan dobijali pomoc od stranih drzava.
    Normalno da ce ubijati komuniste,njima je i bio cilj da pobiju sve cetnike,pa moraju prvo sigurnu pretnju da uklone(tito je napadaio samo cetnike ),dok su nemci i jedne i druge.
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  17. #17
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    Podrazumevano Re: ko je bolji,draza ili tito?

    Draža je bio po obrazovanju podoficir /podnarednik/ što je mentalno uvek i ostao. Napredovanje u karijeri do čina potpiukovnika, pred WW2, može da zahvali isključivo ženidbi sa ćerkom pukovnika Jevrema Brankovića koji nije štedeo uticaj da zeta što dalje progura. Draža je inače bio svaštar. Niti na jednom formacijskom mestu se nije zadržao duže od 6 meseci, a tast je uvek obezbedjivao opstanak. Već negde od 1930 godine je evidentirana i njegova zavisnost od alkohola.

    Shodno svojim intelektualnim sposobnostima se ponašao tokom WW2 u Jugoslaviji. Istorijski trenutak je višestruko prevazilazio njegovo obrazovanje i inteligenciju. Kad se tome doda i prepečenica, rezultat je neminovno 10:0 za protivnika.

    Draža je završio podoficirsku školu a tokom Balkanskih ratova se negde dobro tukla njegova jedinica pa su svi djuture unapredjeni u čin poručnika. Nije završio vojnu akademiju već je napredovao kao ratni kadar. Nešto kao Mladić. Nema završenu Ratnu školu a ima čin generalpukovnika.

    Draža je čak jedno vreme predavao na vojnoj akademiji pa je to možda razlog zabune. Vojnu akademiju Kraljevine Jugoslavije nije nikada niti pohadjao niti završio.

    Postoji dokument - pismo načelniku Akademije u vreme kad je Draža tamo bio predavač. U pismu grupa kadeta traži da se potpukovnik Mihailović udalji iz nastave jer na časove dolazi pijan.

    Jednom podoficir uvek podoficir, to je poznato pravilo u vojsci. Bilo je to očigledno i kod Miloševićevog načelnika generalštaba generala Ojdanića. Čovek je dugo bio podoficir i, očigledno, nikad nije uspeo da postane /mentalno/ oficir i ako je imao čin generala armije.

    U tehnici je to takodje poznato. Ko jedno vreme provede na poslu kao tehničar nikad više ne može da postzane inženjer, i pored mnogo slučajeva da tehničari nekako steknu diplomu inženjera. Medjutim uvek po načinu razmišljanja ostanu tehničari, da ne kažem crtači.

    Zato je Draža onako i prošo u WW2, jer intelektualno nije bio dorastao Slobodanu Jovanoviću i Momčilu Ninčiću koji su ga sve vreme "gurali" prema Nemcima i Italijanima, pa čak i prema ustašama.

    Tokom aprilskih čarki 1941,Draža je bio načelnik štaba Dunavske divizije a poznato je da ta formacija na Nemce nije opalila jedan jedini metak. Na dan kapitulacije štab se nalazio u Doboju, a Draža se zatekao negde u okolini Tuzle. To je 50 kilometara od Loznice, a Loznica je manje od 50 kilometara od Valjeva. Prema sopstvenom kazivanju on se već 13.04.1941. godine uputio prema Srbiji, a na Ravnu Goru se popeo 13.05. Znači načelniku štaba divizije je trebalo mesec dana da predje manje od 100 kilometara i to u dobrim uslovima na terenu, jer tu Nemaca još uvek nije bilo. Komično je čitati njegove današnje biografe kad opisuju "poduhvat" grupe oficira na čelu sa Dražom koji su 3 dana "forsirali Drinu kod Zvornika", kad se zna da to svako dete može da prepliva za 15 minuta.

    O njegovoj ideji da nastavi borbu protiv okupatora najbolje govori podatak da je ta grupa vojnika i oficira koje se uputila prema Srbiji brojala u odredjenim trenutcima i do 150 ljudi. Medjutim pošto nije imao ko da im kaže šta da rade i kako da se ponašaju, grupa se rasipala /ljudi otišli kućama/ pa se jezgro Prvog pokreta otpora u porobljenoj Evropi svelo na desetak oficira i podoficira koji su se 13, 14 ili 15.05 popeli na Ravnu Goru.

    Kako na kraju istina uvek nekako pronadje sebi put, obožavaoci lika i dela djenerala Čiče biće razočarani kada bude objavljeno zašto je Mihailović izabrao baš Ravnu Goru za svoj prvi smeštaj.

    Poznato je, ali ozbiljni istoričari nisu to nikad želeli da objave, da je Draža nekoliko godina pre rata bio u švalerskoj kombinaciji sa ženom majora Aleksandra Mišića /snahom vojvode Mišića/, pa nije neregularno pretpostaviti da je Ravnu Goru izabrao kako bi se što više približio ljubavnici, s obzirom da je to nekih 15 kilometara razdaljine /Mišići su u Struganiku/. Zato je valjda već 16.05. u Struganik poslao jednog podoficira da vidi šta je sa Aleksandrom i da sa njim uspostavi kontakt, a posle nekoliko dana se i sam tamo pojavio. Na njegovu žalost Aleksandar Mišić je bio živ i zdrav. Naravno, ovo je samo moje mišljenje koje ne mogu da dokumentujem, ali biće jednog dana i neki papirić.

    Za razliku od Draže koji stvarno tih dana nije imao ni najmanju predstavu šta da se radi, KPJ je u Sarajevu već 15.04. izdala proglas u kome poziva narod da se pripremi za otpor okupatoru, a 01.05. izdaje poznati Zagrebački proglas u kome se jasno pozivaju narodi Jugoslavije da se pripreme za ustanak protiv okupatora. Tokom maja meseca KPJ je već imala desetine formiranih i naoružanih partizanskih odreda širom Jugoslavije. Poznat je slučaj da je skoro kompletan komitet KP za Zagreb već početkom juna meseca bio pod oružjem na Papuku. Nekoliko partizanskih odeda je u Srbiji formirano već krajem aprila.

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    Draza :

    "Die serbischen Tschetniks von Dragoljub Draža Mihailović und das Serbische
    Freiwilligenkorps von Dimitrije Ljotic kollaborierten im Jugoslawischen Bürgerkrieg
    1941-1945 mit den Besatzertruppen der Achse."


    Cetnici Draze mihajlovica i "srpski dobrovoljacki korpus" Dimitrija Ljotica
    saradjivali su u jugoslovenskom gradjanskom ratu 1941-1945 sa okupatorskim snagama."


    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollaboration

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tito :

    Najvisi drzavnici iz 128 zemalja sveta bili su na Titovoj sahrani, kraljevi, princevi, predsednici,
    premijeri, ministri vanjskih poslova.

    Titova sahrana bila je najposecenija sahrana jednog drzavnika u XX veku.



  19. #19
    Veoma poznat Koča (avatar)
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    evo cuvenog istoricara, vikipediste

  20. #20
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    No. 41
    BRITISH REPORT ON CHETNIK COLLABORATION

    W. O. 202,132 A,X/L 01206

    PART THREE
    SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION

    A. BOSNIA
    1) On 3 July 1943, 80 rifles of the Zenica Chetniks (v. Pt. II A) which had been taken from them by the Germans, were returned to them with the permission of the German GOC.
    2) On 4 July 1943, the Chetnik forces of Maj. JAKIC (v. Pt.
    II A 3) are reported as collaborating with the Germans in the
    area of Visegrad.
    3) On 12 July 1943, it is reported that the majority of the Ozren Chetniks (v. Pt. II A) are fighting on the German side.
    4) On 22 August 1943, it is reported that in North-Eastern Bosnia the Chetnik forces of KEROVIC are fighting with the Germans against the Partisans.
    B. DALMATIA
    Information from these sources on Dalmatia refers to the southern area, especially to Dubrovnik, whose Chetniks were part of the Hercegovina Chetnik organization. This information is therefore treated under the next heading.
    C. HERCEGOVINA
    1) On 10 June 1943, it is reported that the Chetniks in the Mostar area, commanded by PER.OVIC, are showing a loyal attitude towards Germans, and declare that they arc not connected with MIHAILOVIC, they are merely concerned with the preservation of Serbian lives and goods, not with resistance to the occupiers.
    2) On 20 June 1943 it is reported that the Chetniks in the Bileca—Gacko area are being provided with food and weapons by the Italians.
    3) On 27 June 1943, it is reported that on 20 June, Chetniks were strolling round Trebinje, on the most cordial terms with the Italians.
    4) On 31 July 1943 it is reported that MILORAD POPOVIC (v, Pt II C) received 1,260,000 kuna from the Italians.
    5) In August it is reported that the Chetniks of VIDACIC" in the Bileca area are collaborating with the Germans against the Partisans.
    6) On 14 August, it is reported that PEROVIC is in command of all Chetniks in Dubrovnik area.
    7) On 15 August, it is reported that the Chetnik comamnder Capt. MILOS KURES (v. Ft. II C), commanding the forces round Trebinje, is seeking German collaboration, offering 1,000—1,500 men to fight against the Partisans.
    8) On 15 August it is reported that BACOVIC (v. Pt. II C) has approached the German Consul-General in Dubrovnik with the aim of starting negotiations with the German QC Mostar, He stated that he was empowered by the Chetnik leaders to do this. He stated that the Chetniks set great value on collaboration with the Germans, but do not wish the fact of this collaboration to be generally known.
    9) On 16 August it is reported that JEVDJEVIC^ on his return from Rome has asked Abwehr in Dubrovnik for an early interview with a German plenipotentiary.

    10) On 20 August, it is reported that JEVDJEVIC and MIHAILOVTC are not in agreement on the question of collaboration with the Germans.
    11) On 31. August, it is reported that JEVDJEVIC has offered the German GOC Prinz Eugen Div., Gen. Oberkamp, 5,000—6,000 Chetniks for fighting against the Partisans. He asked for German official approval. Gen. OBERKAMP referred the matter to higher quarters.

    12) On 12 September, it is reported that Chetniks led by SAMARDJIC (v. Pt. II C) and MILORAD POPOVIC are fighting with the Germans against the Partisans in the Gacko area.
    13) On 14 September it is reported that PEROVIC has offered the Germans armed collaboration of his forces against the Partisans, and accepted the Independent State of Croatia as being sovereign over Dalmatia after the Italian capitulation.
    14) On 9 September instructions were given to Abwher in Croatia to further by all possible means their connection with JEVDJEVIC. The importance of a direct link with MIHAILOVIC'S circle was most strongly emphasised.
    15) On 14 September it is reported that, by agreement of the GOC-in-C and Gen. PHLEPPS, the 2nd. Rcgt. is trying through PEROVIC to arrange with JEVDJEVIC for the employment of Chetniks against the Communists.
    16) On 15 September the 2nd. SS regt. was seeking contact with JEVDJEVIC, who was then in Sushak.
    17) On 21 September, orders were given by the Germans to suspend the arrests of prominent Chetniks which had been undertaken on the grounds that negotiations were in progress with JEVDJEVIC, and that the Chetniks had refused to fight with the Italians against the Germans. The Chetniks had so far maintained a loyal attitude.
    18) In September it is reported that HIMMLER'S personal representative has agreed to a proposal for a meeting between the Sichcrheitsdienst (Security Service) and JEVDJEVIC in Zagreb.
    D. MONTENEGRO
    1) On 11 May, it is reported that the political leader of the Chetniks is Gen. DJUKANOVIC, and that their military leaders are STANISIC, DJURISIC, BACOVIC, LASIC and RUSIC. (v Pt. II D).
    2) On 14 May, DJURISIC stated that he was willing to fight with the Germans against the Communists, and would then place himself afterwards at the disposal of the Germans.s
    3) On 27 September, it is reported that the Germans were in touch with STANISIC and DJUKANOVIC, who feared that the Partisans would deprive them of the arms which they had hoped to take over from the Italians.
    4) On 13 September, it is reported that Chetniks of DJURISIC, who had been released by the Germans after the May fighting, were in occupation of the Kolashin—Berane—Bijelo Polje area, under MILAN RADOVIC and DIMITRIJE KALATOVIC.
    5) On 9 September, it was reported that STANISIC and DJUKANOVIC were both near Danilovgrad. STANISIC was willing to join with the Montenegrin Nationalists collaborating with the Germans.
    6) On 31 October, it is reported that LASIC is in command of 2,000 Chetniks near Lijeva Rijeka.
    7) On 21 November it is reported that LASIC (v. Pt. II D) has asked the Germans for help in order to hold Ubli against the Partisans.
    8) On 6 December it is reported that LASIC is collaborating with the Abwehr in a sabotage undertaken in the Andrijevica— Kolasin—Podgorica area, providing 400 men for this purpose
    E. SERBLA AND SANDJAK
    1) On 19 June 1943 it is reported that LUKACEVIC (v. Pt. II D) is leading 2,500 Chetniks against the Partisans in the area Kovac Planina—Prijepolje—Pljevlja—Priboj.
    2) On 5 November it was reported that MIHAILOVIC ordered all Chetnik units to collaborate loyally with the Germans.
    3) On... it was reported that these orders had referred only to Montenegro.

    4) On 3 December it is reported that a secret treaty was made between the German military authorities and Maj. LUKACEVIC. All hostilities were to cease between the Chetniks and the German, Bulgarian or NEDIC forces. All were to collaborate against the Partisans. The Germans were to have the Supreme Command and to supply the Chetniks with arms. The treaty was to extend to West Serbia, Sandjak and North Montenegro.
    5) On 10 December it was reported that negotiations are going on between MIHAILOVIC and NEDIC.
    NOTE
    For proof of close relations of MIHAILOVIC with BACOVIC, JEVDJEVIC, LUKAGEVIC, LASIC, DJURISIC, STANISIC and DJUKANOVIC, see Part Two, sections C and D.
    For examples of Chetnik leaders collaborating with the Germans with approval of MIHAILOVIC, but at the same time denying to the Germans that they were connected with MIHAILOVIC, see Part Two, section A.

    ...........

  21. #21
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    Mikhailovic's Collaboration with the Germans

    Excerpts of Testimony of Walter Warlimont, taken at
    Numberg, Germany, 16 October 194-5, 1600-1745, by Maj.
    Gen. William J. Donovan. Also present: Pvt. Clair Van Vleck,
    Court Reporter.


    Q. I show you a paper dated the 25th of January '43,* and ask
    if you can identify it; if your initial is on it; and if you can
    inform us of any matters relating to this that do not appear in
    the document itself?
    A. It is a telegram set up and sent off by subsection four of the
    Division for National Defense, which does not bear my signature. The
    signature which appears at the bottom on the right side, is that of a
    Captain who was with this section, but whose name I cannot recall at
    this moment.
    Q. You. just note that down and let us know when it occurs to you.
    A. Yes. I know the other signature too, but I cannot say whom it
    belongs to, this blue one. I know the signature. The telegram is directed
    to the German Foreign Office and repeats the contents of another
    telegram which the commanding general of Serbia had sent to the
    OKW. This telegram of the commanding general of Serbia reads: That
    the President of the Serbian Cabinet on his own initiative has proposed
    to arrest six hundred former Serbian officers and to transport them, as
    prisoners of war, to Germany. Those officers are undesirable, as
    followers of Tito, Mikhailovic, and as supporters of rumor propaganda
    and unrest in the country. The telegram further reads that it is
    intended to carry through the undertaking as soon as possible. The proposition
    of the President of the Council complies with the intentions of the German
    commanding general.
    Q. I would like to ask you a question on that paper. Do you know of your
    own knowledge or, if not of your own knowledge, has it even been reported to
    you that Mikhaiiovic was working with the local German commanders in the
    field?
    A. Yes. That was known.
    Q. For how long a period did he do that?
    A. I have to think of that to give you an exact answer, but I am certain that it
    started several times and was discontinued several times; taken up again and
    lasted at least for several months each time.
    Q. Did he do that in order to obtain aid in fighting the Tito partisans ?
    A. We never knew why he did it. Hitler always believed that he only did it
    because he was short of ammunition and tried to persuade the German
    officers, who always were inclined to believe in a nationalist like him, that he
    was going to support them, but Hitler said, "He will always remain a friend of
    England and a foe of Germany, so it is entirely wrong to go with him." He
    didn't want it.
    Q. What was your opinion about it?
    A. I couldn't form any opinion of my own, in spite of being two or three
    times in Serbia. I always got the opinion of the officers down there who
    believed in the things and wanted to continue with it.
    Q. Had Tito ever given assistance to the Germans? A. So far
    as I know, no.
    Q. Do you know whether or not Tito had ever fought Mikhaiiovic?
    A. Fought him?
    Q. Yes; had he had battles with Mikhaiiovic?
    A. It was hard to reco'gnize who fought who in that country, but 1 am
    convinced that parts of both parties fought each other several times.
    . Q. It was Hitler's considered opinion that on any occasion when Mikhaiiovic
    sought the assistance of the Germans, it was as a temporary expedient?
    A. As a temporary expedient?
    Q. As a temporary means of getting over a moment when he didn't have
    ammunition.

    WARLIMONT
    A. Yes.- He only looked at it like that, and if Hitler had discovered before
    that such a connection, between the subordinates of Mikhailovic on one side
    and German officers on the other side, was going on, he would have prevented
    it. It may be of some interest to you, General, that Hitler's respect for Tito was
    very high and that in the last stages of the war he said several times that Tito
    should be an example to every German general. That is specially interesting
    for us as General Staff officers because Hitler wanted to demonstrate by this
    means the difference between the rough field general, as he thought Tito to be,
    and the thinking European generals, as we saw ourselves to be.
    Q. Do you mean by that, that he preferred the Rommel type of soldier rather
    than the intellectual type of general?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And he compared Tito to Rommel?
    A. No, more like Schoerner.
    Q. What did the German Generals think of Tito?
    A. He certainly was a strong man who came through all difficulties and lost
    a great number of his men, and in spite of that, always was there again, but
    politically he was entirely opposed to our kind of thinking.
    ......

  22. #22
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    Citat Original postavio Koča Pogledaj poruku
    evo cuvenog istoricara, vikipediste




  23. #23
    Elita
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    Citat Original postavio Loengrin Pogledaj poruku
    Pa znate šta? Brus Li je što se tiče Broza, imao priliku za to, samo je nije iskoristio (ili zato što nije doživeo Brozovu smrt ili možda namerno nije hteo), dok za Dražu priliku nije ni imao, jer 1946. godine nije još ni bio rođen.

    Pa šta ćete...
    Eto, vidis da su komunsiti samo hteli da postede Drazu muka.

  24. #24
    Elita
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    Citat Original postavio HECTORIUS Pogledaj poruku



    Hektoriuse, to su ili nacisticki ili komunisticki agenti; nemoj da postavljas ovde kojekakve podmetacine!

  25. #25
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    Citat Original postavio Milanne Pogledaj poruku
    Hektoriuse, to su ili nacisticki ili komunisticki agenti; nemoj da postavljas ovde kojekakve podmetacine!
    Doziveo sam ovde vise puta da mi za jednu te istu sliku 1 korisnik kaze
    kako on ZNA da su na njoj premaskirani partizani, a drugi kako
    ZNA da je slika falsifikat.

    Stvarno nisam znao kome da verujem.


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