Tradicionalni Aikido

Volim i ja da razgovaram, ali kad počnem učestalo da citiram sam sebe, da ponavljam ono što sam već rekao, vreme je da se promeni tema.
Zbog toga je zajednički trening katalizator koji pomaže da se dođe do usaglašavanja mišljenja :)

Kod Dragana su ti uvek otvorena vrata, samo mu se najavi, :)

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Baš zato što sam hteo da napravim jasnu razliku između nekog KO ZNA i nekog KO IMA PAPIR sam i napisao 'kvalifikovan', a ne 'sertifikovan'. I sam imam nekoliko takvih papira i ne smatram ih vrednim niti sebe stručnjakom. Čudo jedno koliko je, naizgled, ozbiljnih ljudi u svetu borenja, sa ozbiljnim sertifikatima, koji su obični cirkuzanti, prodavci magle, maštari..
Kada sam pitao o tvojim kvalifikacijama, zanimalo me je da li sebe smatraš zaista stručnim da nekoga nešto naučiš,nisam mislio samo na tvoje tehničko znanje..
Mi se bavimo borenjem, a to je ozbiljna stvar koja daleko prevazilazi tehniku. Navala adrenalina, 'tunel vizija', gubitak finih motoričkih pokreta, 'zamrzavanje'.. To su pravi problemi sa kojima se ljudi susreću u konfliktu/borbi sa drugi ljudskim bićem!
Geoffu Thompsonu je trebalo 15-ak godina 'na vratima' klubova i pae stotina borbi da uopšte počne da razmišlja (piše i definiše) o tome..
Varg Freeborn je odrastao u nasilju, borio se od malena da (bukvalno) preživi. Disfunkcionalna porodica, loše društvo, par godina u zatvoru.. da bi stekao dovoljno iskustva da priča o tome i da uči druge.
Rory Miller je godinama vežbao grub i oštar tradicionalni stil jujutsua, radio 'na vratima', a potom godinama kao zatvorski čuvar. Tek onda je počeo da piše i podučava druge..
Sličnu priču i background imaju i Lee Morisson, Craig Douglas, Kelly Mccann, Mark Denny, Dennis Martin..
Kakvo je tvoje iskustvo po tom pitanju? Kako si ti naučio da reaguješ na ove faktore?

Intuicija, :)
 
No da se vratim pojedinostima Aikido-a, malo tekstova o pojedinim majstorima, Hiroši Tada, utisci Elisa Amdura o Tadi:

Tada sensei was an icy, formidable presence when I trained in the 1970's. He has a face like a blade, with piercing black eyes. To my eyes, he was the purest budoka of any of the Aikikai shihan. From what others have told me, he has close friends, particularly in Italy, and a fine marriage before his wife's untimely death. He is a cultured and well-educated man, by no means an ascetic. All of that aside -- or perhaps, better said, in parallel -- he is utterly focused on his own path. Although he is a meticulous instructor, breaking down techniques in fine detail, somehow one has no sense that he teaches as a vocation: rather, he makes himself available for others to learn from as he pursues his own way.

Tada sensei has developed a solo training regimen, called ki no renma, a set of exercises coordinated with specific meditation and breathing practices, which he developed from his studies with Nakamura Tempu, the creator of the system called shin shin toitsu. Nakamura was, as most readers probably know, also the teacher of Tohei Koichi. Tada sensei never taught these methods at the Aikikai -- to the best of my knowledge, he teaches a course once a year in Italy, as well as regularly at his private dojo in a Zen temple in the Kichijoji section of Tokyo. I've never seen this training, but I believe his ability to stay absolutely centered throughout his techniques, even with someone hanging on his arm in ryote-mochi iriminage, with their feet literally off the ground, can very likely be attributed to his daily practice of these methods.

Tada sensei is one of those slender people whose body is not merely thin; rather, he seems as if all superfluous flesh was pared away. He does not wait to be attacked -- he initiates most techniques, with his arms expansive, and very slightly curved. He moves in a glide in your direction, and one strikes or grabs him as much in self-protection as in a self-initiated attack. In both my memory and in viewing of films, there is always a reciprocal balancing of energies on both sides of his body; you can see it in his legs and how he counter-balances with his arms as well. I never can recall him loading his body weight forwards or leaning back.

He has a very integrated body: whenever I made contact with him, he occupied the space that I attempted to take. He could accept my force and give it back to me so that I was unbalanced on contact. Once contact of any kind was initiated, he continued his glide, uninterrupted, to be at the perfect angle to control and execute the technique he desired, without any collision whatsoever. There was always a sense that he was cutting through me. Many aikidoka try to position themselves advantageously, through "getting to" the right angle. This is a two dimensional tai-sabaki -- as you shift your feet, you angle in to the opponent's weak point. Tada sensei, however, was three-dimensional. In addition to his use of angles, he would also drop his weight, and transmitting that power through the physical connection between us, drop my weight as well.

Consider this the kuzushi ("balance breaking") portion of his technique.

At this point, he would exponentially accelerate. He felt like he was cracking a whip -- me -- and I, like others, would fly quite some distance away. He often reversed directions to throw, so, in iriminage, for example, I'd be suddenly traveling 180 degrees in reverse to where I'd be heading a moment before. His technique was always clean -- he had so much control, due to his beautiful balance and powerful stance, that he had time to put me in a position that there was no reason to be hurt, as long as I relaxed and stayed aware. He would throw me very hard, but that impact actually felt good, as if all the air in my body exploded out of my pores upon impact.

He was difficult to take ukemi for, because he moved so big and so powerfully. Sometimes I couldn't catch up to him, and sometimes he was "there" before me. For a long time, I thought this was a flaw in his technique, because I then believed that the principle of musubi -- tori and uke "tying up together," so that we moved as one - was the pinnacle of aikido. I've thought about it over the years, and I must contradict myself. As long as he maintained his own postural integrity, as long as he did not unbalance himself, my inability to catch up or match him was not his problem. I was over-extended -- he was not. Were he to so chose, he was perfectly centered to continue moving inward to attack me in my unbalance at not being unbalanced enough.

To sum up, his attack is much like that of an eagle. He glides in a curving swoop, then grabs with his talons, and explodes in taking his prey. The hare doesn't have much say in how he'll be grabbed, and when the eagle beats his wings, the rabbit has to go, whether he likes it or not.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20847
 
Utisci Elisa Amdura o Jošio Kuroivi, čoveku koji je 4 puta bacio "godfathera" PRIDE-a i generalno MMA u Japanu Hiromići Momose-a, svojom modifikovanom verzijom košinage-a:

Kuroiwa Yoshio was a unique figure within the Aikikai. Although one of the senior postwar shihan, he refused rank past sixth dan. In fact, he simply refused rank all the way up the ladder until Ueshiba Kisshomaru (Nidai Doshu) personally requested that he accept a sixth dan, because dispatching him to teach in dojos without any rank was getting embarrassing. Kuroiwa was provocative, almost rebellious, but he remained within the organization -- functioning at times like a grain of sand underneath an otherwise smooth mantle, but otherwise, largely ignored. He was technically original, with an utterly unique style of movement. Had he been a different man, and perhaps, if his health had been better, he could have started his own aikido group independently, like Shioda or Tomiki. Instead, he remained within the fold - but just barely.

When I first met him at the 1977 Kagami Biraki at the Aikikai, he sat down beside me, and began asking me questions about my training, and soon launched into what, as long as I knew him, were the same stories and same theories. In some ways, he was caught in a time, when he, a golden youth with a body much like Marvelous Marvin Hagler, was an almost invincible street-fighter, a high-ranking amateur or professional boxer (it was never clear) and a wonderfully innovative aikido practitioner. With most of his stomach removed because of an ulcer, he was emaciated, but he lived several more several decades with his heart largely in the past.

My encounter with him that day illustrated his relationship with the Aikikai. We'd been talking for about ten minutes. Masuda Seijiro, a shihan then outranking Kuroiwa, but a decade junior to him, approached and ignoring me, said, "Sensei, we are having the shihan meeting upstairs now." Kuroiwa waved him off and said, "Talking with this young foreigner is more interesting than that. Start without me." Masuda asked again, ingratiatingly, almost begging. Kuroiwa waved him off and turned his back on him. Masuda glared daggers at me, promising payback at his next opportunity (he concussed me at the next class).

My relationship with Kuroiwa sensei can be summed up quickly. For the next two years, I attended in his classes twice a week at a dojo in Ikebukero. He prepared Chinese dumplings for thirty people for my wedding. He was down-to-earth and unpretentious -- just a guy who did this martial arts thing -- particularly well - but it wasn't anything to get inflated about. He demanded that aikido be a practical martial art, and regarded most of his compatriots in aikido rather cynically as people who couldn't fight, because they'd never taken a punch in the face. Bewilderingly, he used to insist to me, "Pro wrestling is real," and he included Antonio Inoki's infamous "cobra twist" in his repertoire.

After I withdrew from aikido, I continued to keep in touch over the years, visiting him at his home, and each time, as he would show me, once again, his radical ideas on movement, both unarmed and with a stick or sword, I'd curse myself for not training with him any longer. But I was on another path.

However, this is not about Kuroiwa and me. Instead, for one last time, let Kuroiwa-sensei tell his stories, because they, like amber, encased him in a past from which he never wanted to leave. I will tell them in the first person --however, I will censor some of them slightly, because some of the details are a little too rough on one or another figure in his past.
 
Episodes in a Life

I'm an Edokko -- from Shitamachi -- downtown. A lot of these aikido teachers are rich boys. They never worked for a living -- just got out of school and started doing aikido. I started boxing in junior high. I'd go down to Ginza -- back in the late 1940's, it wasn't the high-class place it is now. There'd be all these high school and college boys, hanging out., I'd see them almost every day, and I'd pick one out and stare him down. They'd look at me, just a kid, 13, 14 years old and say, "What are you looking at, kid? You want trouble?" And I'd say, "Onichan (Older brother). I do. I do want trouble. Why don't you come over here to this alley where we won't be bothered." And we would go in the alleyway, and I'd knock him out. I'd take the school button from his cap. After a couple of years, I had two shopping bags full of them.

I was also boxing in the ring. They really didn't have weight classes, then, and the division between pro and amateur was pretty loose. I'd just fight whomever I could. Some of them outweighed me by 20 kilos. That's why my eyes are bad -- detached retinas. I don't know how many fights I had - eighty, maybe a hundred, I think.

Anyway, I was riding on a train one day -- I think I was about 21 or 22 years old, and there was this guy, a little older than me, leaning on a strap, and he kept smiling at me, like he knew me. I was wracking my brains, thinking, "Did I know this guy in grade school? Junior high? Some job?" And finally, he says, "You don't remember me, do you?" And when I said I didn't, he said, "You left me lying unconscious on a pile of garbage in an alley in Ginza a few years ago." And then the train stopped, and he smiled and said, "Take care, onichan." and walked off the train.

I went home and started shaking and couldn't stop. I just sat on the floor for a whole night shaking. I could remember the face of every guy who beat me -- there were only a couple. But there must have been several hundred guys walking around Tokyo whom I'd shamed and beaten for no good reason. Any one of them could see me, walk up and stab me, and I wouldn't even know it was coming.

Around that time, I'd seen a newspaper and there was this article about Ueshiba sensei, about how he was a master of martial arts, yet he taught that the martial arts were love. For some reason, I kept it, and the next morning, I decided to go to the dojo. I just knew I was in a lot of trouble, and thought somehow aikido would help me. It was 1953-1954, there were only about eight of us then. Kato-kun (Kato Hiroshi) started about six months before me -- he was a strong boy -- he broke my arm not too long after I started. The next day, his mother dragged him over to my house and made him apologize to my mother.

Anyway, after my arm healed, I practiced everyday. With so few of us, there were no salary men aikidoka and no hobbyists -- there was Osensei, Waka-sensei (Kisshomaru) and a few teachers, and everyone else was either uchi-deshi or soto-deshi. But I was only able to practice for about six months or so. My brother got in debt to some yakuza, and I had to help him pay off the loan. I was getting up at four in the morning, and dragging a cart around town, delivering this and that, and I missed O-sensei's class in the morning. I couldn't get to the dojo until mid-afternoon, and then had to leave again before the evening. Missing O-sensei's class was regarded by the others as really bad -- like I was insulting him. But I had to work.

So most of my practice was alone. With six months, I remembered the basic aikido waza - I could pick up things after seeing them once or twice. So I started applying boxing theory to my aikido. To begin with, most aikido people have the idea that you take the center and make the opponent move around you. In boxing you move around the opponent, so he gets stuck and can't move -- it is at that moment that you hit them. And even though aikido people talk about circular movement, they tend to use straight lines and extended arms. I found that any and every aikido movement should follow the path of either an uppercut or a hook. What about a jab? A jab is a tsuki, and so is a straight punch. But when you do them properly, they spiral as well, just not so much as an uppercut or a hook.

Most people's aikido resembles a roach motel -- the person grabs on and both people pretend that they are stuck like cockroaches, and then they run around in circles. When I do aikido, I grab the opponent, rather than him grabbling me.

INTERLUDE ONE

Despite his emaciated frame, Kuroiwa had one of the strongest grips I've ever felt. His hands felt like talons. And because every move was an uppercut or hook, there was always torque to his grip. It hurt, your frame was locked and he somehow caught your whole skeleton with the grip of a single point.

Anyway, I started going to the dojo in the mid-afternoon, and was able to work out with the other guys. We were experimenting, and having a lot of fun. The younger guys started calling it the Kuroiwa Gakko (school). Then one day, Tohei Koichi sensei came up -- he was shihan bucho, and more or less ran the dojo. So he watched what I was doing, and said, "That's all useless. You have no ki." I have always had a temper, and I said, "What are you telling me, that you can touch me and shoot electricity in me or something? Sonna baka no koto o shijirarenai." (A rude way of saying, "I think you are talking nonsense.") Tohei sensei got red in the face and stomped off. The next day I came to practice and no one was there except Chiba-kun (Chiba Kazuo). Chiba-kun was my direct junior, just a kid then, and he looked really upset. He was sitting in seiza, with his fists clenched, almost crying. I asked where everyone was, and he told me that Tohei sensei ordered everyone to have no contact with me.

<Suffice it to say that young Kuroiwa and Tohei had a face-to-face confrontation that probably would have ended in blows, but at the last moment, O-sensei appeared.>

O-sensei came into the room, he'd surely heard everything, and started fussing around, saying, "I didn't know anyone was here, let me make you both some tea. How nice to have visitors." Well, I couldn't do anything then. But I couldn't stand the thought of being in the same dojo with Tohei sensei after that.

Back then the Yoshinkan and the Aikikai were like two sports teams. Shioda sensei heard about the incident, and he had people contact me. He didn't care that my style was different, He just wanted strong boys. Well, word got back to Honbu Dojo, and Osawa sensei and Waka-sensei (Doshu) took me out for coffee. They asked me what was wrong, and when I told them, Osawa sensei just looked at me and said, "Since when did Tohei become aikido? Aikido is O-sensei, not Tohei." Well, I couldn't leave then, could I? But I kept my distance. I'd train at some of my friend's dojos, like Nishio-sensei, and then I started teaching at Rikkyo University. I started working out with the wrestling team. They had all these leg attacks -- double leg, single leg, and they were throwing me with ease. I had to figure out a way to beat them, with side-stepping and hitting, dropping my weight and the like. In the process, I developed a new way of doing koshinage.
 
INTERLUDE TWO

Kuroiwa's techniques were seamless. One followed another. You will observe in the clip, from Aikido Journal, 1985, ([1] -- link provided with permission of Stanley Pranin. For the original DVD, please visit the Aikido Journal website) Kuroiwa-sensei moving slowly and smoothly as he explains his method, and the koshinage, in particular, may appear unrealistic to some. But it was amazing to feel in person. He would drop just like a great wrestler would with a single leg take-down, and his timing was so impeccable that he'd disappear, and you'd spill over his back. I've seen a photo of Kuroiwa in his prime, at the point he stands out from under the throw and his uke is upside down, shoulder to shoulder with him, with his feet vertical in the air.

I was still traveling around Tokyo, visiting several friends' dojos, and one day I arrived at one place, and this group of yakuza was doing a dojo arashi. Their leader was the son of the oyabun (boss) -- named Momose. They were old-school yakuza -- bakuto -- (gamblers) and even though their group has always been really small, because of their lineage, they are like diplomats -- when some of the big gangs have disagreements, Momose's group used to negotiate, because they are considered to be part of the old ways. Anyway, Momose, the son, was a big guy, about 110 kilos, and he was fourth dan amateur sumo. And he had just trashed everyone in the place. So I called him out and I threw him four times in a row with my koshinage.

- - - - - - - - - -

INTERLUDE THREE

For a number of years, I'd visit Kuroiwa-sensei with my family for the Asakusa Matsuri, a yearly festival in the old part of Tokyo. And every year, Momose, now oyabun himself, would bring about ten gang members who would wait respectfully outside the house. Momose would come in with a gift, bowing low with real respect to "sensei." Momose told me the story of his defeat himself, the second time I met him, still marveling at Kuroiwa's throws.

But bowing to the man who defeats you is a particularly Japanese form of kata in such men's world. It didn't make him anything less of a thug. The first time I met Momose, I had a cast on my thumb due to a fracture, and Momose deliberately took my hand, and began to squeeze my broken thumb. I squeezed back and smiled in his eyes. The two of us grinning like a pair of junk-yard dogs. We were just about to have a Hallmark moment when Mrs. Kuroiwa, one of the loveliest human beings who ever walked, a real shitamachi girl who missed nothing, traipsed over and said, "Momose-san. Do you want to stay for a bite to eat?"

He disengaged from me and said, "Oh, no thanks. I'm going to go get drunk and get laid in a whorehouse."

"Oh," she said. "Well, have fun."

I started presenting my koshinage in the All Japan aikido taikai. Arikawa-sensei told me to stop. He said it wasn't aikido. I told him that until Osensei told me to stop, I'd keep doing it.

I did go to one of the all-shihan meetings recently. Nidai Doshu asked if anyone had any more questions, and I said, "We should stop doing tachi-dori and jo-dori in public demos. There are lots of real swordsmen in the audience, people who've really trained with swords, and they know that we can't really do such techniques. We are making fools of ourselves." There was dead silence in the room. Finally Doshu changed the subject. Later, Saito-sensei came up to me. I thought he'd be angry, but he slapped me on the back and said, ‘Yoku itte kureta.'("Thanks for saying what needed to be said"). Well, maybe it needed to be said but nothing's changed, has it?

INTERLUDE FOUR

The last time I met him, I asked Kuroiwa sensei about O-sensei's power. "Wanryoku," he replied. Raw power. "Ueshiba-sensei was just an immensely powerful man. And he trained harder than anyone."

"How about aiki?" I asked. "For example, how about him extending a bokken horizontally and his students couldn't move it. Were you ever one of the people pushing?"

"Yes. And I couldn't move him either."

"So what do you attribute that to? He was an old man. He couldn't have had that much power left."

Kuroiwa sensei smiled -- "You can't knock your teacher over when your teacher just announces in front of an audience that you can't knock him over."

INTERLUDE FIVE

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=463
http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=558

As one can see from these articles, Kuroiwa-sensei had a beautiful mind, with an original, iconoclastic approach. He asserted that idealism of aikido was insufficient, saying that aikido practice, alone, was a yin practice, like religion, with both partners participating together. He asserted that it must be complimented by yang practice -- such as competition or even fights.

Yet, he never flourished. Relatively few people studied with him and only a few in depth. A man's life story is his fate, and somehow, Kuroiwa-sensei was fated to live in a beautiful past, where he was a bold and brawny youth, afraid of nothing and no man. He blossomed for a while in aikido, with a remarkably creative style, among the most beautiful yet powerful aikido anyone has ever seen or felt. Terry Dobson told me, "Kuroiwa was the scariest guy at Hombu Dojo. He was built like a Greek god, and he was so fast -- but he never hurt anyone. That's what made him so scary. You knew what he could do if he really unleashed it -- and he never even felt the need to show it."

But his health was soon broken -- ulcers that emaciated him, detached retina's kept him tied to a pager in case the doctors found suitable transplants (when they did and he finally agreed to the operation, they nearly blinded him in a botched operation) and then, lung cancer, from chain smoking and emphysema afterwards ravaged him. I visited him last year -- he was tethered to an oxygen hose, very frail -- and he told me the same stories yet again. I listened like they were new.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17729
 
Poslednja izmena:
Врло занимљиве приче, можда не би било лоше и да их преведеш?

@igiboy

Када си прочитао ове текстове, да ли су они на било који начин утицали на оно како си посматрао аикидо и да ли си и на који начин променио у свој тренинг?
 
Врло занимљиве приче, можда не би било лоше и да их преведеш?

Nemam vremena.

@igiboy

Када си прочитао ове текстове, да ли су они на било који начин утицали на оно како си посматрао аикидо и да ли си и на који начин променио у свој тренинг?

Ništa posebno. Manje-više su potvrdila neka shvatanja koja sam i imao od starta.
 

U fizičkoj manifestaciji, naime postoje tri tipa manifestacije njegove moći, sirova ili titanska snaga kako su je mnogi opisivali, potoim ide Daito ryu aiki moć koju kada je koristio ljudi su opisivali uke-e koji kao da su bili udareni elektricitetom i na kraju "praznina" u smislu da nije bilo skoro nikakve koalizije između njega i uke-a nego da se prosto uke-ov naprad pretvarao u ništa.
 
U fizičkoj manifestaciji, naime postoje tri tipa manifestacije njegove moći, sirova ili titanska snaga kako su je mnogi opisivali, potoim ide Daito ryu aiki moć koju kada je koristio ljudi su opisivali uke-e koji kao da su bili udareni elektricitetom i na kraju "praznina" u smislu da nije bilo skoro nikakve koalizije između njega i uke-a nego da se prosto uke-ov naprad pretvarao u ništa.

Физичка манифестација-да, трећа манифестација ("praznina" u smislu da nije bilo skoro nikakve koalizije između njega i uke-a nego da se prosto uke-ov naprad pretvarao u ništa.") - да и у неким другим методама обуке је то принцип којим се тежи и који се достиже кроз разумевање (да достижу га чак и они који нису носиоци вештине).
Што се тиче друге манифестације коју си описао "Daito ryu aiki moć koju kada je koristio ljudi su opisivali uke-e koji kao da su bili udareni elektricitetom" је већ приказ субјективне жеље да твој идол поседује такву моћ јер је то добар одбрамбени механизам за бежање од стварности.
Текст који си копирао управо тај део "моћи" разобличује и приказује ствари онакве каквим јесу. Просто су људи зависни од тога да њихови идоли имају тако неке мистичне моћи не би ли се надали да ће и он једног дана тако нешто моћи... И онда се покреће спирала обманејер они на своје ученике онда преносе иста осећања и надања која су неоснована...
 
Физичка манифестација-да, трећа манифестација ("praznina" u smislu da nije bilo skoro nikakve koalizije između njega i uke-a nego da se prosto uke-ov naprad pretvarao u ništa.") - да и у неким другим методама обуке је то принцип којим се тежи и који се достиже кроз разумевање (да достижу га чак и они који нису носиоци вештине).

Super, definiši reč nosioci veštine i navedi te metode obuke.

Што се тиче друге манифестације коју си описао "Daito ryu aiki moć koju kada je koristio ljudi su opisivali uke-e koji kao da su bili udareni elektricitetom" је већ приказ субјективне жеље да твој идол поседује такву моћ јер је то добар одбрамбени механизам за бежање од стварности.

Koja crna subjektivna želja :D , taj opis su dali oni koji su prisustvovali njegovoj demonstraciji u okupiranoj Mandžuriji 1939. godine među kojima je bila nekolicina poznatih majstora iz drugih borilačkih veština od kojih su neki naveli baš taj opis. Dakle čisto objektivno posmatranje :D .

Текст који си копирао управо тај део "моћи" разобличује и приказује ствари онакве каквим јесу. Просто су људи зависни од тога да њихови идоли имају тако неке мистичне моћи не би ли се надали да ће и он једног дана тако нешто моћи... И онда се покреће спирала обманејер они на своје ученике онда преносе иста осећања и надања која су неоснована...


Zbilja :D , ajde objasni "kakve su to stvari koje jesu". Tekst od Kuroive samo objašnjava njegovo shvatanje kako je Uešiba mogao da izvede to što je izvodio jer kao i ti nije znao dovoljno o tematici stvari kojima se Uešiba bavio. To je i normalno jer i sam Uešiba nije nastojao da objasni te stvari na jasan i precizan način, pogotovo u posleratnom periodu. Poenta kod Kuroive je i pored toga što je bio dobar borac, bio je prosto sirov borac i to mu se nažalost vratilo u zdravstvenom smislu. Što se tiče "spirale obmane", problem je u tome što su određeni učenici mogli da izvode to što je on izvodio, mahom predratni naravno tipa Šioda, Širata itd. od posleratnih je nešto slično radio Tohej, mada i Tada ima svoj sistem rada, Henri Kono i još poneki. Drugim rečima nema neonovanih nadanja samo onih koji žele ili ne žele da postignu to što je on mogao. Njegov učitelj Sokaku Takeda na primer je govorio svojim učenicima da nauče svega po dvojicu u svakoj generaciji da izvode to što se zove Daito ryu aiki, pa su tu opet bili ljudi poput Uešibe, Sagave, Horikave, Okamotoa itd.
 
Poslednja izmena:
Super, definiši reč nosioci veštine i navedi te metode obuke.

Под термином "носиоц вештине" сматрам оне који су родоначелници одређеног правца односно специфичног начина обука тј њихове овлашћене наследнике који имају овлашћење да даље преносе и усмеравају развој.
Што се тиче других метода обуке код који се вежбачи усмеравају на оно што си ти сматраш под Морихеином моћи ("praznina" u smislu da nije bilo skoro nikakve koalizije između njega i uke-a nego da se prosto uke-ov naprad pretvarao u ništa.") на пример постоји као идеал у Нинђуцу, постоји међу кинсеким борилчким вештинама које су окрентуе унутрашњем раду али постоји и у руским борилачким искуствима базираним на народном борењу. Штавише код озбиљнијих вежбача системе је уобичајан рад а не идеал који раде само Рјапко или Владимир...
Koja crna subjektivna želja :D , taj opis su dali oni koji su prisustvovali njegovoj demonstraciji u okupiranoj Mandžuriji 1939. godine među kojima je bila nekolicina poznatih majstora iz drugih borilačkih veština od kojih su neki naveli baš taj opis. Dakle čisto objektivno posmatranje :D .

Прочитај поново текстове које си сам поставио. Наћићеш одговор на овај твој коментар и то из прве руке од човека који је ето тврдио да би без муке упропастио сваку ту демонстацију "моћи" његовог учитеља само да га није било срамота да противречи учитељу!
Zbilja :D , ajde objasni "kakve su to stvari koje jesu". Tekst od Kuroive samo objašnjava njegovo shvatanje kako je Uešiba mogao da izvede to što je izvodio jer kao i ti nije znao dovoljno o tematici stvari kojima se Uešiba bavio. To je i normalno jer i sam Uešiba nije nastojao da objasni te stvari na jasan i precizan način, pogotovo u posleratnom periodu. Poenta kod Kuroive je i pored toga što je bio dobar borac, bio je prosto sirov borac i to mu se nažalost vratilo u zdravstvenom smislu. Što se tiče "spirale obmane", problem je u tome što su određeni učenici mogli da izvode to što je on izvodio, mahom predratni naravno tipa Šioda, Širata itd. od posleratnih je nešto slično radio Tohej, mada i Tada ima svoj sistem rada, Henri Kono i još poneki. Drugim rečima nema neonovanih nadanja samo onih koji žele ili ne žele da postignu to što je on mogao. Njegov učitelj Sokaku Takeda na primer je govorio svojim učenicima da nauče svega po dvojicu u svakoj generaciji da izvode to što se zove Daito ryu aiki, pa su tu opet bili ljudi poput Uešibe, Sagave, Horikave, Okamotoa itd.

Ствари су такве да се стварају такви односи где вежбач свог тренера/учитеља/.. идеализује и никада не доводи у питања његове ставове и технике! То се постиже како одређеним културним обрасцем вежбача тако и разноразним манипулативним техникама ( имаш пример и у текстовима које си поставио!). Ефекат тога јесте да вежбачи од страха да не буду ускраћени за даље обучавање зазиру од постављања питања односно од тестирања оног што се обрађује на тренинзима. Одсуство тестирања правда се "страхом од непотребних повреда" чиме се вежбачима онемугућава стицање искуства - без искуства не могу да стекну ни вештину-резлутат: идеалан материјал којем се продаје свакојак шкарт...


Што се тиче тих других инструктора које наводиш већ смо дискутовали на ту тему и већ сам ти скренуо пажњу да то нису никаве посбене "моћи" већ просто специфичне вежбе које сваки нормалан човек може да изведе уз одређену обуку... Ако се усудиш и сетиш оног видео клипа са оним "тестирањем Ки-ја" за који сам тврдио да могу да обучим просечног човека за пар сати... Видиш мене не мрзи да тестирам- и проверио сам своју тврдњу. Замисли чак и код људи који су били уверени да би им требале године да тако нешто изведу, на крају су идентичну вежбу са истим успехом као на снимку који је био постављен, извели за мање од 20 (двадесетак) минута..! (додуше тек до нивоа извођења саме вежбе).

Што се тиче мајстора (Jošio Kuroiа) за којег тврдиш да је просто радио на снагу, бацио сам мало поглед по нету и могу да се сложим са аутором текста да је у питању изузетан мајстор који стварно разуме оно што вежба а не да је "снагатор" којем су продали пар фора и звање да би било миран...
 
Под термином "носиоц вештине" сматрам оне који су родоначелници одређеног правца односно специфичног начина обука тј њихове овлашћене наследнике који имају овлашћење да даље преносе и усмеравају развој.
Што се тиче других метода обуке код који се вежбачи усмеравају на оно што си ти сматраш под Морихеином моћи ("praznina" u smislu da nije bilo skoro nikakve koalizije između njega i uke-a nego da se prosto uke-ov naprad pretvarao u ništa.") на пример постоји као идеал у Нинђуцу, постоји међу кинсеким борилчким вештинама које су окрентуе унутрашњем раду али постоји и у руским борилачким искуствима базираним на народном борењу. Штавише код озбиљнијих вежбача системе је уобичајан рад а не идеал који раде само Рјапко или Владимир...

Nisam te pitao za to ko se čime bavi, pitao sam te za konkretne metode. To da to postoji i u Ninđucu-u i kineskim veštinama je jasno obzirom da je po svim izvorima to znanje i došlo iz Kine u Japan. Sam Uešiba je i bio obrazovan u kineskim tekstovima, posto čak i indicije da je na njega direktno uticala i veština Bakuadžang. I Henriju Kono-u je rekao, kada ga je pitao zašto ovi ne mogu da izvode to što on izvodi da je to zato što on razume "Jing i Jang a oni ne", Za Rjabka i ekipu je poznato da su pokupili sve i svašta iz drugih sistema i "korigovali" za svoje potrebe, ako su išta i korigovali :D . Nego de napiši te metode?


Прочитај поново текстове које си сам поставио. Наћићеш одговор на овај твој коментар и то из прве руке од човека који је ето тврдио да би без муке упропастио сваку ту демонстацију "моћи" његовог учитеља само да га није било срамота да противречи учитељу!

Nije nigde tvrdio da bi bez muke upropastio svaku demonstraciju, to ti pišeš a ne on :D . Problem kod njegove tvrdnje doduše je činjenica da on nikada nije probao ni na najobičnijem treningu da spreči Uešibu da izvede to što je mogao dok su drugi to i probali i nisu uspeli :D . Jbg sujeta je čudo.

Ствари су такве да се стварају такви односи где вежбач свог тренера/учитеља/.. идеализује и никада не доводи у питања његове ставове и технике! То се постиже како одређеним културним обрасцем вежбача тако и разноразним манипулативним техникама ( имаш пример и у текстовима које си поставио!). Ефекат тога јесте да вежбачи од страха да не буду ускраћени за даље обучавање зазиру од постављања питања односно од тестирања оног што се обрађује на тренинзима. Одсуство тестирања правда се "страхом од непотребних повреда" чиме се вежбачима онемугућава стицање искуства - без искуства не могу да стекну ни вештину-резлутат: идеалан материјал којем се продаје свакојак шкарт...

Gde se to ovde ne dovode u pitanja stavovi i tehnike :D ? Pa svi učenici koji su trenirali kod Uešibe i u posleratnom periodu su bili testirali svoju veštinu baš zato da bi videli šta i kako funkcioniše. O tome je otvoreno pisao i Teri Dobson, prvi Amerikanac koji je trenirao kod Uešibe. Dok je on bio tamo većina učenika u Hombu-u je već bila testirala svoju veštinu na ulici :D . Opet pišeš napamet jer nemaš dovoljno znanja o tematici.


Што се тиче тих других инструктора које наводиш већ смо дискутовали на ту тему и већ сам ти скренуо пажњу да то нису никаве посбене "моћи" већ просто специфичне вежбе које сваки нормалан човек може да изведе уз одређену обуку... Ако се усудиш и сетиш оног видео клипа са оним "тестирањем Ки-ја" за који сам тврдио да могу да обучим просечног човека за пар сати... Видиш мене не мрзи да тестирам- и проверио сам своју тврдњу. Замисли чак и код људи који су били уверени да би им требале године да тако нешто изведу, на крају су идентичну вежбу са истим успехом као на снимку који је био постављен, извели за мање од 20 (двадесетак) минута..! (додуше тек до нивоа извођења саме вежбе).

Nemam ja pojma šta ti misliš da si nekoga naučio i šta ti misliš da si testirao i proverio :D . Nigde nisam ni pisao da su to "posebne moći" nego tri fizičke manifestacije Uešibine moći odnosno borilačke moći da ti bude jasnije pošto vidim da ti inače nije jasno. Inače i sam Tohej je tvrdio da za te osnove vežbe ne treba sto godina da se nauče samo je problem u tome što ti izgleda njih vežbaš samo kao fore i ne kapiraš da su one zapravo deo jedne celine . No dobro, to tako ide kada se pokupi odasvud po malo i ne postoji konkretno znanje.

Што се тиче мајстора (Jošio Kuroiа) за којег тврдиш да је просто радио на снагу, бацио сам мало поглед по нету и могу да се сложим са аутором текста да је у питању изузетан мајстор који стварно разуме оно што вежба а не да је "снагатор" којем су продали пар фора и звање да би било миран...

Čuj ovo :D , sirov borac ne znači automatski radio na snagu, Vidim da ni to ne umeš da prepoznaš.
 
Nisam te pitao za to ko se čime bavi, pitao sam te za konkretne metode. To da to postoji i u Ninđucu-u i kineskim veštinama je jasno obzirom da je po svim izvorima to znanje i došlo iz Kine u Japan. Sam Uešiba je i bio obrazovan u kineskim tekstovima, posto čak i indicije da je na njega direktno uticala i veština Bakuadžang. I Henriju Kono-u je rekao, kada ga je pitao zašto ovi ne mogu da izvode to što on izvodi da je to zato što on razume "Jing i Jang a oni ne", Za Rjabka i ekipu je poznato da su pokupili sve i svašta iz drugih sistema i "korigovali" za svoje potrebe, ako su išta i korigovali :D . Nego de napiši te metode?


Nije nigde tvrdio da bi bez muke upropastio svaku demonstraciju, to ti pišeš a ne on :D . Problem kod njegove tvrdnje doduše je činjenica da on nikada nije probao ni na najobičnijem treningu da spreči Uešibu da izvede to što je mogao dok su drugi to i probali i nisu uspeli :D . Jbg sujeta je čudo.
Gde se to ovde ne dovode u pitanja stavovi i tehnike :D ? Pa svi učenici koji su trenirali kod Uešibe i u posleratnom periodu su bili testirali svoju veštinu baš zato da bi videli šta i kako funkcioniše. O tome je otvoreno pisao i Teri Dobson, prvi Amerikanac koji je trenirao kod Uešibe. Dok je on bio tamo većina učenika u Hombu-u je već bila testirala svoju veštinu na ulici :D . Opet pišeš napamet jer nemaš dovoljno znanja o tematici.
Nemam ja pojma šta ti misliš da si nekoga naučio i šta ti misliš da si testirao i proverio :D . Nigde nisam ni pisao da su to "posebne moći" nego tri fizičke manifestacije Uešibine moći odnosno borilačke moći da ti bude jasnije pošto vidim da ti inače nije jasno. Inače i sam Tohej je tvrdio da za te osnove vežbe ne treba sto godina da se nauče samo je problem u tome što ti izgleda njih vežbaš samo kao fore i ne kapiraš da su one zapravo deo jedne celine . No dobro, to tako ide kada se pokupi odasvud po malo i ne postoji konkretno znanje.

Čuj ovo :D , sirov borac ne znači automatski radio na snagu, Vidim da ni to ne umeš da prepoznaš.
Момчино где ти оно тренираш или барем прикажи неки снимак свог рада с тренинга?

Можда не би било лоше да поново прочиташ текстове које си поставио...
 
Hajde Igiboy, da vidimo tebe, kako baratas mocima Aikidoa.

Citat: " Za Rjabka i ekipu je poznato da su pokupili sve i svašta iz drugih sistema i "korigovali" za svoje potrebe, ako su išta i korigovali";,
A pise sledece, ko je on:

Mikhail Ryabko was trained from the age of five and involved in combative training from the age of fifteen. He worked in militia in RF Ministry of Interior Security Department, trained the Minister's security guards. He was a tactical commander of hostage-rescue teams, counter-terrorist operations, and armed criminal neutralization.

Mihail Ryabko je treniran od pete godine života i uključen u borbenu obuku u dobi od petnaest godina. Radio je u miliciji u Ministarstvu unutarnjih poslova RF-a, obučavao ministra za sigurnost. Bio je taktički zapovjednik timova za spašavanje talaca, protuterorističkih operacija i oružane neutralizacije.
 
Момчино где ти оно тренираш или барем прикажи неки снимак свог рада с тренинга?

Nemam snimaka a trenutno ni vremena ni živaca da ih pravim hajlenderu :D, mada ću izgleda morati zbog šireg Aikido auditorijuma kojem manjka osnovnih znanja.

Можда не би било лоше да поново прочиташ текстове које си поставио...

Genije ja sam imao korespodenciju sa autorom tih tekstova, u samom tekstu imaš i deo gde Kuroiva navodi kako je japanski pro-wrestling (japanski kečeri) stvaran. :D .

- - - - - - - - - -

Hajde Igiboy, da vidimo tebe, kako baratas mocima Aikidoa.

Prvo ti postavi da vidimo kako barataš moćima Ueči rju-a. Otvori posebnu temu i postavi snimke tvojih borbi na jutjubu i priloži ih ovde. :D Ti barem imaš materijala za odmah :D .

Citat: " Za Rjabka i ekipu je poznato da su pokupili sve i svašta iz drugih sistema i "korigovali" za svoje potrebe, ako su išta i korigovali";,
A pise sledece, ko je on:


Mikhail Ryabko was trained from the age of five and involved in combative training from the age of fifteen. He worked in militia in RF Ministry of Interior Security Department, trained the Minister's security guards. He was a tactical commander of hostage-rescue teams, counter-terrorist operations, and armed criminal neutralization.

Mihail Ryabko je treniran od pete godine života i uključen u borbenu obuku u dobi od petnaest godina. Radio je u miliciji u Ministarstvu unutarnjih poslova RF-a, obučavao ministra za sigurnost. Bio je taktički zapovjednik timova za spašavanje talaca, protuterorističkih operacija i oružane neutralizacije.

I kakve logičke veze ima ovo što si ti napisai sa onim citatom gore :D ?
 
Nemam snimaka a trenutno ni vremena ni živaca da ih pravim hajlenderu :D, mada ću izgleda morati zbog šireg Aikido auditorijuma kojem manjka osnovnih znanja.
Genije ja sam imao korespodenciju sa autorom tih tekstova, u samom tekstu imaš i deo gde Kuroiva navodi kako je japanski pro-wrestling (japanski kečeri) stvaran. :D .

Има и други начин, реци где тренираш па ћу ја да свратим да ме упознаш са основама аикидоа - немам проблема са тим да научим нешто што не знам.

Што се тиче коресподенције... знам и ја људе који су осим разговора чак бивали и на тренининзима и семинарама са Рјапком и Владимиром па и даље немају ни основну представу шта се и како ту вежба већ све гледају кроз неке друге спортове и вештине тј немају везе са Системом...
 
Nemam snimaka a trenutno ni vremena ni živaca da ih pravim hajlenderu :D, mada ću izgleda morati zbog šireg Aikido auditorijuma kojem manjka osnovnih znanja.



Genije ja sam imao korespodenciju sa autorom tih tekstova, u samom tekstu imaš i deo gde Kuroiva navodi kako je japanski pro-wrestling (japanski kečeri) stvaran. :D .

- - - - - - - - - -



Prvo ti postavi da vidimo kako barataš moćima Ueči rju-a. Otvori posebnu temu i postavi snimke tvojih borbi na jutjubu i priloži ih ovde. :D Ti barem imaš materijala za odmah :D .

Citat: " Za Rjabka i ekipu je poznato da su pokupili sve i svašta iz drugih sistema i "korigovali" za svoje potrebe, ako su išta i korigovali";,
A pise sledece, ko je on:




I kakve logičke veze ima ovo što si ti napisai sa onim citatom gore :D ?

Uechi Ryu nema takvih moci kako se predstavlja u Aikidou.
Igrom slucaja nemam snimke borbi u kojima sam ucestvovao, nije mi bilo neophodno.
Zadnja borba je bila u Ful kontakt karateu u mojoj 46-toj god. zivotnoj.
Sto sam pokupio od medalja na tim takmicenjima su uglavnom, druga i treca mesta.tako sam sebi dokazao da Uechi Ryu moze da se praktikuje i primeni u svakoj situaciji, :)
 
Poslednja izmena:
Mihail Ryabko je treniran od pete godine života i uključen u borbenu obuku u dobi od petnaest godina. Radio je u miliciji u Ministarstvu unutarnjih poslova RF-a, obučavao ministra za sigurnost. Bio je taktički zapovjednik timova za spašavanje talaca, protuterorističkih operacija i oružane neutralizacije.
I kakve logičke veze ima ovo što si ti napisai sa onim citatom gore :?:

Pa eto, s obzirom da si napisao da je Rjapko pokupio sve i svasta iz iz drugih sistema. Na osnovu cega ovo si napisao , odnosno tvrdis :?:
 
Има и други начин, реци где тренираш па ћу ја да свратим да ме упознаш са основама аикидоа - немам проблема са тим да научим нешто што не знам.

Trenutno nisam tamo ali ne brini se, dobićeš poziv a i svratiću ja do tebe da vidim svo to vaskoliko znanje koje ne posedujem.

Што се тиче коресподенције... знам и ја људе који су осим разговора чак бивали и на тренининзима и семинарама са Рјапком и Владимиром па и даље немају ни основну представу шта се и како ту вежба већ све гледају кроз неке друге спортове и вештине тј немају везе са Системом...

Zamisli.
 
Mihail Ryabko je treniran od pete godine života i uključen u borbenu obuku u dobi od petnaest godina. Radio je u miliciji u Ministarstvu unutarnjih poslova RF-a, obučavao ministra za sigurnost. Bio je taktički zapovjednik timova za spašavanje talaca, protuterorističkih operacija i oružane neutralizacije.
I kakve logičke veze ima ovo što si ti napisai sa onim citatom gore :?:

Pa eto, s obzirom da si napisao da je Rjapko pokupio sve i svasta iz iz drugih sistema. Na osnovu cega ovo si napisao , odnosno tvrdis :?:

U čemu je bio treniran od pete godine života? Nemoj opet da zasipaš temu besmislenim postovima svega ti.
 

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