Sloveni na severozapadu Evrope

dublin · 27.11.2012. u 12:37

grad, gard, gord, gorod, hrad...

rec koja oznacava utvrdjenje na slovenskim jezicima.

na http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_(archaeology) pise ovo:

A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites. The ancient peoples were known for building wooden fortified settlements. The reconstructed Centum-satem isogloss word for such a settlement is g'herdh, gordъ, related to the Germanic *gard and *gart (as in Stuttgart etc.). This Proto-Slavic word (*gordъ) for town or city, later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град), gard,[1][2] gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.[3][4][5] The most explicit derivatives from grad are the Croatian word Gradjanski (Croatian: Građanski) and the Russian word Grazhdanye (Russian: Граждане) both means citizens.

znaci sloveni su svoje utvrde zvali gord, gard, gorod, grad a germani su te iste utvrde zvali "burgwall or Slavic burgwall"

ovde se kaze da je rec povezana sa germanskom reci gard

evo sta se kaze za gard

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gard

na slovenskim jezicima gard ima isto znacenje kao u sanskritu: staniste, naseobina, utvrda.

English garden (ogradjeni deo zemlje), yard (ogradjeni prostor), gard (cuvati)

ja mislim da su germani preuzeli od slovena rec gard i pojam to gard sto znaci cuvati podizanjem zida od kamena ili od ljudi (garda)

na http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_placename_etymology

Slavic names: Prior to the medieval Ostsiedlung, Slavic languages like Polabian, Sorbian, Pomeranian, and Slovenian were spoken in the eastern parts of the Holy Roman Empire. The German settlers and administration in many cases adopted existing Wendish placenames, for example Rostock (from Old Polabian rostok, "river fork"), Dresden (from Sorbian Drežďany), and Berlin (possibly from a Polabian word meaning "Swamp"). For the same reason, many German placenames ending in -anz (e.g. Ummanz), -gard (e.g. Burg Stargard), -gast (e.g. Wolgast), -itz (e.g. Lancken-Granitz), -ow (e.g. Gützkow), and -vitz or -witz (e.g. Malschwitz) have Slavic roots. Due to spelling and pronunciation changes over the centuries, the original Wendish term in most cases is not preserved. Also, some placenames combine a German with a Wendish term (e.g. Altentreptow). The German suffix -au can be related to the Slavic -ow and -ov when derived from the Old German spelling (u= w =double u; e.g. Prenzlau was earlier spelled Prenzlow).

interesantno je kako nisu pomenuli stutgart. stutgart lezi istocno od slovensko franacke granice u periodu 6 - 8 veka. sto znaci da je verovatno slovenski grad.

dokaz da su mesta u nemackoj i skandinaviji sa nastavkom gard, gord, gart, bila originalno slovenske utvrde je u sledecem:

A gord is a medieval Slavic fortified settlement, also occasionally known as a burgwall or Slavic burgwall after the German name for these sites

znaci germani su slovenske gradove zvali burg ili burgwall.

dokaz da germani nisu nikad zvali svoja naselja gard ili gord moze se videti u tome sto su mnogi gradovi preimenovani u burgove kada je teritorija osvojena od strane germana.
primer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikilenburg

Mecklenburg Castle was a medieval castle and a residential capital of the Nakonid and Nikloting dynasties of the Obotrites

maklenburg utvrda je bila sediste obodritske dinastije...

The travelling merchant Ibrahim Ibn Jacub described Mecklenburg as “Nakon’s Castle” in 965. By 995 it was documented as Michelenburg[3] or Mikelenburg, meaning large castle in Low German. In Latin, it was known as Magnopolis. The later duchy and region of Mecklenburg derives its name from the castle. The probable Slavic name, Veligrad also (“great” or “large castle”).[3] was commemorated in a new Schloss Weligrad built between 1896 and 1898 for Duke John Albert of Mecklenburg.

znaci originalno ime je bilo Veligrad ili veligard. germani su ga zvali Mikelenburg sto znaci veliki grad na staro nemackom.

jos jedan dokaz da germani i skandinavci nisu zvali svoje naseobine gard ili gord je jomsburg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsborg

skandinavci koji su ga osnovali kad su dosli da rade kao placenici za poljske kraljeve su koristili rec burg za grad.

da su gradovi slovenske gradjevine pokazuje i svedski naziv za slovenske zemlje: Garðaríki (zemlja gradova)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardariki

ono sto je najvaznije u vezi gradova severnih slovena je to da oni vuku direktan koren iz naseobina luzicke kulture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_(archaeology)

Similar strongholds were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the people of the Lusatian culture (ca. 1300 BC – 500 BC), and later in the 7th - 8th centuries CE in modern-day Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and eastern Germany. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands or peninsulas.

dakle postoji veza preko gradova sa luzickom kulturom. na severnom baltiku su samo sloveni gradili gradove koji su bili slicni luzickim gradovima iz bronzanog doba.

Ahil71 · 27.11.2012. u 13:02

Nisam baš siguran. Grad bi trebao voditi poreklo od gladola graditi. Znači bilo koje naselje.
Utvrđenje je pre Tvrđava, Tvrdava. Skoro svi Dačanski gradovi imaju nastavak -dava.

dublin · 27.11.2012. u 13:12

Nisam baš siguran. Grad bi trebao voditi poreklo od gladola graditi.

tek se kasnije gard transformise u grad (gradnja). originalno je bilo gard, gord, gorod, sto znaci utvrdjeno naselje. kao u sanskritu.

The Proto-Slavic word *gordъ means a "fenced area", compare to Ukrainian horodyty, Czech ohradit, Russian ogradit, Croatian/Serbian ograditi and Polish ogradzać meaning "fence away". It ultimately finds its root in the Proto-Indo-European language; cognates are many English words related to enclosure: "yard", "girdle," and "court." In some modern Slavic languages, *gordъ has evolved into words for a "garden" (likewise a fenced area, from which Latin hortus, and English horticulture and orchard): the Ukrainian ґород (gorod) and город (horod), the Bulgarian and Macedonian градина (gradina), the Polish ogród, the Slovak záhrada, the Czech zahrada, the Russian огород (ogorod). In some Slavic languages, *gord has evolved into a word for "town" or "city": the Russian gorod, the ancient Pomeranian and modern Kaszubian gard, the Bulgarian, Croatian, Macedonian and Serbian град, grad. The Slovak and Czech hrad and Slovene grad have evolved to mean "fortified castle." The Polish gród and Ukrainian horod retain their original[citation needed] meaning of an "ancient fortified settlement."

ono sto je bitno je da su samo sloveni koristili gard i gord za oznacavanje gradova (ogradjenih naselja) na baltiku u ranom srednjem veku. germani su koristili burg ili borg

dublin · 27.11.2012. u 13:21

ovo je jos interesantno

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_placename_etymology

wend, or -winden (meaning small Slavic settlements in Germanic surroundings). Examples: Bernhardwinden near Ansbach, Wenden near Ebhausen

dakle slovenska naselja na germanskim teritorijama su imala u svojim nazivima wend, winden, (or vend u skandinaviji) kao znak da su tu ziveli sloveni.

Wendisch-, Windisch- (Slovene) ("Wendish") . Example: Wendisch Baggendorf, Windischgarsten. This sometimes refers (particularly in present and former Austrian territories) to the original language of the inhabitants. Other examples: Böhmisch Krummau (Česky Krumlov), Unter-Deutschau (Nemška Loka).

The German settlers and administration in many cases adopted existing Wendish placenames, for example Rostock (from Old Polabian rostok, "river fork"), Dresden (from Sorbian Drežďany), and Berlin (possibly from a Polabian word meaning "Swamp")

Due to spelling and pronunciation changes over the centuries, the original Wendish term in most cases is not preserved. Also, some placenames combine a German with a Wendish term (e.g. Altentreptow). The German suffix -au can be related to the Slavic -ow and -ov when derived from the Old German spelling (u= w =double u; e.g. Prenzlau was earlier spelled Prenzlow).

dublin · 27.11.2012. u 13:40

da pogledamo malo svedsku i sever danske

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendsyssel

Vendsyssel is the northernmost traditional district of Denmark and of Jutland.

Adam of Bremen (ca. 1075) calls Vendsyssel Wendila, Ælnoth (ca. 1100) calls it Wendel, the Icelandic literature Vendill. Derived from this is the ethnic name wændlar, Danish vendelboer, which is part of the name of the syssel. In the Danish Census Book (Kong Valdemars Jordebog, ca. 1231) Wændlesysæl, Wendelsysel, Wændil. Presumably originally the name of the Limfjord, then name of the region north of it. According to historians and linguists,[who?] the name Vendsyssel may be derived from the Germanic tribe of the Vandals. Syssel is an ancient form of administrative region. Vendel (Old Danish Wændil) was also the ancient name of the Limfjord itself.

kaze ime potice od vandala. interesantno je da germanski istoricari iz ranog srednjeg veka, kad govore o baltickim slovenima koriste naziv "vandali". dakle ovi vandali su verovatno sloveni vendi.

pa onda ovo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel

evo zasto je vendel vazan:

Vendel has given its name to a period (the Vendel Age) in the Scandinavian Iron Age, and to the corresponding style in Art (the Vendel Style). It has often been suggested that the Germanic Vandals, or at least their kings or rulers, were connected to the site. In this it is coupled with the name of a companion site at Valsgärde in the same region. The close comparisons with the 27 metre ship burial at Sutton Hoo show a direct connection between the armourers producing work found at the two sites, a connection central to the understanding of both. The Sutton Hoo burial is often associated with King Raedwald of East Anglia, (ruled c 599-624), who in his later reign (c 616-624) was most powerful among the rulers of the English kingdoms.

nordijsko bronzano doba i luzicka kultura su toliko slicne da je verovatno da je nordijsko bronzano doba samo produzetak luzicke kulture, iako na zapadu vole da kazu da je obrnuto. ali na viki strani o o nordijskom bronzanom dobu se kaze:

Even though Scandinavians joined the European Bronze Age cultures fairly late through trade, Scandinavian sites present rich and well-preserved objects made of wool, wood and imported Central European bronze and gold.

ako znamo da je bronza dosla u skandinaviju sa balkana preko centralne evrope i juznog baltika onda je verovatno i gvozdje sledilo istu rutu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohthere

Ohthere (also Ohtere), Old Norse Óttarr vendilkráka (Vendelcrow; in Modern Swedish Ottar Vendelkråka) is a semi-legendary king of Sweden of the house of Scylfings who would have lived during the 6th century (fl. c. 515 – c. 530[1]). His name can be reconstructed as Proto-Norse *Ōhta-harjaz or *Ōhtu-harjaz. The harjaz element is common in Germanic names and has a meaning of "warrior, army" (whence English harry); by contrast, the oht element is less frequent, and has been tentatively interpreted as "fearsome, feared".

...

It is only Snorri who uses the epithet Vendelcrow, whereas the older sources Historia Norvegiae and Íslendingabók use it for his father Egill. Moreover, it is only in Snorri's work that story of Óttarr's death in Vendsyssel appears, and it is probably his own invention.[1] Ynglingatal only mentions that Óttarr was killed by the Danish jarls Vott and Faste in a place named Vendel (Laing has been influenced by Snorri's version in his translation):

dakle svedjanin koji je poginuo u danskom mestu Vendel...

Battlecat · 27.11.2012. u 14:18

Sloveni su kombinacija razlicitih naroda u kulturno-jezickom mixu. Njima srodni Germani imaju svoje kombinacije pupulacija i svoju lingisticko-kulturnu organizaciju dok se na spojevima preklapaju kao mix te dve. Uopste ne postoje nikakve Slovenske zemlje po Svedskoj i Danskoj. I sami Balti su specifican mix, drugaciji od ostalih regiona Evrope...

Vec smo pricali o ovome na GG.

Svedski :

gård

yard, farmyard, homestead, courtyard, court, enclosure

gårdsplan

courtyard, court, dooryard, forecourt, farmyard, ground

borg

castle

Znaci "borg" je sve kao utvrdjeno, baza i tvrdjava, dok je gard sve sto je unutra i tice se dvora i necega gde se zivi boravi, gde boravi i zivi vladar, institucije i slicno, a tako je i po ostalim germanskim jezicima. ne razumem kakve su ti ovo ideje o nekom slovenskom poretku i slicno. I da je nesto slicno neke reci, one dolaze iz staro-evropskog nekog, pre Germana i Slovena ( odnosno pre formiranja ).

Slusao sam takve price i za Indiju pa se pokazalo kao glupost kako je odmah i izgledalo...

dublin · 27.11.2012. u 14:38

Svedski :

gård

yard, farmyard, homestead, courtyard, court, enclosure

gårdsplan

courtyard, court, dooryard, forecourt, farmyard, ground

borg

castle

ni jedna od ovih reci se koristi za utvrdjeni grad od strane bilo koga osim slovena. ako je tvoj argument da sloveni ustvari ne postoje vec da su to delom germani onda sa tobom vise nemam sta da pricam. jer je istina ustvari obrnuta. al ti ocigledno to neces da vidis cak i kad to nemci vide. ti si izgleda veci germanin od nemaca...

ne razumem kakve su ti ovo ideje o nekom slovenskom poretku i slicno

ne znam o cemu pricas. kakav slovenski poredak. ja pricam o teritorijama koje su nekad potpuno ili delimicno naseljavali sloveni.

a odgovorio sam ovde na vase komentare jer nisam hteo da dodajem komentare koji se ne ticu direktno genetike na GG.

gost 305033 · 27.11.2012. u 19:29

Mislima da slov. reči grad, ograda, ograditi, izgraditi i eng "guard" imaju isto poreklo i da iza njih stoji misao o podizanju nekakve zaštite

mid-zea · 27.11.2012. u 22:48

"yard, farmyard, homestead, courtyard, court, enclosure
"
Meni je interesantno ovo pozivanje na engleski pre nego se objasni etimologija "njihove" reči "meat" ili naziva reka (dosta rasprostranjenog) Potomak.

Bastiani · 27.11.2012. u 23:38

Potomak, naziv reke, indijanska reč.

mid-zea · 28.11.2012. u 00:09

Bastiani:
Potomak, naziv reke, indijanska reč.

To su sigurno oni indijanci hrvatskog porekla :hahaha:

Sada ozbiljno: istoimene reke se nalaze i na Britanskom ostrvu. Tamo, koliko ja znam nije bilo Indijanaca

svarozic · 28.11.2012. u 09:26

tema k'o da ju je deda Jovo otvorio...

P.S.
Samo da umjesto slovenski metneš srpski (ali to mu je isto)...

svarozic · 28.11.2012. u 09:27

mid-zea:
To su sigurno oni indijanci hrvatskog porekla
Sada ozbiljno: istoimene reke se nalaze i na Britanskom ostrvu. Tamo, koliko ja znam nije bilo Indijanaca

To je sigurno prenio onaj junak iz Ljubuškog sa indijanskom haplogrupom...

dublin · 28.11.2012. u 14:16

Mislima da slov. reči grad, ograda, ograditi, izgraditi i eng "guard" imaju isto poreklo i da iza njih stoji misao o podizanju nekakve zaštite

u pravu si. ali originalno sanskrit znacenje je naselje i jedino su ga sloveni sacuvali. sto znaci da je u germanskim jezicima to samo pozajmica iz slovenskog.

takodje u slovenskim jezicima imamo ceo set imenica, glagola i prideva koji imaju grad, gard, gord, hrad kao koren:

grad, gradnja, graditi, ograditi..., gradjanin, predgradje, graditelj, podgradje, prigradje, gradina,...

u germanskim jezicima to ne postoji,

FORMICA · 29.11.2012. u 11:07

neznam što se izbjegavaju sportisti? Poznato je da je obrambeni stav u boksu gard i sigurno je od tog naziva grad postao grad samo su se prmijenila mjesta dva slova, a kakvi stari sloveni i germani i tandare i mandare. Poznata je popularnost ovog sporta u najdaljoj prošlosti, tad se zavo šaketanje, ali je gard uvijek gard riječ poznata u svim jezicima svijeta u potpuno istom obliku i značenju .

Bokserima svaka čast pravi su vitezovi (ovo stvarno mislim)

gost 305033 · 02.12.2012. u 18:52

Misterija rešena, koren reči je indoevropska reč "ghordhos" što je na engleskom "enclosure" što znači - ograda, ograđeno zemljište, ograđivanje, opkoljavanje. A po meni iz tog korena najverovatnije potiče i naša reč "gordost"

dublin · 02.12.2012. u 19:36

Misterija rešena, koren reči je indoevropska reč "ghordhos" što je na engleskom "enclosure" što znači - ograda, ograđeno zemljište, ograđivanje, opkoljavanje. A po meni iz tog korena najverovatnije potiče i naša reč "gordost"

nikad nije bilo misterije. zna se odakle potice rec i sta znaci. ono sto sam hteo da kazem je da su u ranom srednjem veku jedino sloveni koristili ovu rec da obeleze grad, utvrdjeno naselje sto znaci da su svi rano srednjovekovni gradovi slovenske naseobine.

dublin · 06.12.2012. u 16:17

nedavno sam naleteo na jako interesantne podatke o slovenskim kucama u severozapadnoj evropi.

ono sto ovi podatci pokazuju je da su potpuno iste kuce gradjene u centralnoj evropi od 6000 pne do kasnog srednjeg veka, i da su nosioci ove kulture u srednjem veku sloveni. takodje ove kuce su prisutne ne samo u centralnoj evropi vec i u svim zemljama gde su zabelezene vikingske naseobine: baltik, britanska ostrva, island newfoundland. ove kuce su jako karakteristicne i izdvajaju se od ostalih kuca pravljenih u evropi u to vreme.

mislim da je ovo jako vazno i takodje suvise veliko da bih se ja sam sa tim bavio. voleo bih da zamolim sve ljude ovde da mi pomognu da dodjem do sto vise podataka o ovim kucama kako bi smo bolje razumeli o cemu se ovde radi.

postoje dve vrste kuca:

prva vrsta povezuje linear ware kulturu i slovene ("kuca sa ukopanom peci")

These so called bread ovens are known from a number of sites in central Europe that are dated from the 7th-12th centuries (Skružny 1963, 1980 ; Vignatiová 1992). A find of this type is usually represented by a hole sunk into a loess soil with the highest vaulting of 40-60 cm, red-burnt walls of 5-10 cm and a grey-burnt bottom, sometimes stone-lined.

3The bottom ground plan is usually of renal, semi-circular up to round shape, east-west oriented.

4From later periods (13 th century) it is documented that slightly modified ovens with an underground heating duct can serve for food-smoking (Skružny 1980). Archaeological finds of bread ovens are usually excavated on the margin of a settled area outside of the houses (Skružny, Vignatiová 1992, p. 90) or they are sunk into the wall of a dwelling (e.g. Breclav-Pohansko : Vignatiová 1992, fig. 3). The ovens outside the dwellings and the site area are known from Neolithic sites in Slovakia : in Pác near Trnava (Kolník 1977) or in Horné Lefantovce (Bánesz 1962). These finds were recently enriched by a new exceptional site where ovens from 11 th-12 th century were excavated in the vicinity (ca. 150 m) of the similar ones from the Late Stone Age (6 th millenium B.C.) belonging to the Linear-Pottery culture people. These ovens were revealed in Borovce, distr. of Piest’any, Slovakia, and the finds have not been published yet. The particular situation of Borovce has offered a chance to compare these finds, similar in types but different in history as well as in culture.

http://civilisations.revues.org/1799

mislim da ovo dokazuje "Ako su rusi u pravu, sa njima Klyosov, R1a je setao po sumama centralne Evrope. 6000 godina pre nove ere" kao i da su R1a nosioci (indoevropske) slovenske kulture

druga vrska kuce povezuje luzicku kulturu, nordijsko gvozdeno doba i slovene ("kuca sa kamenom peci u cosku")

ova kuca je i jedan je od dokaza da su sloveni bili deo vikinskih invazionih formacija i kolonija. ova kuca se identifikuje kao vikinska kuca tipa 4 i nadjena je i u dablinu.

ova kuca se inace kod nas zove zemunica,

http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/118596

ja cu ovde u sledecih nekoliko dana postaviti sve sto sam do sad nasao o ovim kucama. dacu takodje i fraze koje treba koristiti (razni ljudi su im davali razna imena) da bi nasli dokumenta o ovim kucama.

ono sto bi ja voleo da ovde utvrdimo je:

1. tacno kad i gde su se pojavile ove kuce i kako su se sirile.
2. sva mesta gde su nadjene ove kuce i u koje vreme.
3. da li postoji jos nesto (osim oblika kuce i karakteristicne peci) sto zajednicko za sva arheoloska nalazista a sto bi potvrdilo slovenski karakter ljudi koji su ove kuce pravili.

da bi znali ko o cemu govori, predlazem da prvu vrstu kuca zovemo "kuca sa ukopanom peci" a drugu "kuca sa kamenom peci u cosku"

dublin · 06.12.2012. u 17:58

dakle koje fraze mozete da koristite da bi nasli jos podataka o ovim kucama:

pit house, pithouse, pit-house, sunken house, semi sunken house, semi-sunken hut, semi subterranean pit house, viking house type 4, Grubenhaus, stone oven, hearth, bread oven, kamena pec, zemunica. posebno bi bilo interesantno naci da li postoje slicne kuce u periodu 6000 pne 1000 pne na balkanu.

za kucu sa ukopanom peci nisam suguran. nasao sam dosta opisa kuca sa pecima iz starceva. trenutno to gledam. nisam siguran.

na primer ovo:

bosna mladji neolit:

U samo 2 naselja butmirske grupe ustanovljen je zamunicki tip kuca: Butmir i Nebo,alito je bilo konstantovano samo u pocetnoj fazi zivota u tim naseljima. Sa iskopavanja uButmiru otkriveno je oko 90 jama,koje mnoge pripadaju zemunicama.U naselju Nebootkopana je samo jedna velika zemunicka nastamba koja se sastojala od 2 prostrane jame,iznad kojih se pruzao zajednicki dvoslivni krov. Izvana je gradjevina bilacetvrtasta,a unutra se satojala od 2 zemunicke jame. Smatra se i to da je ovo neolitskonaselje bilo
kruznog tipa
.Nacin gradjenja svih zemunica bio je istovjetan. Gornjizemunicki zid bio je izgradjen od drvenog pletera i onda obljepljen debelim slojemilovace. Isto tako,zemunicka jama mogla je biti natkrivena samo nekim slozastimkrovom,mogla je imati niske vanjske zidove i slicno. U izvjesnom broju zamunickih jama u Butmiru bilo je konstantovano unutarnje kucno ognjiste,a nekad i vanjskoognjiste. Pripadnici butmirske grupe gradili su i kuce na povrsini zemlje. Ostatkeovakvog tipa kuca imamo u Nebu i u Obrima II. Podnica jedne ovakve kuce,iz naselja Nebo,bila je izgradjivana od debele naslage ilovace i ovalnog je oblika. Najznacajnije podatke o nadzemnim kucama dala su istrazivanja u naselju Obre II. Na ovomlokalitetu zateceni su ostaci 3 razvojne faze,sa po nekoliko stambenih horizonata. Prvafaza se sastojala od dva stambena horizonta,sa po 4 kuce-dva stambena horizonta sa 5ili 4 stambena objekta.Karakteristike tih kuca:1)sve kuce su cetvrtastog oblika
2)
konstrukcija: glavni nosaci-drveni stubovi bili su ukopani u dosta duboke jame iucvrsceni kamenim oblicima.Zidovi horizontalnog i vertiklanog prepleta;debljina od 15 do 40 cm. Krov je bio izgradjen od debelog slamnog pokrova.3)dvodjelne kuce odrzavaju dosta visoku stambenu kulturu. Glavna prostorijaimala je veliku kalotnu pec za kuhanje,pecenje i grijanje;pored patosa za sjednjei spavanje. Oko patosa bile su poredane posude za vodu i hranu i sl.4)kuce su bile podignute u redovima,sa prolazima od 2 do 3 m izmedju njih; tetrg za zajednicke potrebe

sta je kalotna pec? ima li neko sliku.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/79336865/Neolit-Na-Podrucju-BiH

ja mislim da "kuca sa kamenom peci u cosku" ne postoji na balkanu do ranog srednjeg veka. po podacima koje sam ja nasao moze da se prati silazak ovih kuca od 4 veka niz karpate. u rumuniju stizu u 5 i 6 veku i vezuju se za dolazak slovena (verovatno nasi juzni sloveni silaze sa baltika). da li ovih kuca ima na balkanu pre 6 i 7 veka? da li ih ima posle i gde. ove kuce identifikuju severne slovene.

evo ovde istocno od karpata mures 5 vek

Between Huns and Avars (c. 420–c. 600)
Main articles: Antes people and Sclavenes
See also: Early Slavs and Korchak culture

The Avar Khaganate, Bulgaria, and the neighboring Slavic tribes at the end of the 7th century

"Slav fibula"
All featuring objects of the "Sântana de Mureş-Chernyakhov culture", including fine wares, and weapons, disappeared between 375 and 430.[139] Botoşana, Dodeşti, and other sites east of the Carpathians demonstrate both the simplification of pottery forms and an eclipse in the use of the fast potter's wheel from the 450s.[140] Around the same time semi-sunken huts with a stone or clay oven appeared in Moldavia and Wallachia,[141][142][143] forming ephemeral settlements with an area less than 5 hectares (12 acres).[144]

Villages of sunken huts with stone ovens[143] appeared in Transylvania around 600.[190][191][192] Their network was expanding along the rivers Mureş, Olt and Someş.[190][191] The so-called "Mediaş group" of cremation or mixed cemeteries emerged in this period in the vicinity of salt mines.[193] Both the Hungarian and the Romanian vocabulary of salt mining was taken from Slavic, suggesting that Slavs were employed in the mines for a longer period.[194][195] Bistriţa ("swift"), Crasna ("nice" or "red"), Sibiu ("dogwood"), and many other rivers and settlements with names of Slavic origin also prove the one-time presence of Slavs in Transylvania.[196][197]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_in_the_Early_Middle_Ages

evo ovde crno more 8 i 9 vek

http://books.google.ie/books?id=Y8Y-3zVnvbEC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=semi-sunken+huts+with+a+stone+oven&source=bl&ots=9bKPYRBMg_&sig=_1qZwqgzNskwCSYTtn2CD_5aL1c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z2a6UNaPNNCBhQehnoDQAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=semi-sunken%20huts%20with%20a%20stone%20oven&f=false

dublin · 06.12.2012. u 22:19

Early Slavic settlements were no larger than 0.5 to 2 hectares. Settlements were often temporary, perhaps a reflection of the itinerant form agriculture they practiced.[100] Settlements were often located on river terraces. The largest proportion of settlement features were the sunken buildings, called Grubenhäuser in German, or poluzemlianki in Russian. They were erected over a rectangular pit and varied from four to twenty square meters of floor area, which could accommodate a typical nuclear family. Each house contained a stone or clay oven in one of the corners, a defining feature of the dwellings throughout Eastern Europe. On average, each settlement consisted of fifty to seventy individuals.[101] Settlements were structured in specific manner; there was a central, open area which served as a "communal front" where communal activities and ceremonies were conducted. The settlement was polarized, divided into a production zone and settlement zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

pogledajte kako se ovo poklapa sa opisom naselja u butmiru iz neolita koje sam vec gore postavio:

kuce su bile podignute u redovima,sa prolazima od 2 do 3 m izmedju njih; tetrg za zajednicke potrebe

dublin · 06.12.2012. u 22:37

In Poland the earliest archeological sites considered Slavic include a limited number of 6th century settlements and a few isolated burial sites. The material obtained there consists mostly of simple, manually formed ceramics, typical of the entire early Slavic area. It is because of the different varieties of these basic clay pots and infrequent decorations that the three cultures are distinguished.[24] The largest of the earliest Slavic (Prague culture) settlement sites in Poland that have been subjected to systematic research is located in Bachórz, Rzeszów County and dated the second half of 5th through 7th centuries. It consisted of 12 nearly square, partially dug out houses, each covering the area of 6.2 to 19.8 (14.0 on the average) square meters. A stone furnace was usually placed in a corner, which is typical for Slavic homesteads of that period, but clay ovens and centrally located hearths are also found.[12] 45 younger, different type dwellings (7/8th to 9/10th century) have also been discovered in the vicinity.[25][26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_the_Early_Middle_Ages

dublin · 06.12.2012. u 22:44

By using early manifestations of pottery of the Slavic Korchak culture, named for a region in Ukraine where it was first identified, and of the small, sunken-floored dwellings that are typical of Slavs, four important movements of early Slavs have been identified: first, along the east flank of the Carpathian Mountains toward the Danube plain and the Balkans; second, along the north flank of the western Carpathians through southern Poland; third, along the southern flank of the western Carpathians toward the Middle Danube and the Elbe; and fourth, eastward in Ukraine. These movements, perhaps emanating from two separate centers, one in Ukraine and the other along the Danube, or possibly all from Ukraine, are too little understood to resolve fully the question of the original Slavic homeland.

http://www.fofweb.com/History/HistRefMain.asp?iPin=EEPII0195&SID=2&DatabaseName=Ancient+and+Medieval+History+Online&InputText=%22Franks%22&SearchStyle=&dTitle=Slavs&TabRecordType=All+Records&BioCountPass=65&SubCountPass=252&DocCountPass=8&ImgCountPass=2&MapCountPass=7&FedCountPass=&MedCountPass=9&NewsCountPass=0&RecPosition=41&AmericanData=&WomenData=&AFHCData=&IndianData=&WorldData=&AncientData=Set&GovernmentData=

dublin · 07.12.2012. u 00:14

evo kako je izgledala jedna od ovih kuca iznutra

The advocates of the autochthonous theory see more similarities between the early Slavic and Przeworsk culture huts than between the Slavic and Germanic structures. Namely, except for a few cases (e.g., Wólka Łasiecka), the Slavs had no tradition of the long house so popular among the Germans, commonly appearing in the area between the Rhine and Elbe and in Scandinavia. Thus if the population inhabiting the Polish lands before the Slavs was of Germanic origin, how can it be explained that it did not build houses following the tradition of the latter? It is worth noting here that the Przeworsk culture had an incomparably greater variety of structures than the early Slavs. The analyses of the arrangement of buildings in Slavic settlements shows that, unlike the Roman ones, they were not arranged in a circle surrounding an empty central area and had no separate production zones. In this respect the arrangements of houses in the Slavic settlements resemble the later peasant farmsteads commonly known from Polish lands. The huts and settlement patterns were gradually replaced by above-ground buildings in the 7th or early 8th century. The followers of the autochthonous theory, however, add that circular villages were not entirely unknown among the Slavic population as there is a group of sites (e.g., Biskupin, Dessau-Mossigkau) where such settlements were identified and excavated.

http://mitchtempparch.blogspot.ie/2012/08/early-medieval-poland-one-or-many.html

dublin · 07.12.2012. u 00:18

The women’s ornaments that characterize the culture of Smolensk long
barrows reflect the influence of southern examples from the Carpathian-Danubian region and the middle Dnieper. These ornaments are well represented at the
Zemljanoe Gorodišče of the second half of the 8
th
– first half of the 9
th
century in
Staraja Ladoga. The relation of the culture of Smolensk long barrows and these
women’s ornaments to the Kriviči of the chronicles (who were most probably a
mixed Baltic and Slavic, later Slavicized, groups) is indisputable (Mačinskij &
Mačinskaja 1988). The existence of these women’s ornaments as well as small
houses built above ground with an oven in a corner, suggests the initial thriving
of the Slavic component of the inhabitants of Staraja Ladoga

http://www.helsinki.fi/venaja/nwrussia/eng/Conference/pdf/Jushkova.pdf

dublin · 07.12.2012. u 00:24

evo ovde varijacija iznad zemlje znaci nije zemunica ali sa istom kamenom peci u cosku

n written reports of historians, Slavic tribes appear in Central Europe since the 5th century AD. The conventional distinguishing feature of Slavs on our territory is the specific hand-shaped pottery of so-called Prague or Prešov type.
Most of the Slavic population lived in half-sunken square floor plan log cabins (dimensions were 2×2 metres, maximum 4×4 metres), covered with straw or reed. Walls were of a pale or rustic construction. The entrance was situated on the south. An arched oven made of quarry stone was usually situated in the north west corner, benches stood by the walls. Collocated diagonally against the oven, there was the so-called holy corner with idols. Roofs were of a saddle construction with a transverse inclination and with a roof ridge. This type of one-room dwelling, which was entirely above the ground and not half-sunken as before, was present on our territory until the end of the Middle Ages.

http://www.slovakia.culturalprofiles.net/?id=-13390

kod polabskih slovena i u pomeraniji kamena pec je zamenjena glinenom i neki put je i nema.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=kfv6HKXErqAC&pg=PA751&lpg=PA751&dq=slavic+stone+oven+usually+in+north+western+corner&source=bl&ots=_x-FMbyX4E&sig=7hDyMvR3Jh7Agwrg3QkEDoDBDA8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cSjBUJysKI-YhQejgoHoDg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=slavic%20stone%20oven%20usually%20in%20north%20western%20corner&f=false

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